India to Purchase Russian PakFA/FGFA

>>31625587
Doesn't matter.

Russia can't afford to finish it with the economic size of Spain.

>>31625587
>part of the program since the start
>they're STILL 'considering' picking it up

Says a lot that they haven't put in these orders yet and are still getting massive concessions from the Russians due to the quality of the airframe

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>>31625837
PakFA isn't finished yet.

You can't order something that is still in prototype phase, that is asking for trouble. See: F-35.

>are still getting massive concessions from the Russians due to the quality of the airframe

Concession is due to temporary devaluation of ruble, and Indian preference for ToT over joint-production. New deal suggests they will buy more off-the-shelf and get more ToT instead. IAF has more strategic freedom than nearly any other air-force. They can buy from anyone, yet they chose PakFA, obviously it has lot of potential.

>>31626011
>They can buy from anyone
Even from China?

>>31626215
China has nothing to offer in the first place.

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>>31625826
You must mean the state budget. Pic related is where Russia is at since the crisis. It might be even lower this year. On the other hand, vatniks being vatniks, they tried to keep the army budget as steady as possible while cutting down on healthcare, education and other 'secondary' services. Because who knows, you might get invaded by a defensive alliance despite sitting on the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. You can't go unprepared for it.

>>31626677
PakFa development was mostly finished by that point either way. Russian ruble devaluation means their purchasing power is far greater than shown. Only initial orders had to be cut. Development continues. India will provide cash infusion and guaranteed orders.

You can spend on deficit if you know you are going to sell a product and make the money back. PakFA is a safe program with funds already allocated, and more to come. What is mostly at risk is the non-nuclear submarine naval purchases.

>>31626600
They have their F-35 clone.

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>>31625587
>other BS from Janes

>>31626797

You can't really call it a clone when the strength of the F-35 is the parts you don't see visually from the outside. While the J-20 is making significant progress, we have no idea if/when the J-31 will be a competitive 5th gen aircraft.

>>31626797
F-35 is the world's most advanced engines built around an airframe.

China's engines are garbage that might actually be coal-powered. That is why they still can't export any of their planes, except to totally isolated countries that have no choice.

Hell, Iran waited out sanctions to buy Russian Su-30SMs instead of going the Chink route.

>>31626800
Compared to direct statements from officials, Jane's ''rumors'' are pretty much trash from lobbyists.

>>31626011
>see F-35
You mean the jet that has had an amazing track record through development with zero lost pilots? The aircraft that there are currently 200 of and is in service with several branches?

The PAKFA has always been teetering on the edge of cancellation. They may make it and may not, I wouldn't hold your breath.

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>>31626882
>Jane's ''rumors'' are pretty much trash from lobbyists.

>>31626907
F-35 is not a bad plane, just the development program was a disaster for a long time due to rushed decisions being made.

I don't know why people find this so difficult to understand. PakFA hasn't lost any pilots either, and the whole program probably cost less than the development budget for the F-35 tires.

PakFA development is almost finished, and will soon be exported to India, probably before 2020. Indian Airforce Chief has all but confirmed it. That is better than all the rumors from Western Lobby Shills trying to get India to buy some American planes combined.

>>31626913
>Direct Statements from officials are better than unnamed Jane '''sources'''

Yeah, I don't see it. Sorry.

>>31626971
*aren't

>>31626971

Fantastic paraphrase manipulation for something that I wasn't arguing.

>>31626958
How was the development program been a disaster?

>>31626958
>PakFA hasn't lost any pilots either,

To be fair, there's a solid difference in that respect between 6 planes with barely any flight hours vs 200 with over 50,000 flight hours total.

Lol dumb Russians. They have to produce initial batch of test aircraft to see how well they perform rather than shit out 200 uncompleted planes with glitching interface, failing engines, dysfunctional target designation system, lethal ejection seats, terminally flawed cooling lines and spontaneous self-combustion issues. God bless America.

>>31627037
>How was the development program been a disaster?

This is bait. Interviews with Pentagon officials stated that the relation and state of the program several years ago was the single worst they had ever seen. Once again, straight from the horse's mouth. Program was behind schedule, with multiple partner countries threatening to cut orders.

>>31627014
>Fantastic paraphrase manipulation for something that I wasn't arguing.

You weren't really arguing anything, then. I said specifically that since this news is straight from the highest Air Force official in India, it is vastly superior and more credible than any Jane ''unnamed source'' which is BS in comparison.

>>31627059
F-35 is much more complex with so many participating countries and weapons and requirements that need to be filled, especially given all the variants. All of their benchmarks and tests need to verified confirmed with every partner. This is heightened by the fact that several countries like Israel want to ensure compatibility with their own stuff, and expect America to foot the bill (like always).

PakFA is par for course for a single fighter that is being developed by one country with one unified weapons package and avionics. India will add more tests and benchmarks when they start adding in their own stuff, and development will be extended.

>>31627086
Literally all of those problems are either fixed, non problems, or will be fixed by the time the aircraft reaches FOC.

Lol dumb Americans put out jets that actually enter service.

>>31627158
>how was it bad?
>they said it was bad
Not an answer my friend

>>31627086
Yup.

Having so many air-frames before testing was finished was NOT a conscious decision.

It was because development had fallen so far behind the intended production schedule that Lockheed Martin didn't have a choice but to start building them, lest they let the facility run empty for several years losing billions.

When the original program was devised, most countries were supposed to already have gotten F-35s by now. Most will receive them 5-10 years later than expected.

Once again, this isn't knocking on the F-35 capabilities, but that fact that its development program was initially a total disaster. This is on record with several high-level officials going all the way to the top of the DoD and Pentagon.

>>31627158
>You weren't really arguing anything, then. I said specifically that since this news is straight from the highest Air Force official in India, it is vastly superior and more credible than any Jane ''unnamed source'' which is BS in comparison.

Again with the asserting things I haven't said. I did not state anything about the India official not being credible, what I did take issue with was you saying that Jane's spouts random BS without proof.

>>31627176
>https://youtu.be/FkSDRDg8y8Q?t=16

>'Long gone is the time from when we will continue to pay for mistake after mistake after mistake'
>The program was behind schedule, over-budget, and relations with LM borders on 'Dis-functional'.
>'I am on record standing up and saying it was the worst relationship I had seen in my acquisition career.'

Straight from the Pentagon Official overseeing the entire project. I still don't know if you are pretending to be retarded or just this stupid.

>>31627246
Jane's random 'rumors' mill articles ARE BS compared to real statements on record.

I don't know why you are getting so caught up in semantics, you don't work there do you?

>>31627214
This is pretty par for the course in terms of aircraft development friendamundo. God news the PAKFA hasn't gone swimmingly.


The F-35 has always been planned to be developed through concurrency. It lets you find out problems before they're actually problems.
So instead of
>800 F-16s produced
>oh wait guys the vertical stab is fucked up re-design the whole tail on all existing aircraft
>oh wait the engines are literally killing pilots left and right we need new engines
>$$$

We have
>$
>100 test F-35s that can also reach IOC
>they rack up tons of test flight hours, much more than if there were only 6 flying, this allows them to notice problems quickly
>a problem is found
>that problem is fixed on all existing and future aircraft.

Pros of this:
Safer
Potentially cheaper in the long run
Safer for the program

Cons
Takes longer
Costs more in the short term

>>31627282
None of that states why Lockheed Martin had to start production while testing was still ongoing.

The original plan and timescale suited when they started production. Since development was overextended, and production could not be delayed, they had to make undesirable decision to produce potentially problematic aircraft.

F-35 was ALWAYS going to have more test-production aircraft due to the higher ambitions of the program (multi-variants, multi-partners, joint-production, multi-requirements, multi-partner weapons integration, extra avionics integration, paying for Israel's development and special snowflake demands, extra carrier testing, extra naval testing). Once again, this has nothing to do with starting production so early before development finished, LM never wanted to do that in the first place. Nor did anyone who was working on the project.

>Its another "India is almost pretty much kinda nearly buying this" thread

fuck off

>>31625587
>straight from their Air Chief

So worthless tattle.

>>31627367
Nearly all of those were Lobbyist articles stating why India should by such and such, not real confirmation from high-ranking officials.

When Indian officials confirmed they wanted the Rafale, they bought the Rafale. Now they are confirming PakFA, what do you think is going to happen? Negotiations are finished according to their highest official.

>>31627412
>Indian officials

The government. Not some air shitter covered with ropes and sequins like a gay ballroom bellboy.

>>31627412
What the guy actually said was that the two sides are BELIEVED to have come to an agreement.

I could give two shits

>>31627356
You really don't understand LRIP.

It's to balance time and safety.

Having 5 prototypes can work and you can enter production in the same time frame but you're more likely to encounter major problems after you've built a ton of airframes my

Instead
>build a couple jets
>find a lot of problems
>build a couple more jets
>find less problems
>build a lot of jets
>barely any problems

>>31627436
>>31627439
>Still being in denial that India isn't going for PakFA

Last time he 'believed' something they bought an initial order for 36 Rafales, with an unknown number to follow. Keep 'believing' that you actually know what you are talking about, and aren't just retarded.

>>31627261

Do I really have to keep repeating myself? This is not semantics. You keep saying I am asserting something that I am not.

Agaun, on what grounds do you state that Jane's spews propaganda BS?

>>31627470
I'm sure they "believed" they were buying many more Rafales with ToT years ago too, kek

>>31627469
The number of F-35s built so early before production began is not indicative of intended LRIP production.

+200 is nearly 10% of the entire procurement program.

>>31627483
>Moving goalposts
>Fatnik in denial

So arguably even more confirmed than before just going off of meme magic.

>>31627470
>they bought an initial order for 36 Rafales

After years of bullshit. They will not all be operational until 2024. Even then the whole thing could still fall apart on the offsets. At that rate it would be 2035 before they got another buy together.

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>>31627516
>Making things up on the internet
>Being this butthurt

IAF went from 24 Su-30MKI initial order, to +240 in 10 years, from when the first contract was signed.

>>31626797

The F-35 clone is just that. A shell which has the external shape of an F-35, but none of the advanced technologies and systems.

>>31627554
>Making things up

There is a 50% offset as part of the contract. The deal has been going around in circles for years. So French industry have to agree to waste €4bn on Indian defense contractors, buying their shitty components and wasting money on "research facilities" where useless streetshitters sit around playing computer games.

>>31627494
>fatnik

Why is it every thread of Russia there is one person who constantly post this?
I don't see it on /pol/ either, is it some kind of new meme or are these posts all from the same really butthurt person?

>>31627623
>There is a 50% offset as part of the contract

You are actually retarded. The offsets were there primarily to setup the necessary infrastructure to facilitate future purchases. All this is par for course, following the textbook Su-30MKI purchases a decade ago. The large-scale purchase agreements are why the initial contracts take so long in the first place. They never only buy what is in the initial contract.

You are just clutching for straws at this point. It is time to stop posting.

>>31627672
>The offsets were there primarily to setup the necessary infrastructure

Bullshit. It is a €4bn bribe you dumb fuck.

>facilitate future purchases

There are no further purchases.

>The large-scale purchase agreements are why the initial contracts take so long in the first place.

It is India, everything takes forever. Defense procurement takes years and years because there are so many different sets of thieves to pay off. Are you some streetshitter trying to explain how your country is not a gaggle of thieving, bribe-absording shitmonkeys?

>>31627487
>number built before production began
When do you think production began?

Are you trying to say that there are pre production F-35s? There aren't, that's the point.

>>31627653
>Why is it every thread of Russia there is one person who constantly post this?

Perhaps in response to the vicious attacks on anyone discussing anything Russian with anything less than contempt as a Vatnik, even though most people on here are not Russian??

You sling shit, it comes around..

>>31627768
>Bullshit. It is a €4bn bribe you dumb fuck.
>Dassault paying 50% of their contract in bribes

So you think the French are paying half of their contract and virtually all their profits as bribes so that they can lose money?

It is time to stop posting, I am not going to waste my time responding to you anymore Fatnik, you are actually retarded. And I don't mean that in a nice way, I mean as in you need some serious help.

>>31627792
>Are you trying to say that there are pre production F-35s? There aren't, that's the point.

+200 Aircraft, or 10% of the total order, just for development and testing is unbelievably wasteful. They have to be pre-production, there is no way that got past the Pentagon and Congressional Budgeting Office.

>>31627985
>assumes everyone that dislikes Russia is American

seems ironic

>>31628136
>10% of the total order
That would imply an end total of 2,000 F-35s, which is far below current expectations. The US alone is planning to buy ~2,500.

And hell, we ended up making over 4,500 F-16s and are still making them, and the F-35 is shaping up to most likely have a similar legacy as far as international use goes.

>>31627653
Probably one or two really buttblasted anons. Ever since they showed up any discussion of Russian hardware is pretty much impossible because they turn every thread they touch into shitflinging.

>>31627985
I've mostly seen Russians initiating the shitposting recently though. I imagine they're doing it to try and head off others doing it first, still not exactly helpful.

Also this anon >>31628158 is right, I know there's at least one Brit poster that also shits on Russian equipment all the time.

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So are the Indians haggling like no tommorow for both the the PAKFA and Rafale but then dupe one of them when they have a better deal?

>>31628365
The PAK FA has the big advantage of giving India the prestige of operating a fifth generation fighter. In terms of actual capability I don't think the PAK FA actually has that large of a leg up on the Rafale, except hypothetically a more powerful radar. And the Rafale has it's own advantages with things like Meteor and Spectra.

>>31628136
>200 aircraft just for development and testing

You have no idea what you're talking about.

There are 200 for development and testing right now, there will soon be 300 for development and testing. The number will until it reaches FOC, then it'll drop to only the squadrons involved in gathering flight data and testing new software.


The 200 aircraft currently used for testing aren't "just for testing." The VAST majority of them (only excluding maybe 10 or so) will reach FOC and fly with operational squadrons.


There are no F-35 prototypes, excluding the X-35. All "test" F-35s are capable of reaching FOC goals once upgraded. This is the opposite of what the PAKFA is doing, apparently, which is to make a couple of prototype aircraft and then enter production.

If the PAKFA has any number of issues that aren't addressed before production is started, they're fucked.


The Chinks are doing the same as the F-35 with their J-20, it's the smart thing to do. You have no idea how LRIP works.

>>31628392
PakFA is better suited for air supremacy, and high altitude combat and escort missions.

Dassault designed Rafale as an omnirole, with better precision striking capability and low level strikes SEAD/DEAD.

You can't really compare the two.

>>31628455
>and low level strikes SEAD/DEAD.

You'd think they'd give it an anti-radiation missile then.

>>31625587
INDIA SHOULD ONLY BUY THE RAFALE! THE RAFALE IS BETTER THAN THE T-50 PAK FA IN EVERY ASPECT!

>>31628212
>I've mostly seen Russians initiating the shitposting recently though

There's no way you can discern that without country flags.

That's why it's important for this place to adopt flags.

>>31628487
Being hysterical doesn't help. The Rafale is a solid competitor against the PAK FA.

>>31628478
Well they did just fine in Libya.

Although it was probably a dumb idea to get involved in the first place.

>>31628612
The US were primarily the ones who dismantled the Libyan air defenses, using an initial massive Tomahawk strike followed by forces of Growlers, B-2s, and F-16Js and F-15Es.

Don't get me wrong, the Rafale is very survivable against SAMs thanks to it's fantastic EW suite, especially older ones which are never going to touch it, but it's not really equipped to actually destroy enemy air defenses.

>>31627768
-Contract signed has less than 3bn worth of actual fighters in it, but calls for 2bn worth of India specific modifications to be developed for the platform
-Support infra that they are setting up in the two air bases where these initial 2x18 are to be based is in both of them specced to handle Rafale fleet 5 times larger
-Massive offset-clauses geared towards getting Indian aviation industry to the state where it can actually do the subcontracting work that is needed by domestic Rafale manufacturing
-Indian air force still needs 100-200 Rafale type fighters in the near future in addition to these 36, Indian Navy is looking for ~50
>There are no further purchases, r-right guys?
If you still think so just do us a favour and noose yourself

>>31628478
>>31628677

The idea comes back once in a while here, but the Spectra/AASM combo worked just fine so far and in these times of constrained budget it wasn't considered a priority. Keep in mind the french air force is so confident with it that they planned to use it (in addition to cruise missiles for static targets like radars) to perform entry first above syria in 2013 when they cancelled the strike while the planes were already in flight. They know that at some point they will need a dedicated antiradar missile but so far no air defense was considered worth it. Of course, better have and not need than loosing planes due to excessive confidence, so I'm not entirely happy with this state of affair, but at least the planes and ammunitions are pretty good, and you have to note the confidence of the air force upper echelons in the plane. Fuck F-22 stealth, fuck Prowler power jamming, they were about to fuck shit with Rafales and nothing else. I'm so sad it didn't happen just to see how it would have turned against the Syrian air defense network which was far from entirely shitty and ruined by civil war at that point.

>>31629590
Understandable I suppose. It's a good enough set-up against older SAMs.

I hope they do get on the train though. OATK recently came out with an extended range HARM, which has a whopping 300km range (and can be carried in an F-35's weapons bay, not that France cares). That combined with the exercise last year showing it has capability against moving ship targets I hope is enough to entice them. I know France likes to build their own toys, but i'm not sure they're going to get anything better than that right now.

>>31627474
>on what grounds do you state that Jane's spews propaganda BS
That time they said T-50 and Su-35S share radar and engine. Since then Jane's is pretty much somewhere around dailymail tier.