The Krag rifle in WWI

Othias is probably right. Springfeild National Armory and the post-war commission were unable to provide samples of Krag rifles deployed to the war outside of those that had gone to the UK, and there's no evidence any new .30-40 Rounds were procured for the ADF, which was abnormal as the Army had already relocated .30-40 to obsolescence some time earlier and had been producing .30-03 and after. .30-06 for enough time that there would not have been a need for it.

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>>31168148
The US Army was still buying .30-40 ammunition from Remington-UMC through 1918. Othais has less specific circumstantial evidence than I do. We know that several of the 12th-17th Engineers deployed to Britain with Krags and 80 rounds of .30-40 Krag each. I'm specifically looking for evidence of what happened to those Krags between the engineers landing at the end of August 1917 and when we know they were all issues Springfields in November.

From Mallory's *The Krag Rifle Story*:

"Thousands of Krags were taken to France with the Railway Engineer troops.A listing of the numberof M1903 rifles shipped to Railway Engineer units in the AEF in Nov.1917 to replace their Krag rifles gives some indication of the number of Krags in France.The total for the 10th,15th,16th,17th,18th,and 19th Engineers was 7,597 rifles."

>>31168148
Also,

"The vast majority remained stateside for training purposes, although some 2,000 Model 1898 Krag rifles were taken to France during the war by the 10th-19th Engineers (Railway). There is no evidence that any were used by front-line combat units."

--"U.S. Krag-Jorgensen: The Foreign Rifle" by Bruce Canfield, American Rifleman, Monday, October 11, 2010. ( https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2010/10/11/us-krag-jorgensen-the-foreign-rifle/ )

Othais wants "hard evidence", though -- like a photograph or a document from the Army demonstrating beyond a doubt the Krag was in France.

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Huzzah!

Col. John A. Laird, History of the Twelfth Engineers, U.S. Army. 1919.

( https://archive.org/stream/cu31924027818099#page/n38/mode/1up )

p. 115: [In April/May 1918] "The Springfield rifles, which had been issued when the Krag-Jorgensons were taken up after the Battle of Cambrai, were now exchanged for the standard British Lee-Enfield rifle in order to obviate any difficulty in ammunition supply should the regiment be ordered into the British front line."

Col. Laird, btw, was the regimental historian of the 12th Engineers (http://collections.mohistory.org/resource/230685.html) appointed to this position in the spring of 1918.

So there you go! The venerable Krag was at the Battle of Cambrai!

Now Othais HAS to make a video about the Krag as part of their WWI arms series.

History of the Sixteenth engineers (Railway) American expeditionary forces 1917-1919. Compiled by the 16th Engineers Veterans Association. 1939.

( https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015014113370;view=1up;seq=102;size=75 )

p.74-75: "The men mentioned in the above order arrived at Is-sur-Tille late in March, 1918, and were assigned to the various companies of the 16th before the Regiment left for the British Front. ... At this period at Is-sur-Tille, there were many rumors throughout the Base of impending changes with a special bearing on the Regiment, which was "going to the Front Line." The 16th were issued gas masks, and the Krag-Jorgensons, issued at Detrout, were called in and new rifles issued. This was the specially-chambered Springfield rifle, which would take the interchangeable ammunition issued to the British and Canadian forces."

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>>31168131
There is a great thread about this over on USMF.

>Newspaper front page from December 2nd, 1917 showing the headline in reference to the first battle action of the AEF

>>31168131
>>31168983
Cambrai, November 1917

The 11th and 12th Engineers had been working overtime to move supplies to the front, an unusual amount of supplies. It became apparent that something big was in the works, and it was happening in their neighborhood. Since the men came to France about two months ago they had gotten somewhat used to the shelling, and gas alarms. It was a lot different from what some of them had probably expected though. For men who had spent their adult lives working on and around 4-6-2's to moguls and larger, the trains they were about to find in France appeared to mere toys. Some of the men assigned to the narrow gauge railways were not happy with what they found, but by the time the war was over all that was forgotten and they were proud of their little trains. But now, in November of 1917 both regiments were engaged in construction, operation, and maintenance of the rail lines in their districts. The 11th was busily helping to move MkV tanks in preparation for a grand offensive, the most ambitious in months. While the 12th hauled ammunition, both small arms (SAA) and shells for the artillery batteries nearby. The guns would use the shells to provide a walking barrage ahead of the British Infantry and Cavalry which would drive the Germans (or rather what was left, in theory) from their trenches all the way back to the city of Cambrai. The 14th had been assigned to the 3rd Army (British) and was engaged in salvage work in addition to normal duties.

Copy and paste from USMF.

>>31169057
The plan appeared to be fairly straightforward, at least the Engineers' parts in it. After the enemy was pulverized by the barrages, and driven from their trenches, the Engineers would race out and start immediate work in what had only hours before been no-mans land, and even land behind the German positions. The 12th was to build and extend light railway lines as quickly as possible as the entire frontlines were expected to shift well forward towards Cambrai city. The 11th was detailed to race out and repair as much of the main rail line (which had run right into Cambrai before the war) and then extend what had been destroyed or made unusable. Adding to this, the units both had companies performing their daily operations behind the current trenches. 'D-Day' was set for November 20th.
"At 6:20 A.M., the zero hour, every battery from Fins to Vermand opened fire -- the battle was on." - 12th Engineers History.
The artillery barrages were tremendous, but nothing like that which was to rain down on the British in this same sector come next March. At this point in the plan, the Germans would be saturated by artillery which would help to disorient the defenders.
"Some five hundred tanks preceded the first infantry waves, rolling down the barbed wire and neutralizing the advance enemy machine gun posts. In an incredibly short time the famous Hindenburg Line was broken on a twenty mile front and to a depth of nearly six miles. 10,000 prisoners constituted the first day's haul" - 12th Engineers History.

>>31169067
By all appearances things were going surprisingly well, almost perfectly. On the 29th General Byng sent a note of thanks for the vital work which had been done by the Engineers. The 12th was working with the Canadian Railway Troops in the vicinity of Marcoing, while the 11th was working with other 4th CRT men near Gouzeacourt. All seemed good, until the morning of the 30th when the shells started falling on them; the Germans were counter-attacking and retaking their lost territory. The speed and suddenness at which the Germans attacked was all too quick for the men who had thought the front miles away from them now. The Canadians had told the officers of the 11th that it was not necessary to carry their rifles, and on this day the working party had left their rifles safely in camp when they left at about 7 AM. They had enough tools to carry along anyway. Picks, shovels, and other implements necessary for grading were all that was on hand. Still, even at this point they did not know how the battle had turned against their British allies. Shelling was common, and it did not raise any suspicions, in any event it was light and appeared to be sporadic. It probably wouldn't be long before the British counter batteries pin-pointed the German emplacements and silenced the guns for a while. 20 minutes later the iron rations began to increase, but the men continued working, it was after-all a war, and shelling was to be expected by now. The Germans were shelling a ridge nearby and some shells were going a little further than intended. Moments later a few gas shells burst within 200 yards of the men. By what seemed like providence the gas was blown downwind of the men and none were caught off-guard by it.

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>>31169077
"But these shells were only stray ones from a barrage that was rapidly gaining in intensity along the top of the ridge to the east and which in a few minutes was lifted and moved closer to the work. For the moment no one realized what it was but soon Major Burbank saw that it was more than spasmodic shelling and ordered a general retirement. Capt. Hulsart ordered his men onto the work train and Lt. McLoud ordered his into the field west of the railroad. Before the train could get underway it was disabled and all the men had to seek shelter as best they could. By this time the barrage was upon them and many men after attempting to retire too refuge in whatever shelter was available." - 11th Engineers History.
Meanwhile, not far away.. men from the 12th Engineers working party came under fire from this artillery barrage as it was walked across the land; back towards the British lines. They jumped into whatever cover they could find, much like their comrades in the 11th. Shell craters were plentiful, and despite the risk of gas exposure by jumping into a shell hole without looking first, it beat getting blown up.
Some of the men from the 11th Engr's work party managed to make their way back, both in the moments before the barrage was onto them, and before it got bad. Many of the men were hunkered down as close to the earth as they could get; trapped by deadly shelling. Another small group of men from the 11th were wounded by a shell and made their way to a British CCS (Casualty Clearing Station) for treatment. A Sgt had been wounded and they loaded him into an ambulance, shortly afterward a German plane came along and strafed the ambulance wounding him yet again. When the shelling lifted the men back at the work site cautiously rose make a quick exit for the rear, only to be met by the last of the fleeing British Infantry as they raced past. The lines had collapsed. Things were going from very bad, to very worse.

>>31169085
"Meanwhile the barrage around the station had lifted and the men in the shelters there came out to make a mad dash for the village only to find themselves either in the last line of the retreating British or already surrounded by Germans armed with everything, even to flame-throwers. Those who found themselves among the retreating British joined with them either taking rifles from fallen men or using the picks or shovels they they still had by them. Some of them fell mortally wounded." - 11th Engineers History.
Everywhere around them there was fighting, or flight; often both. Men fought to live, others fought in a hopeless situation to the death; some fought on in the hopes of sparing others the fate which seemed almost all but certain, fighting for time, which was a battle that was as lost as the great offensive now appeared to be. Wounded and dead infantry all around, artillerymen who had been valiant in their efforts to save their guns to fight another day, all were fighting or fleeing for their lives. Miles away in the 11th's camps were the M1903 Springfields they were told they wouldn't need. Bloody and broken enfields were all that they could find, and in some cases there weren't any within reach of men who desperately swung their tools as though they were fighting with swords and halbirds of centuries ago. Men were being killed, men were being captured; not just Britons but Americans too as they fought side by side.

>>31169091
"One six-horse hitch was blown to bits trying to get their gun away, while a nearby 18-pound battery made an heroic stand while the rest of the guns were saved. One of the captured men describes this phase of the fight as follows: The scenes which I witnessed while being searched and for the next few minutes were well worth seeing. If anyone who ever said that the British were 'yellow' could have seen them that day he would have changed his mind. A ragged skirmish line retreating before the oncoming German hordes. In the face of almost certain death they halted at every fifty yards or so, wheeled about, and fired a volley at the German front ranks. The Germans also knelt and returned fire, then the British retreated again to repeat the same performance at the end of a short run. But they had no chance. They had no reinforcements, their artillery did not know the range and was firing wide, the German barrage was always just in advance of them, and machine guns, strapped to one German's back and operated by another, had a deadly effect upon them. There were twenty or thirty airplanes marked with the black cross flying over head. These swooped down to within one hundred and fifty feet of the ground and poured a deadly hail of lead onto their ranks. Three British observation balloons came down in flames. I saw one man jump without a parachute." - 11th Engineers History.
By noon the situation was rapidly deteriorating. What had been confidence in victory only 24 hours before had been replaced by serious doubt that they would hold any of the land for which the offensive had now paid dearly for. Whole units were wiped down to only dozens of men by the German advance.

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>>31168131
Have something fresh off the mememachine

>>31169098
"Orders were received at Regimental Headquarters and at the Tincourt Camp to "stand to" under arms and be ready to move into the Line on a moment's notice. Armed patrols were furnished from Tincourt for reconnaissance duty on the ridges west of Villers Faucon. Arrangements were made and orders prepared for the immediate reinforcement of the British line wherever needed." - 12th Engineers History.

Some of the 11th men who had been closer to the pre-offensive lines, and thus made it back to their camp during the barrage which had continued rolling westward. There they were ordered to grab their rifles and ammunition and fall back to a safer position. Most of the 11th had no idea what was happening, and a telephone call by one of the officers who ordered the rifles issued caused alarm among those further from the line. Companies A,C,D, HQ, and part of company E were ordered to take arms and assemble in equipment if it became necessary to fight as infantry. Orders were issued to prepare to destroy supplies to deny them to the enemy.
Lt. McLoud tried to round up men who had become lost in the unfamiliar countryside during the barrage. He took charge of as many 11th men as he could find. along with several British and Canadians, and fell back. McLoud's men reached a group of infantry who had prepared to make a stand and spent the night with them. Meanwhile the rest of the 11th men were ordered to dig trenches as a desperate bid to hold their ground seemed likely. Most of the 11th men caught by the barrage eluded capture by lying low until nightfall. Some hid in shell holes, others on the railroad embankment; wherever they could. A German search party found one group in the dark, but knowing German the American replied that they were wounded Germans and the party left them alone and moved on. In small groups they managed to make it back to the British lines. The 11th lost 6 men killed in action, 13 men wounded, and 11 men captured by the Germans

>>31169181
The 12th had not been caught in the German advance for the most part, having been able to fall back to safer positions during the battle that took the lives of 6 of their comrades. One 12th private had been wounded by German machine gun fire while attempting to save his train, which had been caught in the advance. There is no evidence that any of the 11th's M1903s or the 12th's M1892-1898 'Krags' had to fire a shot, although one 12th man did try to bag some 'Dutch' that day and went ahead as far as he could to that end. It's possible someone in one of the patrols fired at something they thought was a German, but no action with the Krag is recorded for the 12th. Like the 11th, most of the men under fire were unarmed. This was the first real battle that units of the AEF participated in.
Although the majority of both the 11th and 12th Engineers experienced the deadly barrage, only a few had been caught without escape and fired on by German infantrymen. Nevertheless, when, once the campaign was officially credited to them, they had their Victory Medals, it was no easy day that earned them the right to be among the less than 3,000 who had the right to wear the 'Cambrai' clasp on their medals. The 'Fighting Engineers' became famous, for they had fought without weapons, using their own engineering tools to defy the Germans who advanced on top of their position. For the 11th and 12th, it was another day at war, and once they rejoined the AEF in early summer 1918 they had experienced war far in excess of what most of the American infantry had. The infantry had not long to wait, but that was their job; with a rifle in hand. The Engineers continued to fight their war, some days were easy compared to November 30th, some were just as bad. But that is enough for tonight. If anyone is interested I will see about continuing this for another installment.

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Bump.

C&Rsenal should do the Krag.

>>31169127
>tfw it went to waste
wew

This is fascinating but I'm not seeing proof of the krag. Looking at the wall of text it says they DID NOT have their rifles when under fire and that those rifles were SPRINGFIELD 1903's

The quote about Cambrai just says 'after cambrai.' You could assume they had Krags in Cambrai... but were they in Cambrai? The US was only there for the very very end of that conflict and I doubt engineers went charging in.

The Remington-UMC orders for 30-40 are interesting but we know the Krag was issued at home to free rifles for over seas.

Maybe find where they were issued as a shore against Mexico and see if that's enough to include them?