Hollowpoint Vs. FMJ

>>31726005
7.62 fmj heh. what a great movie.

Either is fine desu. I guess technically hollow points might be better for day to day shit since anybody attacking you outside the wal-mart or whatever probably isn't wearing body armor, but honestly I don't see where it's too huge of a difference for a cc gun

>fmj for armor
>hollowpoints for bodies

>>31726005
Please buy HP for your carry ammo. I don't care how poor you are.

>>fmj for armor
>real life is not CoD

>>31726025
>why were you carrying FMJ and HP ammo?
>fer penitraytin body armer yer honer
>so you were preparing to engage law enforcement with deadly force?

Just carry what LEOs carry. Way easier to justify in court.

>>31726045
>>31726069
Yeah that kind of is a bitch to defend. As weird as it sounds. Using the ammo designed to blossom in the target and turn his guts into guacamole is more responsible then something that punches through. Possibly hitting innocent people behind the target or is specifically designed to defeat body armor. Almost exclusively used by police officers.

Am still unsure exactly HOW much "over penetration" can occur.

Like will a round go through Tyrone and then across the street and through a wall and into someone sitting on the john?

File: 1459738952832.jpg (25KB, 480x433px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 480x433px

>>31726005
tiny bump

Any real reason to carry FMJ over HP in your carry weapon?

>>31728504
I carry fmj because i cant find hp in my carry caliber. Havent looked very hard, but still.

>>31728504
Just carry a mag of both and switch between as necessary

>>31728558
>mag of both

nigger this ain't Miami vice. I can hide my concealed carry just enough without overly donning outer jackets. If I need more then 15 rounds then I am no longer in a situation that I am prepared for in my day to day life.

>>31728504
If your gun is in .38 special or similar an would lack penetration otherwise. Or if your carry weapon fires a rifle round and you want to defeat soft armor.

>>31728578
>he doesn't CC a full size 10mm

>>31728586
>he isn't preparing to kill a godamn terminator

>>31726005
overpenetration in handgun cartridges is a meme unless youre surrounded by people or live in a home thats pushed directly up against other homes, like an apartment complex. you should be far more worried about not being able to penetrate far enough to stop your attacker than you should be about the astronomically low chance of accidentally hitting someone two walls away. this is doubly true if youre using a handgun cartridge.

luckily there are plenty of jhp that reliably pass the 12 inch test, so they cause the maximum amount of tissue damage while still penetrating far enough to disable the CNS. they also generally dont penetrate past 18 inches, so there is little chance of overpenetration even if you do live in a tiny apartment complex.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

>>31726005
>in urban area
>have to legitimately use gun for self-defense
>fmj
>goes through bad guy and strikes someone else

I hope you like civil lawsuits.

>>31728578
You really do need an extra mag.

>>31726069
>>31726122

Might as well get *gasp* .22lr.

>>31728645
I was about to respond to your talk on unreliable penetration in good modern day jhp's.
Then I read further.
But the "problem" with deciding on good modern JHP's seem to now be how consistent it expands and if it doesn't over-penetrate.
SO with that in mind, no, unless you're going below 9mm, the main problem is finding JHP's that don't clog up from clothing and becoming a semi-fmj and just zipping through.

File: image3.jpg (24KB, 765x435px) Image search: [Google]

24KB, 765x435px

>>31728601

When someone comes back in time and shoots up your favorite mid-90s hangout spot, you remember being so dismissive and the cost of your lack of preparedness.

>>31726005
Huge difference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8hbkXPdlks

>>31728755
>the main problem is finding JHP's that don't clog up from clothing and becoming a semi-fmj and just zipping through.
theres not a lot of documented tests proving which brands of jhp suffer from this problem so youve either got to test them yourself or not worry about overpenetration.

File: tmp_2968-Ruger-PolyCase-ARX-Lead.jpg.cf-292170227.jpg (31KB, 666x399px) Image search: [Google]

31KB, 666x399px

There is no such thing as over penetration

If you know what I mean

>>31726122
If wall is vinyl siding wood and basic insulation yes it can depending on caliber bullet weight and velocity. If wall is brick you would need to be running something absurd to go through with a handgun

>>31728581
Speer used to make good snub nosed designed hollow points

>>31726069
>Just carry what LEOs carry. Way easier to justify in court.
Ammo that misses the first 30 shots?

>>31728504
Hp doesn't always penetrate sufficiently, fmj only relies on a lack of significant barrier and shot placement

Over penetration reportedly occurs in 50% of nypd engagements using fmj. For the amount of times you'll be opening fire with intent to forcibly stop an assailant by way of lethal force, you can eat that 50%

Cops can't.

>>31729655
If you can't shoot for shit with Federal HST, you just can't shoot for shit and probably shouldn't be carrying.

>>31726005

There are a plethora of tests that you can watch on youtube right now that support the legitimacy of the over-penetration problem. Not only does an over-penetrating round fail to do an ideal amount of damage to soft tissue, but they also risk hitting an innocent bystander.

Do what literally everyone else does: practice with FMJ, carry with JHP.

>>31726005
I'd carry fmj or any penetrator as once. Hollow points are shit for penetration but if you get a "less damaging" penetrator it's still going to do alot of damage even through cover

>>31729873
What self defense scenarios do you see yourself in to even start seriously considering cover penetration?

>>31726005
Holy crap is this real life? You carry hollow points
in your carry gun, no debate about it
It's irresponsible to carry ball ammo in a concealed carry gun. Hollow points expand to
minimize penetration so you can shoot with less
chance of hitting a little old lady on a motorized
cart accidentally in walmart. It's not horseshit
watch youtube ammo tests. You'll see they do
what they are sposed to. Do more research
before you carry holy shit.

>>31729889
What if Jamal has an MRAP?

>>31730907
750k? Jamal doesn't have an MRAP...

>>31730924
You'd be surprised how much you can make selling drugs.

>>31730948
Fair point. Friggin Jamal is loaded.

>>31730878
What's with the formatting?

Is this supposed to be some kind of poetry?

>>31728968
>Not RIP ammo.

>>31731022
I don't know, thought it made it easier to read. Do you not like it?

>>31731140
It's just weird to line-break mid-sentence.

File: image.jpg (28KB, 222x293px) Image search: [Google]

28KB, 222x293px

>>31728601
>2016
>not carrying a Glock 20 with 5 loaded 15rd mags equal to 75 rounds of 200gr 10mm FMJ +P+
>being a .380womanfag or a 9mmbabykid

>>31731022
Maybe he thinks shitposting in haikou is classy

It's literally fine. In before an army of butthurt, sexually confused 9mm owners come out screaming MUH EXPANSION while also furiously denying that the .45 is any better. It will be as lethal but perhaps less incapacitating.

>>31728578
>if shit gets serious enough, I will just give up because that was my day to die

wrong type of thinking

>>31731250
.45 better for what? Shooting someone 10 feet away?

>>31731207
>>31728601
>>31728586
>>31728578
>>31728558
guys just carry a gun with a double stacked mag

>>31730977
CC size 40mm recoilless rifles when?

>>31731312
When we invent portable pocket dimensions

File: 4037809_02_speer_gold_dot_g2_9mm_147_gr_640.jpg (68KB, 640x853px) Image search: [Google]

68KB, 640x853px

if youre not carrying G2 147gr, you should

Does anyone really think it's fine to carry FMJ in everyday CC?

>>31728519
youre an idiot. Can you give us a schedule of the areas that you frequent so I can avoid being collateral damage if you ever need to pull that thing? Get a fucking real caliber you pleb

>>31731270
What alternative do you suggest? Wearing body armor and carrying your rifle everywhere?

>>31731487
idk how about RUNNING THE FUCK AWAY

use your goddamned brain anon

>>31731487
CALL THE POLICE

>>31726122
Bullets generally lose a lot of velocity when passing through a body and usually begins to tumble and whatnot, further decreasing velocity.

A bullet passing through a persons body and being able to kill another is mostly just video game bullshit unless you're using a large calibre.

>>31728786
Bullshit. Hst and gold dot are very reliable in 9mm,.40 sw,357 Sig/saw and .45 acp. Dozens and dozens of videos and websites showing testing.

Tnoutdoors on YouTube alone shows video after video of reasonable testing.

>>31731355
G2 performs demonstrably worse than first gen gold dots. Way to fall for marketing dipshit.

>>31731556
Did you even read the post that was referenced? Not carrying more than 15 rounds doesn't mean you're unable to RUN THE FUCK AWAY

>>31731611
uh what? Mythbusters showed pretty conclusively that even handgun rounds will go through several feet of tissue. Most people aren't 5 feet thick.

Nobody else has seen the X-rays of black people that survived being mag dumped by a police squad?

If they were using FMJ or hard cast they'd be dead and not need X-rays.

>>31731944
FMJ would just go right through and cause even less damage. They survived not because HP failed to penetrate but because they were not hit in a vital area.

File: 235.gif (2MB, 640x480px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 640x480px

>>31729783

>>31731899
Several feet of balistic gel /= several feet of human.

Balistic gel is NOT a 1:1 of flesh, bone, and blood.

Idiots fuck everything up.

Balistic gel is a uniform and roughly correct construment of flesh, at great parts gel to flesh.

Read a book, stop posting for awhile. All of you.

>>31732100
Negative, effective hp tends to fail to penetrate deeply enough to affect vital areas even when hit, data shows. Fmj has better lethality becahse it's pron to overpenetration and will ensure vital cns disruption with ideal shot placement. hp, even with ideal shot placement suffers with lethality because it is prone to fast energy transfer and is not tested against the denser tissues in the human body.

>>31729783
He was making a joke about bad police marksmanship.

File: 1459787455178.gif (442KB, 300x300px) Image search: [Google]

442KB, 300x300px

>>31726069
>>why were you carrying FMJ and HP ammo?
Because HP ammo is suppose to be really good for self defense but it's really expensive. So I included some regular hard ball.

Easy.

>>31734342
>data shows
can you post it?

Speaking of ballistics and whatnot, is the Fackler report any value to ordinary schlubs? It's the only wound ballistics paper I can think of off the top of my head.
http://rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html

>>31731487
Carry a spare mag
Pull a knife
Use your fists
Throw dirt
Pistol whip them

Anything except giving up

>>31734375
>would the defendant please state the price of the firearm he used to kill the victim?

Good luck proving you're absolutely too poor to afford a single magazine of JHP

>>31731899
>2016
>thinking Mythbusters is science and not entertainment

What's it like not having had any science classes since middle school?

>>31726005
I don't give a fuck about over penetration i just want to put as big a hole in the faggot as possible

>>31734536
I'm bad at budgeting. Look at how much I overpaid for the gun

>>31726005
For cartridges that don't have issues with penetration then hollow points are a better option. If you carry small like 380 or 9mm Mak, you should carry ball because those calibers can't reliably meet FBI standards for penetration all the time.

>>31728519
You can't find it at Wally World, or you can't find it at all? What special snowflake is your carry piece chambered in where you can't find it?

>>31734389
Look up fbi data that compares injuries and shot placement. Fmj, for some reason, tend to have better rate of cns hits, it could be more because of sloppy attitude based on the assumption of performance of jhp than actual ballistics. Regardless, the final conclusion after being forced to dig it up myself, as I'll do to you now, is that shot placement beats choice of warhead, which only provides marginal boosts in killyness and frequently seems to cause users to reduce their lethality by slacking on technique.

>>31734812
Can't put a hole in em if you don't overpen, looks like it's fmj all day long for you

>>31726005
You should carry HPs, not only to prevent overpenetration but for greater stopping power as well.

Handgun rounds already suck from a ballistics standpoint, so you should be trying to get every last bit of stopping power out of them.

>>31726005
over penetration is a huge concern. you don't want to hit the person standing behind your target. even a 22lr will go strait through someone if it doesn't hit bone

File: IMG_8342.jpg (1MB, 1600x1200px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1600x1200px

>>31728586
>yfw i do CC a full sized 10mm
>yfw alternate feeding between extreme penatrators and mach 2 fragmenting hollow points

bears, Cartels, Terminators, North American forest apes, i fear nothing with that on my hip.

File: island.jpg (54KB, 439x275px) Image search: [Google]

54KB, 439x275px

>>31738058
thats one of the most irresponsible CCW loads ive ever seen.

i like it.

>>31738058
fucking kek

>>31728968
mfw i carry this meme ammo
worst $25 ive ever spent

>>31726005
Don't shoot both the melanin-enriched gentlemen AND your neighbor.
Pick one, use HP.

I don't give a fuck about overpenetration. If my hollow point enters the bad guys, opens up AND penetrates through-and-through, leaving 2 holes to bleed out of instead of 1, then I am all for it. If someone is behind the bad guy, they should get out of the way. Plus, if the expanded bullet does manage to go through, it will have dick-all for energy left and will probably bounce off someone.

Rifle rounds are another story.

File: 20161018_155340.jpg (1MB, 2560x1440px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 2560x1440px

>>31726005
This was after going through 4" of solid wood. FMJ easily pens and keeps going.

Alternatively I've never found an intact JHP. Most get stuck in the wood. Best I found was most of a jacket.

>>31731611
This issue isn't just for passing through a person, but also misses. A FMJ will easily pass through a wall or two including studs and still have enough force to wound someone. JHP while still able to pen are more likely to get lodged in studs, and will tumble much more readily than a FMJ.

Hell JHP has issues staying consistent just by going through a few pairs of jeans.

>>31731645
they have tests using different types of clothing in front of ballistic gel to make sure they dont expand too early?

>>31739624
An old colleague of mine carried a 75 compact with all types of defensive ammo imaginable, one or two rounds of each. Starting with two rounds of fmj progressing through hard cast lead, hollow points, plastic tips, even glaser slugs. I asked him how he would argument all those (sadly illegal) bullets in court. He said he wouldnt stand around waiting for the police to come if he had to use it in SD.

>>31726069
>thinking normies know or care about the difference between types of ammunition
as far as 99% of people are concerned, a bullet is a bullet and each has a 100% chance of immediately killing you unless you get hit in the arm or leg, which has a 0% chance of killing you. plenty of people use fmj in their carry guns and you couldnt find a single case of someone being convicted of otherwise justifiable self defense based on the type of ammunition used in their carry gun.

>>31740839
An attorney representing the good boy who didn't do nothin' that you just shot isn't a normie. It's his job to fuck you right in the asshole, and he'll exploit every single nuance to do so.

>All this what if bullshit pushed by hollow point users
The majority of hand gun ammo is ball ammo and the majority of ammo used by people using hand guns is ball ammo. You will see niche spots in stores for hollow points but usually only at lgs.

Take your "muh" over penetration and shove it up your ass.

>>31741112
You won't find holsters at Walmart either, what's your point?

And I hope for your sake no one shoves their over penetration up their ass near you, you might get hit by it too.

>>31741158
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8hbkXPdlks

>>31728578
>what are pockets?

>>31726005
here is how i load my 9mm from 1st to last round
>70gr Tungsten core
>fmj
>fmj
>Tracer
>Hornady Elite Close Contact Double Defense HP
>RIP Round
>RIP Round
>Tracer
>Uranium core
>Fiocchi x7

>>31728504
If you're carrying a smaller/lower velocity caliber and/ or you're in very cold weather where people will wear multiple, thick layers of clothing. A hollow point clogged up with denim or any other thick material will act like ball ammo anyways, but it'll tumble.

For those on some sort of fence, a lot of hollow points fail to open in compact pistol barrels due to a lack of velocity; most of the data you see is for 5in duty barrels. As a result, they still tend to over-penetrate. So you can either look for rounds designed or proven to act reliably in compact barrels, or you carry a HP round that acts basically like FMJ but with more legal precedent.

>>31729662
>you can eat that 50%
>Cops can't.
Other way around, anon, the cops are immune from prosecution so long as they were acting within the scope of their duties and department policy.

Non-officers don't have that, you cannot eat that 50%, because it is both criminal and civil charges for the man on the street.

>>31741112
The majority of handgun ammo isn't fired into living beings anon. That's why people mostly fire ball ammo, it's why brands like Federal have come out with FMJ loads that duplicate the trajectory of their JHP loads.

You carry JHP and practice with FMJ.

>>31740813
SD? San Diego???
Honestly I wouldn't either.

File: Capture1.jpg (27KB, 426x312px) Image search: [Google]

27KB, 426x312px

>>31726005
>NO ONE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO HAVE ARMOR PIERCING BULLETS. THE ONLY REASON TO HAVE ARMOR PIERCING BULLETS IS TO PIERCE ARMOR. I DON'T WANT TO LET THUGS WHO ARE TERRORISTS HAVE ARMOR PIERCING BULLETS. I AM PRO COP. VIRTUE! OH VIRTUE!

>>31743309
Why do want to arm the cops with Black Killer Bullets?

File: BjBtfWT.png (333KB, 457x453px) Image search: [Google]

333KB, 457x453px

>>31743378
DON'T YOU DARE SAY i DON'T TALK ABOUT COPS! I TALK ABOUT COPS AND SAUDI ARABIA ALL THE TIME (*armenian-chola in background* get off the stage you fat cuck~!)

>>31740839
>implying hitting an artery in the leg isn't a death sentence