Mk71 8 inch naval gun

>>31365629
>Railguns don't exist

I know what you meant, but the way you phrased this sounds retarded.

>>31365629
>they are still unsurpassed for blowing the hell out of a beach.

In what universe is this a necessary capability?

We have smart bombs now. We can just drop bombs on the enemy, rather than shooting lots of shells at where we think he might be.

In the past, naval gunfire was the only way of delivering munitions from sea to land. There have been some improvements since then.

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>>31365629

>>31365681
It's hard to believe that PGMs will work at all against a sophisticated peer opponent. Which is the only scenario in which we would have to make a contested beach landing. Our intelligence is not omniscient. Sometimes you just gotta blow the hell out of the entire area, shoot where you think they might be. In WW2 we would bombard an area for days before we went in. Camo, concealment, and fortifications are a thing. There's no replacement for big ass guns and deep magazines.

>>31365793
>It's hard to believe that PGMs will work at all against a sophisticated peer opponent.

So in your world guided missiles are useless yet somehow ships can still survive to within sight of an enemy coastline.

>>31365793
>It's hard to believe that PGMs will work at all against a sophisticated peer opponent.

And you think that naval gunfire will?

You have to get really, really close to shoot at the shore with a ship. Much closer than the range of even the most primitive anti-ship missiles.

>>31365793
You don't make contested beach landings, you ether destroy defenses at a distance or land elsewhere.

>>31365793
>Sometimes you just gotta blow the hell out of the entire area, shoot where you think they might be.

You have absolutely no clue whatsoever how combat has worked for decades.

Test

>this is not a BB thread
>regurgitate arguments used to try and justify BB's

>>31365931
We haven't had a real war between peers for decades. Our fancy electronics and complex kill chain Powerpoints will fail, and we will be back to having to take risks and loses again.

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>>31365629
fuck you

>>31366019
>Our fancy electronics and complex kill chain Powerpoints will fail
t. Lind

>>31366019
>I reject your reality and substitute my own

>>31366031
>Tfw no USS Trump

>>31366072
t. Adam Savage

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>>31365793
So an enemy that is somehow so advanced they have perfect camouflage and the ability to negate guided weapons, but somehow are completely helpless about a ship ten miles away firing wildly.

>>31366060
t. Five-Side Asylum

File: US_Navy_030809-N-4304S-007_The_guided_missile_destroyer_USS_John_Paul_Jones_(DDG_53)_fires_a_five-inch_round_from_a_Mk-45_5-inch[1].jpg (2MB, 2256x1500px) Image search: [Google]

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>>31365629

>Big guns may or may not be obsolete for naval surface warfare, but they are still unsurpassed for blowing the hell out of a beach. How can we regain this capability?

Big guns are definitely not obsolete and they probably never will be. However, nobody has shown that there is any real need for naval artillery beyond 127mm.

>but they are still unsurpassed for blowing the hell out of a beach.

Aircraft do that pretty well, but okay.

>How can we regain this capability?

The Zumwalt was designed with 155mm guns specifically to address this, however Congress isn't willing to fund any more Zumwalts, so they must think it isn't that important. And honestly, they're probably right.

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>>31366080
Soon.

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>>31365793

>It's hard to believe that PGMs will work at all against a sophisticated peer opponent.

It's hard to believe that Mozart is still alive, but it is true.

>>31365793

Yeah, fixed fortifications on beaches really are such a massive trend.
In nineteen fucking forty four.

>>31366131
Now I want a Trump-class battleship.

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>>31366163

>tfw born too late to join the Coastal Artillery branch.

>>31366175
Sweden had them untill 2000. Finland still has them I think.

While not really that usuefull, any enemy that wants to make a beach assault would need to waste a lot of PGMs on taking them out as they cant be sure they are not manned.

Building new ones would however be retarded

>>31365681
Almost all the smart bombs are GPS guided which can be jammed, and in any peer vs peer conflict, the GPS satellites will be destroyed.

Non-GPS guidance is much less accurate, and those munitions are much more expensive.

>>31366175
>>31366207
Also coastal anti-ship missiles are still a thing. Japan has a shitload of them mounted on trucks to take out Chinese landing ships.

>>31366223
Laser guided munitions is also useless in bad weather like fog

>>31366237
So does Poland. Sweden developed and built a new system in 1995 called the RBS15KA. Only to scrap it five years later.

>>31366249
Laser guided weapons are shit because you have to sit there and guide it in, something thats suicide against a peer.

>>31366207

Wait, did Sweden got rid of it completely (including mobile anti-ship missiles/ Karin gun batteries and coastal jaegers) ?

I remember reading an article about that branch in an old french magazine (Raids, must have been an '98 or '99 issue) and it seemed to have been pretty fancy as far as coastal defence goes.

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>>31366019

War between Peers will bring out all of the nasty stuff they've been working on at Darpa, Sandia, and the off-the-books research facilities.

E-L-F frequencies bounced off of the ionosphere to cause some kind of nastiness on the other side of the planet - in a Large Area

Shit we have not heard of because it is classified Need To Know, you dont even get briefed until there's a good reason to no matter how high your security clearance is.

The reason we don't see it used or presented mainstream is because the MIC is good friends with the Oil Companies.

Doesn't matter if the tech came from aliens. The shit we're familiar with as spectacular was made in the fucking 80s.

They dont just "stop" because they invented the B2 and can call it a day now.

And we've gotten better computers since then so the (Black Technology) has accelerated to an even higher rate than before.

For these reasons alone "Peers" is highly misleading.

Do we count only techs and infrastructure that we have palms up, or ALL of the techs that each side has to offer?


(CIP - Whoever the fuck said Active Denial microwave systems had to be Non Lethal? change the frequency enough and its cooking you inside)

>>31365629
Mk71 was a precursor to AGS. That's the best you'll get for shore bombardment until railguns since conventional guns are simply too inaccurate to be used at a safe distance.

>>31366304
you are a conspiracy theorist
and delusional

>>31366277
Costal Jägers stilm exist but we only have one ambhibious battalion and their heaviest weapons is Hellfire missiles.

Karin is gone, Rbs 15 is gone, ERSTA is gone and 7,5cm m/57 is gone. And on top of that most (if not all) remotely activated mines are removed to.

>>31366315

t. leaks over the years

> and they can cover up those leaks, so only the people who caught it at the outset understood the implications, the proof disappears.

>mfw any energy patent with 70% efficiency or higher is immediately rendered classified.


Read the writing on the fucking wall dude, its not even theory and it never has been simply a theory.

Grow some real intelligence rather than parrotting what the schools taught you.

>>31366223
A JDAM kit costs around $25,000, a basic laser guidance kit costs half that. A GBU-16 Paveway II has a CEP 1/100th of an unguided Mk. 83 bomb.

>>31365629
So do planes not exist in your head or something?

>>31366357
show us some of these leaks then

>>31366357
The government is way too incompetent to truly carry out any of the conspiracies you are parroting. Any program that disappears isn't becoming classified; it's likely proven ineffective and quietly discontinued.

>>31366400
don't, holly shit

now you have moral obligation to read garbage he digs out just for you

>>31366357
the government doesn't have any magic tech that the private sector lacks

The only thing the government does is spend money developing unproductive & uneconomic things.
Such as radar absorbing materials or rail guns or large mobile lasers.

>>31366223
>what is INS

>>31366489
>The only thing the government does is spend money developing unproductive & uneconomic things

Largely with cots items that contractors tape together and sell as a product.

>>31366435

By government are you talking about Congress and the Pentagon?

Or are you speaking of Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency?

Because they're not incompetent at all, they are seethingly effective and precise.

But they're part of the government... I suppose... even though they just kinda do their own thing as administration after administration comes and goes.

> I wonder why we needed homeland security when we already had a homeland security called the NSA, established before world war 2 in fact.


>>31366489
And how would you know?

Unproductive and Uneconomic things are just the payoffs to the defense contractors, a good way to stick money in their pocket because they're good old boys.

Thats like "nope nothing to see here, we're just funneling 5 billion to these guys". Gives them a reason to hand the money over without it looking suspicious. Stuff that comes out the other side is crap that gets discontinued since it wasn't meant to go anywhere.

The real shit you don't hear about, and it has teeth. Gets developed by different defense contractors so the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing - they don't know what they're actually building.

Any veteran of this hidden world will be able to confirm this.

>>31365629
As a rule, general bombardment is considered obsolete. Most military thinking says that anything that you can do with a general bombardment you can do faster and cheaper with a precision attack.

I doubt this is always true but it's held up fairly well under most circumstances.

The railgun it'self is actually angling for a kind of long range defensive armament kind of like a 6 inch gun but with much longer range.

Anyhow, the Cruise missile has the long range fire power aspect handled. So far, endurance issues with VLS reloading hasn't been a factor yet. For those of you that don't know, a VLS battery needs shipyard facilities to reload. Nobody has figured out a good way of reloading them at sea yet.

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>>31366572

This is a fuckton more effective than shelling a coast with 8 inch guns. A typical full barrage destroys *everything* in a 200x800 meter rectangle.

Only thing it wont destroy is a hardened bunker, but a bunker isnt going anywhere so you've got plenty of time to Bunker-Buster it.

>>31365629

Shore bombardment itself was only relevant when the ships that must not be named were. If you want that back, you're going to need situations where the you know whats become feasible to use over destroyers.

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>>31366237
Which is the modern day equivalent of coastal artillery. Land based missiles are mobile and will hide as much as they can until they have a shot, which means we have to bombard large areas where we think they might be. Most of those bombs will not hit anything, but that's the way war works.

/K/ loves PGMs because they are the ultimate autistic weapon. Precisely what you need, exactly where you need it. But in the real world our knowledge is not perfect, and complex systems are subject to failure and jamming.

Sometimes quantity has a quality all of its own. And by quantity I mean huge amounts of cheap high explosives and deep magazines.

>>31366568
>Any veteran of this hidden world will be able to confirm this.

No, no they wouldn't. It either doesn't exist or is so classified that a "hidden world" veteran would be required by law to deny he knew anything about it.

Considering the clearances needed to know these things, not knowing and denying knowledge would produce identical responses.

>>31366568
keep up with your medication, you're slipping.

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>>31366304
>t. Abovetopsecret.com

>>31365793
>peer apponent can't stop your ships to sit at 20 nm from shore for hours but will stop aviation

>>31366610
>And by quantity I mean huge amounts of cheap high explosives and deep magazines.

You're still better off with cluster bombs dropped from airplanes than having a large bunch of ships bombarding a shore from a practically static position well within range of enemy fire.

>>31366207

I don't know, stuffing a bunch of obsolete howitzers onto a beach to force an invading force to waste missiles that are many times more expensive to knock them out sounds like a plan.

>>31366661
I guess it is but you need a quite different targeting system to actually hit a naval force with howitzers and your enemy might understand this. The howitsers would probably be more usefull further inland to rain bad news on wherever your enemy gets a beachhead. Obsolete tanks was used by nations as a direct shore defence so that might be a plan if you have old slav tanks laying around for example

>>31366661

Soldiers tend to strongly object to being made into living targets.

>>31366602
THIS.

The technology of thermobaric warheads is well-understood. It shouldn't be too difficult to produce warheads for Harpoons, cruise missiles, Mavericks, guns, or any sort of ordnance in the inventory. They have plenty of bang for the buck.

>>31366768
>Implying these nations would care. Just feed them enough nationalistic propaganda.

Banzai you know.

>>31366602
>>31366788
Have something with a little more range.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5h7BkCj5rI

>>31366031
Former Defense Secretary Robert Gates (CIA director under H. W. Bush, Defense Secretary under W. Bush and Obama), along with a huge majority of former Generals, CIA directors, Defense Secretaries, etc. think Trump would be fucking disastrous for national security. This meme needs to die.

>At least on national security, I believe Mr. Trump is beyond repair. He is stubbornly uninformed about the world and how to lead our country and government, and temperamentally unsuited to lead our men and women in uniform. He is unqualified and unfit to be commander-in-chief.

>Mr. Trump is also willfully ignorant about the rest of the world, about our military and its capabilities, and about government itself. He disdains expertise and experience while touting his own—such as his claim that he knows more about ISIS than America’s generals. He has no clue about the difference between negotiating a business deal and negotiating with sovereign nations.

>The world we confront is too perilous and too complex to have as president a man who believes he, and he alone, has all the answers and has no need to listen to anyone. In domestic affairs, there are many checks on what a president can do; in national security there are few constraints. A thin-skinned, temperamental, shoot-from-the-hip and lip, uninformed commander-in-chief is too great a risk for America.

CONT

>>31366031
>>31366947
Other former Republican DoD/DS/Intel/NS/etc. chiefs who have said Trump is unfit (people here serving in every administration going all the way back to Nixon):
Donald B. Ayer, Deputy Attorney General
John B. Bellinger III, Legal Adviser to the Department of State; Legal Adviser to the National Security Council, The White House
Robert Blackwill, Deputy National Security Advisor for Strategic Planning, The White House
Michael Chertoff, Secretary of Homeland Security; Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division, Department of Justice
Eliot A. Cohen, Counselor of the Department of State
Eric Edelman, Under Secretary of Defense for Policy; National Security Advisor to the Vice President, The White House
Gary Edson, Deputy National Security Advisor, The White House
Richard Falkenrath, Deputy Homeland Security Advisor, The White House
Peter Feaver, Senior Director for Strategic Planning, National Security Council, The White House
Richard Fontaine, Associate Director for Near East Affairs, National Security Council, The White House
Jendayi Frazer, Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for African Affairs; Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs
Aaron Friedberg, Deputy National Security Advisor to the Vice President, The White House
David Gordon, Director of Policy Planning, Department of State
Michael Green, Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Asia, National Security Council, The White House
Brian Gunderson, Chief of Staff, Department of State
Paul Haenle, Director for China and Taiwan, National Security Council, The White House
Michael Hayden, Director, Central Intelligence Agency; Director, National Security Agency
Carla A. Hills, U.S. Trade Representative
John Hillen, Assistant Secretary of State for Political-Military Affairs
William Inboden, Senior Director for Strategic Planning, National Security Council, The White House

CONT

>>31366602
Has anyone attached one to a warship yet?

>>31366031
>>31366947
>>31366960
Reuben Jeffery III, Under Secretary of State for Economic Energy and Agricultural Affairs; Special Assistant to the President for International Economic Affairs, National Security Council, The White House
James Jeffrey, Deputy National Security Advisor, The White House
Ted Kassinger, Deputy Secretary of Commerce
David Kramer, Assistant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
James Langdon, Chairman, President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, The White House
Peter Lichtenbaum, Assistant Secretary of Commerce for Export Administration
Mary Beth Long, Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs
Clay Lowery, Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for International Affairs; Director for International Finance, National Security Council, The White House
Robert McCallum, Associate Attorney General; Ambassador to Australia
Richard Miles, Director for North America, National Security Council, The White House
Andrew Natsios, Administrator, U.S. Agency for International Development
John Negroponte, Director of National Intelligence; Deputy Secretary of State; Deputy National Security Advisor
Meghan O’Sullivan, Deputy National Security Advisor for Iraq and Afghanistan
Dan Price, Deputy National Security Advisor
Tom Ridge, Secretary of Homeland Security; Assistant to the President for Homeland Security, The White House; Governor of Pennsylvania
Nicholas Rostow, Legal Adviser to the National Security Council, The White House
Kori Schake, Director for Defense Strategy, National Security Council, The White House
Kristen Silverberg, Assistant Secretary of State for International Organizations

CONT

>>31366031
>>31366947
>>31366960
>>31366979

Stephen Slick, Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Intelligence Programs, National Security Council, The White House
Shirin R. Tahir-Kheli, Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Democracy, Human Rights and International Operations, National Security Council, The White House; Ambassador and Senior Advisor for Women’s Empowerment, Department of State
William H. Taft IV, Deputy Secretary of Defense; Ambassador to NATO
Larry D. Thompson, Deputy Attorney General
William Tobey, Deputy Administrator, National Nuclear Security Administration, Department of Energy; Director for CounterProliferation Strategy, National Security Council, The White House
John Veroneau, Deputy U.S. Trade Representative
Kenneth Wainstein, Assistant to the President for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism, The White House; Assistant Attorney General for National Security, Department of Justice
Matthew Waxman, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense; Director for Contingency Planning and International Justice, National Security Council, The White House
Dov Zakheim, Under Secretary of Defense
Roger Zakheim, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense
Philip Zelikow, Counselor of the Department of State
Robert Zoellick, U.S. Trade Representative; Deputy Secretary of State

When all these REPUBLICAN, not even liberal, but republican DoD/National Defense leaders say he's a fucking dumpsterfire, well, that tells me everything I need to know about what he'll do for defense/national security/diplomacy.

>>31366947
>listing Bush era cronies who Trump calls out for getting us into the current mess we have in the sandbox

Meanwhile.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/07/us/politics/donald-trump-earns-backing-of-nearly-90-military-figures.html?_r=0

>>31367001
>>31366979
>>31366960
>>31366947
Thank you for correcting the record.

>>31367001
quite a few jews or shitskins there

>>31367001
>>31366979
>>31366960
>>31366947
And these clowns were so fucking good for national and global security weren't they.
I don't even support Trump but I'd do the opposite of everything these jackasses told me too.

>>31367022
>http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/07/us/politics/donald-trump-earns-backing-of-nearly-90-military-figures.html?_r=0
That's 88 of the more than 500 retired Generals and Admirals who supported Romney in 2012. Think about that for a moment.

>>31367022
I notice that every single signatory is retired.

>>31366947
>>31366960
>>31366979
>>31367001

>Neocons don't like Trump therefore you shouldn't like Trump either

This is the weakest argument you could have made. Republican voters picked Trump specifically because he isn't a neocon.

>>31367151
Active duty military is not supposed to publicly engage in political activity.

>>31367209
>>Neocons don't like Trump therefore you shouldn't like Trump either
Those are officials who served going all the way back to Nixon. In fact, most of them are most emphatically NOT neocons. In fact, more than 20 of them served Reagan.

>>31366080
Oh fug..

Do you guys think, if Trump becomes President, that any later President or Navy Board will let a carrier or something be named that.

> USS Drumpf

>>31365629
>How can we regain this capability?
Airstrikes from allied bases that are already well-stocked with aircraft.

>>31367221
Not supposed to is a light term. It's punishable by the UCMJ.

>>31367271
>Do you guys think, if Trump becomes President, that any later President or Navy Board will let a carrier or something be named that.
IIRC, they only name carriers after presidents who served in the military, preferably the USN, with the exceptions of Lincoln (only short Illinois militia service) and Roosevelt (though he was Assistant Secretary of the Navy early on) for obvious reasons.

Reagan, Truman and Teddy were all US Army.

Trump never served. I don't believe he'll ever get a ship.

The only other presidential naming convention exception is the USS Jimmy Carter, which is a Seawolf Class SP boat, and that's because he was a nuke qual'd bubblehead during his USN service.

>>31366975
I know some smaller Russian and Chinese ships have MLRS on their boats.. no idea what ordnance they carry though.

>>31367349
>>31367271
Shit, forgot about the Stennis. But I doubt Trump is going to be 1/10th as good for the Navy as Stennis was.

>>31366270

>peer PEER PEEEREEPEPPE÷EERRR

nigga we fighting an alien invasion or just another country? You're making this 'peer' into the most well armed strawman in history.

Under what circumstances is a hostile beach being contested? Are invading the PRC or taking Siberia? For what possible reason would this be a goal?

You have a naval artillery fetish. Fine. But stop creating fantasy scenarios to support it

>>31366947
>>31366960
>>31366979
>>31367001
>>31367126
>>31367240
Jesus Christ. I didn't know all that.

Kinda fucks with my assumptions a little.

>>31367349
Ahh I see, so then no boat names for him.

So that also means that no "USS Barack H. Obama" either then, right?


http://callofduty.wikia.com/wiki/USS_Barack_Obama

>>31367430
>So that also means that no "USS Barack H. Obama" either then, right?
I would be very, very surprised.

Maybe they'll name some LCS/FFGs after them or something later on. Who knows. I'd say a carrier would be a very small chance.

>>31367430
Probably not as he doesn't have any particular connection to the Navy. They might do it anyways to be PC though.

>>31367448
If they're going to name a warship after him at all, a President at the very least warrants a DDG or SSN. Hell Winston fucking Churchill has a Burke named after him.

>>31367450
They'll name a base or something after him.

>>31367240
Neo-conservatism helped fuel the rise of Nixon and was a mainstay of conservative thought during Reagan years.

>>31367126
How is Rmoney relevant except for an attempt to change the subject?

>>31367430
Presidents which would get carriers long before Trump or Obama:
>Adams (the first one)
>Jefferson
>Madison
>Monroe
>Jackson
>Grant
>Wilson
>FDR
No question, straight up, in chronological order.

>>31367240
Neocon's were a thing before Bush Jr. got elected.

>>31367492
>Neo-conservatism helped fuel the rise of Nixon and was a mainstay of conservative thought during Reagan years.
>Nixon
Not a fucking chance. At least read the wiki article, much less an actual poli-sci work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism
>The term "neoconservative" was popularized in the United States during 1973 by Socialist leader Michael Harrington, who used the term to define Daniel Bell, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, and Irving Kristol, whose ideologies differed from Harrington's.
>The "neoconservative" label was used by Irving Kristol in his 1979 article "Confessions of a True, Self-Confessed 'Neoconservative.'"[13] His ideas have been influential since the 1950s, when he co-founded and edited the magazine Encounter.[14] Another source was Norman Podhoretz, editor of the magazine Commentary from 1960 to 1995. By 1982 Podhoretz was terming himself a neoconservative, in a New York Times Magazine article titled "The Neoconservative Anguish over Reagan's Foreign Policy".[15][16] During the late 1970s and early 1980s, the neoconservatives considered that liberalism had failed and "no longer knew what it was talking about," according to E. J. Dionne.

It wasn't until well into Reagan's presidency that Neo-Conservatism had moved from influential political theory to powerful political movement.

>>31367518
>How is Rmoney relevant except for an attempt to change the subject?
It shows how much military support should be expected for even a mediocre Republican candidate. 88 total is pathetic in terms of past support for Republican candidates.

>>31367424
Why would you listen to any bullshit that starts with the clinton talking points of Trump having a bad temperament or thin skin.

These are the sort of scum who brought about the disaster of the Iraq and Afghanistan war
These are the people who want amnesty for illegals along with continued unrestricted mass immigration.

They are likely all corrupt as hell and would go to prison if honestly investigated.

>>31367581
Trump is not an establishment politician
Why would the establishment support him?

>>31367726
>Why would you listen to any bullshit that starts with the clinton talking points of Trump having a bad temperament or thin skin.
Because Robert Gates, Michael Hayden, and others who have said this have been traditionally supportive of Republican candidates and leery of Democratic presidents. They've also been in the game a long time, and are highly respected.

Against Trump's credentials, I have to go with them.

>These are the sort of scum who brought about the disaster of the Iraq and Afghanistan war
>These are the people who want amnesty for illegals along with continued unrestricted mass immigration.
>They are likely all corrupt as hell and would go to prison if honestly investigated.
Speaking of talking points...

>>31367786
Ron Paul got far more support from the military than Trump has. In fact, he actually beat Obama for donations from military servicemen in 2008. Is he establishment?

>>31367581

I'm not sure if you understand this or not, but you realize that Romney lost the election right? Otherwise he'd be president right now. And he's not. So he's not a model to follow.

>>31367803

Thanks for correcting the record.

>>31367788
yes, "libertarianism" is the kosher establishment opinion.
Trump however supports NATIONALISM, which is not kosher at all.

>>31367838
oops meant
>>31367803

Anyways, anyone who would trust anything a former director of the CIA says is an idiot. The fact they support Clinton over Trump says everything you need to know about these people.

>>31367809
>>31367829
>>31367838
>all this asshurt justification of the fact that the US military and former national security/defense officials fucking hate Trump
delicious

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>>31367875
>Anyways, anyone who would trust anything a former director of the CIA says is an idiot
Post YFW George H.W. Bush was Director of the CIA.

>>31366131
Everyone finds the Mexican hotter.

Find a better meme.

>>31367879
Trump is going to overturn decades of their disastrous policies
ofc they won't like him

Thats a good thing

>>31367908
The funniest part is that Trumpers are so dumb the artist needed to include the fucking flags in the top corners just to make sure his point got across.

>>31367926
Anyone who speaks in absolutes about 50 years of national security, defense and diplomatic policy needs to get fucked in an eye socket until they see the light.

>>31367935
And here's the new fag who can't even recognize fucking memes, calling people "trumpers"

>>31367116
>100s of military experts from both republican and democrat governments oppose Trump
>Guy on 4chan says none of them know anything about military stuff
ok

I hope you guys are happy with this not being a bbfag thread.

It turned into a /pol/-/x/ crossover shitfest.

>>31367946
>can't come up with an argument against his content
>better say he's crap at memeing
>DAMAGECONTROL.EXE

>>31367957
>the opinions of lifelong POG's matters

kk

>>31367959
>It turned into a /pol/-/x/ crossover shitfest.
there was a BB in the post that started this:
>>31366031
still the BB's fault

>>31367466
>we named a ship after a man who saved civilization.
gee big deal

>>31367966
These people are the scum who want to start another cold war, who start civil wars in Syria or Ukraine then blame russia for intervening to save lives.

They are not admirable, and their opinions are worth less than dirt.
Robert Gates specifically is just regurgigating Clinton talking points. He likely has illegal financial ties to the Clinton foundation.

>>31368035
>These people are the scum who want to start another cold war, who start civil wars in Syria or Ukraine then blame russia for intervening to save lives.
>They are not admirable, and their opinions are worth less than dirt.
>Robert Gates specifically is just regurgigating Clinton talking points. He likely has illegal financial ties to the Clinton foundation.
Oh, look. Another Vatnik showing support for Trump online. How surprising.

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>>31368035
>who start civil wars in Syria or Ukraine then blame russia for intervening to save lives.
Too far. Gave yourself away, Ivan.

>>31368055
Americans are dumb enough that they'll shill for a totalitarian state and then think they're fighting the power.

>>31368071
>>31368055
Consider the record Corrected
thanks

>>31368074
>doesn't even deny being Russian
>thinks Americans would respond well to Russian interference in US elections
>is this fucking stupid

I fucking hate Hillary, but after the shit you morons are pulling with Assange, I'd almost vote for her just to spite you assholes. Way to shoot yourselves in the foot. Like you do every goddamn time.

>>31365681
>the only way of delivering munitions from sea to land
Except for carrier aircraft

>>31368081
>Consider the record Corrected
>thanks
So you're ok with the Russian state interfering in US presidential elections? Awesome. Go fuck yourself.

I didn't even give a shit about this election before that happened. I thought it was the worst election in memory because both candidates absolutely suck. But Russia sticking their dick in is fucking rage fuel.

This will backfire on Putin, big time.

>>31368093
>thinks Americans would respond well to Russian interference in US elections
>phrases this as a hypothetical rather than a factual question

Brah, this isn't 1947. The average American, on either side of the aisle, is soft and stupid, with no moral values besides consumerism.

>>31368093
>DNC IT security is fucking terrible
>Blame russia on hacks instead of their own incompetence

>Assassinate people who leaked stuff to wikileaks
>Be upset when Assange now has a bone to pick with Hillary/Democrats

Thanks CTR

>>31368114
>>31368124
>>31368129

I want Clinton shills to leave.

>>31368114
Obama should fucking do something about this. I can't believe he is not raging at Putin right now.

>>31368124
>Brah, this isn't 1947. The average American, on either side of the aisle, is soft and stupid, with no moral values besides consumerism.
Tell me about how well the Russian people are doing these days. Sing me a song of slav superiority. I'll be making some popcorn.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

>>31368137
>I want Clinton shills to leave.
Because any US citizen pissed off at Putin interfering in a goddamn US presidential election has to be a Clinton shill, right? Right?

Go fuck yourself. That bitch is crazy. But at least she isn't bobbing on Putin's dick.

>>31367879
As opposed to their asshurt that Trump calls them out on the clusterfuck they created?

>>31368169
I'm American though.

No shit we're better than Russia, that's literally always been true.

We're worse than what we need to be to prevent things from going downhill.

If you don't believe me, then how the fuck are the nominees Clinton and Trump, and not something like Webb vs. Rubio. People actually went to primaries and voted for these dickheads.

>>31368169
>Because any US citizen pissed off at Putin interfering in a goddamn US presidential election has to be a Clinton shill, right?

Yes when you bring up and repeat a baseless fucking clinton talking point, then yes, you are a shill

Meanwhile the US forces just bombed Syrian forces in aid of jihadists, and I see this obongo administration official defending it, bringing up more anti-assad talking points.

The USA is the #1 bad guy in this world.

>>31368169
Putin hasn't interfered in the election.

What Russian hackers have done is remind you how absolutely corrupt Hillary Clinton is, and that Bill still dicks bimbos.

>>31368159
They're slowly ramping up domestic and international support for a bitchslap.

Problem is, Putin's opened the door on nationally-executed political cyber-ops now. I wonder how he'll enjoy some turnabout.

>>31368192
>I'm American though.
Yeah? That's cute. Tell you what, when you remember that America IS fucking great, rather than buying this bullshit about how America is somehow now total shit, then you can wave a flag.

>No shit we're better than Russia, that's literally always been true.
>We're worse than what we need to be to prevent things from going downhill.
>If you don't believe me, then how the fuck are the nominees Clinton and Trump, and not something like Webb vs. Rubio. People actually went to primaries and voted for these dickheads.
Then why the fuck are you memeing for Trump online? He's fucking shit. Hillary is fucking shit. Neither of them deserve a vote for the presidency. Stop helping Trump just because you think he's the lesser of two evils. Get off your ass and get involved.

>>31368201
>Yes when you bring up and repeat a baseless fucking clinton talking point, then yes, you are a shill
>Meanwhile the US forces just bombed Syrian forces in aid of jihadists, and I see this obongo administration official defending it, bringing up more anti-assad talking points.
>The USA is the #1 bad guy in this world.
Not even trying leave the door open for a "just pretending to be retarded" defense later.

>>31365629
"Therefore, typical military railgun designs aim for muzzle velocities in the range of 2000–3500 m/s with muzzle energies of 5–50 MJ. For comparison, 50MJ is equivalent to the kinetic energy of a school bus weighing 5 metric tons, travelling at 509 km/h (316 mph)."
-Wikipedia

Railguns will be fantastic for shore bombardment against hard targets even without explosive power. That much KE will annihilate any tank, structure, boat, and potentially even underground bunkers.
Soft targets can be taken out easily with modern conventional 155mm guns already on the Zumwalt.
Like everyone else has already said, anything that can be done with a big ass barrage done by 17" guns can be done better and cheaper with precision-guided munitions.

>>31368327
Name one reason why Trump is bad

>>31368327
>nationally-executed political cyber-ops

Or it could be that the DNC is full of inept retards who do shit like email new passwords when they know they have been compromised.

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>>31368279
>Putin hasn't interfered in the election.
>What Russian hackers have done is remind you how absolutely corrupt Hillary Clinton is, and that Bill still dicks bimbos.
Oh, look. More Vatnik delusion. How am I not surprised.

>>31368393
Airing dirty secrets is a good thing
And much of it has come from LEAKS, not hacking

>>31368376
Have you not been paying attention?
>>31366947
>>31366960
>>31366979
>>31367001
>>31367126
>>31367240
>>31367788
AND THE FACT THAT PUTIN IS ACTIVELY COMMITTING INTERNATIONAL CYBEROPS FOR TRUMP, AND TRUMP PUBLICLY SUCKS HIS FUCKING DICK.

Is that enough for you? Trump pisses and moans about America not being great anymore, but he's the greatest threat to our democratic core values since the Communist movements of the 20's and 30's.

>>31368407
>Airing dirty secrets is a good thing
>And much of it has come from LEAKS, not hacking
Then let's air all of Trump's laundry. Let's see how that goes.

>>31368393
>>31368381
Yes yes CTR, try and shift the subject from Hillary's corruption. Big scary Russia that Hillary sold uranium to.

>>31368426

>AND THE FACT THAT PUTIN IS ACTIVELY COMMITTING INTERNATIONAL CYBEROPS FOR TRUMP

Proof?

>>31368447
>can't argue the point
>call him CTR
>QUICK, YURI, OF DAMAGE CONTROL IMMEDIATE!

>>31368426
>AND THE FACT THAT PUTIN IS ACTIVELY COMMITTING INTERNATIONAL CYBEROPS FOR TRUMP

In the imaginary world of Hillary's campaign narrative, in a desperate ploy to change the subject from the leaked emails themselves.

>AND TRUMP PUBLICLY SUCKS HIS FUCKING DICK.

Trump saying Putin has done a better job leading his country than Obama has? Facts are facts and Obama has no respect on the world stage anymore.

>>31368327
I'm not memeing for Trump, dumbass.

You're part of the cancer. You take any input, and fit it into a binary us-vs-them narrative rather than applying any critical thinking.

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>>31368455
Hilarious. We already to this?

http://www.newsweek.com/ash-carter-russia-hacks-putin-elections-trump-clinton-warns-496459

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/15/politics/putin-trump-obama-clinton-russia/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/26/russia-meddling-us-election-dnc-email-leak

etc, etc.

>>31368426
Trump and Putin have no connection, you think the 2 exchanging complements means something?

>to our democratic core values
Are you a child?

Obama won 2 elections on the "hope and change" which never arrived.
Now REAL change is coming along, and no surprise the establishment is upset.

>>31368463
What point, that you are stuck in a world of delusion?

Are you going to start talking about evil nazi frogs?

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>mfw Yuri has to call in friends to help him prop up Trump ITT because he's getting fuckstomped

D E R A I L M E N T
E
R
A
I
L
M
E
N
T

>>31368497
Do you actually read your links, none support the idea that PUTIN IS ACTIVELY COMMITTING INTERNATIONAL CYBEROPS FOR TRUMP!!!!

>>31368478
>Trump saying Putin has done a better job leading his country than Obama has?

He wasn't even saying that at all, he was merely saying Putin is a better/stronger LEADER.
Which he obviously is.

>>31368497
>speculation by some globalist scumbag

>>31368516
>everyone pointing out I am a shill is an Ivan

>>31368526
Frankly this is a better topic than Listerine.

>>31366960
>>31366979
>>31367001

>Here is a wikipedia list I found of all the neocons who hate Trump. Notice how their foreign policy was a failure, though just a trashcan fire rather than a roaring landfill fire like the Obama administrations', and all though the list seems extensive, 79% of the words are just their titles, which can all be shortened to "Congressional cock sucker"

No one should be fucking surprised that the GOP establishment bodies don't support someone from outside the GOP establishment. I thought this was old news.

The only two Republican candidates who had a chance from the start were Rubio and Cruz, but Rubio was a robot who just repeatedly spit rehearsed phrases because he lacked a thought processor, and Cruz was the most creepy, uncharismatic guy on stage, after Jeb Bush, but where Bush was a joke, Cruz was a non-stop cringefest

>>31368557
>he was merely saying Putin is a better/stronger LEADER

What a pointless semantic distinction.

>Trump is a thin-skinned warmonger who will start WW3!
>How can you support Trump? He's a puppet of the Putin regime and will sell us out to the Russians!

The double-think never ceases to amaze me.

>>31368327
As an Ausfag living in the US I can never work out if the US are incredibly wily at slowly building up support for a bitchslap - or just wait until the last minute to show some balls.

Putin is KGB for fucksake. Slap him already are you scared about Libtards and the UN complaining? Or is it a wily trick towait for him to hack a few other nations before doing anything about it so that it's the USA saving the day?

I really never know with you people.

>>31365681
>In what universe is this a necessary capability?
Some of us really hate beaches.

>>31368830
>As an Ausfag living in the US I can never work out if the US are incredibly wily at slowly building up support for a bitchslap - or just wait until the last minute to show some balls.
>Putin is KGB for fucksake. Slap him already are you scared about Libtards and the UN complaining? Or is it a wily trick towait for him to hack a few other nations before doing anything about it so that it's the USA saving the day?
>I really never know with you people.
After Bush and the whole Iraq part Duex thing, we're a little more wary about pulling the trigger. Also, I think the NSA is just building a solid case (to counter the inevitable international handwringing) before releasing something truly medieval on Putin (which they could have already done and it's just not been detected yet; see: Stuxnet).

There's also the question of how much capability to let the world know you have. It might be better to sit on your capabilities until you really need them, unless this bullshit goes from nuisance to full blown attack.

Hard to say.

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>>31368942
>mfw Russia's entire aviation industry R&D data is leaked to the world next month

>>31366223
HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF A GYROSCOPE?!

THE GPS IS USED AS A FINAL CORRECTION FOR THE INS BEFORE REACHING JAMMING DISTANCE, AT WHICH POINT INS DRIFT IS NEGLEGABLE AND YOU ARE FUCKED

>>31368683
>Russia is the only country the US could go to war with to start WWIII

>>31369053
>Thinks China dislikes Trump

>>31369078
>China is the only country the US could go to war with to start WWIII

>>31369110
Rising European right wing groups all support Trump
India likes Trump

who do you believe Trump is capable of starting WW3 with?

>>31369136
Oh, lets see:
>Trump empowers an Indian smackdown against Pakistan, China gets involved, nukes happen, rest of the Muslim world gets involved, strike nearby US/Indian assets, etc.
>Putin, feeling like he's got the US on a leash, goes full GIB FORMER USSR STATES, kicks off next great European war. Hilarity and possibly nukes ensue.
>Trump manages to fuck up South and/or Central America enough to kick off a major expulsion of western business interests down there, China and Russia put an oar in and then everyone's got their dick in the grinder
>Chinese and US business interests and mismanagement ignite Muslim tensions in SE asia, leading to widespread conflict plus the India/Pakistan festivities, etc.
etc, etc, etc.

Any one of dozens of ways having a complete retard in charge of foreign policy for the most powerful country in the world could turn out disastrously. Looking at how often very intelligent and experienced people get it wrong, Trump's state department would be my personal nightmare.

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>>31367424

Yes, goyim. Doubt yourself. It's totally WASP White Men who run your country. You should blame them for everything.

>>31369217
Don't forget how fucked up it could get between China and Russia if they do the usually and fuck each other over, get pissy and start loading up the border with troops.

>>31369217
ah ok so a 150 IQ self-made billionaire is being referred to as a "complete retard"

And you are endorsing Hillary, a traitor who put her office & the country for sale, and has parkinsons.

Good stuff

>>31369292
>ah ok so a 150 IQ self-made billionaire
There isn't a single fact in this clause which is true. Not one. Well done.

>And you are endorsing Hillary, a traitor who put her office & the country for sale, and has parkinsons.
Nope. Again, not even fucking close.

Say it with me: THEY ARE BOTH SHIT.
Again: THEY BOTH FUCKING SUCK.
One more time: FUCK BOTH OF THEM WITH A PINEAPPLE.

>expect a thread on naval guns
>get a thread full of burgers arguing about politics

go back to /pol/

>>31369312
Your rhetoric about Trump has no basis in reality
People will see that when they hear him talk, so it'll all fucking backfire at the debates.

Do you grasp that?

>>31369498
>Your rhetoric about Trump has no basis in reality
>People will see that when they hear him talk, so it'll all fucking backfire at the debates.
>Do you grasp that?
Capped, saved and ready to ram up your ass after the debates.

>>31369312
>I am not supporting Hillary
>I am merely reguritating her talking points to attack Trump

>>31369648
>I have to think Hillary is awesome to know that Trump is a fucking disaster

Shit-tier straw man.

>>31368103

This is correct - however, until smart bombs were invented, the sort of accuracy you'd get out of munitions capable of being dropped by carrier aircraft was pretty dismal.

>>31369728
I played BF1942
Dumb bombs could have pinpoint accuracy.

>>31368567
>everyone who doesn't like Trump is CTR

>>31369775
idiot

>>31369728
DIVE BOMBERS BITCH!

>the precision munitions of the late 30's/40's were carried under Stukas and Curtiss SB2C Helldivers

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Germany is testing out 155mm naval guns, so there is a market for them. The next technological step in guns of that size is light-gas, which would work for a large enough ship.

>>31369692
How ironic that you are using a strawman.

>>31369941
There were actually guided missiles. Or if you're Japanese, human guided missiles/torpedoes.

>>31369941
There were radio controlled bombs in WW2. Ask the Germans.

>>31366264
Iran also heavily invested on domestic made Anti-Ship Missiles.

>>31368942

Yeah. I never got why some sort of 'middle party' didn't say to win afghanistan first, before going into Iraq.

But your lack of a real quality response makes me think that even you guys haven't worked out a doctrine for the new era.

There's a real need for people with both balls and brains here. Hope you guys work out a way to recruit.

>>31368955
You're losing the PR game in SE Asia.

Fix it you dumb cunts.

There really isn't a way to make it viable without greatly increasing its range some how. Naval artillery just doesn't have the range to be all that useful in a war that's anything but to 20~ miles within shore. And given the global spectrum.of operations it's much better to just load up on missiles because guns are also ineffective for ship to ship combat (again due to range).

>>31372320
>Yeah. I never got why some sort of 'middle party' didn't say to win afghanistan first, before going into Iraq.
The implication was that he was mass producing WMDs, which made it time sensitive. We probably wouldn't have gone at all were it not for that bit of crap intel.

>you guys haven't worked out a doctrine for the new era.
Cyber is still the wild west. It's all extra legal, there's constant intrusions back and forth and the only real limit on a set of actions are access and political pain if it ever comes out.

Then there's that little phrase within the US intelligence community:
>the successful ops are the ones no one ever hears about
or conversely
>they only hear about us when we fuck up
which makes me wonder just how much has happened already that we've just never heard about. Bit like the submarine service in that regard, and the general public never got a full employment policy/response tree walkthrough on them either.

>Hope you guys work out a way to recruit.
That's one thing I can say with confidence that we have zero issues with. We can always use more and better, but we're pretty well off comparatively.

>>31372344
>You're losing the PR game in SE Asia.
>Fix it you dumb cunts.
The only region more diplomatically byzantine and ridiculous than the ME is SE Asia. But two things will always be true:
>Someone will always be pissed off at Uncle Sam / Can't make everyone happy
and
>China will find a way to piss everyone off
Comes and goes in cycles. Just wait and see.

>>31367908
You have to go back

>>31368201
The USA is controlled by Jews. Our entire foreign policy consists of what's good for the Jews.

>>31368497
None of those sources are credible

>>31366947
>>31366960
>>31366979
>>31367001

>hi my name is former defense secretary robert gates
>and I am THIS butthurt