Convince me

>>31820157

Laser Musket

>>31820234
Just as the enclave intended

>>31820157
5.56 for sure. Remember, 7.62 is a war caliber, where you are fighting in a squad and can be resupplied.

If you are a minuteman, you can only count on what you can carry, or have with you. You will have no humvee to carry your extra gear, nor will anyone be coming to resupply your heavy ass ammo.

File: FB_IMG_1477192648212.jpg (39KB, 768x545px) Image search: [Google]

39KB, 768x545px

>>31820257
That actually makes perfect sense
Unless anybody has a reasonable counterpoint that could be it then

If you're a burger then most other burgers (friendly or hostile) are going to have 556.

Youre a nuclear nation, you are not going to be fighting russian or chinese invaders.

Not that a civil war scenario is at all likely, but at least its a conceivable if very remote possibility.

5.56 is logistically better.
7.62 is pretty specialised, so unless you have a really good reason don't bother with it.

But realistically, just think about what you'd actually be doing in a war. Personally I'm an engineer and I'd probably be more useful as an engineer than as a rifleman, so a handgun is more important.

>>31820271
762 is better. Punch through both thick brush innawoods and concrete in urban areas. Longer range with 762. You aren't shooting high volumes and if you are, you are boned. Precise, repeatable shots and further distances is more useful. You can take the 7.62 for hunting where as some for game 223 ain't enough. Focus on being a rifleman.

>>31820157

...I don't know, you left out the most important variable.

Are you a man or a bitch?

>>31820157
>>31820157
oh god .... that shit job of cutting the foam ... no one inch gap to ensure proper seal ... marker all over the foam ... cuts all uneven... all of my why

>>31820157
>>31820271
If you're planning to act as a minuteman in America, chances are the geography of your area is going to lend itself better to long distance engagements. Here's why:

You're going to want to practice asymetric warfare. You will never beat the enemy by fighting their own game. The original minuteman knew this and hid in the woods while the redcoats marched in formation. The redcoat officers were told that American militia were able to consistently hit officers 300 yards, and they had to switch their tactics. So don't try to fight the enemy with normal force, it doesn't work when you have 1% of the funding.

Your enemies are most likely going to be carrying 5.56 NATO because it's the standard for the vast majority of military carbines. This means that their MAX effective range is 400 yards. If you stay 400-500 yards from your target with a battle rifle, and you trained properly to be able to consistently hit center mass of any target out to 600 yards, you will be a huge threat to a group of enemy combatants. This is especially true if there are two or three of you. Three trained riflemen working in tandem with battle rifles are way more of a threat than a group of 20 men with full auto carbines.

Remember, the vast majority of soldiers are absolute shit marksmen. Past 300 yards most can't hit a 2 ft steal target to save their lives.

>“May your enemies always be on full auto.” – Jeff Cooper

Hope this helps. I hope you're serious about this, because it's always great to see someone else interested in carrying on an American tradition.

File: tumblr_odknfqvGBA1upbk6jo1_1280.jpg (53KB, 640x640px) Image search: [Google]

53KB, 640x640px

>>31820418
>logistically better
depends on what your logistics is

>>31820157
Its a tool in a tool box. Figure out what the purpose is. I went for both.

OPs pic is retarded.

Firstly, the Hungarians had guns during their attempted revolution.

Secondly, Hungary and Czechoslovakia had armies.

Thirdly, Hungary still exists, and Czechoslovakia simply became separate republics of Czech and Slovakia, which they already were under Czechoslovakia.

Also, the "free world" willingly chose to ignore pleas for assistance. Especially ironic is that during the Prague Spring, America didn't want to intervene because America was working on a treaty to limit the supply of weapons.

>>31820569
>I went for both.
This

>>31820528
Enjoy getting raped by a drone with thermal vision.
Innacity is where its at.

>>31820643

You think that drones don't work in cities? Tell that to the Syrians, the Afghanis, the Yemenis, and the Sudanese.

In modern times, you should REALLY avoid fighting in urban/suburban environments. 5.56 is great for this setting, because of the short distance of most engagements. But, this is where a modern military will have the upper hand. They have better funding, so probably better carbines. Most modern battles in the middle east are in urban settings, so they have trained for this more. They have hand grenades, which work really well indoors. In suburban environments, they have tanks. Ka-blamso, and the house you were just using as cover is rubble. They have full auto .50 machine guns, which tear through cover and can cripple you without even hitting you.

Modern militaries are made for urban fighting. DON’T FIGHT ON THEIR HOME TURF! Fight in the fields, the mountains, and the forests. The militaries will be completely outclassed by outdoorsmen and riflemen with battle rifles (especially if you know the area).

Illiterate farmers with soviet rifles were able to hold their own with the American military in Afghanistan when they retreated into the mountains.

>>31820157
American police and military use 5.56, so you should too, in case you ever get the chance to pick up some of the shit they drop.

>>31820157
that image gave me an aneurysm

File: image:33398.png (45KB, 200x200px) Image search: [Google]

45KB, 200x200px

>>31820157
>all they could do
>is throw rocks and bottles
>mfw this could happen again very soon

>>31820786
If you drop one of them, you could just take one of their guns...

>>31820480

saved

File: 1463029473614.jpg (18KB, 201x240px) Image search: [Google]

18KB, 201x240px

>>31820528

You sir, are a moron.

File: 1473194933096.jpg (60KB, 567x565px) Image search: [Google]

60KB, 567x565px

>>31821997

>>31820157
I bought 5.56 for when Drumpf loses and the white trash chimps out

Will have a pretty good time picking off teabagging tarpfags, klansters and stormfags from the comfort of my roof

And when the army rolls in and exterminates the pasty cross burning neonazi cousin fuckers I will just fade away

>>31821997
Care to back up that claim, faggot?

>>31822063
No, they'll probably curbstomp your shitskinned ass too.
You think the cops hate black people? You should see what the army does to brown people.

>>31820157
5.56
>can carry more
>easy to restock on
>decent price
>nice practical accuracy
>lighter rifle
>less recoil
7.62x51
>muh penetration
>muh stopping power
>heavier rifles
>less ammo that you can carry
>costs more to train with
>good to 1000m
>accurate

>>31822063
>thinking the army is pro color people

>>31822088
>mfw I just realized he wasn't referring to 7.62x39
I am of the disgrace

>>31820157
>chechoslovakia

>checho

>>31820528
This

I went with 7.62, do not regret it one but.

>>31822088
>good to 1000m
The proportion of /k/ that has experience shooting at 1000m is probably <2%

>>31822456
The number of people on k with guns is 60%

>>31820885
This. I've always imagined that I could just commandeer weapons from the dead and seriously wounded.

>>31822063
>comfort of my roof
>my roof
That roof belongs to the roof koreans and you'll lose trying to take it from them

>>31820705
not him, but wouldn´t drones also wreck you innawoods?

>>31822416
>checho
My next doggos name

>>31820528
They're all carrying 5.56, so that actually helps if you're carrying 5.56
After action resupply

>>31822555
dense foliage would cover you, also i guess some crazy smartass would have already created some sort of thermal camo from a rag and some other stuff and place them like a camo net

also the gov't or whoever will be sending their drones won't have enough of these things to cover the whole population of the USA, if this was already the case Dindu & Associates wouldn't be stealing bikes anymore

>>31820157
Czechoslovakia conducted a peaceful dissolution into the Czech Republic and Slovakia on 1 January 1993. The right to bear arms has nothing to do with it. That pic is nonsensical. In fact you could argue the former status quo was an anomaly imposed on the people due to end of WW1 treaties and the balance of power of the region.

>>31822555
Yes, they can. The point is that being in a city doesn't change the situation in regards to drones.

The earlier poster made it sound like being in a city somehow made you safe from drones. It doesn't, which is why I mentioned all of the countries who's cities are being bombed to hell with drones.

>>31820643
By the time drones are in play, you either have won politically and/or your side already had its own drones/air craft in play.

Minuteman will only be engaging police (local, state and swat), mercenaries, and at most national guard (and they won't be using their military assets in an offensive role at first). If they have drones out they are at most just locating you and relaying your location to forces on the ground, not engaging you.

The thing is using tanks/jets/drones/attack helos against your own civilian populace will cause at *least* massive non compliance and at worst mass desertion (with that military equipment). Worse you are recognizing your opponent internationally as a threat which will bring foreign aid to them.

>>31820157
Because in the most likely scenario, you won't be able to resupply on your own, I would recommend picking 5.56 as you primary weapons chambering. I would recommend having your side arm (should you choose to have one) be in whatever your state police uses. 5.56 is lighter than 7.62 (so you can carry more to start with) and if you have to restock, I think you are far more likely to run across that than 7.62.

Also as mentioned earlier, research and practice guerilla tactics. You are not going to want to stick around for a fight.

>>31820528
Really if you've got an accurate .223 bolt rifle or HBAR you can easily beat that 400yd figure over the head. That's with light 55gr bullets too.
If you're using 77gr vlds out of the right bolt rifle you can make some unbelievable hits, 1000yd isn't out of the question.

>>31822801
Its objectively easier to hide from any sort of thermal detection in a city. Can't really hide from bombs but you can hide from sight.

>>31822088
Points out the importance on having a team of members with complementing capabilities when SHTF. At least a team of two, because if your SWMBO is not trained, she's a dead weight.

>>31822969
>will cause at *least* massive non compliance
Regretfully, I don't think so. With Democrats ruling the country for this long, more and more people have slid into complacence and will be just sitting watching TVs and liking FB posts about a few dying.

>>31820157
Get both, learn to shoot both.

>>31823059
Even with a standard carbine or longer can easily hit center body at 600yd

>>31820528
>consistently hit officers 300 yards
With a long rifle, and practice, this is possible. But certainly not for your average militiaman armed with a musket (sub 100yds against a single mansized target).

>>31820157
This is pretty cringeworthy.

>>31820157
5.56 semi auto, 7.62 bolt action

Stop thinking that you can have a "one size fits all" rifle. Different tools for different jobs.

>>31823146
Those enlisted in the military primarily come from conservative families/backgrounds and the most likely source of an armed rebellion is a conservative one. Even if they are not from a conservative background, many will see issues with bombing fellow Americans (at least at first). I would not counting on mass desertion, I would count on foreign aid to the rebels and foreign pressure on the sitting government (how long till some comes to liberate us from our own tyrannical government).

I have no illusions that those who first go against real military assets are going to live long. But as we have learned when fighting an insurgency, those killed by an overwhelming force have a tendency to become martyrs and do not over estimate the effect of foreign aid.

>>31823283
I'm afraid any kind of foreign aid will come only from those wishing to destroy US, not from those wishing to help it. I can easily see it coming from China and Middle East oil empires. Russia would pretty much like to help, but they've been sucked dry and are now out of big ticket game - all they can do is asymmetrical pinprick attacks that don't consume a lot of financing (such as cyberattacks).

>>31823253
Why not a 7.62 semi-auto?

>>31823370
Because 5.56 will be superior at short-to-medium range while bolt action will be superior at long range.

7.62 semi-auto is pretty much a jack of all trades, master of none.

>>31820157
>Hungary 1956
>all they could do was throw rocks and bottles

>>31823059
Sure, you can punch holes in paper from 600 yards with a bolt action .223. You're not going to kill much though. Especially if they have armor.

At 500 yards, the .223 out of a 24" barrel has around 200 foot pounds of force [1]. For comparison, at the muzzle the .45 ACP has about 500 foot pounds of energy [2] and .308 has about 1700 foot pounds at 500 yards out of a 24" barrel [3].

You can stop a .223 at 500 yards with level II armor. You shout bet on your enemies having at least level III.

[1] http://guide.sportsmansguide.com/ballistic-chart/remington_charts/223rembal.htm
[2] http://www.ballistics101.com/45_acp.php
[3] http://guide.sportsmansguide.com/ballistic-chart/remington_charts/308wibal.htm

>>31823082

And how long are you willing to stay indoors? Plus, as I mentioned in my earlier post, if your enemy is a modern military, they will have every advantage over you when it comes to urban warfare. Western armies have been fighting in urban conditions for the last 20+ years and will be better trained than you.

Again, do not fight them on their home turf.

>>31823349
Any 2nd American civil war will destroy this country. Every bridge/tunnel/power substation/power generation facility/factory destroyed will cause massive long term damage to the US economy (we are still feeling the ripples of the first civil war 150 yrs later). Not every rebel group will show restraint and there will be riots as staples of modern society disappear (you think a black guy be shot causes a bad riot wait till there is no power in a city for a month).

I am not too worried about China wanting to destroy the US economy (we are their largest economic partner and they would definitely feel the loss from the lack of US food export). Russia has stockpiles of weapons that they would sell/loan out like mad for the infusion of capital into their government/economy.

>>31820705
Lol. Our military hates city fights. Out in the rural areas you can just drop a 500lb bomb from above on whoever is bothering you without worry about collateral damage. Mechanized mobility warfare that the military loves appreciates being in an outdoors, rural environment instead of cloistered among buildings. They would just run down people in a rural setting, you aren't outrunning a tank and it can see you with its optics long before you can see it.

Basically, you're wrong.

>>31823524
>Russia has stockpiles of weapons that they would sell/loan out like mad
That part I forgot about, you're absolutely right.

>for the infusion of capital into their government/economy
that part I'm not worried much about - they'll have to sell it for cheap, everybody knows now Russia's fucked. But the volume of arms will be substantial.

An interesting twist here, though - you can see for yourself that the offspring of Russian financial elite has been firmly planted onto European and American soil, and the oligarchs themselves try to GTFO of Russia before it collapses, so there'll be an interesting power struggle between those that can't get out of Russia (ruling elite, FSB and suchlike) and those who already did.

Back to the topic - when I was choosing my long rifle, I was advised that if I want to effectively stop people at 300 yards, I can't rely on 5.56 and 7.62 NATO is the only reliable choice. Quote, "I've been planting one 5.56 round after another into them, and they keep moving at you. You make a hit in the arm with 5.56, it comes through. You make a hit with 7.62, the arm falls off".

But I'll agree that having both and being trained in both is the best choice.

File: 1477532745980.png (151KB, 591x717px) Image search: [Google]

151KB, 591x717px

>>31823499
>being this much of a sperg but still being wrong

>>31823599
>Back to the topic - when I was choosing my long rifle, I was advised that if I want to effectively stop people at 300 yards, I can't rely on 5.56 and 7.62 NATO is the only reliable choice. Quote, "I've been planting one 5.56 round after another into them, and they keep moving at you. You make a hit in the arm with 5.56, it comes through. You make a hit with 7.62, the arm falls off".
>taking fuddlore for advice

You know civilians aren't limited to using shitty ball ammo, right?

>>31823594
>you can just drop a 500lb bomb
They're expensive, and combined with operating cost of aircraft and ground support they're EXTREMELY expensive.

>Mechanized mobility warfare that the military loves appreciates being in an outdoors
Not all outdoors is equal.

In the forest, they're at disadvantage because it's easy to conceal, and easy to plant mines at predictable routes (and, with today's technology, they'd be difficult to detect).

In steppes, they're also vulnerable against portable anti-tank weapons carried by a more mobile team.

Side note, there's a lot of army manuals available online. Off the top of my head, I can remember seeing these (though others are plentiful, I'm sure):

Increasing small arms lethality in Afghanistan: Taking back the Infantry Half-Kilometer
CMC-22 Immediate Target Engagement Techniques
Combined Arms Operations in Urban Terrain
FM 3-06 Urban Operations
JP 3-06 Joint Urban Operations

>>31823146

> Liking posts about a few people dying

People were up in arms over Dallas PD using a bomb disposal robot to kill the guy that shot up the BLM/police rally. We still have people debating Waco. Popular culture still remembers Kent State.

If a US tank or plane fired on a building, people would sit up and take notice. People are no more tuned out now than they were 40 years ago.

>>31823599
>that part I'm not worried much about - they'll have to sell it for cheap, everybody knows now Russia's fucked. But the volume of arms will be substantial.
If you look historically 150 yrs ago at the first American civil war both sides sent agents go buy everything they could in Europe (for the South to arm themselves and the North to both arm themselves and keep arms from the south). Any future prolonged conflict could be the same way with both sides buying whatever they can, even if is to just keep the other side from having it (driving up the price).

>Back to the topic - when I was choosing my long rifle, I was advised that if I want to effectively stop people at 300 yards, I can't rely on 5.56 and 7.62 NATO is the only reliable choice. Quote, "I've been planting one 5.56 round after another into them, and they keep moving at you. You make a hit in the arm with 5.56, it comes through. You make a hit with 7.62, the arm falls off".
>But I'll agree that having both and being trained in both is the best choice.
It really is stupid to take on numbers alone. It will have to be small unit tactics and having a bunch of marksmen armed with 7.62 does sound sexy.

>>31823524
>we are still feeling the ripples of the first civil war 150 yrs later)
u wot

>>31823599
>You make a hit in the arm with 5.56, it comes through. You make a hit with 7.62, the arm falls off
Yeah, that definetly shows how insightful the person you were talking to was. Totally.

Did he also recommend a 1911 to go with it?

>>31820643

*places car window over foxhole*

hahaha where is your thermal vision nooooow sukka?!

>>31823680
>They're expensive, and combined with operating cost of aircraft and ground support they're EXTREMELY expensive.
They're really not. An airstrike will run the US govt $18k-30k, depending on munition choice. That's nothing to the federal beancounters, especially when it's already bought and paid for unlike overtime for hundreds of cops and national guard.

>In the forest, they're at disadvantage because it's easy to conceal,
Someone has never seen what thermal optics can do to that, particularly from overhead assets. Your "dense foliage" don't mean shit.

>In steppes, they're also vulnerable against portable anti-tank weapons carried by a more mobile team.
Yeah because so many people have those.

>Off the top of my head, I can remember seeing these
They wrote special manuals for those because we are so shitty at doing it. Pro-tip: that doesn't change the fact that urban operations suck. Look at Fallujah compared to losses during the push into Iraq, which was done on open ground.

>>31822483
the number of people on k with guns that fire them more than twice a year is <30%

>>31823701
>shows how insightful the person you were talking to was
I'd definitely take his word over yours.

>Did he also recommend a 1911 to go with it?
It's a bait, but I'll bite.

No, he doesn't like semiautos for inferior reliability in combat conditions and only allows them as backups. His primary is a five shooter revolver. But I wouldn't dare to imagine how many backups he's got, and how many of them he's carrying. See, his job was to kill people.

>>31823692
He's right. Just as East Germany, despite billions/trillions of euros put into it, still lags behind in development compared to West Germany.

In fact, examples like those are why South Korea doesn't just take over North Korea. The hit to the South Korean economy, even ignoring the wartime costs and damages, would be staggering just from all the expenses involved in deprogramming and modernizing the North.

>>31820528
max effective range of an m16 on a point target is 550 meters

File: images (1).jpg (4KB, 160x213px) Image search: [Google]

4KB, 160x213px

Omg you guys it's about the 5.56 vs 7.62 not geopolitics and shtf bullshit.
7.62 is the only choice anon.

File: 1476503406047.jpg (24KB, 508x493px) Image search: [Google]

24KB, 508x493px

>>31823759
>No, he doesn't like semiautos for inferior reliability in combat conditions and only allows them as backups. His primary is a five shooter revolver. But I wouldn't dare to imagine how many backups he's got, and how many of them he's carrying. See, his job was to kill people.
Top fucking kek, you got played hard by the uberfudd spinning you a tall tale.

File: images (2).jpg (13KB, 225x225px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 225x225px

>>31823767
Time to get back on topic

>>31823737
>An airstrike will run the US govt $18k-30k
Source?

>>31823763
Which is why there are plenty of people who shoot them scoped out to ranges far beyond that. People don't have to use ball ammo, modern bullets and loads will let the 5.56/.223 reach much further.

>>31820705
To be fair the mujahideen were constantly resupplied by Pakistan and were allowed to pop over the border for R&R while raising funds by selling captured weapons and equipment in the markets,
While the the soviets refused to learn shit about COIN operations and repeatedly made the same mistakes

File: images (3).jpg (5KB, 219x230px) Image search: [Google]

5KB, 219x230px

Size matters

>>31823641

go ahead and load a soft point into an autoloader, dont shoot it but eject it; see what happens.

>>31823759
>I'd definitely take his word over yours.
I'm sure you would. If he says that 7.62 makes limbs go off it must be true.

>No, he doesn't like semiautos for inferior reliability in combat conditions and only allows them as backups. His primary is a five shooter revolver.
That's golden. I think I know what his rifle of choice would be then.

>See, his job was to kill people.
You got it backwards. All people are animals, not animals are people.

>>31823781
>inb4 lego dad
Speaking from experience. I work as an AF targeting analyst, aka an intel POG. The typical general purpose explosive warhead runs about 18k, and with a JDAM will run 30k. Hellfires cost less iirc from talking with my army counterparts but I never worked with those. Pretty sure you can even find these numbers on wikipedia.

>>31823771
Anon, I don't care for your sarcasm (which is a very convenient way out when you don't have anything to counter the argument with). I saw what I saw, and I know what I know. Also, couldn't care less if you believe what I say or laugh at it. Take your pick and move on.

>>31823804
Okay, I just did it with a 9mm Glock and a PSA AR-15 and both ejected the round and loaded a new one from the mag.

Your point being?

>>31823682

Yup, the DAY that a tank fires on us civilians or a helfire takes out a house in the USA is the day the US government loses. At least half the military and police will defect, whoever is in charge will be dead in days if not hours and its all downhill from there.

>>31820157
get 5.56. You won't be hitting anything with it so it's cheaper, and you seem like the type of person that hunts anyway so you probably already have a 30-06.

>>31823692
The Union forces toward the end of the war started to destroy any facility that could be used to aid in the Confederate war effort. Every factory that in a town that was occupied was razed to the ground. Most of these factories where not rebuilt.
At the beginning of the ear the South's economy was no where near as industrialized as the North's economy but it there was a notable industrialized portion (I think around 20% and it was growing rapidly). After the war there was virtually no industrial components to the South's economy.
If the industrialized portion of the southern economy was not destroyed as it was (and/or the post war punishment of the south did not occur) the south would have continue to industrialize which would improve the country's economy as a whole.
As we stand today, the South is just getting back to the industrialized levels it was before the war.

And before you think that I am just some butthurt southerner, I am northern born and raised (currently stuck in NJ). I also only had ancestors who fought for the North.

>>31823833
now look at the tip of the soft point rifle round, mashed up a bit right? how do that look for the aerodynamics of that round?

>>31823834
>fires on us civilians
>the day the US government loses
Waco got fired, what happened? (other than "debating", that is)

>>31820438
>further distance
>implying a 7.62 is going to be more accurate than 5.56

>>31823859
No, they look just fine. Maybe you were using shitty ammo?

>>31823879
Go back to Physics 101.

7.62 will be flatter and less swayed by the wind (not to mention brush) at the same distance. Not to mention higher energy.

>>31823816
There's no need to counter memes with anything but smug anime girls. You got taken hook, line and sinker.

But go on, why don't you tell the military how unreliable semiautos are, I'm sure the Navy SEALS will switch right over to revolvers and ditch their unreliable Glock 19s. Funny how their job is to kill people but they made such an ignorant choice of weaponry despite hundreds of thousands of rounds of testing, huh?

>>31820157
The obvious choice is both.

I have applications for both 5.56 and 7.62 nato.

why limit yourself to either or?

File: IMG_0762.gif (480KB, 493x342px) Image search: [Google]

480KB, 493x342px

>>31823879
>implying
>retards will defend this

>>31823862
That was before the time of the everyday man having internet access. The government could control what the news saw and reported. The only reason that Bundy ranch was not a massacre was that the government lost control over what information was released.

Now thanks to the Internet, every group has access to release the information they want. The government can try to discredit these groups all they want via mainstream media but more and more the mainstream media's control is leaking.

File: 1384727336290.gif (858KB, 240x228px) Image search: [Google]

858KB, 240x228px

>>31820528
>The original minuteman knew this and hid in the woods while the redcoats marched in formation

SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU FUCKING IDIOT

HOLY SHIT THIS IS THE MOST DEBUNKED AND FUCKING RETARDED MYTH OF THE ENTIRE WAR, MINUTEMEN MARCHED AND FOUGHT IN FORMATION AT PITCHED BATTLES 99% OF THE TIME. IT WAS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE GUERILLA WARFARE IN THE TIME OF BLACKPOWDER, EVERYTIME YOU SHOOT A 15 FOOT CLOUD OF SMOKE CAME OUT OF YOUR FUCKING BARREL. """"""GUERILLA""""" WARFARE IN THE REVOLUTION WAS SMALL BANDS OF 30-50 MINUTEMEN RAIDING TOWNS OF LOYALISTS OR FIGHTING OTHER LOYALIST BANDS OF 30-50, IN. FUCKING. FORMATION.

YOU COULD NOT WIN A WAR IN THE 18TH CENTURY BY "HIDING IN THE WOODS" YOU FUCKING MONG, AS STUPID AS FORMATIONS MAY SEEM TO US TODAY THEY WERE THE ONLY EFFECTIVE WAY TO OVERCOME THE DISADVANTAGES OF THE MUSKET (SHORT EFFECTIVE RANGE, SMOKE, SLOW LOADING, ETC) AND MAXIMIZE THE ADVANTAGES (MOBILE FIREPOWER)

>The redcoat officers were told that American militia were able to consistently hit officers 300 yards, and they had to switch their tactics

NO.

NO. NO. NO. YOU ARE NOT RELIABLY HITTING ANYTHING AT 300 YARDS WITH A KENTUCKY RIFLE WITH HAND-MILLED RIFLING, SLOPPY TOLERANCES, AND NO FUCKING MINIE BALL. WITH BEST CASE SCENARIO, MAYBE JUST FUCKING MAYBE YOU COULD HIT A 200 YARD MAN-SIZE TARGET. EVEN THEN YOU STILL HAVE A 10 FOOT CLOUD OF SMOKE COMING OUT OF YOUR RIFLE EVERY TIME YOU SHOOT, SO YOU CAN'T GO FULL MEL GIBSON ONE-MAN-ARMY BULLSHIT AND EXPECT NOT TO GET CUT DOWN BY ARTY OR OUT FLANKED BY CAVALRY OR SIMPLY OVERCOME BY FORMATION FIRE. RIFLEMEN WORKED IN FUCKING FORMATIONS JUST LIKE ANY OTHER COMBATANTS AT THE TIME, AND THE IDEA OF AMERICAN RIFLEMAN BEING SOMEHOW ''DIFFERENT" FROM THE FORMATIONS OF EUROPEAN RIFLEMEN OF THE SAME TIME PERIOD IS FUCKING BULLSHIT.

-T. DRUNK HISTORY MAJOR TIRED OF HOLLYWOOD BULLSHIT

>>31823932
>You got taken hook, line and sinker
Nah, I'm just in the mood to socialize a bit.

>dawning instructions on military
I didn't say what he believes is right, only said what he believes. I'm not in a position to judge, for I'm a mere beginner, but if I hear someone who's been verified as a hardcore motherfucker say shit, I'd at least try to investigate and confirm or disprove his claims (even if he's taking me for a fudd ride, some good will come out of it because I'll learn a lot of useful shit in the process).

>Funny how their job is to kill people but they made such an ignorant choice of weaponry despite hundreds of thousands of rounds of testing, huh?
Choices he made were based on the requirement of the jobs he did - which were somewhat more exotic than Navy SEALs. Also, all of us have our quirks - there was this story about a very successful kitchen furniture salesman trying to pitch a new sliding drawer with totally awesome ball bearings only to see the gal turn blue in the face and walk out. Turns out, her little sister choked on a ball bearing when she was a toddler and almost died. I'm sure there was a skeleton like that somewhere - you can imagine a situation when a semiauto FTEd or stovepiped, right?

>>31823628
>le green text XD

post counter arguments fag

>>31823859

Just fine within 300 yards in my experience, assuming we're talking about generic soft point. M4 feed ramps also dramatically reduce notching for some reason.

Partitions, bonded, and monolithics all exhibit no notching even on rifle feed ramps, and HPBT is always available for a less expensive option.

>>31824023
>NO. NO. NO. YOU ARE NOT RELIABLY HITTING ANYTHING AT 300 YARDS WITH A KENTUCKY RIFLE WITH HAND-MILLED RIFLING, SLOPPY TOLERANCES, AND NO FUCKING MINIE BALL. WITH BEST CASE SCENARIO, MAYBE JUST FUCKING MAYBE YOU COULD HIT A 200 YARD MAN-SIZE TARGET.
Timothy Murphy would certainly be surprised to hear that news with his 300 yard sniping of a British general. Hell every rifleman in Captain John Lowdon’s Company would be surprised at you saying this since they were making 250 yard shots at a 7 inch target just to be admitted into the company as a rifleman instead of a cook.

Study a little harder next semester, eh?

>>31824034
>I didn't say what he believes is right, only said what he believes.
Cool, well he can believe what he wants but that doesn't mean you should follow him in being wrong, much less preach it to other people as some kind of wisdom.

>>31824023
No, formations were to protect from shock action, nothing to do with firepower at all.

Not OP but what's a good price for a nugget in CA?
LGS has a Russian milsurp nugget for $400 should I?

>>31823594
>Lol. Our military hates city fights. Out in the rural areas you can just drop a 500lb bomb from above on whoever is bothering you without worry about collateral damage.

Which is why they had no problems fighting a guerrilla war in the mountains of Afghanistan right? They just bombed them all and there was no problem at all.

>you aren't outrunning a tank and it can see you with its optics long before you can see it.

Tanks are only good against hard targets and other tanks. Despite what Cowa dooty told you, tanks are not good at anti personnel. Two assholes with RPGs can cripple a tank or down it if they get lucky.

>>31823763
See >>31823499

>>31823787
And to be equally as fair, and armed conflict in the US is going to have much more outside involvement than that war ever did

>>31824023
>MINUTEMEN MARCHED AND FOUGHT IN FORMATION AT PITCHED BATTLES 99% OF THE TIME

Actually the continental army did that, the militia and the minuteman who were not in the army did not.

>>31824023
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the two main reasons that the revolutionaries did way at the very early twilight of the war was because they disregarded the traditional rules of war? Things like taking up positions behind cover and shooting at officers (you don't have to hit the officer to remove him from command just separate him from his troops).

I know that their was discipline issues throughout the war (units would break formation upon a bayonet charge constantly) and most troops lacked basic training (and equipment too).

>>31823862

I would argue Bundy Ranch went down the way it did largely because of Waco. BLM wasn't going to have a repeat of the ATFs debacle on national television, so they opted to step back.

>>31824023
>>31824083

So who do I believe?

>>31824114
>>31824023
Formations were meant for close combat with bayonets, as that was still the most important form of combat on the Revolutionary War battlefield. Most rifleman ambushes were responded to with a bayonet charge, and the distance between them and the charge was what made the ambushes work, since they had enough space to flee and take up a new ambush position elsewhere. They couldn't do a stand-up fight because of numbers.

In fact, the Constitutional Army at one point had too many rifles and asked for their supply to stop in favor of muskets since they needed the ability to do a stand-up pitched battle properly at that point which required bayonets, and riflemen were hard to train compared to musketmen.

Sure, the milita who bore the nickname Minutemen used muskets primarily. But riflemen were very effective in the Revolutionary War and DID employ guerilla warfare.

>>31823879

Well my BB gun was accurate too

>>31820528
>the ennemies will march in tight formations in 2016+
>they wont have snipers nor >>31820643

Are you retarded ?

File: 1476361945815.png (209KB, 800x590px) Image search: [Google]

209KB, 800x590px

>>31820528
>>31820705
>>31823253
>>31823433
>>31823599
>>31823759
This shit is fucking bait, right?

>there's no effective manner of dealing with threats beyond 400 yards lol I'll be the invisible death, the cold ebin sniper
>lol .50 BMG will hurt you just by passing by you son
>semiautomatic 7.62x51mms aren't better at all anon come on
>semiautomatics in general are bad that's why nobody uses them XD

I mean, I don't know what I was expecting from /k/, but fuck.

>>31824106
>preach
Nah. Consider this: an opinion is expressed that is different from yours. Now, why do you have yours? Is it based on your personal experience? Is it based on experience of someone who you trust? Or is it "everyone says so"? Navy SEALs? Fuck Navy SEALs, they're not the holiest of holies, there are units that are far more interesting (though less abundant). Or is it just the leap of faith? Or is it overlooking the fact that Navy SEALs' weapons chosen to be the lowest bidder, and they're chosen using the math of "acceptable battle losses"? Did it ring in your head for a second that for you, the definition of acceptable battle loss is different?

Me, I don't like revolvers - in particular, I think 15 round mag beats a five or six shooter that you won't be able to reload in a hurry.

He prefers revolvers because of decades of practice with sharpshooting and reloading, and for the fact that a bad round won't cause you to need to rack the slide and possibly become dead while doing that.

You take your pick.

>>31824213
>>the ennemies will march in tight formations in 2016+

Show me where I said this

>>they wont have snipers nor

Also never said this, I also clarified that drones are a moot point because if your in a city or in the bush they're effectively the same amount of threat

>>31824218
Only the first two comments come from me, but nice try.

>there's no effective manner of dealing with threats beyond 400 yards lol I'll be the invisible death, the cold ebin sniper

Literally never said this. I said the normal infantry is a shit shot and their carbines can't effectively hit you from further than 400 yards.

>lol .50 BMG will hurt you just by passing by you son

Just going by what a gunner told me, I've never seen one in action myself. He had no reason to lie so I believed him.

>>31824232
OP - here's this guy, he decided to get married. He gave $1000 to three girls.

The first spent the money on herself.
The second spent the money on him.
The third invested it, got a tenfold return, and gave him the half.

He thought hard and married the one with biggest tits.

Your choice will be similar.

>>31824232
I love my model 29 but fuck people are retarded I'd take my cz 75 sp01 over it in a heart beat if for what ever reason something happened. 20 rounds semi auto vrs a 6 shooter? Its not even an opinion its just common sense...

>>31824160
>Which is why they had no problems fighting a guerrilla war in the mountains of Afghanistan right? They just bombed them all and there was no problem at all.
Yeah, that's actually what happened quite a lot during TICs out in the rural areas. Ambush would happen, troops would shoot back, Air Force would come drop a bomb and the ambushers would be dead. Couldn't do that in urban areas.

>Tanks are only good against hard targets and other tanks. Despite what Cowa dooty told you, tanks are not good at anti personnel. Two assholes with RPGs can cripple a tank or down it if they get lucky.
That's utter bullshit, but only somewhat bullshit if you are talking in an urban environment. Tanks in large field exercises in open countryside can and do sim-kill entire squads before those squads even know the tanks are there, per a Sergeant First Class I worked with. Superior optics and long range weaponry are more than sufficient to put multiple rounds into the column. In his words: "We were just walking along and suddenly everyone's MILES gear lights up. Turns out an M-1 that nobody even knew was there had been tracking us and lit us up." This is long before any of them could have employed an AT-4. Actual wartime use in Iraq has shown it to be equally as effective when not simulated.

Even in an urban area tanks are good for killing personnel by blowing up the buildings those personnel are in and killing via the blast or the collapsing rubble, or using their machine gun. At least in urban areas, you might have a chance to get close enough to employ an anti-tank munition before the tank crew sees and kills you.


tl;dr: you're a fucking idiot who is spreading garbage ideas.

File: 1400418304714.gif (3MB, 432x227px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 432x227px

>>31824114
>nothing to do with firepower at all

THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT OF FORMATIONS WAS TO GET AS MANY ROUNDS ON TARGET AS POSSIBLE. YOU CREATE A """MACHINE GUN""" OUT OF HUMAN BODIES AND MUSKETS. WHY THE FUCK DO YOU THINK ALL THE MILITARIES OF THE PERIOD DRILLED PRIMARILY TO INCREASE FIRERATE?

>>31824091
>Timothy Murphy would certainly be surprised to hear that news with his 300 yard sniping of a British general

THE FIRST FUCKING MENTION FOR THIS EVENT IS A LETTER WRITTEN 50 YEARS AFTER THE WAR. THE FIRST WRITTEN ACCOUNTS, FROM 60 AND 70 YEARS AFTER THE FACT, TO ACTUALLY MENTION TIMOTHY BY NAME TELL US THAT HIS ENTIRE GROUP OF RIFLEMEN UNDER HIS COMMAND SHOT AT THE GENERAL AND KILLED HIM. EVEN THE ACCOUNTS THAT TELL US THAT TIMOTHY HIMSELF SHOT THE GENERAL SAY IT TOOK HIM 4 SHOTS.

>Hell every rifleman in Captain John Lowdon’s Company would be surprised at you saying this since they were making 250 yard shots at a 7 inch target just to be admitted into the company

NIGGA IT WAS A 7IN WOOD POLE STICKING OUT OF THE GROUND, AND THE WHOLE FUCKING FORMATION OF RIFLEMEN FIRED AT IT TO DEMONSTRATE PROFICIENCY.

>>31824172
>Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the two main reasons that the revolutionaries did way at the very early twilight of the war was because they disregarded the traditional rules of war? Things like taking up positions behind cover and shooting at officers

NO. ITS HOLLYWOOD TO THINK THAT SOMEHOW THE REVOLUTIONARIES WERE, WELL, REVOLUTIONARY IN WARFARE. THEY MARCHED AND FOUGHT MUCH LIKE THE BRITISH DID BECAUSE MANY OF THEM, AND ALMOST ALL THEIR LEADERS, WERE COMBAT VETERANS FROM SERVICE IN THE BRITISH MILITARY. SHOOTING FROM COVER AND SHOOTING AT OFFICERS WAS NOTHING NEW.

>>31824232
>okay, okay, we could buy these ebin revolvers that apparently would be significantly better and avoid "battle losses" for our elite personnel that we've pumped huge amounts of time and money into, or we could save a few bucks on these shitty semiautomatic handguns lol

>>31824356
>THE FIRST FUCKING MENTION FOR THIS EVENT IS A LETTER WRITTEN 50 YEARS AFTER THE WAR. THE FIRST WRITTEN ACCOUNTS, FROM 60 AND 70 YEARS AFTER THE FACT, TO ACTUALLY MENTION TIMOTHY BY NAME TELL US THAT HIS ENTIRE GROUP OF RIFLEMEN UNDER HIS COMMAND SHOT AT THE GENERAL AND KILLED HIM.
Actually the first account was 28 years after the war from his son. It says that a few riflemen tried and missed upon which Murphy was selected to try.
>EVEN THE ACCOUNTS THAT TELL US THAT TIMOTHY HIMSELF SHOT THE GENERAL SAY IT TOOK HIM 4 SHOTS.
No, the accounts say that it took him 3, and the 4th shot killed a messenger arriving at the General's side.
>NIGGA IT WAS A 7IN WOOD POLE STICKING OUT OF THE GROUND, AND THE WHOLE FUCKING FORMATION OF RIFLEMEN FIRED AT IT TO DEMONSTRATE PROFICIENCY.
This is incorrect.

>>31824397
For Pete's sake, I'm talking about CCW, and what are you talking about?

>>31820157
Don't spread pictures like that. Libtards will try to ban assault bottles and assault rocks

>>31820157
>>>31820157
>you can have all my caps

>>31824232

>, and for the fact that a bad round won't cause you to need to rack the slide and possibly become dead while doing that.

As opposed to reloading every six rounds instead of every 10 or 15?

Your friend is an imbecile.

File: 1444712119998.jpg (150KB, 766x1024px) Image search: [Google]

150KB, 766x1024px

>>31823599
>>31823759
>>31823816
>>31824034
>>31824232

I can't tell if you're a good subtle baiter or if you're an innocent retard taken for a ride.

>>31823628
What the fuck even is that picture

>>31820157
5.56 you can stock up more and carry more.

>>31824611
So there *is* some doubt in your mind. Now consider the arguments given, and see if they work for you. I did state that they don't work for me, but they do work for that guy, and he's still alive to tell his tales.

>>31824356
Only on /k/: Karkat teaches history.

Did OP read Tom "We Created Nazis To Fight Nazis" Kratman's A State If Obedience? Probably not, or else he will think bottles are enough.

First, Hungary never colapsed as an outcome of World War II.....
Second, Czechoslovakia*.
Third, [Czech Republic] & [Slovakia]'s land mass still exist today as well as with their surviving population. They are just separated into two different nations.

>>31824734
>So there *is* some doubt in your mind.
Being unsure whether you are lying or mentally deficient does not make him doubt that you are wrong either way.

>>31824816
Here's my honest word that I'm neither lying, nor am mad or stupid or anything.

Yes, anon, reality is bizarre, and choices people make are sometimes unfathomable. You did see the part where I said I don't like his choices either, right?

For the record (and to get back on topic), my CCW is a full size 9mm DA/SA with no manual safety, and I believe that 5.56 and 7.62 don't contradict but complement each other - I have both, and a few other meme items as well (mandatory pre-WW2 Mosin among them).

>>31823804
Or any of the open tip stuff that's on the market.

>>31820234
Have fun dying to liberty prime sized crab people.

>>31823733
The return of Carl Carwindows

>>31820480
Bait right ? If not bait, gtfo k and go see a doctor cuz you my friend have autism..

are DPMS AR 10s any good? I've already got an AR-15, and want to get a more powerful rifle before Hillary Bans everything except one shot 22s'

>>31825535
From what I read online for AR-10's DPMS is setting the "standard" due to larger AR-15 commonality and highest quality of manufacture. Just be careful since no country adopted an AR-10 as a standard, there is no real standard and parts from different companies may not fit together.

File: 11807426_1016520575048826_8766794529595340568_o.jpg (94KB, 599x481px) Image search: [Google]

94KB, 599x481px

>>31824659

>>31824023
>BLACKPOWDER, EVERYTIME YOU SHOOT A 15 FOOT CLOUD OF SMOKE CAME OUT OF YOUR FUCKING BARREL
Pew pew, run run
Meanwhile the Redcoats are still in formation and awaiting orders to pursue.
How is this impossible?

>>31820157
If I buy an AR, and get a .300 blackout upper, will it be compatible will i have to get a new lower?

>>31824272
>Just going by what a gunner told me, I've never seen one in action myself. He had no reason to lie so I believed him.
Your "gunner" is full of shit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrHpe5Z93wM

>>31825821

nope, same lower, you're good to go. same lower, same bolt, same magazines. just plop it on and go.

>>31824218
>>semiautomatic 7.62x51mms aren't better at all anon come on
Because they aren't. You are always better off using a gun that was specifically designed for whatever job you want done.

Battle rifles are a thing of the past. Go to bed grandpa.

>>31825926
Thank you. I need to pick up in case killary wins.