Why Hollowpoints?

>>31592620
>belly
bullet.

>>31592620
Fuck. Forgot to add
>HPs penetrate less compared to FMJ

Basically the question is why sacrifice penetration to gain a negligible increase in wound channel that may or not be realized?

>>31592620
why not?

>>31592620
Hollow points are perfect for someone who's hollow on the inside

>>31592620
Shut your mouth before I fuck it

Because it's not fucking negligible you retard child.

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>>31592686
You sacrifice penetration for little to nothing in return. I am asking why I should sacrifice penetration.

If pic related needs to get put down I want a bullet that punches through more shit before stopping rather than one which expands and spent make it to vital organs.

>>31592732
Then carry fmj. I don't give a shit what you carry.

>>31592717
>0.6 inch channel vs. 0.38 inch

You gain 0.1 on either side. That is not much.

Add in the fact that hollowpoints don't expand reliable in the real world due to clothes, bones, etc. and you aren't getting much.

>>31592732
You'll need at least eight scoops of bullets per bullet to stop that man anyway, it doesn't matter what type you use

>>31592752
All I am asking for is the factual basis behind the use of haollowpoints. Where is the data showing that expansion increases incapacitation based on actual data? I can't find it, but it may exist.

I presented a case for why HPs should not just be blindly accepted and rather than present a counter argument you post this shit. Kill yourself.

>>31592732
penetration is only important is a gun fight where people are behind cover. over penetration is not only bad for things behind the homeinvader but also means the bullet just puches trough the guy which is a lot of wasted energy/force. what you want is for the bullet to deliever most of the energy/force on target. that only happens when is expands and gets stuck. and if HP fails to expant it's still as good as ball.

>>31592788
I don't really disagree, but can you at least understand what I am getting at?

I carry hollowpoints, but I can't actually find anything that uses evidence to justify their use over ball ammo. Everyone just says they are better because of expansion, but no one actually proves that expansion increases incapacitation. Maybe I am looking in all the wrong places, this would seem like important data because a lot of money is spent on HP ammo by both manufacturers and consumers.

>>31592761
Look at the area of the wound channel

0.38" bullet wound channel = 0.11" squared
0.60" bullet wound channel = 0.28" squared

The hollow point gives you roughly 250% increase in bullet surface area. This translates to higher likelihood of hitting critical organs as well as a larger wound channel for the person to bleed out from if you miss the vitals.

Ill take the hollow points. We won't stop you from using FMJ.

>>31592620
You realize it's not just to stop them from overpenetrating the bad guy, it's also to stop them from overpenetrating objects around/behind him? Picture this:

>At home in an apartment
>Bad guy breaks in
>You magdump FMJ in his general direction
>Apartment on the other side of the hall is lightly occupied by a small Mexican family of about 30 people
>The 7-8 shots you missed with completely penetrate like 5 rooms worth of the cheap apartment building drywall
>The 4-5 shots you DID hit with penetrate like 3 rooms worth
>Like 12 shots fired, 20 casualties

That's the gist of it, man. Hollowpoint hits wall = hollow point stops. Obviously the example I gave is hyperbole, but even if you're in a nice suburban neighborhood you can easily shoot from your house directly into the next house over and still have enough energy to kill someone if you're using FMJ.

>>31592674
The whole point is to impede penetration. You dont want exit wounds.

>>31592620
I heard on a true crime podcast that you're more likely to get a longer sentence if you shoot someone with hollow points. It's more demonstrative of a premeditated murder. I wonder if that's true.

>>31592814
The energy is mostly expended in deformation of the bullet, not increased damage to the target.

Most defensive shooting have very low hit rates. Overpenetration is a meme. Bullets that miss are far more dangerous than ones that go in one side and out the other. If this concerns you I suggest you switch to blunt objects to defend yourself.

>>31592814
can't type for shit today

>>31592847
Sounds like fuddlore

>>31592842
>Hollowpoint hits wall = hollow point stops
Prove it. A hollow point won't expand in sheetrock.

Honestly I been wondering that myself, just listening to people talk about firearms kind of makes me want to run out and get a doublestack 9mm. Same when it comes to ballistic math stuff it until I think more about the metrics used. I could write an essay how a lot of the current thinking relies on a few perimeters but doesn't really account for a few things that are factors that make hollowpoints useful.>>31592826 like this, but a hollow point that might be pointed at an organ might not break through bone to get to an organ. It's one of the reasons why I went with a caliber that uses heavier bullets. Hollowpoint designs have a history of either fragmenting and breaking apart, or simply not expanding. The former seems cruel to me and the latter gives up a lot of bullet weight (people like fast bullets, but what's the point if an expanding round doesn't expand that speed is hitting diminishing returns because there's an upper end of how fast it's going to go from a hand gun vs energy from a heavier projectile impacting.

>>31592847
Complete bullshit.

>>31592868
>I could write an essay how a lot of the current thinking relies on a few perimeters... that are factors that make hollowpoints useful
but doesn't really account for a few things
ugh i should edit stuff when im drinking

>>31592844
This anon just said increased wound channel means more bleeding. I will accept this, though that is not a reliable incapacitator unless you hit an artery as it takes too long. >>31592826

However, bleeding from two holes is better than one, so both can't be true.

>>31592854
>The energy is mostly expended in deformation of the bullet
not true. where did you get this idea from?

>Overpenetration is a meme
rather than present a counter argument you post this shit. kill yourself.

>>31592732
Muscle doesn't stop bullets, Mythbusters tested this shit.

>>31592868
As long as you get a hollowpoint bullet that meets FBI standards or exceeds them then they will have plenty of power to get through any bone.

>>31592792
Well since you want data why don't you present some first. You gave use anecdotal blah blah but you want us to do research for you and present a factual data driven argument? List your own data to backup your argument lazy ass.
Oh and thanks for the wishes for my continued good health.

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Why not alternate between hallowpoint and FMJ in the magazine?

>>31592868
Thanks for not just repeating memes. I am not saying hollowpoints are bad, just that I haven't actually seen an evidence based case for them. It is always overpentration, increase wound channel (the only reasonable one even though blood loss is not a reliable threat stopper due to the time it takes), and energy being expended in the target (this fails to acknowledge that most of that energy is expended in deformation of the bullet itself).

>>31592847
Maybe 30 years ago, nowadays hollowpoints are the norm for defensive handguns

>>31592899
Your neigbor suing you for damaging his house in self defence in addition to the attackers family is worse than your attacker bleeding out a little slower.

>>31592966
>energy is expended in deformation of the bullet itself
Even if that would be correct: if you have an exit wound there is also energy lost. The only significant negative you pointed out about HP is the risk of failure to feed.

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>>31592620
they make pretty flowers

>>31593051
I need one of these for my desk at work

>>31592928
Okay tell me why you trust FBI tests with your life?
I'm not going to say I know better than the FBI they been testing stuff with lots of people and lots of different equipment for a long time. But I'm curious why you're okay with it, what does that test mean to you? What do you think that confirms a bullet doing in a fight?

>>31592966
I'm not even trying to say they're bad either although I think the fragmenting ones are cruel if that person doesn't die and someone has to patch them up.

Increased wound channels is a good thing but I don't trust they do that if they hit a barrier like bones. Nature had lots of time to improve bones to protect organs. HP's are good against flesh but that's really only if they expand.

I really agree with energy being used from the bullet to expand, it's not a bad thing in theory and it is the principal of how HP's work consistently but I don't have a math or physics knowledge to really confirm at what point where a heavier grain projectile hitting something imparts more energy than a smaller one moving faster. It should be an easier math question but I don't really need to answer it either I just personally think a heavier fatter projectile is okay. even if I lose capacity or speed on it. musket balls were big and heavier and I doubt anywhere near getting the FPS as some modern rounds but were quite devastating and effective.

>>31593044
But you now have a second hole for blood loss.

I carry a 17 round mag loaded with 150gr Federal HST 9mm and my backup mag is a 17+2 loaded with 147gr flat-point FMJ for barrier penetration (cars, huge dudes, walls, etc).

>>31593110
Did you just imply that any noticeable evolutionary advancement has occured since the invention of bullets? Are you fucking serious?

>>31593111
What are you shooting, a derringer? If he's still fighting, shoot him again.

>>31593149
He is saying that your organs are protected as a result of evolution and that hollow points need to punch through them to reach the organs.

>>31592620
I have a Walther PPK so I don't use hollowpoints. I'd rather take the extra penetration over a a bigger wound channel in that scenario.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v92Sj4XVKNw
any more questions?

>>31593110
Because I think the FBI and law enforcement in general knows what a bullet needs to do when it hits somebody.

The FBI shoot a lot of people on a regular basis so I trust their judgement when they say a bullet meets their standards.

>>31593178
That doesn't disprove my point. Are two holes not better than one for blood loss?

>>31593187
watermelons are not people tyrone

>>31593192
>appeal to authority

If you don't know just says so. That is the whole point of this thread.

>>31593179
I don't see that being a massive detriment unless you're using a single shot weapon.

>>31592732
Synthol doesn't make men bulletproof.

Neither does muscle.

>>31593187
If I am ever attacked by melons I will keep this in mind.

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>>31592620
THANK YOU for posting this thread. I immediately called the FBI, CIA, DEA, DHS and other agencies that carry pistols regularly. I read them this post and in every case my call was escalated to the highest ranking officer available. Each one of them thanked me profusely for this BRILLIANT revelation and they informed me, one after the other, that they would be ELIMINATING all JHP bullets from their inventory.

A BIG shoutout to OP and his/her/its brilliant "light bulb" moment that was not at all of huge fucking waste of time. We can all safely throw away our holow points and return to using ball ammo.

My next calls will be to the major ammo manufacturers to read them OP's post and after they see the light, they will STOP MAKING all the useless hollow point ammunition. This will simplify everything, and make our self defense pistols BETTER because we will finally be rid of hollow points forever.

>>31593197
Yes. But you dont have to rely on the holes being on opposite sides of the person if you have idk... more bullets.

>>31593241
look kids autism

>>31593224
No one said bulletproof, but there are many more inches of flesh to pass through before anything vital is within reach.

The FBI standards that everyone dutifully worships prove my point. The single most significant criteria is penetration. Everything else is secondary.

The question is does the hollow point offer sufficient and reliable benefits to out weigh decreased penetration.

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>>31593241
Thankfully OP was here to save the day

>>31593241
>Appeal to authority

Come back when you can formulate an argument.

>>31593214
Well it makes sense. Do what the people who shoot people for a living do.

>>31593202
>>31593234
i know you are just shitposting but: it's a model to show the difference in performance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kbFoXJfhIE

>>31593252
Yes, but why not have both? FMJ vs HP doesn't affect magazine capacity. You are introducing a strawman.

>>31593291
Are you still here babysitting your useless thread OP?

Next up: Why use air? We know people breathe it, but what good does it really do?

>>31593274
>>31593291
carry ball then, if you dont believe that the FBI standards for penetration (12 inches through clothes and light obstacles) are real / good enough and you dont think an expanding bullet is a good thing when it will still penetrate enough to hit vital organs then get ball

>>31593324
Air is very bad sometimes. if you breathe too much of it you can get light headed, dizzy, and over-oxygenate your blood.

restricting your air intake is vital to health.

>>31593302
>i know you are just shitposting
I'm really not. Melons are not a scientific test. You don't know that both melons were comparable in water content, rind thickness, etc. I know it sounds like I am joking, but I'm not. You also have no idea how that translates to human anatomy. People won't fracture like a melon rind, so most of what you see as impressive difference is not applicable.

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>>31592620
.45 acp is able to expand to 1 inch diameter with certain bullets and still maintain 14-15 inches of penetration.

1 inch diameter.

Big bullets hit more shit

>>31593345
But without enough air, we can actually die. Have enough studies been done to show that air is actually important enough to generally regard it as the best solution for everyday life?

Discuss.

>>31592732
Wealthy piano is probably going to die in a couple of years any way you don't need a bullet to put him down

>>31592620
>hollowpoints
Motherfucker the best self defense ammo is HE.

>>31593375
>studies
nice appeal to authority

>>31593369
What bullets can do that?

>>31593383
Citing sources is now an appeal to authority

T. Master baiter

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>>31593365
>most of what you see as impressive difference is not applicable
>most
yes that's why i called it a model. but you just admitted yourself that there is a least a little difference. so there's your reason why HP is better.

>>31593414
>sources
>he thinks just because some random scientist said we need air to live means its 100% true

Enough autism!
http://www.quantitativeammunitionselection.com
Read this book and STFU about your ignorant, drunken pleb ideas or KYS. I don't care which one.

>>31592899

From one bullet, yes -- blood loss is too slow.

From five or six placed in the high chest, rapid blood loss will cause unconsciousness (and later death) pretty quickly even though there's nothing there that will instantly kill them. Greater volume in the wound channel only helps here, as does the cutting action of the bullet (as opposed to the piercing action of smooth FMJ without a meplat).

Modern hollowpoints that aren't shit (Hornady) in calibers that aren't shit (.380 and below) expand reliably. In real shootings, they tend to end up in one of three places:

a) Under the skin where the exit wound should be (skin is roughly equivalent to about 3.5"-4" of ballistic gel -- tougher to get through when the bullet's already passed through skin, bone, muscle, and organs).
b) In the exit wound or in the clothing behind the exit wound (i.e. round barely broke the skin).
c) A few feet away on the ground.

Contrary to what /k/ seems to believe, what they don't do is stop 6" away from the heart because they only got 14" of penetration in 4LD-covered gel whereas ball got 20". The fact that when they do completely exit the body, they're so robbed of velocity that they're frequently found lying on the ground a few feet away is a pretty big benefit from a safety/liability angle.

The other benefit is that good JHP from good manufacturers is often subject to much tighter QC/QA controls than ball ammo. Good primers, good powder, proper powder charges, etc. That's not to say you can't get a bad round of Gold Dot, but it's a lot less likely than with WWB.

>>31593252
That's not how bullets work.
>>31593324
I actually like this thread. It's not useless guy is just asking questions. People take it as a personal attack if we say they're wrong and sometimes it's just the way how they said it rather than what they said. Example of the latter, pot heads are usually some of the most dangerous violent drug addicts. It seems like trolling or shit posting but it's a fact.

>>31593403
Winchester ranger T-series 230 grains.

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>>31593434
Lets test my hypothesis

Enter my gas chamber please

>>31593383
>the scientific method proves nothing!

>>31593403

HSTs come pretty close in bare gel, though 4LD is a more realistic representation of what they look like in actual shootings (IIRC they get about .70-.80 there -- still very good).

>>31593375
>>31593375
I have used air since I was born, and also before that in oxygenated liquid form. However, I think we should re-visit the topic of "how much is too much?" We know that air "works" but how? Is it really the best choice vs other gases, or mixtures of air with other gases that may suffice?

i have breathed helium, carbon dioxide, and various fumes and yet here i am. Why not use less expensive gases to breathe instead of relying on air?

>>31593444
Definitely, pot heads are always the ones doing "smash and grabs" and beating the shit out of old ladies. i agree we should accept that model as true unconditionally and also continue this good thread for the next 10 days or until we hit limit.

Here's another point of discussion: If hollowpoints are actually hollow, how can they have any effect? It's just air in the hollow part. Why not have a solid instead? It would stand to reason that ball ammo would be much better because it has MUCH less air.

this is such a fun thread i agree. and i have nothing to do because i am a neet who lives in basement.

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>>31593466
sumbody cawl da Ay Dee Ell

>>31593437
>using water as a model

Nigger have you ever seen a human body? Vital organs are protected by bones, have large hollow spaces, and is all covered by as very elastic skin.

This is useful, but completely insufficient.

>>31593472
I bet you think you can 100% prove to me that I exist too, come back when you have a real argument
>hollowpoint fags, when will they learn

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>>31593491
There is nothing to be afraid of friend

>>31593494
don't forget there is a great deal of air inside of the human body. While we are 80% water, the other 20% roughly would have to be air.

therefore air would be needed to defeat air - so the hollowpoint, having a great deal of air inside of it, would be the best choice. "Defeat elements with the same element" is the basic Chinese model of war.

However, ball ammo clearly outperforms hollowpoints in every aspect. so it's a mute point per se, and non-irrelevant.

>>31593433
dubs of truth

>>31592620
>Negligible expansion
>Not reliable
My Speer gold dots in .40 s&w go from .4 to .8 inches, that shit ain't negligible. And any good brand expands reliably.
There's extra checking and qc to make sure every round goes off and is consistent, and my p30 has no problems with hollow points. Whatever round hits I want to do maximum damage.

>>31593489
>are always the ones doing "smash and grabs" and beating the shit out of old ladies
ask the next one you meet if he's a pot head
if you ask in the right way you'll get a YES or no. i would bet it's a yes unless he thinks your fishing to fuck him on something

>>31593540
I find it interesting that so many resort this sort of shitposting when a legitimate question is raised. Having no clue why they believe what they believe, they chimp out and make ridiculous statements in an attempt to discredit the questions raised. Why?

>>31593568
How many niggers have you dug bullets out of to verify expansion diameter and reliability?

>>31593583
I find you interesting, anon. Let's get together and have some interesting babies

>>31593310
I don't niggers having problems killing each other with cheapo hps. If i want to defend myself while significantly reducing the risk of collateral damage to people or property why wouldnt I. Unless I lived in corpus christi texas i wouldn't be obsessed with penetration

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>>31592620
Yeah we'll miss. I think the main advantage for a hollowpoint is a significant benefit in terms of wound channel. Let's run through some simple maths. Let's assume it pierces 16" since that's our benchmark.

An FMJ round will, assuming entire tissue destruction along the wound channel from edge to edge of the bullet, destroy approximately 6.3 cubic inches of tissue. Obviously the actual figure is significantly lower, but they scale appropriately so this will be used.

Anyway. 6.3 cubic inches for an FMJ.

If we plug Speer Gold-Dot into the equation with a comparable 16", their tests averaged the expanded rounds to be 0.63" across, which yields ~20 cubic inches of destroyed tissue.

To put this into perspective, this is about the same gap as between a slim jim and a hotdog in terms of actual damage.

Bigger holes are what we want, and hollowpoints give us bigger holes. Overpenetration protection is a perk, but bigger hole means a better chance of hitting something important and faster bleeding from more tissue damage.

The feed issues you mentioned are a valid concern, but firing a box of hollowpoint to verify function is all you really need to make sure it won't jam.

Of course if you don't trust JHP, feel free to carry soft-points or FMJ instead. It's better to trust your gun than doubt it. As for me, I'll be sticking with JHP since I know it cycles properly in my pistol.

>>31593610
Odds are that you will miss more than you hit. This holds true for trained professionals as much as random faggots like your and I. Overpentration is not a valid concern.

>>31593599
how many niggers have you dug hollow points out of to come to the conclusion that they do not expand reliably?

>>31593616
>assuming entire tissue destruction along the wound channel from edge to edge of the bullet

Permanent cavities are generally not terribly different between various handgun rounds so I don't know how valid this assumption is, though I do agree that wound channel is the most compelling argument for the HP bullet.

>Handgun rounds are really only effective when they strike vitals

Stopped reading your retarded post right there.

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>>31593583
>why?

well OP (presuming you're OP, still riding this wave of shit your thread created)

Since you have no clue as to what the fuck you're talking about I'll explain!

Here's what you did:

1. You took a tested-to-death, standardized and highly improved on model of projectile and posted a thread about it, asking "Why use these?"

2. You then followed the question by sarcasm: "muh overpenetration", adding a little more edge to your shit thread that was already bursting to the brim with time-wasting inquiry.

3. you then proceed to criticize anyone who dared to poke fun at your time-wasting, misdirected thread, instead of realizing that you were creating yet another worthless, circle jerking argument thread that burns up our time and energy.

Some pointers:

If you are questioning something that professional agencies world-wide have meticulously refined, exhaustively researched, and adopted as a standard model, you can make a thread asking about the finer points of "hollow points" with an interesting thread title like this:
"are there any situations where ball ammo might be a better option than hollow point, for defense"?

With this approach you come across as a genuine human being who is not an edgy teenager who thinks he will disprove the world's standards and find the cure to stupidity by making fuckass threads on a weapons board.

>>31592847
that attorney would be really stretching to push premeditated murder by using hollow points, premeditated is like scratching their name into the casing and a gangland-style execution

>>31593641
Largely anecdotal, but hollowpoints are known to perform differently than gel might suggest.

Trayvon Martin is an example that I can provide you with. They obviously did the job there, but the corners report notes fragmentation and jacket separation.
http://lawofselfdefense.com/zimmerman-trial-evidentiary-flashback-autopsy-report-clinical-cause-of-death-of-trayvon-martin/

>>31593686
Did your eyes get tired? Are you seriously going to challenge that point?

>>31593760
Maybe he remembered that bullets passing through large veins tend to cause people to die.

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>>31593655

>someone didn't go full shit-for-brains because I tried to use some basic maths

Anyway, the assumption isn't because of permanent vs temporary cavitation, but simply more of a measure of making the maths simple as it's very hard to find sufficient data. I did forget to actually think about the temporary versus permanent cavity, thank you!

So on to that. The permanent cavity will be significantly bigger as it is, frankly, a bigger goddamn bullet. Temporary will be comparable, as it's comparable energy if not a bit higher due to higher velocity (KE = mv^2 with mass in kg and velocity in m/s).

JHPs move faster too due to a hotter loading, which means we have more force behind said bullet so even if it doesn't expand, it's still a harder-hitting round than a standard ball projectile.

I'm glad you agree, I just left a big chunk out of what I wrote up there. I entirely forgot about our friend temporary wound cavity.

>>31592847

Then why do LEO's use them senpai?

>>31593720
Are you sure the sun revolves around the earth?
>If you are questioning something that professionals world-wide have meticulously refined, exhaustively researched, and adopted as a standard model, you can make a thread that doesn't ask for the basis of this conclusion and in no way questions the assumptions therein.

>>31593616
Forgot to annotate this is assuming 9mm, as that's what people seem to be looking at particularly.

With other calibers, the same trend holds true though. JHP makes bigger holes than FMJ.

>>31593777
Large veins and arteries aren't vital? Wew

>>31593817
Yes! That's why they call them "Vital Veins". Good call anon

>>31593760
>>31593817

Or fucking bullets to the anything will cause whatever the fuck you shor to freak out?

Seriously how dumb are you?

>>31593734
Thats such a fucking fudd myth its rediculous.

Im pretty sure i remember several people who know diddly about guns saying dumb shit like "hurr dont use those, they can get you for murder"

>>31592620
>HPs offer a negligibly wider wound channel
Like from .357 caliber to .500 caliber with 2 times more of wound channel cross section area?

>>31593632
It is when you have neighbors

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cant tell if troll or not but il bite

hollow points are good for expanding, but why do they expand. so they can dump the entire amount of energy into the target. the deform and push all the energy of that round into the culturally enriched fellow stealing your tv.

FMJ wont, it wants to stay together so it it goes through the target that bullet still has all that energy wasted.

thats about the jist of it, and why i carry federal HST. they expand the same way and same amount every single time, great round.

>>31593632
>Overpentration is not a valid concern

Yet another brilliant revelation

>>31592854

>Overpenetration is a meme

Which is exactly why SWAT and FBI ditched the 9mm MP5 in urban and sub-urban environments in favor of .223 AR-15s after discovering 9mm over-penetrated more.

>>31592674
You're forgetting the destructive shockwave that results from all that lost velocity.

>>31593940
Shh don't bring reason into this thread !

>>31593870
>hollow points can get you on murder charges
i mean, yes: but, the act of firing a gun at someone, regardless of bullet specs, can get you in a position where you could be charged with murder

>>31593916
What round is gonna pass through 2 layers of sheet rock, a layer of stucco and a brick wall, into stucco, through two layers of sheet rock and THEN kill my neighbor?

>>31593983
More precious, valuable knowledge itt

It's like a treasure trove in here

ITT people who don't carry a gun arguing with people who don't understand math about who knows more about the random chaos that is a bullet hitting a body.

>>31593999
>trips check'd
we're putting in work and it's all for the kids

>>31593983
No shit. I figured we were just talking if it were a good shoot, then just having hallow points isnt going to matter

>>31593992
You're right anon- everyone has brick walls, nobody has 1/2 drywall, fiberglass insulation, 1/2 OSB, and vinyl siding

NOBODY!

>>31594019
Brick wall is the property wall...
Sheet rock is drywall

So let me rework it.


What round is going through at the very least 1 layer of drywall, fiberglass insulation, 1/2 OSB, and vinyl siding

And STILL KILLING SOMEONE

>>31594053
https://youtu.be/h0ACX6ZcqTU?t=3m19s

Pistols suck at killing things
Hollow points stack the deck more slightly in your fave whether they expand or not.

The largest, most important reason to use hollow points is for the consistency and QC you get by buying a premium round so your already anemic pistol doesn't shit the bed when you need it the most.

>>31594082
>most hits are keyhole
>no insulation

My question still stands.

>>31594172
watch 'till the mp5 faggot

>>31593274
this thread got started by asking why use hollow points, and you continue to dismiss the research-based evidence that supports use of hollow point ammo (which you dismiss as an appeal to authority) you insist on fmj/ball ammo being better. at the end of the day, no one gives a tin shit what you carry. if you truly feel that fmj is meeting your defensive needs, great, but why shit up the board with a falsely labeled thread?

>>31594196
>same drywall
>no insulation.

And?

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why not compromise and get a "meme pistol" with big dick caliber

/thread

>>31594015
>the random chaos that is a bullet hitting a body.
Just because you can't aim didn't mean the rest of us are that bad

>>31594289
If you think a 9 or 45 was loud eithout ear plugs in a HD situation hoooly shit will you be deaf

>>31593051
Your a little late for fathers day anon.
Next year though for sure.

>>31594248
Listen closely at 5:03 and try to understand the words that come out of his mouth.

>>31593940
>they can dump the entire amount of energy into the target
Where does the energy required to deform them come from then?

>>31592620
It's all about the rate at which the bullet stops. Think about it like this, if you're going 70 mph and you come to a slow easing stop, you don't really feel anything. If you slam on the brakes and stop in 10 feet, you'll get slammed forward in your seat. A bullet works the same way.

Even though the same amount of force is being used and distributed throughout your stop, but stopping suddenly deposits it all at once. An FMJ is like the easing stop.

Ideally, you want to deposit as much energy as quickly as possible. An HP deposits energy much faster than an FMJ. Over penetration is bad because it is energy left on the table. You don't want to penetrate because you want all that energy to be left in the Dindu you just shot instead of some extra left in the wall behind.

>>31593574
you're not your you inbred hick

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>>31593241
I got it.

>>31594202
>research-based evidence
The FBI standards? Are familiar with how they were developed or are you just assuming that a plethora or data was used to determine that ballistic gelatin is the best medium, 12 of penetration has real world basis, and none of this is just based on "well it seems to work ok".

>>31594327
do you even know how hollow points work?

>>31593610
What did he mean by this?
t. northerner

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>>31592674
Because reduced risk of bystanders being hit by bullet penetrating your target or other structures.

>>31594376
Energy consumed in deformation of the bullet is not transfered to the target.

>>31594414
the bullet deforms because it's transferring energy to the target and getting stopped

>>31594400
Are you challenging the fact that most defensive shootings have low hit rates? If not, why is an overpenetrated bullet more dangerous the than ones you missed with?

Here is one source to back up my claim. there are others.
http://nation.time.com/2013/09/16/ready-fire-aim-the-science-behind-police-shooting-bystanders/

>>31592620
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8hbkXPdlks

Now go sign up for a post birth abortion you oxygen thief

>>31594449
Top kek. Take a physics class. Not all energy from the bullet can be transferred to the target. It takes energy to deform material and the only energy available that of the bullet. Some is transferred to the target causes tissue damage and some is chewed up on deformation of the bullet.

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>>31594459

here's the actual science if anyone is interested
>NYPD is basically allowed to cheat on qualifiers
>they barely touch their guns
>their guns are modified to have ~8lb trigger pulls
>it's basically expected of the NYPD to be seriously corrupt and inept

t. new yorker

>>31594478
>gelatin

This a model of very limited predictive value. It is relatively easy makes for easy qualitative comparisons, but it's extension to terminal performance on humans is limited.

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>>31592732
>implying opulent organ can be penetrated by anything less than 20mm anyway

>>31594506
Wouldn't surprise me. You will still find low hit rates in general. Moving targets, low light, adrenaline, etc. all negatively impact your ability to connect.

The average gun owner isn't very dedicated to training.

>>31594479
there is still A LOT more energy transferred to the target than by just punching trough. and that the point of hollow points.

>>31592674
You don't need all that penetration when it only has to go through the guys chest. If the bullet completely lodged in the guy, nearly 100% of the bullet's energy would be transferred to him, if it completely went through with hardly slowing down it would have transferred nearly 0% of the energy to him. This is some straight physics shit KE = 1/2*m*v^2

>>31593940
You don't understand physics. Dumping energy and results.
Now that I know some of the basic mechanics of what causes the difference in some that sort of thing behind what I think people call hydrostatic shock and fuddlore I don't think I should say. I think it's a very obvious answer if you know what's happening on a scientific level.

>>31594479
>take a physics class
> makes a basic physics error
None of the energy is "used" to deform the bullet. The deformation is the result of the force being expended.

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>>31594521
>The medium that's been used for basically every major ballistics test for decades isn't valid

>>31594521
You don't accept any model. So look the real world evidence of shootings up yourself you little cunt.

>>31594567
>nearly 100%
Prove it.

>>31594588
You aren't involved in science of engineering are you?

Testing of this nature is all flawed. Doesn't make it invalid, it is just makes it imperfect. Some tests are used despite being quite flawed because they are simple, low cost, easier to control, etc.

Understanding the limitations of a test method is vertical to properly applying the results.

>>31594591
I am not rejecting gelatin. I am saying that it doesn't account for the variables that make all the difference. Bone, tissue elasticity and density variations, etc. It is a useful model, but it is not the same thing as a real human torso.

Part of the reason gelatin is used is opposition to the use of cavaders. There are flaws there too, but at lest you would get something closer to reality.

Gelatin is a shitty compromise because the alternatives are more expensive or unavailable due to political correctness.

>>31594584
>force being expended
Critiques me and thinks a force can be extended.

Kinetic energy of the bullet is converted into strain energy during deformation. The word used doesn't appear in that post.

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>>31594639
>>31594678
Alright then, why don't we shoot you in the chest with one hollow point and one fmj and then you can tell us which one hurts more, that would be a valid testing method.

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>>31594369
>tfw no helen girlfriend

>>31592620

I can see the benefit of a larger wound channel that hollow points provide, but I prefer the penetration of the FMJ. Some hollow points I've seen only get 11-14 inches into plain gel and that's not good enough for me.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/09/foghorn/a-doctors-and-emts-perspective-on-firearm-wounds/

At around 17:00, x-ray images are shown where the sternum basically stopped a hollowpoint bullet. Is this a fluke? Possibly. But to be on the safe side I'll use FMJs which will penetrate to hit the vitals that I am aiming for.

>>31594678
what the fuck do you mean?
do you want to shoot cadavers? that's been done before/// man... fucking..... what the fuck seriously how would you even measure that?

>>31594678
Still you can't point out which evidence would be acceptable to you. Even if a shot a guy right now you'd stil whine that that's a one-point statistic without statistical significance.

>ITT
>energy dump
>kinetic energy being directly relevant at all
>overpenetration memes
>legal misinformation (muh bystanders)
>complete misinterpretations of the FBI tests

This is why you should never bother talking to /k/ about ballistics
Let them argue over other things they pretend to understand.

>>31594379
It means i dont want bullets i put into my attacker going through him or the walls or furniture of my house. In addition i don't see maximum penetration as a high priority because i do not reside in an area of high obesity rate

>>31594372
did you bother to actually look at their shit or are you actually retarded?

>>31594597
>prove it
well, it doesnt leaves the target again with its kinetic energy left you genius?

>>31594827
OP is an utterly retarded wannabe scientist and this is troll thread. I am out.

>>31594816
>penetrate the vitals I am aiming for
the vitals of your invader, the wall, little timmy next door, and a stray cat in their alley

>>31594843
what the fuck i deleted my rare pepe collection but i need one for sheer rage since you didn't explain the incident i was clearly asking about a /jpg wont even work it has to be gif form now

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how did you make a thread worse than /arg/

Here's a big shoutout to OP for making this stupid thread and bringing all the retards out from under their rocks.

>>31594053

Are you serious? You're kidding? Right?

No, I get the feeling you think that walls stop bullets, or slow them down so much they can not hurt anyone.

You think that the entire basis of preventing over-penetration is some sort of colossal hoax.

You think that overpenetration does not happen to any degree that it would be dangerous for neighbors or people in other rooms of the house.

So in short, you do not know how bullets work and you want to argue about it here on this board, in the stupidest time water of a thread that /k/ has to offer today.

Tell you what genius: You stand inside am house with normal wood/siding, and as a test, you have your BFF shoot at the wall on the outside of the house with various calibers.

If you do not die, come back and tell us about it.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-1-the-original-box-o-truth/

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I post this in every ballistics/stopping power/wound channel meme thread.

I hunt deer with a handgun because the season is longer and it's more fun than putting a round into a deer across the corn field and less of a hassle than bow or muzzle loading, but still provides the challenge I'm looking for.

One single time when I was just getting into pistol hunting I accidentally loading in FMJs into the magazine I use for hunting on my 1911. I put a round right behind the shoulder of a big doe. Saw the dirt shoot up behind her. Saw her buck her back legs out and take off. I saw the deer trail she took off down. I saw her white tail flicker in the tree line. I went down to where I shot her and saw the bubbles in the blood indicating a good solid lung shot.

I followed her trail for 3 hours until it got too dark. My brothers and I went out the next morning to find her and she was nowhere to be found. I was too embarrassed to tell them I shot her with an FMJ.

All memes aside that was enough proof for me that JHPs are the only way to go.

The only reason I would use FMJ in a self defense situation is if I was using a .22LR or a .38 where the mushroom simply doesn't bloom.

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>>31594976
even a .32 goes through a standard metal house door and through a wall and beyond

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-17-i-hear-you-knocking-metal-doors/

I see and understand a few things on your points however it raises a few questions
>Why NOT take that extra bit of expansion
>Buy quality HPs and it maybe negligible as to them expanding or not.
Your thoughts of a 6'10" bearman after you and HPs stopping in his dense dense body are warranted as when you want something to work it will fail and when you want a skinny to come after you he will, Murphy law.
However we know who a typical armed robber is be and look like.
And I don't agree with you 100% on feeding issues. Find the rounds that work, you must know this I'm sure. Don't buy blazer for all your practice and then buy a 25.00 box and just hope they work. Ultimately HPs give you an edge create a more damaging wound cavitiy and lead to more internal bleeding. As opposed to a icepick channel that hopefully hits something

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>>31594981
This is no shit. FMJ will slide right through a body in many instances and keep on going. If I had to choose what kind of bullet to get shot with, I would take 2 FMJ's over 1 hollow point. So would any sane doctor.

HP's tear the shit out of tissue; FMJ's are smooth, slippery little guys. You can shoot a squash or watermelon with a 308 and it will have only a little hole in the front and a slightly larger one in the back and the target will be fine. and of course off it goes, losing almost zero energy.

Or you can take a hollow point .223 and shoot at two watermelons lined up one in front of the other. The first watermelon is obliterated into mist and tiny pieces, and the second melon is untouched.

>>31592792
OP heres my take on it.

Modern 9mms penetrate deeply enough even as hollowpoints. Sure there are cases where they fail, but there's even more where they produce the intended adequate result.

That being said, in summer I pocket carry to conceal better, and I pocket carry a 380 or even a 32. When carrying those already anemic rounds, I would never buy or carry the hollowpoint counter parts.

Seeing a how they will not expand at their low velocities and if they do, they will under-penetrate by a lot. So, I do carry FMJ in my 380, and, personally, in a "shtf" scenario, I'm switching all my hollows to FMJ for the reasons you stated.

Only reason I carry the hollows in my glock is for preventing as much over penetration as possible.

But other than that you're correct OP, when it comes to damage, I myself think the added expansion is pretty negligible.

You will get shit on by other people here who don't understand physics though. They just go with the crowd, and to the retards talking about dumping the energy on the target, that energy is negligible as well. Since handgun rounds only kill through the direct and primary hole they punch through.

use these instead
https://youtu.be/POi35ozcgZs

>>31594952
All the post in the series are very clear. Go back to elementary school and get some reading comprehension.

I cant see how you're still debating real world vs gelatin and whatever.

look to fucking hunting you mallninjas. expanding ammunition is much more effective. even with low velocity pistol calibers

>>31592928
Wasn't that nigger Mike Brown shot with a .40 or 9mm multiple times and some bullets got lodged in his arm?

You know... FBI standard bullets.

Tbh I dont think a debate should be between HP vs FMJ, but one between HP vs SP. Most game shots I've taken with soft points are incredibly nasty.

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>>31594327
im sinking too deep into this

lets say you have a 147grain hollow point and a 147 grain FMJ. you shoot at a big black target of gel ( not a person wink wink) both bullets have the same amount of energy.

the hollow point hits the target, deforms* (spreads open) and stops inside the target. meaning all the energy that bullet had has been taken in by the target.

the FMJ hits the target, dosent really deform* and exits the target on the other side. since its still moving it has energy (kenetic energy in this case) that means it left the target with energy it could have dumped into the target if it had stayed there.

next time your at a pool do a belly flop and do a dive. you weigh the same but when you do a belly flop it hurts more and your stop with in a foot. if you to a dive it hurts less but you go like six feet. thats energy getting dumped into the water. you have the same amount of energy but if that water stopped after two feet. you would keep going because you have all this energy that wasent taken up by the water.

if you still dont get it your either lying or just dumb, you shouldnt have a gun in either case but remember. bill nye and magic scool buss is on netfilx, and the episode where they go through the single cylinder corroborated school bus is pretty fun.

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>>31595564
>be 6ft tall
>dive into a pool
>only penetrate surface of water 6ft deep

>>31592620
I prefer FMJ for tge overpwnetration, fuck my target and his soul.

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>>31592620
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esWHQEPvSMA

Yankee Marshal did a video explaining his take on hard cast bullets. I personally believe over-penetration is a non-issue, as simply missing your intended target will over overshadow that risk. However. the question of which type of projectile is more effective I am undecided about still. I would not carry FMJ for reliability reasons, but machined hard cast defensive ammo is something to consider like Underwood's offering.

I will probably stick with hollow points considering I carry .357 sig rounds that move at over 1500fps anyway.

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>>31592620
Don't even bother trying to discuss wound ballistics with people here OP. There are to many fucking retards who will drown out any actual discussion with their ridiculous views about what makes ammunition effective (transmitting energy kills people, destroying more tissue that isn't nerve tissue regardless of where it's located makes ammunition more effective) and in all of their ridiculous views absolutely fucking no one actually takes the time to research how long it will take for whatever damage they do to have an effect and everyone just assumes everything will take place almost instantly like a fucking video game or movie where they're the hero. No one seems to realize that lungs take time to collapse or that blood takes time to leak out during which time your attacker won't see much of a decrease in effectiveness, or that damage to anything that isn't the heart or a couple major arteries WILL NOT FUCKING CAUSE PEOPLE TO BLEED OUT QUICKLY (see "The Physiological Effects of Handgun Bullets" by Ken Newgard, if you completely sever the aortic arch where the blood leaves the heart it will still take 4.6 seconds for the heart to pump out 20% of your blood which happens to be the point where your body can no longer compensate for blood loss any you start actually feeling the effects, expecting someone to bleed out quickly from shooting them several times elsewhere is ridiculous).

>>31592867
It will expand more that a FMJ.

>>31592947
So say that it might have fees issues if you carry different bullets. But I'm not an expert. Just tested it out at the range before you carry some cocktail of bullets.

>>31593051
How many liberal tears doe's it need to be fully watered?

>>31598033
>fuck my furniture, and my drywall.

>>31597996
>This. Too much this.

....someone was too busy staring at other dudes asses during basic physics class apparently.

>>31592620
HP's are meme and will always be a meme.

There is zero difference in handgun caliber lethality and .22 is at the top of the list in single shot kills.

They are modern day fudd bullshit.

Honestly the perfect gun would be a medium sized 25acp shooting ball ammo. You could fit 30 god damn rounds in the thing.

>>31593743
>sample size: 1 bullet

MEANWHILE

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf
>sample size: 28 bullets

>>31593149
I mean we kind of have a little bit....

>average height has increased like 4 fucking inches.

>>31594521
>its extension to terminal performance on humans is limited.
>>31594639

Do I have to post this again?

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf

Gelatin was designed to be the best consistent simulant of live pig tissue that didn't have the ethical and anesthetical concerns that live animal testing of weapons possess.

>>31594678
Dead pig tissue and cadavers suck even more in comparison, and you can't scientifically shoot living people in most countries. It's not a shitty compromise, it's the best available option that's been verified when comparing results to live shootings.

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>>31598199
this is the most relevant post I've found after skimming this thread.

In reality the most important thing I would take away from the FBI's information is that whatever round you're most accurate with is the deadliest.

Being that a 22 can accurately and easily land several shots in a killzone makes it a very serious contender with potentially more lethal rounds which could cause misses and non critical hits.

>How accurate are you when you're mag dumping a 45 compared to 22?

Honestly I think accuracy tests should only be relevant if done in full on mag dumps.

Someone posted either a picture or a link talking about how penetration is the best factor in gun fights.

Anyone have that? Completely forgot what/where it was

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Hiroki is considering deleting boards and this is the shit that's coming out.

Kill yourselves.

>>31600760
nutrition, not evolution

>>31592620
Hopefully this adds to the conversation
https://youtu.be/tku8YI68-JA

>>31595014
.50 bmg can only penetrate 3 xboxes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_t2cYuWwEJ4

>>31595564
>>31595064
>>31594567
Got to laugh at people that are all knowledge but no wisdom. Its so easy to screw with the numbers in all these silly calculations and references you guys bring up.

Taking a bump at 1 mile per hour from a 5000# truck is 167 foot pounds of energy. I would rather get hit with the truck than a .22lr with all thing being equal.

Taking a bump at 1 mile per hour from a fully loaded semi truck at 80000# is 2674 foot pounds of energy. I would rather get hit with the semi truck than a high power rifle with all thing being equal.

Taking a bump at 1 mile per hour from the 6 million # space shuttle crawler is 200575 foot pounds of energy. Question of the day, would my shin look any different from the bump with the pickup truck?

There is no such thing as energy dump with handguns. Bullets that stay in a body do not release more energy than a pass through.

Bullets that fall short are bullets that fall short, nothing more, nothing less.

In the competitive world of ammunition manufacturing a vendor will not give a hollow point a higher foot pound rating than a solid.