Why does no one talk about Italian WW2 weapon and vehicles?

Because Italy wasn't even IN ww2 duh

>>31723211
I agree, the minor powers don't get enough attention. I wish we had more Romanian, Hungarian, and others shown here too.

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>>31723245
Nice shitpost

>>31723211
Because Italy largely sucked at building tanks. They could build good fighters and good ships, but for some reason not tanks.

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>>31723406
Like most Italian things, they did end up building good tanks but only once it was already too late. Pic related.

Italy was simply not ready for WW2. A few more years of tooling up for war and they probably would have done much better.

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Please do not bully the Italians. They're tanks were very cute and small!

>>31723211
Because they were still far behind everyone else in terms of armored vehicle design. The fact that they had no guns capable of penetrating the British Matilda when they first fought shows how poorly they'd invested in armored warfare technologies.

>>31723456
>they did end up building good tanks
yea, almost good enough for 1939

>>31723550
>Expecting a country with very limited resources and an inferior industrial capacity to invest in heavy tanks when a quarter of the country is too mountainous to effectively use them

There are no pastaboos on this board, that is why

>>31723211
The AB series armored cars like the one pictured were bretty gud. Most of the rest of their armor was trash.

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>>31723581
>Implying

Do NOT bully Mussolini-chan

https://youtu.be/0I71VX5RyGA

>>31723574
I honestly don't know where are you going with your post, Italy never had good tanks and the P40 was obsolete the moment the calendar flipped to 1941

>>31723211
>Yes they were shit compared to even the Japanese,
have you even looked at what the nipnogs were using?

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>>31723470
Von Rundstedt described the Italians that fought alongside the Wehrmacht as "terrible people"; they were a bunch ill-equipped, ill-armed, and ill-trained bunch of rejects who couldn't even fight the Greeks without German assistance.

Their tanks were as small as they were useless and poorly constructed. The rivets were poorly secured, serving more to injure the crew than to hold the armor together, the engines had the propensity to catch fire quite easily, and their armament proved inadequate against the most common British armored vehicles.

That said Italy did produce some first rate aircraft and warships, along with a few small arms and armored cars that were actually quite good. Their tanks however were behind literally every other country that had even a moderately sized armored vehicle industry, and what they produced was literally fit to tow artillery and supplies were ever the trucks had trouble.

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The sahariana was a superb technical.

>>31723597
I don't know WHAT this was...
But it was beautiful.

>>31723728
The problem is they didn't even have the resources to keep producing those.
How you hope to win a war when every other countries rolled out METAL BAWKSES by the hundred?

>>31723676
fuck off man

>>31723501
>>31723456
We aren't talking about them being good or not. We are just talking about them, and the thread is for people who find them charming. Christ you people are impossible

>>31723980
You asked why no one talked about Italian vehicles and I told you why

>>31723406
They actually did build some decent fighters though, the Macchi C.205 was very good

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>[muffled pasta laugh]

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>>31723211
>Why does no one talk about Italian WW2 weapon and vehicles?
Because they were almost universally shit.

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>>31723456
Looks like a baby panther.

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>>31726188
The Hungarian baby panther is superior.

>>31726200
What is this

>>31726237
44m Tas. One prototype built, factory bombed.

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I wrote a history alt fic for a writers web sight where Italy and Germany manage to save off war, a schism forms and Italy and Germany go to war in 1944 due to differences in Fascism.

The Italian internal political situation, and the MVSN were way cooler than Germany/Nazis and the SS. You'll just never know though, because no one cares ;_;

Pictured are MVSN troops with the Breda 30, arguable the worst Machine Gun of WWII in a tactical sense. Feeding from a fixed box magazine holding 20 rounds located on the side of the weapon, the Berda 30 suffered from just general inferiority.
Firstly, the Italians did not emoploy the weapon well compared to the German contemporaries, or, really, any other nation.

Initially issued at 6 per comapny, or two per platoon, this was later expanded to one per squad, and eventually ballooned further to two. Interestingly, it was common practice in the MVSN and the RIA to issue it to the squads most reliable soldier-the squads NCO, which resulted in him and what would normally be his senior rifleman having a heavy workload.

The weapon, while light, suffered from many issues besides its tactical employment: it was maintenance heavy, and suffered poor extraction. They were of moderate build quality, but often lacked interchangeable parts among one another.

Too, like most Italian small arms of WWII, it suffered from inferior ammunition and cartridges, the 6.5x52mm lacking performance. While light in weight, troops found themselves outgunned at ranges beyond 200 meters-an issue, especially in the Italian colonial and home theater.

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>>31726339

The Breda 30s magazine was sustained by way of 20 round chargers, pictured here, which were simultaneously expensive to make and exposed the cartridges to external contaminants, which aided in the weapons poor reliability reputation.

The oiling system was poorly designed and thought out, and sometimes was just ignored all together due to its complexity, which compounded the issues. Its low rate of fire and mild caliber made it controllable, but really hampered its supressive ability. A slow barrel change process would be the coating on this unpleasant pill the Italians would need to swallow.

Its not all bad however; if it ran, and if the gunner and an assistant gunner were well trained, the -30 could produce a volume of fire similar to belt fed Machine Guns due to its ability to be loaded by a second man without any interference with the gunner, but was, at best, a dubious action.

>>31723211
BECAUSE ITALIANS JUST FUCKING SURRENDERED AND LOOKED HAPPY WHILE DOING SO FUCK

>>31726419
>>31726339

thank you discount ian

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>>31726450

this is the highest compliment ive ever received ;-;

Italian Interbellum and WWII politics and weapons are my weird fetish.

>>31726200

fuck off with your pol alt right garbage stormfag

>>31726490
Yeah thats, oddly specific and fairly obscure.

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>>31726502
Im sorry, I did not realize the tank was racist. What did it say to you?

>>31723581
keked

>>31726502

dude what

>>31723714
I remember reading something about German officers in Africa being shocked that brothel trucks would follow the Italian officers around, and that Italian officers had their own luxury tents or whatever whilst German officers were more or less embedded with their men

>>31726188
Anglos: successfully removing dictators and promoting peace and stability since 1945

>>31726592

dude stop, youre not making sense, save it for actual stormfags and kellarnazis

>>31726490

do you have any good source on it? i watch that one documentary about fascist italy but id like a closer view

>>31726592

you're being a bit heavy-handed, settle down dude, nothing worth getting that worked up over

>>31726565
I'm currently reading Beevor's Stalingrad and they devote a brief segment describing the German allies in fighting the Soviets. Rundstedt said that the Romanian NCO's were "beyond description", the Hungarian's "only wanted to get home quickly", but the Slovaks and Romanian mountain troops were first rate. The Romanian officers really treated their troops with great disdain and basically tried to distance themselves as far from them as they could.

>>31726652
>tfw all your allies are shit while the allied powers are all bros

>>31726592
You're really reaching here. I just posted a picture of a Hungarian prototype that I found interesting. I also just posted something about the Hungarians not actually being that great of allies. I never would've thought I'd get called a wehrboo by posting a picture of something that only outwardly resembles a piece of German equipment a little.

Can someone sum up italys problem with it army in ww2? Also what were the berslegari or whatever?

>>31726617
>>31726640
>>31726693

stormweenies are so easy to trigger

>>31726339
>The Italian internal political situation, and the MVSN were way cooler than Germany/Nazis and the SS. You'll just never know though, because no one cares ;_;

Care to discuss more, I'm interested.

>Inb4 go to /pol/ or /his/

>>31726633

Books mostly. Osprey books.

Anzio, Monte Cassino, a few scattered books here and there id need in front of me.

>>31726508

Thanks I guess

If wanted I can, I guess, attempt to talk about any topics around Italy in WWII? Im not the most knowledgeable but i know a fair amount I guess?

>>31726721

what are you talking about? if i mentioned some of my political views on /k/ people would spam me with helicopter memes

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>>31726721

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>>31726781
>>31726788

He's literally fishing for (you)s.

Just ignore him.

>>31726592
>>>/lgbt/
go back to your containment board

>>31726781
I refer you to
>>31726565
>>31723714

They had a very poor officers corps and were not well equipped. I'm not sure about the air force or navy though.

Regia Marina was the best equipped of any Italian service. That being said, they were still ill equipped for WWII.

https://youtu.be/IqoOk5nZEKw

>>31726735

Oh, cool. Focusing only on the MVSN a bit:

The MVSN (Milizia Volontaria per la Sicurezza Nazionale) were the militant arm of the Italian Blackshirt, the CC.NN.

They swore allegiance to the Italian Fascist party, much like the German SS (Which really did it to Hitler). They were composed mostly of WWI veterans, displaced and disillusioned troopers, middle class land owners and factory workers. Their tactics of intimidation, oppression and violence inspired the Germans down the road.

The Black Shirts claimed to be the 'rightful successors' to the roman Legions and modeled themselves on the Italian heroes of WWI, the Ardeni. The Arditi were Italian Shock troopers, and held a special place in the heart of the Italian right.

When Mussolini took power with what was basically the Pasta Putsch, the CC.NN/MVSN legitimized itself as the State Milita, as the party had become the state. The CC.NN were used at the free reign of Mussolini, and fought in various Italian colonial conflicts with mixed success. Entering actual conflicts in Greece, Ethiopia and other Italian conflicts pre-Allies, the Italian Armed Forces vanguard troops were the MVSN. They were the most likely to have seen combat, be it domestically crushing protests or labor unions or serving in the Italian colonial theater. They were devoted and fanatical, but suffered from poor, well, everything basically: Organization, heavy equipment, weapons, and senior leadership.

They eventually improved, and were organized in a similar manner to the Romans organized their armies, going so far as each formation being called the correct Roman name of its contemporary; organized from contubernia to Legion.

Eventually some 340,000 men would serve in the MVSN for Italy, and were split between Army integrated units to the specialized MVSN shock Battalions that would be organized and ready for assaults on enemy defenses or to exploit breakthroughs, as well as MVSN armored units.

>>31726953
They were Italys best, but that wasnt saying a whole lot. If the MVSN of 1926 was still around in 1942 we could have had a different circumstance, but it was not. The battle hardened WWI soldiers had all gone, and all that was left were loyal men to fight for the party; a party that was rotting from the inside.

I uhhh..I actually have a difficulty thinking of a jumping off point to discuss them and the pragmaticisms of Italy vs Germanys Fascism...

>>31726953

why do fascists like to LARP so much?

>>31726953
How was their performance in regards to the standard Italian army? Did they ever see combat on the eastern front?

>>31726200

Wait, Hungary wasn't absorbed into Germany during WWII?

>>31727031
No, they were allies. German territory that was considered the legitimate border consisted of Austria, the Sudetes (then Bohemia), Western Poland. While they were planning to formally annex more territories, all the land they otherwise controlled was simply considered occupied foreign land.

>>31726984

That would be better discussed on /pol/, for reason the thread would be hilarious.

>>31726999

They were generally regarded as a mixed bag. The MVSN being the arm of the Party might be considered similar to Russian NKVD units or SS Units: Fanatical, Devoted and excellent propaganda tools, but of a mixed bag.

the troops were generally better paid, armed, and fed than their RIA conterparts, which aded their combat abilities in infantry combat, but they had little in the way of pure organic fire support or large weapons, so in the combined arms WWII, they never rightly shined as much as they might have been able to.

They did see action in the Western Front. They did horribly, like all Italian troops basically, suffering about 50% overall casualties for enlisted, 70% for NCOs and 90% for officers.

Of 340,000 frontline MVSN, 14,142 were killed in action-a pretty low percentile, given the Italians liked to use them as the tip of the spear.

There was plenty of good Italian equipment in WW2

Beretta Mod. 38
CR-42 falco
Semovente assault guns
MC-202/205
Reggiane 2005
Beretta Mod. 1934/35
Most of their AA guns
Autoblinda armored cars

Sure their army sucked but they did have some top of the line equipment available for the time..

>>31727117
They did have some good equipment but they were the exception, not the rule. A lot of the staples that an army really needs were either poorly made or obsolete. I also wouldnt say top of the line, I still think the Germans have them beat in damn near every category.

>>31726465
Holy shit are those armored cars to scale?

>>31727117
>Beretta Mod. 38

Agreed

>CR-42 falco

Subpar against modern monoplanes, best Biplane of the war, but thats kind of like having the best Pre-Dreadnought of the war.

>Semovente assault guns

If only they had more

>MC-202/205
Absolutely

>Reggiane 2005
Absolutely, if only the had more.

>Beretta Mod. 1934/35

The pistol? Basically inconsequential to the war. The Beretta 38 would be a better pick, arguable one of the best SMGs of the war.

>Most of their AA guns

Three times now, "if only they had more". They had AA guns, and they had GOOD AA guns, but they really needed more.

>Autoblinda armored cars

Agreed

>>31726502
Show us where the bad tank touched you.

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The planned P43 and P43bis would have been even better than the P40 if they ever got to production

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AUTOCANNONE
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No one mounted a 90mm gun on a truck as gracefully as the Italians did.

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Italy strong

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>>31727403

Sadly they only have the 7.5 and 2 here

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>>31723714
The Greeks had really excellent morale. Combine that with an army fighting on the defensive in their own country, makes for a pretty difficult fight. iirc even Wehrmacht couldn't dislodge them.

Not saying the Italians were great, just that Greeks were tough and very capable.

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>>31727438
>>31727450
>men of war
fucking good cunt. Some of my best WW2 LAN memories. amazing how important recon and line of sight is in that game. an officer with binocs can save your ass.

>>31727453
You're right, but the fact that the Italian invasion of Greece resulted in Greek occupation of Italian territory prior to German intervention is still pretty ridiculous.

>>31727465

It's a fantastically fun game. It's also beautiful if you use the mods that stop bodies, wrecks and debris from despawning, and start using the experimental superheavies such as the tortoise, the maus, the fucking ratte and that american 4 tracked thing, think it's the t90.

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>>31727493
I haven't played in so long, but I used to love getting in the aircraft on the airfield map and flying around bombing shit.

i would send some guys in a jeep first thing to grab an aircraft, take off then land on a dirt strip close to my base, for use later... it only sometimes worked, usually got gunned down by light vehicles while attempting to take off

>>31726652
good book anon?

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>an entire section of the army is trained purely to run and play brass instruments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0kBETseDmQ

Italy, I dont care what people say, if some Bersaglieri ran at me playing brass band music I would fucking cheer instead of shooting them.

>>31727554
not him, but its a very good book. not too dense, but with plenty of detail. Beevor is pretty based. His book on Crete and Berlin are also excellent

>>31727554
Its great, I fully recommend it.

>>31727597
>>31727574
purchased on Amazon, thanks bros

>>31723211
because the majority of them were shit.

>>31726694
One big problem in the desert was that Italian rations consisted mainly of pasta.

Needing water to prepare your food in the desert is not a good idea.

Apart from that, they didn't have great morale, training or leadership. A good general or two with a hand in training would have given them a huge boost, and helped their morale, but they just didn't really have anyone like that with a big influence on the whole army. They needed a Rommel or a Monty.

Their equipment was ok, but if you abandon your guns and tanks as soon as the enemy threatens you, it doesn't really matter how good your guns are.

Bersaglieri were the guys with the black feathers on their hats who ran and played brass instruments at the same time. iirc they were an "elite" kind of infantry

>>31723728
all dem jerry cans

>>31726694

>Bersaglieri

I should have talked about them too, they're one of the lasting bits of Italian troops.

Italy had a problem after unification (and before). It was broke. It couldn't afford many horses and what horses it could afford were better used for artillery. They lacked large horse stocks to have large cavalry forces, in addition to horses being less than effective in their northern borders.

So the Italians (more correctly pre-unififcation Kingdom of Sardinia) created the Bersaglieri. These Infantry trained rigorously to do one thing: Be marathon running infantry.

They traditionally had loose rank and file, but had rigorous physical standards and marksmanship standards. In WWI they were distinguished in service, but suffered 82,000 casualties total of 230,000 men who served in 21 Regiments.

They were used to exploit breaks in the lines of enemy defenses, much like cavalry, but may be one of the few cases of a unit with such a high level of élan that it helped them. They were fanatics in WWI, and in WWII had become part of the Italian doctrinal concept of the Celeri (Fast) regiment, where they became bicycle troops; a concept that had flaws it's own but still increased their mobility. The Bersaglieri were probably the first combined arms units of the Italians, being attached to Light Tank and Armored car units in 1939-1940, and were soon used at most Divisional levels in at least a Battalion formation.

https://archive.org/details/TME30-420

From /his/ with love.

>>31723211

Some were surprisingly good, most were amazingly shitty

>>31726465
"lanciafiamme" "camionetta" "leggero"

>>31726592
Wargaming pls go

>>31723211
>Why does no one talk about Italian
because greasy dago wops are just fair-skinned niggers

>>31727559
That's pretty dope actually

>>31726979

MSVN wasn't the Italian best in any sense. Most of the 1926 guys were still in, and that WAS a problem. They were old, badly equipped, badly led, and depended on the Royal Army for everything, from food to support. Remember that they managed to get mangled by the Ethiopians and often simply collapsed at the first shots. SOME units managed to improve mainly thanks to political motivation, but the majority had a performance inferior to even the stock units of the Royal Army. Their training heavily focused on "shock actions" and "daring assaults": without heavy support, proper fitness levels and basic tactics that ended badly in almost all cases.

If you want the Italian elite, we talk about the Alpini and the Bersaglieri. Marginally better equipment compared to the stock troops, and a shared feeling of "unit pride" and comradeship that got them fighting when everyone else gave up. They weren't Fascists, though, and in most cases not even supporters of the king: it was a simpler "honour of our unit and tradition", helped by local recruitment.

Regarding Nazism and Fascism, they aren't truly comparable in any sense. When you start studying them in depth, the amount of differences is staggering. Propaganda, organization, personal ties, problems in fighting lobbies and power groups, military balance, reforms.... they are apples and oranges.

>>31727096

Again, their losses are few mostly because they weren't used or they collapsed quickly. Data after 1943 and in the Balkans is a tad different, though. You are right in pointing out that they were built as a propaganda unit following "heroic" beliefs about WW1 combat, not WW2 or interwar realities. A common them regarding Italian units.

>>31727117

Ah. AA Guns. You mean theoretical AA guns. The AA defense grid of Italy was.... pretty much not there, and after a while they left the cities to fend for themselves. Bells and direct spotting was the best they could do, and the AA defenses themselves were too few.

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>>31724663
THICK

>>31727117

Furthermore, you have to get that they could have some fine equipment (different models of fighter planes, despite being good designs, were built by several different firms at the same time causing slowdowns and poor production numbers). Let's not even start to talk about tank production or the problems that most Italian military production required skilled workers and nothing was done to streamline or improve it, as Mussolini could not afford to anger the industrialists. Some choices are peculiar, like the refusal of developing radar or the refusal of widely employing SMGs like the MAB (that was given only to military police, the Carabinieri, for some insane reason).

>>31727486

That was another example of:

1) Terrible morale amongst the Italians, who truly felt bad to fight against an enemy that was similar to themselves in an unprovoked war of aggression, and the Fascists completely failed to build up a good propaganda campaign for that;

2) The background of the Greek campaign from the Italian side is borderline hilarious. Everything, from logistics, to planning, to officer selection was such a massive blunder that I can't stop laughing even if I pity the poor fucks that died there.

>>31727663

That's a Brit propaganda piece, by the way. The "pasta" thing. A bit more problematic was the fact that Italian troops had shit rations, that the mobile kitchens were still the ones from WW1 (so 20-30 years old) and no one improved it. Furthermore, the concept of "R&R" was alien to the Italian officer corps, and troops kept fighting for YEARS without pause. On the other hand, all the stories about Italian officer corps eating ice cream and beef while the troops were starving are true. They even tried to reform it, and the officers made a ruckus because "Better food is what make a difference between the ranks and give authority to the officer themselves".

>>31728218

Good one. Would you like to talk about Binary Divisions? That's another great subject!

MAMMA MIA ITS LIKE ANOTHER OPERATION COMPASS

>>31727178
Yes

All I know about Italy is that most of their Axis & Allies units suck.

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>>31727361
Italian engineers were greatly impressed by the only T-34 that the royal italian army managed to capture in Ukraine.
Pic related.

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>>31726592

>>31723211
>Why does no one talk about Italian WW2 weapon and vehicles?
because they were crap

>>31723674

He quite literally said "Made good tanks, but always too late."

As in, exactly what you're saying. They were good, but never for the time they ended up being ready.

>>31726502
What a fucking dumbass.

>>31732130
Looking at it I wouldnt even say that. Work began on it in 1940 and it rolled out in 43. In fact it could be argued that it was near obsolete by the time it was first completed.

As far as designs go its pretty lackluster as its a riveted medium tank with a medium velocity 75 and frontal hull armor that is only 50mm thick. At best its nothing special. That and "made good tanks, but always to late" isn't even a defense its just admitting that their designs were behind everyone else.

>>31727189

>Beretta Mod. 1934/35

I've seen people still using it as for today,we have one too or at last we had one in our house,when both gramps and grams died we found it hidden,that bright engineeringistic mind of my uncle left it hidden with both magazines loaded and a bullet in the chamber,he didn't clean it properly nor added cosmoline or something to protect it and rusted,magazine's spring are fucked,barrel is rusted,main body is from a .38 but chambered in 7.62 Tokarev.Said he used to work with firearms but he could not unload it safely and nearly discharged the round against his hand.Used one in working order and it's a fun gun to use.Too bad they want to throw it away

>Beretta Mod. 38

Aka MAB,15 years ago I went to Maricentro Maricoleva guards were still using it,I couldn't take them seriously,I mean even Carabinieri are still using the PM12S2,only once I've seen them handling an MP5 but fgs they fucking need some replacements.

Must ask to my friend who works as EOD if they handled to him the Garand or not during training

>>31727453

Greeks got overrun in a few weeks with British support. What the fuck kind of fairy tales are you reading?

Italians are just appalling at war. They are dune coon tier.

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>>31723456
>riveted armor
Ishygddt

>>31726502
I hate /pol/ too, but damn that's some butthurt anon

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>>31723211
What's a Italian WW2 weapon and vehicles mista?

>>31723597
Momma Mia that is a spicy meme.