Do you think torture is an effective weapon against an insurgency?

Sort of but you have to do it right.
Right now the jihadis innadesert use pretty much everything we do as propaganda against us. A few civilians die as collateral damage taking out a base full of rapists and tortures that are populated with civilians on purpose? The evil capitalist infadels are murderous fiends that will eradicate you all! Trust is Isis!
You have to make it clear that you only fuck up the bad guys, but when you do it's terrible.

>>31180186
Thanks. Good input

With the hearts-and-minds nature of such, it can be extremely effective.

As long as it's your enemy that does it.

>>31180170
If Iraq or Afghanistan is any indication. Absolutely not.

>>31180170
Arbitrary torture on everyone?
No, if anything it'll polarise the entire area against you and then you'll have randoms that wouldn't bother anyone taking up arms to remove you. The best weapon against insurgency is to kick their support mechanism from out underneath them- civilian support. When they don't have a pot to piss in, no food and nowhere to hide even the more hardcore ones will die out.

>>31180170
No, the opposite, in fact. It makes the populace hate you more and more likely to join with the insurgency.

Like what happened in Iraq after the Abu Ghraib and Waterboarding stuff leaked.

>>31180170
>Do you think torture is an effective weapon against an insurgency?
Provided that you can convince them to use it, yes.

It sucks for getting information because people just say whatever they think you want. You don't torture the truth out of people, you just eventually get a story that you don't disbelieve and throw them in a cell because of it.

>>31180170
No. Time and again, intelligence collected through torture has proven less than useful. It only damages the US's reputation for no actionable gain.

>>31180170
>Do you think torture is an effective weapon against an insurgency?
It can be an effective weapon for counter insurgency.

Death is a better weapon against insurgency because it keeps people in line and does less to build malice.
Ex: Singapore

>>31180170
Thank God covering someone in pig's blood before you execute them isn't torture.

>>31180170
Not if you leave witnesses

I saw a documentary called Unthinkable it basically works you dumb faggots.

>>31180423
Stop being an edgy retard.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/05/interrogation-experts-from-every-branch-of-the-military-and-intelligence-agree-torture-doesnt-produce-useful-information.html

>>31180405
/thread

It's an effective way to get my dick hard

No. The current law of war is great because it outlaws that.
Which in turn makes people more likely to surrender. Since pows are treated so well.
So less people and time wasted on killing them

If you were to torture someone how would you do it?

>>31180436
Then why has it been done since the beginning of time? Unthinkable 1, you 0. Grow up sheep.

>>31180459
Slow degolving with a sharp razor, cauterizing as i go so they don't bleed out. When they heal I can do it again!

>>31180392
What is the alternative?


>Catch and release
literally self defeating.
>Killing them
Bit pointless to kill a captive, it should have been done earlier if they are just to be killed.
>Try to recruit them
retarded.
>ask them for information
because then they wont deliberately get captured and provide misinformation...
>try to Stockholm them
because then they wont deliberately get captured and provide misinformation...
>try to reason with them that arab faggots can't into navies and won't be able to save them and that if they complied they could have a standard of living better than before they were captured
they believe their mortal life is passing/meaningless and its their duty to lie and kill wherever and whenever possible to advance sharia

Torture can provide false results, but we know that going in. It's the best option available at the moment.

>>31180459
Shoot them with a .22 in each of there fingers and toes and work from there.
>they used to do this in Jordan (I believe), but it was more a time saving measure and it wasn't a .22

>>31180459
Tie them to a chair and make them watch meatspin until they are gay.

>>31180470
lots of things have been used for a long time and still don't work

It doesn't work. It doesn't produce accurate, actionable intel. It poisons relations with the people you are occupying. It serves as a ready recruiting tool for your opponent.

>>31180535
>It serves as a ready recruiting tool for your opponent.
So don't let captives go...

>>31180553
>murdering suspected insurgents
>not alienating the occupied population

>>31180482
Except everyone who actually understands interrogation knows that small gestures, efforts to treat them well, and most importantly, provide leniency and protection for their families will get them to spill the truth, while torture only creates new enemies.

I had a shady family friend that was 'in' with the soviets and I once asked him about torture. He said, "Torture, it no work. They tell you just what you want to make you stop. You never get the full truth"

>>31180459
Get them to spend time with my mother-in-law..

>>31180583
Hey I was wondering when someone would post something that didn't happen

>>31180535
>As the senior interrogator in Iraq for a task force charged with hunting down Abu Musab Al Zarqawi, the former Al Qaida leader and mass murderer, I listened time and time again to captured foreign fighters cite the torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo as their main reason for coming to Iraq to fight. Consider that 90 percent of the suicide bombers in Iraq are these foreign fighters and you can easily conclude that we have lost hundreds, if not thousands, of American lives because of our policy of torture and abuse. But that’s only the past.

>Somewhere in the world there are other young Muslims who have joined Al Qaida because we tortured and abused prisoners. These men will certainly carry out future attacks against Americans, either in Iraq, Afghanistan, or possibly even here. And that’s not to mention numerous other Muslims who support Al Qaida, either financially or in other ways, because they are outraged that the United States tortured and abused Muslim prisoners.

>In addition, torture and abuse has made us less safe because detainees are less likely to cooperate during interrogations if they don’t trust us. I know from having conducted hundreds of interrogations of high ranking Al Qaida members and supervising more than one thousand, that when a captured Al Qaida member sees us live up to our stated principles they are more willing to negotiate and cooperate with us. When we torture or abuse them, it hardens their resolve and reaffirms why they picked up arms.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/05/interrogation-experts-from-every-branch-of-the-military-and-intelligence-agree-torture-doesnt-produce-useful-information.html

>>31180170
For what purpose? If you're trying to gain intel and you know fo sho it's a terrirost, and not just some random sandslime then yeah I guess
If you're trying to ween out insurgents with torture, all you will do is create more insurgents, its all about hearts and minds, why would they help a foreign power that comes to their land, drags their people off and brutalises them?

>>31180565
>>31180609

>implying the population isn't coerced into supporting the insurgents

COIN isn't a black and white subject.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1057610X.2013.784611#.Vu8x0RorK9Y

>>31180616
>its all about hearts and minds


>Researchers have already delved into the foundations of some of the myths surrounding the British COIN past and attempted to create a more genuine and balanced image of its history. D. Hazel’s paper on the development of British COIN doctrine since 2001 gives an ambiguous view of the position that the mythical images of British COIN have in its official handbooks as well as in the psyche of modern soldiers. Hazel explains that, “Despite popular belief that the British are all about ’hearts and minds’ and the use of minimum force (and there is some truth in that) neither of these actually feature as British COIN principles”

http://www.e-ir.info/2015/10/11/beyond-thompson-and-malaya-the-search-for-a-usable-counterinsurgency-past/

>>31180637
Still doesn't justify a counterproductive act like torture.

>>31180553
Yeah and how thats been working out is people turn in business compeditors, the boyfriend of the girl they want, people that owe them money, people that they owe money to, etc. Then these people dissapear for years having never done anything. They miss their kids growing up, they miss their wifes child bearing years. They are treated like a prisoner. Then when they are retuned IF they are returned. The first thing they do is join the other side for some payback. Wouldn't you?

>>31180553
>hey muhammad has been missing for quite some time now hasnt he
>yes, ever since those soldiers visited him
>coincidence maybe?
You must be retarded if you think people cant figure that shit out.

There was this one case in germany, where a kidnapper was captured but the location of the abducted person wasnt known.
Some policeman threatened the kidnapper with torture and went on trial for that.
I think that torture would actually work in this situation, since you know what/who your looking for.
Even if he gave you the wrong coordinates, you'd always have people on backup that can check out every other place he names.

>>31180459
Cuddle with them every night and whisper sweet nothings in their ear and not have sex with them because you're saving yourself for marriage and then fuck their best friend.

>>31180825
shit, anon, did this happen to u

that is torture indeed

>>31180800
No, it's ineffective. Even then.

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>>31180686
You can cite different conflicts back and fourth about how this isn't as effective as that.

The real question is what constitutes torture, what crosses the line from interrogation? Is it roughing up the subject with some threats or water boarding him? That is an ethical discussion that can go on for days.

Some people would consider solitary confinement a form of torture, while others would justify it as a method that prevents prisoners collaborating on a story.

Hypothetical situation. Lets say we go with the "hearts and minds" approach, a POI is interviewed at his home and asked some questions about the local band of insurgents. To incentivize him you throw some cash or goods his way. Maybe you offer to fix up his tractor that has been busted for years

He tells you where a bomb maker lives or where a camp is. What happens if the information he gives you is bs, and now the POI goes off and tells his friends that he got something for telling the COIN force false information. That one POI has spoiled the entire well of information in the area.

Or worse yet, he fades into black and because he already hates the occupying army and gives food to the insurgents while the force isn't patrolling. Because he hates the imperialists' guts and there is no way you can change his mind. It doesn't help that his cousin was a known insurgent and the unit in the next valley killed him in a fire fight.

Or maybe the insurgents told him if he gives false information the'll stop harassing his daughter when she is in the fields.

Would you take him in and ask why you wasted your time going into a shack with nothing in it or days patrolling a inactive area? How would you handle that?

Torture isn't the sole motivation for joining an insurgent cause, it can be a very good one, but there are a multitude of factors that convince people to support an insurgency. Depending on your definition of what torture is, it can be a tool.

>>31180825
That is torture.

>>31180459
Any food they receive is laced with laxatives until they talk or die.

>>31180170
I think I remember this picture was two soldiers goofing around with some native civ that was their friend and the press took it and assumed these guys were torturing that guy when they were swinging him over the fire in some jackass horsing around and made a whole shit storm of ebil whites torturing noble bleck man

We had a local ANP guy named Commander Aziz who had a reputation of doing horrible shit to prisoners. Skinning them alive and feeding them to dogs kind of shit. Whenever we captured bad dudes we could only interrogate them until we turned them over to the ANA. We would always open up with the threat that if they didn't tell us what they knew we'd turn them over to commander Aziz. Lot of them talked. Some of them begged us to kill them. Pretty sad shit.

I'd say torture is a mixed bag. Having some local that's willing to butcher bad dudes is really the best of both worlds.

>>31180423
That was a fictional movie you fool.

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>>31180930
Jesus, he must have been popular among his peers.

>>31180609
what a fucking load of bullshit

I'm sure foreign fighters are all flocking to fight because of some stupid pictures of a naked jihadi in a jail

>>31180984
>ALL THESE EXPERTS DISAGREE WITH MY FEE-FEES, THEY MUST BE WRONG!

>>31181000
does that claim that people are going to fight in the middle east because they saw some pictures of a jihadi naked in a jail, hes not even being tortured

makes a lot of sense that a military dude would see which way the wind blows on public perception of torture and writes a book affirming those beliefs

$$$$$

>>31180972
Regular ANA dudes weren't much better on some of the outlying COPs. Prisoners would pretty routinely get stripped naked, tied to a chair, and have the shit beat out of them. Ripping their beards out seemed to be one of the more popular things to do. One time in January they just tossed one of the prisoners naked into an empty connex. Guy froze overnight.

I doubt that kind of stuff is typical but Paktika was kind of wild sometimes.

>>31180170
Is Afghanistan still Soviet? Is Jeruselum still Roman?

Torture is propaganda ammo for the other guys.

>>31180482
Recruitment of terrorists actually wasa hige strength and force multiplier for the Rhodesians

>>31181000
>THESE EXPERTS BACK UP MY POINT OF VIEW AND ARE INFALLIBLE, NO NEED FOR DISSENT OR DISCUSSION

>>31181027
Were the ANA in the area actually semi competent or was that still the days of them not knowing jack shit?

>>31180580
This. British got a ton of useful info out of putting German officer POWs and recording everything via hidden microphones. It was like a Nazi big brother, drama included but the intel was golden... Until the public found out pows got it so good, and shut that shit down.

>>31181027
Tillman? Munoz?

>>31180190
Do you think it would be effective to spread propaganda to the local population claiming the insurgents have little to no remorse torturing even the local population if it can gain their cause, therefore you should stop aiding them, and instead report their activities!

>>31181079
Margah and Boris

>>31180518
just force them to watch countless trap threads on /b/ and /gif/ until they know nothing else but boiipuccis and they are now gay

>>31180459
Make them browse /k/

I am a firm believer in just killing every single enemy combatant. No quarter.

>>31180984
It's an excuse for what they desire to do anyway, much like riots pver police shootings. Still, it has that confirmation effect. It doesn't really matter if that was the only reason if that asshole is still an insurgent, but it does matter if you're going up against 2,000 insurgents or 3,000. Psychology vs sociology.

>>31181083
The Koevoet did a bit of that in Namibia, the problem was that some villages were actually being held hostage by the insurgents so the propaganda was more of a reminder than anything. Some people gave information while others were afraid if they even breathed near a Koevoet truck they risked the wellbeing of their family.

>>31181087
Of course boris. Makes sense!

>>31181064
Some companies in our local kandak were pretty good others were kind of shit. They don't have a lot of pressure on them to conduct their own operations so they tended to just sit around a lot and let our commanders steer the ship. When we fell in on them they had been doing mission sets that involved setting up a TCP in the middle of fucking nowhere and drinking tea/smoking hash. We changed that up quite a bit and they proved to be decent after a bit.

>>31180861
I honestly doubt that.
You arent looking for vague answers, like troop size, tactics, supply routes, etc
You know that the perpetrator knows where the victim is and you can confirm very fast wether or not the answer is true.
It would not be a moral thing to do, but i dont see why it wouldnt be effective in this case.

>>31181133
Huh, you always hear about the bad with the ANA but never the kinda good. Interesting.

>>31181115
Were you a guest out there?

Yes t. Konrad Curze

>>31181179
At munoz and tillman. I just remember all the interesting stuff on the Mirc coming out of boris

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>>31181166
I mean don't get me wrong they're not good soldiers by western standards in any way. However when you consider that most of these dudes can hardly read or write and have basically zero training they do okay.

To give you an idea we'd share a TOC with some of the Afghans and one dude would come in for his shift and spend the whole time writing in a children's book like pic related trying to figure out how to write down words. By the end of our time there he was able to sound out a bunch of the names of the countries on a world map we had posted up. That dude is never going to be some operator in the western sense but he will know how to use an AK, keep his spacing, and scan his sector.

>>31180637
Put up or shut up

>>31180930
>We had a local ANP guy named Commander Aziz who had a reputation of doing horrible shit to prisoners. Skinning them alive and feeding them to dogs kind of shit. Whenever we captured bad dudes we could only interrogate them until we turned them over to the ANA. We would always open up with the threat that if they didn't tell us what they knew we'd turn them over to commander Aziz. Lot of them talked. Some of them begged us to kill them. Pretty sad shit.
>I'd say torture is a mixed bag. Having some local that's willing to butcher bad dudes is really the best of both worlds.

In layman's terms, the threat of torture is more effective than the act itself. So firsthand info from the torturer is generally useless but telling them if they don't comply they will have them taken to the torturer and the next guy can tell them the truth?

So technically it does work. Fear keeps people in line.

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>>31181300
I only went to Tillman once. Walking up to the OPs was fun. Nice layout once you got up there though. Don't know if you guys ever used the burn barrels up there but we sure as fuck did.

>>31181382
"Someone" nailed a cow with a tpt round and we used a little half of a burn barrel as a bbq. The cow was fine until the ASG on the hill with us decided to practice their beheading skills. Fun times.

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Room 101

>>31181050
Citation please (genuine interest)

>>31181862
Not him, but this is the only link I have on hand.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0959231042000322567?journalCode=fswi20

Its a start, look at anything on the Rhodesian African Rifles and Selous Scouts.

>>31181340
The threat is only more powerful than the torture itself if they KNOW, without a doubt, that you'll do it.

If they think you'll pussy out or you're bluffing, it doesn't work.

That's exactly why ISIS releases those "execution" videos. It's to show the people they're trying to conquer what will happen if they resist.

>>31181143
And you assume that there are no repercussions for someone talking. These people have families. If a guy gets captured them all of a sudden the enemy has good intel, what do you think would happen to him and his family.

>>31180459
The white room

>>31182224
With black curtains?

>>31182558
Black-roof country, no gold pavements, tired starlings.