Pearl Harbor

>>31349539
Well early radar warning was supposedly mistaken for something else.

>>31349539
yes. the us had broken Japanese cypher machine communication in 1939 and the us was intercepting 30% of the communications. this information was provided directly to the president and later disseminated to the military on a need to know basis.

the us was also aware that an attack was going to take place that weekend.

the american public was also strongly against war and the pearl harbor attack was the perfect means for entry.

>>31349556
>the us had broken Japanese cypher machine communication in 1939
If you don't know anything about a subject, why not just refrain from posting?

It was a good plan, but the top brass let it happen because they needed a pretense for war since America was so much against intervention this time around.

>>31349715
>America was so much against intervention this time around.
No it wasn't but feel free to post proofs.

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>>31349725
>proofs

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>>31349539
It was more or less inevitable. Britain bullied us into cutting off oil and steel from all axis powers sometime earlier.

We knew that would piss off the japs, the people didn't want to fight this war so having the attack happen was a perfect way to get people behind it.

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>>31349539

No. We might have missed the cues for an attack, but it was not on purpose.

Hawaii at the time was a backwater. Everyone was looking at Europe and Herr Hitler.

Pearl was a real kick in the ass.

But if you look at it realistically. We turned up late for WW1 and we turned up late for WW2.

>>31349735

Sweet looking gun.

My biggest problem with the idea is why would you sacrifice a huge chuck of your Pacific fleet, just to go to war to Japan, now without a chunk of your Pacific fleet.

>>31349800
>implying it mattered when america could shit out hundreds of ships per month

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>>31349539
No, that's stupid.

>>31349800
Exactly a failed attack on Pearl by the Japs is just as much a reason for was as a successful one.

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My grandma worked Navy intelligence and swore that they knew beforehand.

>>31349800
To get US out of isolationist attitude.

We declare war on Japan
Germany declares war on US

Now US arms industry is booming with a war on two fronts.

>Teddy Roosevelt saw it coming
>Billy Mitchell saw it coming
>Clair Chennault saw it coming.

FDR had a pretty good idea what was coming.

But let it happen?
I don't anyone in the US really thought It could happen. Not the way it did.

The US wanted to go to war but didnt think the returns of winning were that great until they learned that the Soviets would win and spread communism over Europe.
Thus Pearl Harbor was a perfect front to gain entry into the war while steaing Japanese oil supplying countries

>>31349738

When you get dispatched to a white trash brawl, you don't show up before people are spent.

>>31349539
>Did the US let Pearl Harbor happen on purpose?

no, but they were not aware enough of Japan's aggressive intends. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Panay_incident

>>31349539
No. It was an accident. You know asians are bad drivers, now imagine them having planes and bombs. It was bound to happen but it was an accident.

>>31349800

IIRC most of the ships were salvaged and back in fighting condition in ~1 year anyway

We definitely goaded them into doing it.

We had broken their diplomatic ciphers and intercepted a lot of their messages. So we knew they were up to something.

>>31349556
Dear god the stupidity

Just waiting for someone to go all
>American aggression caused the Jap attack, Japan dindu nuffin wrong

of course they did
its called a casus belli
They needed one to enter the war, its not a concidence that the carriers were on patrol.

>>31349800
Same reason the bomber force was caught on the ground later in the day in the phillipines
Same reason they engaged in island hopping
To drag out the war in the pacific.

They knew the pearl harbor base was exposed, they had to remove the commander of the pacific fleet because he was protesting the move.

WW2 started because FDR was a commie piece of shit, and he promised Britain/France that the US would enter the war on their side. Without that promise it wouldn't have happened.

>>31349556
Letting all the battleships in the Pacific fleet get BTFO is the perfect entry into the war?

False flag is outpost in the Philippines getting hit or civilian liner getting sunk. Not losing thousands of sailors and all your pacific battleships.

>>31350677
>>31350653


I came here to say that you are retarded

>>31350653
Yes, because FDR had a crystal ball and could predict the efficacy of carrier strike force tactics before Pearl Harbor.

>>31350738
>Earlier, on October 21, 1940, CNO had received a memorandum from the President's Naval Aide advising him that President Roosevelt proposed the Navy acquire a merchant ship and convert it to an aircraft carrier, accommodating 8 to 12 helicopters (not yet operated by the Navy) or airplanes capable of landing or taking off in a small space. The purpose of this type carrier was to "provide quick conversions for carrying small planes which could hover ahead of convoys, detect submarines and drop smoke bombs to indicate their locations to an attacking surface escort craft."

Oh look I guess he did! Fucking retard

>>31349800
IIRC the highest value targets, carriers, were away at the time of the attack

The FDR conspiracy theory is ridiculous. If it wasn't Pearl Harbor, the IJN would've attacked somewhere else.

>>31350843
?
If the US pacific fleet hadn't been moved to pearl harbor, there wouldn't have BEEN any place else to attack

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>>31349539
>>31349556
>>31349833
>>31349867

hey its roger posting from my thinkpad edge e530c

first of all let me say OP this is a very interesting subject and because of my expertience in history and warfare naval air and otherwise i am well situation to ansewr this deriseively

so theres an old saying about conspiracy theories that is 100% right 100% of the time: where theres smoke theres fire. now look at how much smoke there was at pearl harbor. so right away u know uve got a big problem

these other posters know about as much about cryptologotigical history as a dog with three (3) dicks so let me break it down for u. we broke basically every japanese code. but problem was we also would let our people write books about it b/c we didn't think the japanese couild read anything less than size 24 font on account of their slanty little eyes. OOPS! anyway they kept on writing new codes and the last one was called purple. (little nown fact: prince was a big historian like me and "purple rain is actually about cumming on a japanese cat")

so we break purple and this guy named colonol bratwurst (RED FLAG) realizes their breaking off relations, and decides to tell all the military bases the japabos are gonna attack. but what does bratwurst do? does he e-mail? no. does he signal? no. "does he teletype?" no. motherfucking guy sends the shit western union

so here's the FIRE. ("don't judge a book by its cover"). brat obviously kenw that theyre breaking off relations meant they had moved aircreft carriers up and were gonna bomb pearl habor. ITS FUCKING OBVIOUS ANDY. and he also knew that we were gonna get kind of bombed but not really. and he probably new our aircraft carriers were gonna be out at exactly the moment the japense wer gonna bomb. HOW COULD YOU NOT RANDY??? and so he was a true patriot and realized this was the only way to be hitler, so when his wife asked him what he was doing he said the only thing a real american military man can ever say. "MY JOB"

>>31350888
I stopped 3 paragraphs in.
You're fucking retarded.

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>>31350790
You're one of those guys that looks at the 1940's/1950's popular mechanics and says "Why didn't they DO that? They HAD the technology! It would have won them the WAR!"

>>31350913
We are way past retardation here. Its either trolling or a badly made bot.

>>31350821
That's true but at rhe time did we really know that carriers would become the focus of naval warfare. I think at the time battleships were still thought of as the primary capital ship with carriers supporting them, then after pearl our doctrine changed to reflect what happend at pearl. And like someone said even if we knew and were ready for the japs when they showed up that still would have been a good reason to go to war, but without losing our battleships

>>31350967
see
>>31350790
It was obvious and known.

>>31349800
Nearly all of the ships in pearl were in the process of being replaced. Most were old and new ships were currently being built in Drydock along the west coast.

>>31350790
>Earlier, on October 21, 1940, CNO had received a memorandum from the President's Naval Aide advising him that President Roosevelt proposed the Navy acquire a merchant ship and convert it to an aircraft carrier, accommodating 8 to 12 helicopters (not yet operated by the Navy) or airplanes capable of landing or taking off in a small space.
You wouldn't happen to have that memorandum, would you?

>>31350790
>>31350971
>Cutting-edge technology and tactics that aren't even used heavily is "obvious and known."
And
>1940
>Helicopter carriers

I'm dying

>>31350854
The USN thought that if it came to a war, the Philippines would be the most likely initial target. Pearl Harbor was thought to be protected by several natural factors, including distance and a shallow harbor that was believed to be torpedo-proof.

>>31349539
What difference does it make?

>>31351097
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O._Richardson

Why tell lies?

>>31351109
a lot, Hillary

and yes, they knew it was coming. The American people "needed a reason to get angry and support a war"

here's why Pearl Harbor happened. The Army and the Navy were in a pissing match to control signals intel gathering, analysis, and dissemination of Japanese signals in the Pacific. FDR split the baby and declared that the Navy got even number days, and the Army got odd number days. Real smart huh? Except there was no sharing between the Army and the Navy. Not even some sort of joint command. At his heart FDR was a Commie (SocSec, the Works Program) and he really was happy keeping our isolationist policy in place and ignoring the war in Europe UNTILL Germany attacked Russia

>>31351193
>At his heart FDR was a Commie (SocSec, the Works Program) and he really was happy keeping our isolationist policy in place and ignoring the war in Europe UNTILL Germany attacked Russia
Lend lease was approved before Germany attacks Russia.

You are right about FDR being a commie though, he wanted to support the USSR.

>>31349539
Of course nigger, wars are planned. Don't be a fool your whole life. We need to do something drastic to flip the ones who are in power.

>>31351004
>have new battleships not expected to be finished until 1942-4 (all in the east coast btw)
>let's let the ones we have get sunk lmao
genius

>>31351072
Probably comes from anons favorite Clive Cussler novel

>>31350790
That's suggesting the use of carriers as escorts, not as capital ship killers

>>31351378
Battleships didn't do shit. Less than 3% of their shells actually hit opposing ships and bombing before an island invasion didn't do anything as the enemy was well dug in and just waited out the bombardment.

>>31350948
It's also clearly talking about carriers as a supporting role, not a primary capital ship role.

>>31349838
This

>>31349800
For plausible deniability.

The US was always going to outbuild Japan if it came down to it. The Japs knew it too.

"I can make up a motive" is not the same thing as proof.

>>31351509
>what is morale

plus 3% hit rate isnt bad, especially at 10+miles. how many rounds did infantry use per casualty? hundreds per casualty in ww2 and its only gone up. i read once that in the ME US ground forces were expending over 100k rounds for every confirmed kill. and after watching some helmet cam videos, i can believe it.

>>31351509
And the US knew this before they even went to war of course.

>>31351509
Thanks for the hindsight, retard.

>>31351549
I'm an old infantryman and we used to say that any good enemy is worth a thousand rounds per pound.

Served in Babylon, Iraq. We dug that city up and turned it inside out looking for Hitlers old occult and SS shit. Lots of enfields. Lots of flags. We had a forensics team checking a building that supposedly housed the spear of Longinus for a time.

Idk if they let it happen but they definitely goaded the nips into starting something sooner or later.

The real question is why did the US declare war on Germany, a country that had nothing to do with the Pearl Harbor attack, after Pearl? It was really FDR's way of getting the US involved in Europe and helping out uncle Joe. A tremendous amount of the early reporting (and some of the preliminary govt reports IIRC) said that Germany attacked Pearl either for or with the Japanese.

It was a political masterstroke on FDR's part setting the whole thing up. Posture for war with Germany for years, let everyone know the Hun has returned and is a threat to democracy, that they can invade tomorrow etc. so that if something happens everyone will immediately think Germany did it. You can watch interviews and read reports where soldiers and sailors at Pearl thought it was the Germans at first and were surprised when they could get looks at pilots on strafing runs and they weren't white. The general populus also immediately thought it was Germany. A poll done like dec 5 or 6 1941 showed that most people were as of then against war with germany. A poll done rigt after Pearl showed like 90% in favor of war with Germany. This is also why America First disbanded, almost everyone was of the assumption Germany did it.

A lot of this was orchestrated by FDR's friends in the media and a Canadian agent for the brits in the US named William Stephenson (who was alos probably responsible for he death of an anti war businessman).

Here's a good book about all this:
https://www.rienner.com/title/Hitler_Attacks_Pearl_Harbor_Why_the_United_States_Declared_War_on_Germany

And an hour long vid summarizing the book:
https://youtu.be/PLJRMH-sjak

The US didn't let Pearl Harbor happen. Don't be daft.

FDR was baiting the Japs and Hitler into action, but if we could have stopped Pearl from happening, we would have.

>>31351873
Germany declared war on the USA first you dunce.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_declaration_of_war_against_the_United_States_(1941)

>>31349539
>Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

>>31351873
>The real question is why did the US declare war on Germany, a country that had nothing to do with the Pearl Harbor attack, after Pearl?
Because Germany had already declared war on the US? Because they were allied with someone we were at war with? Because our allies were at war with Japan and Japanese allies? Because it was in our interests to do so?

>>31351219
I guess it's a good thing he died before the war was over

>>31349539
No, it was a combination of overconfidence, incompetence, and bad luck. The US WAS expecting war with Japan, but predicted that fighting would be focused on their Pacific holdings, and massed carrier strikes weren't a thing yet so as far as the US knew, Pearl was untouchable. As such, anything that should have clued them in to a potential attack was not taken seriously.

And yes, the US did see the Japanese planes on radar, but they just so happened to be coming in at the same time a flight of friendly bombers were supposed to arrive, so it was written off.

Now, overall, I think FDR knew something eventually was going to happen that would pull the US into the war, but I don't believe he personally signed off on allowing Pearl to be attacked.

>>31352027
>>31352056

The book (and vid) cover this. Hitler's speech was actually very poorly translated in the news at the time so it seemed like he was taking a very aggressive posture when he really wasn't. Hitler basically saying "yeah, lend lease is a thing, so really we've been at war with the US this whole time" got turned into "we will agressivley pursue a policy of war with the US". Also FDR ordered US ships to engage German naval vessels just after Pearl IIRC. Germany's "declaration of war" was still also a shit reason to go to war with them. What would they have done, landed panzergrenadiers at Cony Island?

Also "they were at war with our allies" is a shitty and stupid arguement. If we were to actually hold nations to this standard the Brits should have invaded Finland during the continuation war. But like anon mentioned, it all came down to being in "our interests" as a nation to do so. Of course who this "our" is and why it is "our interest" is rarely ever explained.

>>31352305
Bro, you dumb.

"According to the terms of their agreements, Germany was obliged to come to the aid of Japan if a third country attacked Japan, but not if Japan attacked a third country. Ribbentrop reminded Hitler of this, and pointed out that to declare war against the US would add to the number of enemies Germany was fighting against, but Hitler dismissed this concern as not being important,[3] and, almost entirely without consultation, chose to declare war against the US, wanting to do so before, he thought, Roosevelt would declare war on Germany.[4][5][6]"

>>31352320

Please explain how I'm dumb. Just putting up a quote doesn't respond to any of my points.

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>>31352380

>The entire basis of your argument gets directly refuted
>"How does this make me dum???"

>>31352305
So we shouldn't wage war against countries that declare war on us? What kind of limp dick pussy shit is that? Fuck that.

>>31352305
>The book (and vid) cover this. Hitler's speech was actually very poorly translated in the news at the time so it seemed like he was taking a very aggressive posture when he really wasn't. Hitler basically saying "yeah, lend lease is a thing, so really we've been at war with the US this whole time" got turned into "we will agressivley pursue a policy of war with the US".
Literally no.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/gerdec41.asp

>Germany's "declaration of war" was still also a shit reason to go to war with them.
You're retarded.

>What would they have done, landed panzergrenadiers at Cony Island?
Again, you're retarded.
Also
>Implying the Nazis didn't ever reach the US

>Also "they were at war with our allies" is a shitty and stupid arguement.
Literally kill yourself. That is the basis behind every single military alliance in human history.

>Brits should have invaded Finland during the continuation war.
They literally attacked Finland repeatedly

>Of course who this "our" is and why it is "our interest" is rarely ever explained.
What are you implying? Because it sure as shit sounds like some stupidity.

>>31352380
>Please explain how I'm dumb
Basically everything you've said is what I'd expect from a idiot. I would say that you have an understanding of history roughly equal to that of a middle-schooler, but that would be an insult to middle-schoolers.

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>>31349556

>>31349738

>Turned up late

Being war profiteers slowed you down.

>>31352467
It's not like the US Army was in any shape to fight to fight in 1939. Lend Lease was a double whammy in that it provided aid to the Allies AND geared up the US' war production at the same time.

>>31352412
>So we shouldn't wage war against countries that declare war on us? What kind of limp dick pussy shit is that? Fuck that.

If Tonga declared war on the US tomorrow, should we destroy a small Island in the South Pacific?

>>31352467
>lend lease
>profit

>>31352514
Yes. Even though the comparison is absolute shit, yes.

>>31349539
No. I bet you take The Forgotten Man seriously as well

pearl harbor was holograms wake the fuck up

>>31351549
>plus 3% hit rate isnt bad, especially at 10+miles. how many rounds did infantry use per casualty? hundreds per casualty in ww2 and its only gone up. i read once that in the ME US ground forces were expending over 100k rounds for every confirmed kill. and after watching some helmet cam videos, i can believe it.

Because they were counting overall expenditures by number of confirmed kills. This included rounds used for training.

>>31350790
You realize Japan did exactly that, right? And even them didn't realize the true value of carriers by then.

>>31352419
>>The book (and vid) cover this. Hitler's speech was actually very poorly translated in the news at the time so it seemed like he was taking a very aggressive posture when he really wasn't. Hitler basically saying "yeah, lend lease is a thing, so really we've been at war with the US this whole time" got turned into "we will agressivley pursue a policy of war with the US".
>Literally no.
>http://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/gerdec41.asp

Your link and what I brought up are two different things. Your link is the report of Germany's declaration as it was delivered to the receiving diplomat. I'm talking about the speech Hitler gave announcing the declaration of war. The book covers this, or at least watch the vid.

>>Germany's "declaration of war" was still also a shit reason to go to war with them.
You're retarded.

Why?

>What would they have done, landed panzergrenadiers at Cony Island?
Again, you're retarded.

Please explain why.

>Also
>Implying the Nazis didn't ever reach the US

I never implied they didn't. I know there were spies/sympathisers in the US. The threat they posed however was exaggerated to the point of deception. Once again, see the point in my original post about FDR preening for a war with Germany

This article goes into actual Nazi activity in America and how exaggerated it was: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/10/fdr-s-sorry-domestic-spying-record.html

>>Also "they were at war with our allies" is a shitty and stupid arguement.
Literally kill yourself. That is the basis behind every single military alliance in human history.

Yes, and? How does that mean the US should be involved in any such alliances, which the US explicitly avoided as per the founders' intentions for roughly the first 100 years we were a country.

>>Brits should have invaded Finland during the continuation war.
They literally attacked Finland repeatedly

I legitimately didn't know this.

1/2

>>31352634
Just stop

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>>31349539

I doubt it.

We lost a lot of battleships in the attack, if they'd known it was coming they would have sent more of the fleet out to sea.

It is true that our aircraft carriers were out at sea at the time; but conventional wisdom was that battleships were the key to winning the seas and carriers were a newfangled idea.

Ironically, the destruction of many of our battleships forced Admiral Nimitz to develop new strategies to make the most of aircraft carriers which revolutionized naval warfare and helped win the war.

>>31352419
>>31352634
2/2

>>Of course who this "our" is and why it is "our interest" is rarely ever explained.
What are you implying? Because it sure as shit sounds like some stupidity.

I shouldn't have gone here anon and I admit that. But FDR lied the American people into a war and that grinds my gears.

>>31352651
>Just stop

Stop what? Why? Are you going to explain why I'm wrong? Have you even looked at any of my sources?

>>31352678
How did FDR lie? Germany was an ally of Japan and Japan attacked the the US. Common sense dictates you declare war on the aggressor and their allies.

The president received intercepted cables from the japanese embassy which should have been a red flag.
He knew something was coming, but maybe not exactly what. He let it happen to sway public opinion in favor of joining WW2.

>>31352713

The lie, as I said, was Germany posing a threat to the US.

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>>31349539
No.

Might as well say they let thousands of American soldiers die in the Philippines, and hundreds and thousands of American citizens in the islands imprisoned.

The USA was literally caught by surprise. A vague "ATTACK IMMINENT" wont help them.

>>31352729
What else could he have done? The US was already in the process of reinforcing its Pacific holdings and had war plans in the event they were attacked, but these were all under the assumption that Pearl Harbor was impregnable. Just because FDR had reason to know an attack was coming doesn't necessarily mean he LET it happen.

>>31352634
Holy shit you are dumb. The Germans called our ambassador in and gave him a formal letter declaring war right after the speech. How fucking stupid are you.

>>31352745
Yes, because I'm sure a fascist, highly expansionist dictatorship that's gobbled almost every European democracy certainly won't be a long term threat to the United States.

>>31352767
>What else could he have done? The US was already in the process of reinforcing its Pacific holdings and had war plans in the event they were attacked, but these were all under the assumption that Pearl Harbor was impregnable. Just because FDR had reason to know an attack was coming doesn't necessarily mean he LET it happen.

Put exposed bases on alert?

When war is imminent, you move ships out of a crowded harbor. You bring air defense to the ready. You take radar blips more seriously. You put out scouting planes and ships.

Sure, it would have been hard to prevent a good whooping at Pearl, but at least some vessels might have made it out and might have delivered a good ass kicking.

>>31352634
>Your link and what I brought up are two different things. Your link is the report of Germany's declaration as it was delivered to the receiving diplomat. I'm talking about the speech Hitler gave announcing the declaration of war.
We're not talking about the speech, we're talking about the declaration of war YOU are claiming was actually the speech and not an actual declaration. No one gives a flying fuck about the speech since Germany *declared war*.

>Why?
>Someone declares war on us
>We shouldn't fight them
That's why you tard.

>Please explain why.
Just because a troop landing wouldn't have happened doesn't mean that the Nazis couldn't do damage to US forces or holdings, kill civilians, or attack around the US.

>I know there were spies/sympathisers in the US.
>What were U-boats off the East Coast
>What was the Battle of the Atlantic
>What was the entire American Theater
Read a book nigger

>How does that mean the US should be involved in any such alliances,
Regardless of whether of not we should have had the alliances is irrelevant, we WERE allied with them, and that means we act accordingly (ie going to war)

>US explicitly avoided as per the founders' intentions for roughly the first 100 years we were a country.
What the founders' intended isn't some holy standard we hold ourselves to, countries and beliefs evolve over time. And given your use of British English, I'm going to tell you to fuck right off with 'the founders' intentions' for the US.

I'm honestly done with you, just spend five minutes critically thinking about everything you've said and stop posting until you realize why what you've said is retarded.

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>>31349556
I bet your the kind of person who believes Japan just wanted to liberate Asia from white colonists.
>Claim to "save asia."
>Attack China.
>Brutalize occupied many Asian countries.

>>31352700
>Stop what?
Existing

>>31352761
>Might as well say they let thousands of American soldiers die in the Philippines,

They did though This was all part of the casus belli.
They retreat into an empty peninsula, leave their supplies behind, get sieged out over MONTHS where the US doesn't resupply them or help them.

Then the bataan death march happens because Japan has to force march the US troops back to where the japs had their supplies.

All propaganda, you think the elites give 2 shits about Americans?

>>31351576
>>31351570

The point being that ships that sank in pearl Harbor had no impact on the war what so ever. Even if none of them sank nothing would of changed.

>>31352700
>Stop what?
Posting about things you know nothing about for starters.

>Are you going to explain why I'm wrong?
Given your inability to accept what the other half-dozen people have already said, I'm not sure I'd accomplish anything.

>Have you even looked at any of my sources?
Yes actually, and none of it is what you suggest, evidentiary of your claims, and/or relevant to what is being discussed.

>>31352320
The whole point of FDR fucking with Japan was to enter the war in europe
Whether Germany declared war or not was irrelevant, FDR was going to get involved.

>>31352817
Except they did! The White House flat out told MacArthur to expect a Japanese attack on the Phillipines. Too bad MacArthur was a fucking idiot and basically handed the islands over to them.

And what part of "assuming Pearl Harbor was impregnable" do you not understand? Pearl was way out of the range of Japanese battleships and the US knew it. Carriers as offensive strike assets was almost unknown at the time.

>>31352833
>implying asians dont have an affinity with brutal rule and giant wars with hundrets of thousands dead
>Quing, Ming, Khmer Rouge, both Vietnam, Korea

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>>31352575
12/7 was an inside job, wake up sheeple

>>31352745
How did they not? Seriously, if literally nothing else they gave material support and aid to the Japan.

Really, you may as well say the Japanese didn't 'pose a threat' to the US. Sure, they didn't really pose an existential threat, but they sure as shit could have killed (and did) kill a truck-load of people.

>>31352898
>Too bad MacArthur was a fucking idiot and basically handed the islands over to them.
Macarthur was following orders ceding the island to them and losing the bomber force on the ground

That was PART OF THE PLAN
You notice he managed to get himself out after abandoning his troops.

>>31352846
Or maybe because the US couldn't send support since THE PACIFIC FLEET WAS AT THE BOTTOM OF PEARL?

>>31352823
you're embarrassing yourself. You would have a decent attempt at an argument if you didn't act like a child.

>>31352846
Sacrificing tens of thousands in manpower, a foothold close to Japan, and getting your BBs BTFO is a recipe for demoralization, not propaganda, you nitwit. Also, the Philippines was a cluster fuck precisely because the Japanese attacked pearl.

>>31352817
Pearl Harbor is on the other side of the planet mate, no one really considered it a viable target for the Japs

>>31352846
Yeah, and I suppose the British losing Singapore to an inferior Japanese force was also part of the Eternal Anglo's designs. Actually never mind, you'd probably unironically agree with that too.

>>31352874
That is not only unequivocally false, you are also drawing upon hindsight. The whole reason the US didn't just reinforce the Philippines and land on Taiwan, Okinawa, etc in 1942 was because the BBs were sunk.

>>31352927
It was MONTHS that they were starving out
Japs did not have many ships or planes in the area, they were at the limits of their supply lines.
The US could have snuck some supply ships through to keep the men supplied.

Did they even ATTEMPT it? nope

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>>31352929

>>31352945
They had to remove the commander of the fleet because he objected to rebasing ships there in 1941, the defenses were not finished, it was within jap strike range.

He knew they were to be bait.

>>31352983
>Let's send unescorted supply ships into Japan's back yard! What's the worst that can possibly happen? It's not like the IJN is still 100% intact and we have zero battleships!

>>31349539
No you jackass

>>31352916
He barely made it out.........

>>31353014
Are we pretending that the whole US fleet was at the bottom of the ocean or something?

There is no need for any large surface ships among those islands, because land based aircraft could reach anywhere they needed.

>>31353013
Japanese CARRIER strike range. But thing is, at the time, battleships were still considered the primary offensive naval asset and NONE of the IJN battleships had the range to reach Pearl. Everybody including the US knew this. Carriers were never part of the equation until Pearl proved their effectiveness.

>>31353034

wut

>>31352916
Yes, being cut off from reinforcement by the Japanese navy had nothing to do with that. Losing the Philippines and thus a foothold close to Japan is all about propaganda and wouldn't be more detrimental to morale than an actual victory like midway.

My great-great-uncle certainly thought so...

FDR did 12/7?

>>31353034
And you're still completely ignoring the fact that the IJN had de facto control of the entire region. How is the USN supposed to reach the Phillipines when all of their major bases in the area have been captured, destroyed, or under siege and behind a cordon of enemy battleships of which you have none of your own to counter?

>>31352877
>>Are you going to explain why I'm wrong?
>Given your inability to accept what the other half-dozen people have already said, I'm not sure I'd accomplish anything.

Please explain what/where I was proven wrong.

>>Have you even looked at any of my sources?
Yes actually, and none of it is what you suggest, evidentiary of your claims, and/or relevant to what is being discussed.

You have to be kidding..., I got a lot of what I said directly from the video about the book.

Please actually address my points.

>>31353013
Exactly, they removed ONE guy, because they thought he was a joke for even suggesting that the Japs might attack Pearl Harbor. The entire idea was ridiculous to every single other person.

>>31352791
>Yes, because I'm sure a fascist, highly expansionist dictatorship that's gobbled almost every European democracy certainly won't be a long term threat to the United States.

No, not when they're duking it out with the Soviets and most of their wartime industry was based on economic whodoo and near total state control. Read "The Wages of Destruction" by Adam Tooze. Nazi Germany was largely a paper tiger.

>>31353053
The point is to drag out tha pacific war and not defeat japan too quickly.

Gotta think about the bigger picture here. Japan was fighting the nationalists in China, Russia was tied up with Germany and couldn't invade manchuria/korea. Had to drag shit out.

>>31353095
Then they put an old guy in charge, who was the fall guy for it. They knew the attack was coming, it was all planned out.

>>31352787
>Holy shit you are dumb. The Germans called our ambassador in and gave him a formal letter declaring war right after the speech. How fucking stupid are you.

I never denied that. All I said was that the speech Hitler gave was misrepresented in the popular media in the US.

>>31350525
Being sunk in a 30 ft harbor has it's advantages of being sunk over the Mariana Trench

>>31353122
Paper tiger does not mean what you think it means. Paper Tigers don't BTFO every democracy minus Switzerland in western Europe by within one year of war being declared.

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>>31353034

>>31353122
>Nazi Germany was largely a paper tiger.
That book is more about disproving that Nazi Germany pulled off some sort of economic miracle or was even sustainable in the first place, not that they weren't really a threat. Besides, hindsight is 20/20.

>>31353131
Except that's a terrible way of dragging it out when they could just take "Germany first" to a greater degree than they did, or order a strategic retreat. Or start with liberating China. Also, the soviets wouldn't need to enter the war with Japan to get territory, since they could make the claim that it was being given back to Russia as punishment for Japan's involvement in WW2.

Finally, if the US had a stronger position in the Pacific, more resources could be sent to Germany to take down Hitler first, which was the strategy to begin with.

>>31353122
We have the benefit of hindsight to realize Germany had no way of winning, but none of the Allies knew it at the time. Europe was occupied and Russia was getting its shit pushed in by Barbarossa. All indications were the Germans being the winning side.

>>31353087
>Please actually address my points.
They've already been addressed by numerous people, stop acting retarded.

>>31352823
>>Your link and what I brought up are two different things. Your link is the report of Germany's declaration as it was delivered to the receiving diplomat. I'm talking about the speech Hitler gave announcing the declaration of war.
>We're not talking about the speech, we're talking about the declaration of war YOU are claiming was actually the speech and not an actual declaration. No one gives a flying fuck about the speech since Germany *declared war*.

I never claimed the declaration of war was actually a speech. I explicitly acknowledged that there was a difference between the speech Hitler gave and the link you gave, which was to the account of the delivery of the official declaration to a US diplomat. And yes, the speech was important because it was a key factor in swaying popular opinion towards war with Germany in the US.

>>Please explain why.
Just because a troop landing wouldn't have happened doesn't mean that the Nazis couldn't do damage to US forces or holdings, kill civilians, or attack around the US.

Yes, but does any of that warrant 500,000+ US servicemen dead, the crippling of the economy, and the re-making of almost every aspect of American life to put in on a wartime footing?

>>I know there were spies/sympathisers in the US.
>What were U-boats off the East Coast
>What was the Battle of the Atlantic
>What was the entire American Theater
Read a book nigger

The U-boats go back to the lend lease issue. The "American Theater" was addressed in the article I linked.

>>31352910
>How did they not? Seriously, if literally nothing else they gave material support and aid to the Japan.
>Really, you may as well say the Japanese didn't 'pose a threat' to the US. Sure, they didn't really pose an existential threat, but they sure as shit could have killed (and did) kill a truck-load of people.

Is any of that worth 500,000+ US deaths, the destruction of the economy,and growth of the powers of government?

>>31353230
>crippling the economy

You do realize Lend Lease and WWII are what made the US the premier economic and military superpower it is today?

>>31353122
>Nazi Germany was largely a paper tiger.
As China and Russia currently are. That doesn't mean they couldn't steam-roll half the planet if they wanted, or that they couldn't royally fuck the US up before losing.

>>31353135
They said Germany declared war first, you replied with

>The book (and vid) cover this. Hitler's speech was actually very poorly translated in the news at the time so it seemed like he was taking a very aggressive posture when he really wasn't. Hitler basically saying "yeah, lend lease is a thing, so really we've been at war with the US this whole time" got turned into "we will agressivley pursue a policy of war with the US".

>I never denied that.
Given the context, you basically did.

>>31353230
Less than 500k US soldiers died in ww2 in all theaters, first of all. Second, when a nation declares war on you, you fuck ingredients kick their shit in. Third, if you acknowledge the massive sacrifice of us servicemen during the war, how the fuck is Germany a paper tiger, and thus not a potential threat to the US? Did you consider that with the vast empires at stake, Germany might harvest those resources to then build a fleet capable of taking on the US? Try thinking for a change.

>>31351621
>We dug that city up and turned it inside out looking for Hitlers old occult and SS shit.
what, really?

>>31353273

No, I didn't. That entire quote from me is just about Hitler's speech. Hitler didn't even say the US declared war first. At least watch the video.

>>31352901
No you jackass, Asians want to be ruled by their own countries, not by foreign cunts even if said cunts are asian.

>>31353131
>Hey, the Japs are going to attack a US base!
>It's probably one of our several South-East Asian bases that's within range of their capabilities and agrees with commonly accepted and used military tactics?
>Nah, it's Hawaii half way around the planet that completely disregards everything we've ever experienced in war, and everything we know about the Japanese.
>

>>31353230
>the crippling of the economy,
Oh thank god, you are a troll. I was concerned how anyone could be this brain damaged without being broccoli

>there are people ITT who seriously believe the attack at Pearl did any significant levels of damage to the USN's capacity to wage war
Do you retards honestly think we were going to let the dirty commies take Japan?

Decisions made during the course of the war with ramifications to this day are not made on the fly. All of this shit is considered.

>>31353289
>Germany might harvest those resources to then build a fleet capable of taking on the US
They'd be insane to try even if they somehow managed to completely subdue Europe, but then again Willy was dumb enough to try it with the British.

>>31353289
>Less than 500k US soldiers died in ww2 in all theaters, first of all

Yeah I was off by 100k. It was closer to 400k, like that is an improvement.

>Second, when a nation declares war on you, you fuck ingredients kick their shit in

Tonga declares war on the US tomorrow. So we should obliterate Tonga?

> Third, if you acknowledge the massive sacrifice of us servicemen during the war, how the fuck is Germany a paper tiger,

It's economy couldn't last and they were being ground down by the Soviets.

>Did you consider that with the vast empires at stake, Germany might harvest those resources to then build a fleet capable of taking on the US? Try thinking for a change.

Yes, and what if Portugal had won the race for the atom bomb? What if the July 20 plot had succeeded? Or what if the USSR decided to turn on the western Allies once the Nazis were out of the way? Let's justify all our future wars with Harry Turtledove novels.

>>31353446
>Or what if the USSR decided to turn on the western Allies once the Nazis were out of the way?
Did they not?

>>31353356
>>the crippling of the economy,
>Oh thank god, you are a troll. I was concerned how anyone could be this brain damaged without being broccoli

Please explain how New Deal programs and wartime production and planning are somehow good for an economy.

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>>31353446
>So we should obliterate Tonga?
as a Samoan I feel this would be appropriate action

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>>31353446
>Tonga declares war on the US tomorrow. So we should obliterate Tonga?
Okay, fuckstick. Let's pose this a different way.

Tonga has no means of waging war on the United States. None whatsoever.

Germany? Did. I'm real damn sure that the US ignoring Germany's declaration of war would have stopped Hitler from sending his U-Boats west and attacking American shipping.

>>31353471
>>Or what if the USSR decided to turn on the western Allies once the Nazis were out of the way?
>Did they not?

Good point. And to think we gave them all of that industrial capacity for free. IIRC there was an entire book about how copies of Ford trucks started showing up in North Vietnam and traced back to the beginnings of lend lease from there.

Let's not forget that Enterprise was scheduled to be in Pearl Harbor when the Japanese attacked but FDR used the secret US weather control device to slow it down with a storm.

>>31353473
You...You don't actually know anything bout American history or even basic economics, do you?

>>31353473
>lack of consumer confidence and credit means that labor is being underused
>government programs stimulate demand
>people who get jobs to fill that demand then spend money
>consumer spending creates more jobs
>????????
>economy back to full capacity

Mixed economics is for winners.

>>31353482
Germany had no fucking means of waging war on the US, anymore than tonga or liberia or w/e

>>31352525
Profit doesn't always mean money

Consider the USA-UK destroyers for bases agreement and the Tizard mission

>>31353446

>Tonga declares war on the US tomorrow. So we should obliterate Tonga?

Not a proper metaphor at all. Nazi Germany presented a clear and present danger to US shipping via U-boats as while as a direct threat to Britain and France, nations which the US has a deep historical connect towards.

>>31353482
>Tonga has no means of waging war on the United States. None whatsoever.

Yes.

>Germany? Did. I'm real damn sure that the US ignoring Germany's declaration of war would have stopped Hitler from sending his U-Boats west and attacking American shipping.

But they were doing that already, remember. And wasn't the standard some anon set "existential threat to the US" a second ago? When did it become "can harass shipping"?

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>>31353473
>how is throwing an effectively unlimited amount of money at the economy demanding things that require almost everyone to be in a job to fulfill good for the economy

Literally nobody but braindead morons denies WW2 was good for the US economy. The boom of the 1950s didn't just get farted out of Eisenhower's ass.

These threads always give me a good chuckle between the trolls, retards, and the informed people who actually think their facts will get to either of the first two

>>31353506

>Germany had no fucking means of waging war on the US

Then it was a pretty big mistake for them to declare war on the US.

>>31353506
>Germany had no fucking means of waging war on the US
>A large European nation with a massive modernized military and who is actively aggressive and threatening you isn't a threat
wew lad

>>31353506
>the second happy time did not happen

>>31353512
I'm not that anon. And "harrassing" shipping has been a casus belli since ancient times, and sinking all American-flagged ships that you see goes a good deal beyond "harassing".

>>31353533
>Country with no navy can wage war against a naval power across thousands of miles of ocean

uh huh
Time to go fire bomb cities and hand half the continent to the communists huh

>>31353506
Barring all the other stupidity...
>All those German U-boats that attacked off the East Coast never happened

>>31353546
Arming one side is a fucking act of war
They were all legitimate targets.

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>>31353542
>Time to go fire bomb cities
>"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everybody else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put that rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now, they are going to reap the whirlwind."

Talk shit get hit, Adolf.

>>31353512
>And wasn't the standard some anon set "existential threat to the US" a second ago?
Excuse me, but that was me, and I was pointing out that even if it wasn't an existential threat, they could still very easily attack and severely harm US assets, and would thus still be a threat.

Don't accuse us of being the goal-post movers faggot.

>>31353574
Small amounts of bombing for effect and against military targets is a bit different from willful targeting of women & children & refugees because you are evil anglo piece of shit m8

>>31353565
And attacking a nation's shipping is ALSO an act of war.

So nice for you to finally agree with us.

>>31353542
>germany had no navy
wat

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>>31353583
>the Rotterdamn Blitz was against a military target
>the destruction of Warsaw was against a military target

If "bombing for effect" is all one needs to make bombings legal, I guess Dresden was pretty legal too then. It sure was effective.

>>31353542
Can we just get to the 'da nazis waz good boys who dindu nuffin' stupidity already? This is getting tiresome

>>31350888
You're actually retarded.

>>31353446
We should obliterate Tonga right now, whether they declare war or not.

They're worthless.

>>31353494
>You...You don't actually know anything bout American history or even basic economics, do you?

Educate me.

>>31353504
>>lack of consumer confidence and credit means that labor is being underused
>>government programs stimulate demand
>>people who get jobs to fill that demand then spend money
>>consumer spending creates more jobs
>>????????
>>economy back to full capacity
>Mixed economics is for winners.

Government sure is gonna stimulate all the demand for public works and raked leaves.

>>31353514
>>how is throwing an effectively unlimited amount of money at the economy demanding things that require almost everyone to be in a job to fulfill good for the economy
>Literally nobody but braindead morons denies WW2 was good for the US economy. The boom of the 1950s didn't just get farted out of Eisenhower's ass.

It's not like all the new deal programs ended with the end of the war and all the people and resources dedicated to the war effort were free to be productive or anything. Remember there was a recession right after the war ended because the economy had to correct for being fucked for so long.

>>31353565
>>31353585
This, so nice for you to finally admit it.

>>31353295
Yeah, man. Hitler wasn't looking for that shit just to stroke his dick with. Men and countries have been searching for ancient shit, occult shit, etc shit, since the beginning. The Catholics were awesome at it. We found lots of shit from crusade days. That whole city is an absolute hotbed for anything weird and old.

There's a lot of old christian shit in there, too. A lot of it is relevant to shit straight out the bible. Any kind of artifacts, dirt, bone, whatever, we sent off to the States for testing.

Sometimes they'd find something good and the whole place would go on line. There'd be air cover within minutes and a bird in to pick it up and take it off to who the fuck knows wherever.

>>31353533
>>A large European nation with a massive modernized military
>invades Russia in horse carts
>large modernized military

>>31353583
>because you are evil anglo piece of shit m8
Aw shit, we getting to the 'nazis dindu nuffin' post? Hang on, I need my popcorn

>>31353585
If its an act of war how come the US didn't do shit about it? Oh right because it ain'nt

>>31353617
>Government sure is gonna stimulate all the demand for public works and raked leaves.
>he said as if public works aren't good to begin with
>he said as if the people building these works don't get paid
>he said as if the people building these works didn't then go on to spend their salaries on consumer goods, which then created more jobs

Neo-keynesian economics best economics.

>>31353539
>I'm not that anon. And "harrassing" shipping has been a casus belli since ancient times, and sinking all American-flagged ships that you see goes a good deal beyond "harassing".

Yes, and whenever governments didn't want wars they either sicced privateers on the harassers or upped the protection of their merchant fleets. When the cost of those two v. full scale war is weighed, which do you think costs less in lives and money?

>>31353634
You do realize we STILL use horses, right? And even in WW2, horses were still a pretty damn good and widespread means for logistics to use.

>>31353579
>they could still very easily attack and severely harm US assets, and would thus still be a threat.

Cost of beefing up convoys in lives and resources v. cost of full scale war. Which is actually cheaper, and which one is better for achieving political goals?

>>31353670
>You do realize we STILL use horses, right?
Not as draft animals.

>And even in WW2, horses were still a pretty damn good and widespread means for logistics to use.
Not in the dead of winter they weren't.

>>31353670
>You do realize we STILL use horses, right? And even in WW2, horses were still a pretty damn good and widespread means for logistics to use.

Germany couldn't/didn't even account for the fact that the railway gage sizes were different. I very highly doubt they were using horse carts because they could recognize their logistical benefits, especially in light of the fact the Russians were destroying anything that could sustain livestock.

>>31353659
>>31353680
Are you actually suggesting that a country should ignore being attacked by another, because it's cheaper than out-right war?

I've said it somewhat jokingly before, but are you ACTUALLY retarded? Like no joke, are you? Because that's probably one of the stupidest things I've seen on k, and I've seen some dumb ass shit here.

>which one is better for achieving political goals?
What political goals? You keep skirting around the topic, but I'm pretty sure you're just avoiding saying something about a Jewish conspiracy, the 'holohoax', and something glorifying the Nazis.

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>>31353659
>Why couldn't everyone just sit back and let Germany attack them with impunity GOD

>>31353131
Jesus fucking christ, you are one paranoid human bean

>>31353721
?
it happens all the time
see: The US ignoring getting attacked by Saudi's
see: The US ignoring getting attacked by Israel
see: The US ignoring getting attacked by Mexico

>>31353644
>>Government sure is gonna stimulate all the demand for public works and raked leaves.

I wasn't being sarcastic when I said this. they actually paid people to rake leaves. That doesn't compare to destroying crops and killing livestock when people were starving though.

>>he said as if public works aren't good to begin with

When you're flooding valleys and destroying towns in Tennessee just so you can make work, maybe it isn't the best idea.

>>he said as if the people building these works don't get paid

Yes, they get paid for generating no actual wealth or economic benefit whatsoever, which usually has to lead to our buddy inflation when its government that's paying them,

>>he said as if the people building these works didn't then go on to spend their salaries on consumer goods, which then created more jobs

Then why the fuck did commercial consumption stay near stagnant during the whole depression and only improved after a bunch of programs got the boot from the supremes?

>>31353746
>see: The US ignoring getting attacked by Saudi's
when

see: The US ignoring getting attacked by Israel
when

>see: The US ignoring getting attacked by Mexico
when

I can think of examples, but I want to know exactly which you're talking about, so I can tell you to shut your whore mouth.

>>31353793
>when
9/11
>when
uss liberty
>when
been sleeping the last like 40 years?

>>31353721
>Are you actually suggesting that a country should ignore being attacked by another, because it's cheaper than out-right war?

No, I very clearly said it should either hire privateers or up the protection of its merchant fleets.

>What political goals? You keep skirting around the topic, but I'm pretty sure you're just avoiding saying something about a Jewish conspiracy, the 'holohoax', and something glorifying the Nazis.

I very clearly stated how Britain used agents to provoke the US into the war (fun fact: Roald Dahl did this), FDR wanted to help out Uncle Joe, and how a war was such a great excuse to expand government power over the economy and civil liberties just like his hero Benito did.

>>31353738

See above.

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There are people posting ITT that truly make gliderfag and battleship fetishists look like Nikola Tesla in comparison. Maybe it's about being contrarian at all cost?

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>>31350888
This is the funniest thing I've seen on /k/ in a long time. Thanks for the sensible chuckle.

>>31353874

Scratch that, it's just one guy, isn't it?

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>>31353839
>FDR loved Stalin and Mussolini
>at the same time

>>31353941

Stalin was more FDR's advisers.

FDR's favorite film was about a charismatic fascist dictator taking over the US. And he helped write it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Over_the_White_House

>>31353900
dear god i hope so.

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>>31353819
Thanks anon, you made my day

>>31350888
made my day anon thank you

>>31353839
>hire privateers to defend against submarines
>merely react to submarine attacks instead of being proactive and attacking the nation in question

>>31353958
>FDR's favorite film was about a charismatic fascist dictator taking over the US.
>Someone's favorite movie is indicative of anything

>And he helped write it.
>manholding'citationrequired'sign.png

>>31352980
Except that the ships in Pearl were old as fuck and their replacements were near completion. And even if we had those ships we wouldn't send them to the Philippines, if we did the Japanese would of just sunk them there unless the US was going to commit its carriers to the region that early as well.

The objective of Pearl was to get our Carriers. They destroyed 2 battleships and damaged some others. It had no effect on the war.

>>31354032

I linked to the article right there in my post. FDR was a huge fan of Benito Mussolini, did everyone not know this?

>>31352467
>>31353508
Considering the monetary value of all the materials sent to the Allies in the lend-lease, not to mention all the personnel and ships lost to German anti-shipping, a few diplomatic agreements don't really add up to profit. Also consider that to this date only 2 or 3 countries have repaid any significant portion of the lend-lease debt.
Adjusted for inflation, the total cost of the lend-lease program would probably be in the trillions in today's money.

>>31354072
US looted tons of shit from Britain/France/Germany
Then made them dismantle their empires.

>>31354023
>>hire privateers to defend against submarines

Then go with option 2 and beef up naval protection.

>>merely react to submarine attacks instead of being proactive and attacking the nation in question

Cost of full scale war v. cost of better shipping protection. Besides, without lend lease there would have been little to no submarine attacks anyway.

>>31353941
FDR is NOT my presidnet he is fascist communist and probbaly jewish as well :DD. heil hitler

>>31354092
>FDR is NOT my presidnet he is fascist communist and probbaly jewish as well :DD. heil hitler

FDR didn't give a shit about the Jews. When Jan Karsky briefed him about everything going on in occupied Poland the only question he asked how the horses were being treated.

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>>31354070
>FDR not listed in "Written by" section

But also
>Favorite film
>"Roosevelt saw the movie several times and enjoyed it." means favorite now
and
>FDR was a fan of Mussolini
>Literally nothing about Mussolini other than the LoC comment is mentioned
The source you gave proves literally nothing you've said

>>31354106
>the only question he asked how the horses were being treated.
Got a source on that?

>>31354085
Because Nazi Germany is not some ubernation that gets to attack people with impunity, fuckstick. The onus is on YOU to stop attacking them, not on them to not go after your ass.

>>31353585
Not when it's a neutral nation trading war material to an enemy nation. It's understood by all parties that the neutral nation must be willing to accept that their trade will be subject to interdiction, but that all of the neutral countries personnel would be afforded the courtesy of time to escape if the opportunity was present. This is one of the reasons German U boats would give merchant ships time to evacuate before they sank the ships if the U boat had the time to do so.
This is why the British Q ships were frowned upon, as it gave the Germans a legitimate reason to avoid these pleasantries.

>>31353642
You mean something like actively sinking uboats off the east coast? Because we did that.

>>31353632
photos?
examples of what you found?

>>31354114
>>FDR not listed in "Written by" section

Later in the article

> as well as to be an instructional guide for FDR, who read the script during the campaign. He liked it so much that he took time during the hectic first weeks of his presidency to suggest several script rewrites that were incorporated into the film

>FDR was a fan of Mussolini
>Literally nothing about Mussolini other than the LoC comment is mentioned
The source you gave proves literally nothing you've said

Yeah, there's nothing in there about FDR admiring Mussolini. I suggest the book "Three New Deals" for a better examination of that topic.

>>31353680
Bombing the shit out of Germany is cheaper in the long run, because they formally declared war on the US, you pig shit.

>>31354138

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Karski

He then traveled to the United States, and on 28 July 1943 Karski personally met with President Franklin D. Roosevelt in the Oval Office, telling him about the situation in Poland and becoming the first eyewitness to tell him about the Jewish Holocaust.[10] During their meeting Roosevelt asked about the condition of horses in Poland.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/8460682/Story-of-a-Secret-State-by-Jan-Karski-review.html

>Stowing himself on a ship, Karski reached London where he had an interview with the foreign secretary Anthony Eden, the first of many top officials to effectively ignore his account of the Nazis’ systematic effort to exterminate European Jewry. The very enormity of Karski’s report paradoxically worked against him being believed, and paralysed any action against the killings.
Logistically unable to reach Poland, preoccupied with fighting the war on many fronts, and unwilling to believe even the Nazis capable of such bestiality, the Allies put the Holocaust on the back burner.
When Karski took his tale across the Atlantic, the story was the same. President Roosevelt heard him out, then asked about the condition of horses in Poland. Another high-ranking official, Felix Frankfurter, though Jewish himself, told Karski: “I’m not calling you a liar. It’s just that I have difficulty in believing you.” In desperate frustration Karski wrote this book to record in searing detail what he had seen with his own eyes.

>>31354141
>Because Nazi Germany is not some ubernation that gets to attack people with impunity, fuckstick. The onus is on YOU to stop attacking them, not on them to not go after your ass.

What are you even getting at?

>>31354145
...in World War 1.

Germany kicked off WW2 with unrestricted submarine warfare from the get-go.

>>31353785
You see, the level of production necessary to feed, arm, and clothe 16 million servicemen + our allies is enough to put the entire nation to work. There's your "actual production" you massive faggot.

New Deal was kind of a flop, but WW2 made the US an economic titan.

>>31354172
>Bombing the shit out of Germany is cheaper in the long run, because they formally declared war on the US, you pig shit.

I guess we're nuking Tonga then.

>>31354052
Battleships AND carriers. And since the japs had knowledge that the carriers were at sea and still launched the attack it should give you an idea that they still considered battleships and a Mahan-like "decisive battle" the biggest threat to their pacific strategy

>>31354203
good, fuck Tonga.

>>31354201
>You see, the level of production necessary to feed, arm, and clothe 16 million servicemen + our allies is enough to put the entire nation to work. There's your "actual production" you massive faggot.

Yes, and we could fix the shitty labor force participation rate right now by having people dig holes.

>but WW2 made the US an economic titan.

Yeah, because we've been making 1940s era military hardware since and we all know that is what makes an economy boom.

>>31354178
propaganda

>>31354147
We were running security. The city itself was always pretty quiet. It's a weird place. Once in a while you'd get some shitbag transporting weapons through or you'd get people spotting you. But it was just a weirdly slow, somber place.

I know they got some cool stuff. I remember helping to dig dirt and rocks, once. Soil samples or whatever the fuck they do. Science.

But the story goes, there's all kinds of shit out there that we haven't even begun to imagine fucking with. When you got people drooling and jerking over a pot of magic soil that they'll send to the other side of the planet under tight security and secrecy....

Who knows. Maybe in 20yrs we'll be creating the holy hand grenade.

>>31354220

Niue and Tokelau are next.

>>31354080
>US looted tons of shit from Britain/France/Germany
>Then made them dismantle their empires.
Wut.
Their pre-war empires fell apart because they couldn't afford to maintain them economically. Both countries were devastated and almost completely broke at the end of the war. Not to mention that Britain had already lost much of its empire before the war began. France was even worse off than Britain was by the end of the war. Fully half of their entire country was churned up battlefield filled with scrap and ordinance.

>>31354230
Patton stole the Spear of Longinus from Hitler.

>>31354153
>Later in the article
Shit, I'm sorry. I should have read more carefully. That's interesting, but I am still going to maintain everything else you've said is pants-on-head retarded.

>I suggest the book "Three New Deals" for a better examination of that topic.
I'm going to read that book, but off the bat, "Roosevelt himself called Mussolini “admirable” and professed that he was “deeply impressed by what he has accomplished.”

Basically everyone said that about Mussolini (and Hitler) prior to the wars.

>>31354192
You're the one saying that the United States should have just let Germany attack their ships whenever they wanted, and not respond in kind.

You're putting the onus of the war on the US for responding to Germany's declaration, not on Germany declaring war in the first place.

>>31354199
Same treaties still applied.

>>31354052
If we had those ships, then we would certainly put them to use patrolling shipping lanes to the Philippines and engaging the Japanese navy, disrupting their ability to send supplies and manpower to the southern pacific. Thing is, the Japanese introduced carrier strike force tactics, which threw conventional naval strategy out the window. Unless you can show me fdr's crystal ball that he used to predict the use of carriers as an independent strike force rather than shipping escorts like you did up there, consider yourself absolutely BTFO.

>>31354259
And Germany happily ignored them.

>>31354201
>New Deal was kind of a flop, but WW2 made the US an economic titan.
>kind of a flop
More like epic disaster that we're still feeling the aftershocks of.

>>31354252
>You're the one saying that the United States should have just let Germany attack their ships whenever they wanted, and not respond in kind.

No, I very clearly said that the appropriate action is self defense or privateering. German ships in your waters? Go ahead and sink/capture. The point is you give a proportional response.

>You're putting the onus of the war on the US for responding to Germany's declaration, not on Germany declaring war in the first place.

All of this was already gone over earlier in the thread.

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>>31354230
thanks for the story

pic related is Ur.

>>31354178
You realize that that wasn't 'not giving a shit', that was, as your link writes:

Logistically unable to reach Poland, preoccupied with fighting the war on many fronts, and unwilling to believe even the Nazis capable of such bestiality, the Allies put the Holocaust on the back burner. When Karski took his tale across the Atlantic, the story was the same."

Yeah, I'll admit the horse comment is off, but it's hardly proof of him not giving a shit. Don't get me wrong, I don't think ANY of the allied leaders cared as much about the Jews as a lot of people think, but that doesn't mean they didn't care at all.

>>31354267
And any time it was proven that the treaties were violated, the Germans would make a show of punishing those that violated them. Diplomatically speaking, the US couldn't do much without proof that the Germans specifically ordered their captains to violate the treaties.

>>31349539
Here is a worse conspiracy theory

The jews did 911

>>31354228
Don't get salty because you got told. Accept it. WW2 was one of the greatest economic boosts in US history. Unlike holes in the ground, guns, food, clothing, ships, trucks, tanks, railway cars, medicine, planes, and a fuck ton of bombs are actual products with actual worth that were compensated through wages and earnings, stimulating the economy. New advances in production brought about by the need to match demand, such as synthetic rubber, also contributed to the massive economic boom.

>>31354325
>Yeah, I'll admit the horse comment is off, but it's hardly proof of him not giving a shit. Don't get me wrong, I don't think ANY of the allied leaders cared as much about the Jews as a lot of people think, but that doesn't mean they didn't care at all.

FDR's state department and white house turned away boats of Jewish refugees who ultimately ended up back in Europe.

I'd argue the fact they dismissed all of these claims right off the bat and were also willing to look the other way on Stalin's evil shit and then break the Geneva convention by forcefully repatriating a bunch of people to Stalin after the war is a pretty good indicator they really didn't care about anyone's atrocities, not just the Nazis killing the Jews.

But I may be wrong and you may be right.

>>31354372
>Don't get salty because you got told. Accept it. WW2 was one of the greatest economic boosts in US history. Unlike holes in the ground, guns, food, clothing, ships, trucks, tanks, railway cars, medicine, planes, and a fuck ton of bombs are actual products with actual worth that were compensated through wages and earnings, stimulating the economy. New advances in production brought about by the need to match demand, such as synthetic rubber, also contributed to the massive economic boom.

Go read The Road to Serfdom. You may be in need of its message.

>>31354295
There is absolutely no obligation to limit oneself to a proportional response in war, be it moral, diplomatic, or otherwise. You pulled that straight out your ass. You don't win a war by limiting yourself arbitrarily. You win by actually trying to win. For example, if Germany is sending ships to sink your own, you not only sink those ships, you destroy their ability to make more. Once you do that, you prevent them from repairing or replacing those facilities. Then, you prevent them from taking back those facilities. You keep going until unconditional surrender and take a piss in the Rhine. That's how you win, which is what we did.

>>31354372
lol
you are delusional
ww2 is a massive example of the broken window theory

>>31354437
>There is absolutely no obligation to limit oneself to a proportional response in war, be it moral, diplomatic, or otherwise. You pulled that straight out your ass. You don't win a war by limiting yourself arbitrarily. You win by actually trying to win. For example, if Germany is sending ships to sink your own, you not only sink those ships, you destroy their ability to make more. Once you do that, you prevent them from repairing or replacing those facilities. Then, you prevent them from taking back those facilities. You keep going until unconditional surrender and take a piss in the Rhine. That's how you win, which is what we did.

And here is where the whole cost/benefit thing comes into play. Cost of fulls scale war v. cost of beefing up merchant protection. Also, by your logic a whole bunch of shit the Nazis and Nips did was A-OK because they were trying to win.

>>31354406
Fuck you. You can't elucidate your point worth a damn, so you fall back on a book? How about you go out and buy that book for me since I'm not wasting money on bullshit you don't even understand well enough to formulate in an argument. How about you read "Economic history for absolute fucking retards" because that would be just perfect for you.

>>31354465
Except taking down Berlin IS merchant protection, and completely justified by the fact that they declared fucking war on us. If we take down Berlin, merchant protection becomes a lot cheaper because there's no longer a navy to attack our shipping.

Furthermore, whereas the axis declared war on us, no one declared war on the axis, so no, their attacks on the US do not have the same justification as the US attacking them.

>>31354483

Here's the gist of what I'm saying....

All those resources dedicated to the war effort....

That got turned into things which were only useful in a time of war...

Could have been better used....

Generating goods and services....

For use and consumption on an open market.

Its that simple. See:
http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html

>>31354548
>That got turned into things which were only useful in a time of war...
>Could have been better used....
>Generating goods and services....
>For use and consumption on an open market.
Except for the part where most of the people in the US didn't have the money to buy those consumer goods.

>>31354548
No, they couldn't have, because the axis declared war on the US, so the US assigned those resources to winning the war. The economic boost directly resulting from wartime production left the United States an economic titan. People don't magically decide to spend all their money one day and cause an economic boom. WW2 created the spark for massive spending and production. Not your economic headcanon.

>>31354533
>Except taking down Berlin IS merchant protection

But is exponentially more expensive in lives and resources than actual merchant protection.

>and completely justified by the fact that they declared fucking war on us. If we take down Berlin

This may be so, but once again, if Tonga declares war tomorrow....

>If we take down Berlin, merchant protection becomes a lot cheaper because there's no longer a navy to attack our shipping.
Yes, but the cost of taking down Berlin is so great that t probably dwarfs any possible merchant protection cost that would have been otherwise pursued.

>Furthermore, whereas the axis declared war on us, no one declared war on the axis, so no, their attacks on the US do not have the same justification as the US attacking them.

Okay, but once again, Tonga, and the response should be proportional.

>>31354588
>Except for the part where most of the people in the US didn't have the money to buy those consumer goods.

Yes, because the economy was so fucked due to prior government intervention. The way out of the slump however is saving and commercial production, not spending and a wartime economy.

>>31354593
>The economic boost directly resulting from wartime production left the United States an economic titan.

No, you dip. Tanks and battleships are fucking useless in a prosperous peacetime economy. Once again, there was a recession right after the war because the American economy had been fucked for so long and had to re-adjust. Also, if your theory is correct, why was the standard of living during the war so low? Why were gasoline and other things rationed instead of being plentiful and cheap?

>>31354614
Except wartime economy DVD get us out of the depression. This is historical fact.

>>31354680
>Except wartime economy DVD get us out of the depression. This is historical fact.
>DVD

What?

>>31354669
>Why were gasoline and other things rationed instead of being plentiful and cheap?
This isn't even subtle trolling anymore

>>31354669
Gasoline was rationed so they could be used for the war effort. Shortages resulted in advances in production, such as synthetic rubber, that continued to contribute to economic growth. What you are doing is sticking to your Austrian economic ideology because the truth hurts. WW2 helped the US. Also, the post war recession was notable for being short, since the economy was soon booming again. Eisenhower furthered the economic boom through the interstate highway system. Now take your Mises bullshit and shove it up your ass.

>>31354736
Did it was a typo. Sue me, faggot

>>31354594
Tonga again? Let me tell you what happens if any nation, be it tonga or Costa Rica or Panama or Andorra or Nepal declares war on us: we fight that war until they surrender and we win. Then, we impose terms on them such that we believe will prevent them from being able to prosecute a war on us ever again. That's what happens, and that's exactly what we did to Germany. They declared war, and paid the price for it. Docking around in the Atlantic won't end the war, attacking Germany ended the war. And if you want to talk costs, endlessly dicking around in the Atlantic is going to cost us more than sending soldiers to Europe to kill the people building those uboats in the first place, because when they can no longer sick uboats on your ships, you no longer need to pay for all those escorts.

And if you want to assign any kind of blame for wasting resources, blame the Nazis for wasting oxygen thinking up ways to embroiled themselves in wars with their neighbors when they were already economically powerful and prosperous enough to sustain their people without having Danzig.

>>31354743
>Shortages resulted in advances in production, such as synthetic rubber, that continued to contribute to economic growth

Yes, but we only needed that synthetic rubber because we were at war and had a natural rubber shortage because of that. If we weren't at war, the resources put towards its creation would have gone where they were more immediately needed. Also you have to consider all of the R&D that didn't happen because we were at war.

>What you are doing is sticking to your Austrian economic ideology because the truth hurts. WW2 helped the US. Also, the post war recession was notable for being short, since the economy was soon booming again. Eisenhower furthered the economic boom through the interstate highway system. Now take your Mises bullshit and shove it up your ass.

Please explain the actual mechanism by which the war somehow generated the postwar economic boom. Notem it is "post"-war economic boom, as in, it happened in the absence of the war.

>>31354847
>And if you want to assign any kind of blame for wasting resources, blame the Nazis for wasting oxygen thinking up ways to embroiled themselves in wars with their neighbors when they were already economically powerful and prosperous enough to sustain their people without having Danzig.
>they were already economically powerful and prosperous enough to sustain their people without having Danzig.

Read Wages of Destruction by Adam Tooze. The Nazi economic miracle is a myth.

>>31354741

If wartime economies are so great for production then why wasn't it plentiful and cheap? Why did the economic boom only happen after the war when the activity during the war supposedly caused it to happen?

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>>31351193
>Two things that brought us out of a depression and have nothing to do with the markets being controlled by the state or sharing the means of production are communism

Go to bed /pol/

>>31354908
For example, thanks to synthetic rubber, we relied less on rubber imports and could access rubber locally. Furthermore, local production of rubber via synthetics provided jobs and stimulated our domestic economy. That's just one example. Others include jet aircraft, nuclear power, computers, radar, tons of milsurp for the CMP, and rocketry. Not to mention all the food, clothing, and infrastructure equipment demanded by the war effort that was immediately available for the consumer market post war. There are plenty of goods acquired by the military that can also be consumed by the public, and once rationing ceased they found a new market in the public rather than from government contract. Are you ready to admit you were wrong?

>>31354931
Read my dick in your face because you're too fucking retarded to elucidate a point without demanding people go out and buy books you don't understand enough to talk about.

>>31354955
It wasn't a singular date after the war. It started during the war and continued after the war.

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>>31354955
>If wartime economies are so great for production then why wasn't it plentiful and cheap?
Because all that production is consumed via the war effort?

>>31349539

>the few carriers of the pacific fleet are mysteriously sent out before the attack
>communications regularly intercepted
>the white house was warned about an attack on pearl
>the US was yearning for an entry into the war, due to fear of the soviets going all the way to Spain

They knew, they let it happen.

The real question however:

>Did the US let 9/11 happen on purpose?

And keep in mind that the FBI had warned the white house.

>>31355020
>For example, thanks to synthetic rubber, we relied less on rubber imports and could access rubber locally.

Yes, but there would have been no economic need to do any of those things if there had not been a war and rubber was still available on the global market. When natural market forces cause rubber to get too expensive, then people go looking for substitutes and it's cost effective. The positive externalities of a war are still the externalities of a war.

>Furthermore, local production of rubber via synthetics provided jobs and stimulated our domestic economy.

Yes, and breaking windows also stimulates the economy.

> jet aircraft, nuclear power, computers, radar

All of which were either already being worked on before the war or would have been invented anyway.

>tons of milsurp for the CMP

Not a good thing, the government was being wasteful.

>rocketry

Not only did "rocketry" as its own thing exist before the war, but basically all rocketry done during the war was done for the express purpose of developing guided rockets as weapons.

> Not to mention all the food, clothing, and infrastructure equipment demanded by the war effort that was immediately available for the consumer market post war.

Yes, because everyone wants C-rations and P-38 can openers. Think of all the war material that was made, just sat in a depot, and was just scrapped because it was never used. That is a tremendous waste of resources.

>There are plenty of goods acquired by the military that can also be consumed by the public, and once rationing ceased they found a new market in the public rather than from government contract.

Name some.

>>31355050
>It wasn't a singular date after the war

Give me a time frame. When did the prosperity for the civilian people, including increases in standard of living and consumption, start?

Same goes for >>31355118

>>31355222
You know what? Prove your fucking claims first, prove we suffered. You keep talking about how it was all a waste and could have been used elsewhere. Fucking prove it you cunt. Prove that material was wasted.

It is UNIVERSALLY accepted that wartime boosts an economy, it is UNIVERSALLY accepted that WW2 directly resulted in the United States becoming the preeminent economic and militaristic power.

You seem to lack even the most very fundamental basics of economics. We literally teach pre-pubescent children this, and they fucking understand it, no problem.

You seem to think that fighting is a war is not economically worth-while and we shouldn't ever do anything other than the most rudimentary self-defense. Well congratulations, you just revolutionized military and wartime theory. I guess in the millennia of human history and warfare, every single leader, soldiers, worker, and basically every other fucking person has been wrong. We all bow to your infinite fucking wisdom. All hail King Anon.

You're a fucking retard and unironically need to kill yourself.

>>31355206
Of course, you would have to ignore the fact that the war massively advanced said fields to the point where "eventually" may still be decades away at this point were it not for ww2.

Also, synthetic rubber isn't broken windows. Thanks to synthetic rubber, rubber is cheaper, more plentiful, and can be produced in large numbers in the US. That means more jobs for Americans and more rubber that can be utilized for production. That's a discrete economic advantage that's thanks to ww2. Manufacturing had to be improved to meet demand in ww2, and in return, these advances were applied to consumer production for more production post war. Also, ww2 advanced rocketry by generations worth in a short span of time. That's why German rocket science was utilized for the future space programs of the ussr and the US. Finally, military rations are made from food that's later canned. Do you or do you not see canned food on the shelves? How about comic books? Cigarettes? Camping equipment? Electronics? Telephones? Cabling? Construction materials?

There's also the fact that retooling for civilian production from military production is a lot cheaper than building the factory and machinery in the first place, allowing producers of trucks tanks and planes go to civilian production with relative ease.

The very computer you are using to shit post right now is thanks to ww2. Deal with it.

>>31355129
>the US was yearning for an entry into the war, due to fear of the soviets going all the way to Spain

An entry into the war against Germany, not against Japan,

There was no guarantee one would lead to the other.

>>31355341
>>31355344

I have a proposition for you gentlemen: If it was in fact so great for technological and economic development, why not do it all again? A great war right now would be HUGELY beneficial going by how much further along we are technologically from WW2. Labor force participation is at an all time low, just like the depression. And like you guys said the war generated all these things, but it had to end eventually. Why don't we double the length this time around and do 10 years instead of five? That should get us double the advance this time, unless we really luck out and it turns out the advance is actually exponential.

>>31349838
US was pretty much the opposite of isolationist in 1941.

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>>31355341
promoting bloody large scale wars as worthwhile from the safety of a Japanese image board, yeah maybe for some politicians and business men not the odd 60 million everyday people who lost there lives because of it, not to mention the life long scars carried by everyone else involved
TL;DR >being this retarded

>>31355430
You mean to increase the government budget for mass production of goods, weapons research, and technological advances, unleashing an organization of economic and intellectual output the likes of which haven't been seen since ww2? I'm down for that. Doesn't even have to be a war. The advances we make based on merely having the massive military/technology budget alone would suffice. Way better spent this way than on welfare.

>>31355919
It was worthwhile because we made massive strides in science, economic power, and technology that otherwise wouldn't have come to fruition in such a short period of time. It was necessary because the Japanese and Germans DECLARED FUCKING WAR ON THE UNITED STATES YOU DENSE FUCKING NIGGER.

>>31356053
>You mean to increase the government budget for mass production of goods, weapons research, and technological advances, unleashing an organization of economic and intellectual output the likes of which haven't been seen since ww2? I'm down for that. Doesn't even have to be a war. The advances we make based on merely having the massive military/technology budget alone would suffice.

So we should become the Soviet Union?

>>31349539
Of course they knew, that is why they took the Main Fleet Ships out, which then they said: "Luckily...."

>>31356188
>why they took the Main Fleet Ships out
What the fuck is "Main Fleet Ship" and why did you capitalize it?

>>31356167
Yes, because if there's any country that most closely compared to America during ww2, it's the Soviet Union. Thanks for letting us know how absolutely retarded you are.

What a silly question, but I'll pop in to this thread anyhow to see what the anons have to say and...

holy shit.

The fuck did I just read?

Wow.

>>31357190
You just read the worldview of people who find no fault with waging aggressive war with a nation because they refuse to sell you oil due to your rampaging in Asia. Apparently the proper thing to do when on the receiving end is just build more escorts ships and hope they forget about the fact that they declared war on you, because they dindu nuffin wrong.

>>31355000
>believing the Works Program brought us out of the depression
keep believing everything they taught you in public school

>>31357233
>You just read the worldview of people who find no fault with waging aggressive war with a nation because they refuse to sell you oil due to your rampaging in Asia. Apparently the proper thing to do when on the receiving end is just build more escorts ships and hope they forget about the fact that they declared war on you, because they dindu nuffin wrong.

>Conflating Germany and Japan and our reasons for going to war with them
>Imblying anyone here said Pearl Harbor was A-OK
>Pretending the US should have been tryig to even get involved in the war in the first place

Keep suckin' the gummint's cock buddy, maybe someday you'll get something in return.

>>31356663
>Yes, because if there's any country that most closely compared to America during ww2, it's the Soviet Union. Thanks for letting us know how absolutely retarded you are.

Well, let's see

>Massive central planning
>suppression of civil liberties
>abridgment of a right to a trial because its wartime
>Mass hysteria and paranoia among populace fueled by propaganda

All the major wartime governments of the period were more similar than different. And besides

>US basically gave the communists all of their industrial capacity which they then turned around against us almost immediately

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>>31349539
>>31349556
>>31349715
>>31349738
>>31349800
>>31349946
>>31350677
>>31350700
>>31350790
see
>>31350821
FUCKING THIS

See, my biggest problem with the whole Pearl Harbor thing - problem being that it is often ignored/left out of discussion - was the fucking carrier groups that the Pearl Harbor attack were absolutely banking on destroying WEREN'T THERE.

They were in fucking Alaska. I don't know if this proves one point or another, either side of the argument, by why is this usually left out of discussion?

That's why the Japanese commanders KNEW the war was already over... They knew they could only hold out for so long (they wrote as much in their god damn diaries)... They missed their targets. Their attack failed. They were doomed.

>>31359187
Yeah, we get it. You're a retard.

>>31359420
That would be relevant if modern carrier tactics weren't introduced at Pearl fucking Harbor. You tard. Can you show me FDR's crystal ball that revealed carrier strike force tactics to him before the navy even adopted them? Get fucked.

>>31359187
No, they weren't. For one, all the shit you mention wasn't nearly as bad as in all the commie/axis nations. I don't think you fully comprehend the lengths the Soviet Union went to consolidate power. For one, you didn't have massive purges in leadership here in the US. Or punishment battalions. Or death camps.
>but much Japanese!
Never put in death camps, retard.

Now get fucked.

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>>31350888

>hey its roger posting from my thinkpad edge e530c

holy shit its you

>>31349539
Pearl harbor no, intel wasn't good enough then. We expected a strike but didn't know exactly when or how bad. I think they expected it in the Philippines.

Gulf of tonkin, yes, absolutely.

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>>31350888
>when his wife asked him what he was doing he said the only thing a real american military man can ever say. "MY JOB"

Stopped reading right there. Nice digits though

>>31358810
It wasn't just public school, Cletus. I know the deep south doesn't have many down there, so I understand if your inbred mother got some stuff wrong when she was teaching you. Also, I didn't say it did. I said it helped.

>Being so cucked to muh free market to not realize that mixed economies are the best

>>31351109
>>31351175
>What difference does it make?
>a lot, Hillary
What a great conversation.

>>31360511
It is a pretty convenient coincidence that the carriers weren't there. It is not out of the realm of possibility that certain people conditioned Japanese intelligence agents to inform their government that our carriers would be there and then moved them when they had reason to believe that an attack 'might' be underway. It allowed our side to have a cause to rally behind, gave us the Just War philosophy to wave around and it gave us a good excuse to help out our allies while simultaneously kick starting the slowly recovering economy. In addition they would not have had to orchestrate any kind of false flag attack if there was already a legitimate attack.
I'm not saying they let it happen but it was sure as hell convenient in many ways.

>>31360659
But it didn't. Mixed markets destroy our way of life. The only reason we did so well over the last century was for. The.remnants of our once free market dying off. If you're not positively free/capitalist you're planned /communist especially with a centrally planned currency.

>>31360667
It's not out of the realm of possibility for space aliens to be behind pearl harbor, but "realm of possibility" is basically a roundabout way of saying "talking out my ass." Again, your crackpot theory doesn't account for the fact that carrier strike force tactics were pioneered by the Japanese, so why the fuck would they focus on carriers and not BB's? For that matter, if we had magical brainwashing tools, why not condition the Japanese to stop their war with China? Certainly would have saved us all some time. Why not just happen to have the entire fucking fleet away from pearl? A bunch of Japanese planes attacking, whether or not a fleet is present, is still casus belli.

Try thinking for a change, you triple nigger.

>>31360691
>I just learned what Austrian economics is, but am not smart enough to defend it intellectually
>the post

Again, ww2 ushered in an Era of massive scientific and technological progress, as well as economic prosperity. This is not something you have shown yourself smart enough to address. You literally can't prove me wrong because the technology developed and the economic boom are a matter of fact.

Jet engines, computers, synthetics, radar, rocketry, jet engines, and nuclear science are just a few of the many fields that saw massive advancement during ww2.

As for the economy, here's a link with the inflation adjusted gdp. Notice how from 1929 to 1939 the gdp increased by a mere 100 billion, or about 10%. Then notice that from 1939 to 1949, gdp doubled. From 1949 to 1959, it increased by another trillion.
http://www.multpl.com/us-gdp-inflation-adjusted/table

Now fuck off and throw away your Mises books.

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10KB, 251x249px

The u.s needed a reason to enter the war and make sure the people would absolutely support it.
So they moved the carriers out, started building new ships in advance on both coasts and let the japs attack.
Personnel is not a problem once the population wants the war. People signed up in droves because "muh revenge" and "muh country".

>>31360699
How is it high science alium magic to let some nips observe and take pictures of the carriers and send them back to Japan and say "HERR ARR DERR CARRIERRS" and then move them when some cunt in the Philippines sees a couple Jap ships heading out this way?
It doesn't take a genius to understand that dropping bombs from planes out of carriers is less risky in the long run than getting your battleships close enough to hit the enemy homeland even if nobody had ever done it before. I doubt that carrier strike force tactics was something nobody in the US had ever considered or prepared for.
I'm saying it was plausible and you're being a cunt.

>>31360805
>>31360667
>>31359420
Well first off, the Kido Butai took a path that avoided shipping lanes in the northern part of the Pacific. So I don't think that some cunt in the Philippines would be able to spot them coming because they never even came close to the Philippines.

Secondly, the carriers weren't in fucking Alaska. 4 Carriers were stationed in the Atlantic and 3 in the Pacific. And of those 3, only TWO carriers were attached to Pearl Harbor, the Enterprise and Lexington. And they were both ferrying aircraft to Midway and Wake Island. Enterprise literally sailed into Pearl Harbor hours after the attack too.

And say that the Kido Butai did get the carriers that were supposed to be at Pearl Harbor. So the fuck what? The US still has 5 other carriers at their disposal.

>>31360805
It did take a genius to figure it out, you dipshit. Carrier strike tactics were introduced by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor. They won't know a tactic that's never been tried or thought up before it's executed, which is exactly what happened at Pearl Harbor.

Furthermore, if the US could bait and switch the japs with carriers, why not do it with the whole fleet and catch them red handed? It makes absolutely no sense to let any ships go down, let alone all our pacific BB's, as an attack of that scale, no matter how successful it is, would constitute casus belli and instantly turn public opinion in favor of war.

Your argument relies entirely on hindsight and makes wild assumptions that make no logical sense. Please kill yourself now.

>>31361071
It DOES make sense though.
The more devastating the attack the better. FDR wanted a public outcry to manipulate the simple folk into signing up.

>>31361170
No, it doesn't. Sacrificing that much of your naval war potential for propaganda is absolute madness when the navy is pivotal to defeating Japan.

Losing that much is more likely to demoralize than mobilize. You are this fucking retarded.

Also, if naval planners had a choice, they'd have saved battleships, not carriers. That's because conventional naval doctrine at the time centered around battleships, not carriers.

There's so many holes in this """logic""" you bullshitting quadruple nigger. Fucking kill yourself.

>>31361362
>implying the navy didn't already know that carriers are best why else would they have so many?
>implying new ships weren't already being built
>implying losing a couple ships/people matters considering the powerhouse that the united states is
>implying having the support of the people wasn't the most important goal since america had everything else already
You can only wage an effective war if your population supports it. That is why so many countries fake their casus belli to get the people on their side.
You are just a literal retard who, even years later, still buys into this propaganda 101 move by FDR-

>>31361393
They had so many due to the Washington naval treaty limiting the number of battleships they could have.

New ships were always being built. That doesn't indicate anything about the continued service life of the older ships since the USS Texas was a dreadnought Era ship that saw service until Vietnam. Plus, considering that they were about to be thrust into a war with Japan, had they not lost the BB's, they would not have been decommissioned.

Losing capital ships DOES matter, you retard. Thanks to not having those ships, the US lost its foothold on the Philippines and Guam. Once again, you're arguing from the standpoint of hindsight.

Gaining the support of the people could be accomplished by an attack that didn't cripple the Pacific fleet. There's false flag, then there's absolute retardation. You're straddling retardation like a 4/10 Vegas hooker. You don't cripple your own fighting capability for propaganda points. No leader is as stupid as you. If they want false flag, they'll take a Japanese attack on some outpost in the Philippines or a small destroyer task force off Singapore. That's just as effective and wouldn't cripple the whole fucking fleet.

Please kill yourself now. At least, castrate yourself so your genes don't continue.

>>31361170
yes..yes.. i want to start a war by allowing my enemy a devastating attack on my primary means of taking the fight to them, while giving the enemy the strategic and tactical advantage. its all going as planed.....

>>31361459
>That's just as effective
But it isn't. American anti-war sentiment was quite high during that time.
Do you really think losing a shitty destroyer would have been enough for something like "This day will live in infamy!" and rile everyone up? Of course not.
It needed something big to signal to the retarded masses (such as yourself) that it is time to take up arms and be a patriot.
An event much like 9/11, so grand that retards everywhere flock to the armed forces.

>>31355352

Japan and Germany were allied at the time.

>>31353583
>Germany bombs London

>England bombs German cities.

Germans - wahhhh why you bomb civilians. Luftwaffe dindu nuffin!

>Germany murders it's way across Europe.

> The allies take the glove off

Germany - "why you treat us so bad?"