France chooses HK

kind of ironic

>>31166978
really thought they would have went with the SCAR

Repose en paix, cher FAMAS. You will be missed by...possibly just me.

So, what are my odds of picking up a surplus G2 parts kit, guys? Less than zero? Jesus, I'd kill for one....

>>31166978
Gut...gut...

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>>31167019
>So, what are my odds of picking up a surplus G2 parts kit, guys?

Zero.

>inb4 buttmad yanks whining about them not choosing M4

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>>31166978
Overpriced AR-15s. My fetish.

All it needs are big titted redheaded Polish girls in knee socks wielding them, and I'll bust a nut.

>>31167041
this might be shocking to you but the M4 is largely made by FN now

>>31167041
Everybody knows the French army had to choose an european rifle.

>>31167032
Thought so. Damn shame, I fucking love the rifle's design. It's got the single simplest operating mechanism I've ever seen on a non-pistol caliber rifle, and some of the nicest ergonomics of any bullpup.

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>>31167041
Dude, who cares where it came from. It's M4 style and is made by HK. What not to love beyond the price tag?

It would have been cool if they went with the Beretta fishgun

>>31166978
RIP in peace FAMAS.

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>Every FAMAS will simply be crushed

>>31167069
muh Piston

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If true not surprised.

French special forces are big users of the 416.

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/british-officials-consider-reprieve-for-sentinel-fleet

>>31167094
Nah, knowing French procurement they'll be dumped in the store rooms and issues to second line units as need be.

>>31167041
The HK416 is based on the AR platform, what is there to be upset about? If anything it's a win because a bullpup got dropped in favor of an AR pattern rifle.

>FAMAS is kill

What a shame.

>>31167067
>nicest ergonomics of any bullpup
That'd be the F2000.

>>31167019
>>31167032
Don't worry, the famas isn't going anywhere for now. They'll probably get rid of the beat to shit ones, but there won't be enough new rifles anytime soon to completely replace every famas in the whole armed forces (navy, air force, gendarmerie, reserve etc...).

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>>31166978
>According to an as of yet uncorroborated report from the French publication RETEX MAG
I'm going to go ahead and call bullshit for now, but I still wouldn't be surprised

>>31167168
Subjective, I guess. I just find the FAMAS's ergo to be incredibly natural. Everything's where you'd expect it to be, chamber's about as open as you're gonna get with a bullpup, sights are amazing, length of pull is comfortable, etc.
It just works really well for me. One of these days I'd love to track down one of those MAS .223 imports for my collection.

>>31166978
So I know they won't sell their surplus FAMAS rifles to civilians, but do you think they'll sell to other countries? I could see some factions in the ME buying them up if possible.

>Took the shitty HK over the glorious SCAR

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>>31167563
They'll give them to ISIS... oops, I mean moderate syrian rebels.

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>>31168281
Another pic of those totally not islamist freedom fighters.
Glad to see my tax money is going the right way.

>>31167051
FN America in America.

>>31166978
Why buy overpriced AR-18s from the fuckin' Krauts? There's nothing stopping the French from making their own, and providing some jobs for their people.

Cucks.

>>31167041
HK416 is just an updated AR18

>>31168870
>Why buy overpriced AR-18s from the fuckin' Krauts?

No french small arms industry left (thx socialists)

HK uses Frog steel

>>31169073
>HK uses Frog steel

I've read this meme in a few blog posts but I doubt it's actually true, probably just hearsay to make ourselves feel a little better (hey guys, it's actually a bit French, it uses French steel).
It's mostly aluminium anyway, what parts are made of steel? Barrel, bolt carrier and bolt, trigger group, and that's it. They probably use the standard US milspec steels for those, namely 4150 for barrel, carpanter 158 for the bolt and 8620 for the bolt carrier.
Pretty sure we don't make those steels in France.

So it's pretty much confirmed they chose the cheapest option

Who gets the old FAMAS? the new FAMAS G2s? And the Felin vcr remote FAMAS?

Foreign Legion? French Naval Troops? French Black colony troops?

You replace the main rifle but not the old ww2 bolt actions with wood both the AMR and the F1?

>>31169001
Not even fucking close you fucking idiot

>>31169255
The army mostly still uses the FAMAS F1, some combat regiments got the FAMAS FELIN, the air force uses the F1 and the navy uses the G2.

FFL is part of the army, so F1 or FELIN, same thing for naval infantry. Black colonial troops don't exist anymore.

The different versions of the FAMAS will be used alongside the new weapon, mostly by second line and reserve troops.

There isn't any WW2 bolt action still in use, unless you are referring to the FRF2 which uses a similar action as ths MAS 36 and is going to get phased out.

Are you on crack?

>>31166978
Was the AR-15 too good for them?

I bet it's a piston AR-15 isn't it?

>>31169001
no ... it's an AR-15 with a short stroke piston nig-rigged into it

>>31169454
Ah. Okay i thought the FRF2 was WW2 age. my bad frog. No not crack. Fine french cheese and wine my friend.

>>31167119
It's not interchangeable with AR-15 parts, definitely not entirely.

HK wanted to be a special snowflake and now Frogs will be stuck buying replacement parts for their stupid proprietary piston AR until they decide to buy another new rifle.

By that time they will probably think DGI AR-15s are garbage too and move on to a SCAR or something.

Terrible news for the AR-15.

>>31166978
Not a single news about it on any of the consistently well informed french defense blog I follow. You might want to hold on a bit before buying HK stocks.

>>31169128
Incorrect. H&K uses their own specifications and sources for material giving them very high quality control. That's what a lot of people who don't get their prices ignore or don't know about.

>>31167041
Hardly, considering it's another European failure getting BTFO by an AR-15 with an AR-18 grafted into it.

>>31166978
famas being replaced by an updated famas.
I don't understand the big deal op

>>31169293
But it is a hybrid of the 15 and 18.
Not the idiot.

Hah, only took them 71 years to return.

>>31167204
http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/68/lid/725

Good luck. I've got $15K set aside to bid on this. Not sure why really other than to own the /k/ memegun.

See you again with the FAMAS 2.0 in about 20 years!

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>>31176305
Dozens of firearms use short stroke pistons, there's no reason say that this is an AR-18 hybrid when the same system is in dozens of other firearms. The 416's gas system doesn't particularly look like an 18's system anyway

>>31166978
>mfw the entire planet is slowly adopting Eugene Stoner's creations

>>31166978
One by one the upstart nations of europe are finally admitting that we had the right idea in the first place.

Germany, you're next.

>>31168297
>FAMAS and FAL
that's one lucky kebab man, I swear

So what prevents the 416 from suffering carrier tilt like other piston ARs?

>>31180590
French lubricating tech:
Beurre Président Demi-Sel

>>31180590
it also has carrier tilt. They beveled the back of the bolt carrier but it didn't solve the inherent issue, just slightly reduced it.

>>31180627
So if so many other piston guns exist, why can't the solve carrier tilt. I understand why it's inherent in a gun wher the piston strikes the top wher the gas key used to be. But why can't it be solved in a ground up design?

>>31181102
Because ground-up piston guns don't have carrier tilt. You can't fix an issue you don't have.

>>31181132
I know they don't. I'm asking why the 416 which is more than simply a piston ar15, has the problem still rather than that problem being redesigned. The sig mcx is fairly similar to the ar15 afaik but the bcg is significantly redesigned to avoid the issue

>>31179426
You do realize that Germany's current service rifle, the G36, is the father of the HK416, yes?

>>31181102
The entire point of the AR-15 was having an inline piston. Adding a short stroke piston on the top of the barrel introduces off axis forces on the bolt carrier that have nowhere to go but down and into the receiver extension.

Either way, the wear is very minimal as militaries shoot far less than people think they do. Not to mention the 416 uses a modified tube and BCG which, while not succeeding at solving the issue, it prevents the gun from being destroyed due to it.

TLDR: Short stroke pistons are a meme. The AR15 is a horrible base for it due to the long BCG and accompanying buffer tube. The MCX is an example of what a "proper" AR15 barrel mounted piston should be.

>>31181245
Also funny to note. If the AR-15 was DI like so many people claim, the forces of the gas would also cause this effect on the receiver extension. Since it's an internal piston the gases can freely enter the bolt's tail which allow expansion in the piston chamber and release through the carrier's gas holes. Since tis occurs inline with the buffer tube we don't see the issues traditional piston guns have.

>>31181273
So if it's not DI, then what sort of system does it have?

>>31181273
It is DI though. The gases infringe directly onto the bolt carrier, they only are vented out of the side.

>>31181664

It's a more sophisticated variaton on DI, in which there is a gas piston inside the bolt carrier, made up of the bolt and bolt carrier, and some piston rings for sealing.

Gas is piped into the bolt carrier, pushes the bolt carrier off the bolt, and then is vented out the side.

It's unique to the AR 10 and 15 style rifles as far as I know.

>>31166978
Will they be supplied with white breach flags?

>>31181245
>>31181102
>>31180627
My small data point in this matter: near the end of Marine ITB my section brought the busted weapons to the main armory. There were more IARs than M16s even though the company had pry 4x more M16s and they got shot more. The IARs were fairly new at the time too.

Mostly cracked bolt lugs for both weapons.

What exactly is the point of the HK 416 being piston driven? What was HK hoping to accomplish by making it piston driven? It still has the lame ass buffer tube so you can't have a folding stock. At least the MCX can have a folding stock and had a proper bolt carrier for a piston system.

>>31183204
cleaner than "DI"

>>31166978
Will they be sticking with the stock quad rail? I heard the Geissler rails are nice.

>>31182484
I've been trying to tell people this for years and nobody fucking listens.

Those guns will look great laying on the ground while the frogs have their hands in the air

>>31179426
>we

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>>31183317

>>31183231
Is it really cleaner enough to increase reliability? I have a MCX and it does run cleaner but it is not a night and day difference. It seems like a lot of the AR-15's failures and stoppages happen in the fire control group. I have also heard that a lot of the grime that builds up in the upper receiver comes when the bolt is unlocked. These circumstances make me think the argument that piston driven AR-15s are more reliable is an over statement.

>>31183411
Piston AR's are nothing more than novelty items intended as "new technology". The original AR15 is perfectly reliable as it is, it doesn't need any of that bullshit. However, being French I can tell you for a fact my countrymen really drink the piston koolaid. I've seen many guys looking to buy an AR in gunshops, and everytime they would ask "is that a piston or DI? Because I want only piston, the newer technology, the best, so clean, so reliable, bla bla bla."
Manufacturers understood this well. Pretty much every AR manufacturer, whether American or European, is now offering a piston AR. It's a trend, nothing more.

The Sig MCX is a different beast altogether, and I would say it's the only piston AR done right.
The military has made a grave mistake by choosing the HK416 over it, but we know it was all political bullshit, bribes and lobbying. They probably didn't really care about any actual characteristics of the guns.

>>31183359
> Waz Kangs

I wonder how the 416 would look like with the FELIN kit mounted.

An MS Paint master should make a shop.

>AR style rifle with bigass optics and a control paddle.

Yay or nay ?

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>>31183204
>What exactly is the point of the HK 416 being piston driven?

People don't understand the purpose and origin of the HK 416 because they don't understand the history and shortcomings of the AR.

Much less was understood about Stoner's gas system at the onset of the GWOT as is known today. As a result, JSOC elements tasked with intense firing schedules and equipped with suppressed short barreled M4 CQBR's were experiencing unacceptable performance issues as well as an unsustainable amount of stress related mechanical failures.

HK was solicited to produce a piston operated M4 variant because it was known at the time to be a proven method of operation for short barreled and suppressed rifles.

Fast forward a decade and the 416 had become choice status symbol among "tier 1" operators. Meanwhile development of the Mk18 alongside the commercial industry had evolved to the point of providing a serviceable carbine to SOCOM negating the need for widespread issue of 416's or the SCAR program that followed it.

As far as the widespread adoption of the 416 throughout Europe and other foreign militaries, that's an entirely different story.

TL;DR: The 416 is only a thing because M4's sucked at the time it was made

>>31178486
If I weren't a poor college student, I'd be bidding on that thing in a heartbeat. Though I'll be honest, I wish there was some civvie version of the FAMAS in the G2 configuration, so I don't have to deal with finding weird 5.56 ammo for that barrel.

>>31181167

Because HK doesn't make mistakes. Their marketing team told the French that and they believed it.

>>31183753
Protip : the "FAMAS can only shoot steel case" meme is not actually true. Standard M193 ball or any 55gr ammo will work fine in a F1

>>31183745
>M4's sucked at the time it was made
still do

>>31183753
Welcome to the club

>>31178486
is that a F2000?

>>31181102
>But why can't it be solved in a ground up design?
The ARAK and LR300 did that, one ended up bankrupt and the other is well on their way to going bankrupt.

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>>31183534
Ahh. I figured as much. Thanks for the reply? Most piston ARs seem like just marketing hype. Question, how is the AR market in France? What brands and products do you guys have access to? Is building your own AR a common occurrence in France?

>>31183793
No, not that. The FAMAS F1 (and by extension MAS .223) uses a 1:12 twist barrel, which pretty much necessitates 55gr. ammo. Couple that with proprietary near-STANAG mags and it makes for a frustratingly special-snowflake rifle. I'd deal with it just to have a FAMAS, but I'd much rather have a G2 that can be fed just the same as any AR-15.

>>31183745
Why didn't they just go with a DI gun with an adjustable fast block? That seems like it would be the simplest solution to surpressed short barreled rifles.

>>31184471
As is the case with most "why didn't they just do this simpler thing" in the military, I'm guessing backroom politics played a role.

>>31184528
I mean more specifically, why didn't HK go with an adjustable gas block? Was it because an adjustable gas block didn't seem ad marketable as a piston system?

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>>31184471
>Why didn't they just go with a DI gun with an adjustable fast block?

Because there weren't any.

The perspective many here still fail to grasp is just how limited institutional knowledge of the AR was prior to the sunset of the Assault Weapon Ban and the industry boom that flourished after 2004.

Adjustable gas blocks, mid-length gas systems, acutely tuned gas ports and buffers, all of these things we are accustomed to now simply did not exist at the time the 416 was required.

HK wisely chose to modify the piston from their G-36, itself adapted from the AR-18 because it was the best solution to the problem at the time.

>>31184557
Maybe they wanted more reciprocating mass to increase the resistance to dirt? Honestly, that's a good question.

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>>31184657

Answered above. Short stroke pistons are inherently self regulating. When the primary customer is shooting short barreled rifles suppressed 90% of the time but the weapon still needs to cycle without a can you need an operating mechanism that can cope.

>>31171996
That is typical HK marketing bullshit. Kind of like their 'high reliability mags' that were supposedly made to exacting tolerances out of unobtanium and subsequently shown to be 100% fluff and even less reliable than USGI spec mags in most tests.

Feel free to show me any testing that supports an HK barrel lasting longer or beating the accuracy of an FNUSA equivalent. Or a Kreiger. Or a Pacnor. Or a GM. Or whatever else.

>>31184389
The best American brands are typically unavailable in France. There were a few Colts 6920 sold at some point, but the most common brands are Sig Sauer, S&W, Bushmaster, DPMS, Stag Arms, Ruger. Then there are the German brands : Oberland arms, Schmeisser. And the occasional brands that only make piston AR's : Hanael and V-AR.
The prices of guns and anything related are much higher in France than in the US. A $1000 AR will be typically sold for 1800€ here.
Building your own AR is unheard of. Too few availabilty of quality parts (and of the tools), too expensive, barrel, bolt, bolt carrier, upper and lower are restricted and registered just like the whole gun would be, and the vast majority of gunshops have neither the tools nor the knowledge to work on AR's in any way.

The HK416 is absolutely more reliable than a typical AR-15. That's why it was chosen as the basis for the M27.

>>31184828
Yeah, I know. Hit post before his loaded.
>>31184849
I'm half-surprised HK didn't just design the 416 to not accept anything but HK-made mags. Seems like the sort of business move they'd do.

>>31184892
This. We only have boutique ARs

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>>31185007
>I'm half-surprised HK didn't just design the 416 to not accept anything but HK-made mags.

They pretty much did, albeit unintentionally. The adoption of the M27 IAR with its extended flaired magwell prompted the USMC to ban all use of Magpul Pmags and non-GI magazines for a period.

The newest A5 revision of the 416 returns to a more traditionally dimensioned magwell, ironically around the same time Magpul revised the M3 Pmag to fit in the original 416 receiver.

>>31183534
To be fair though, I don't know whether SIG could keep up with demand for a full military contract anymore, especially not without even further dropping their QC. Minding that the complaints regarding QC recently amount to a flood. Their management is shit and seems to be running the company into the ground.

>>31184892
Damn, that's too bad. Do all of those parts have serial numbers? One of the best things about building a AR in the US is only the lower receiver is serialized and considered the gun. The rest of the parts are unrestricted.

>>31181167
because everyone has a boner for AR-15s and making a piston AR is the industry's meme. They COULD have redesigned it to work but then it would be a different gun. They wanted a piston AR

>>31184892
I could get a daniel defense AR just fine here in Finland. Have you actually even looked?

>>31169128

>I've read this meme in a few blog posts but I doubt it's actually true, probably just hearsay to make ourselves feel a little better (hey guys, it's actually a bit French, it uses French steel).

it IS true and here is the proof my fellow frog. Interview with the representative/spokeperson for H&K in France.

http://www.lepoint.fr/editos-du-point/jean-guisnel/fusil-g36-une-polemique-d-une-ampleur-deraisonnable-en-allemagne-07-03-2016-2023540_53.php

>Une controverse a éclaté sur le fait que la France ne veuille plus produire de fusils d'assaut. Mais vous soulignez que l'industrie française est présente dans vos produits allemands ?

>C'est tout à fait vrai, puisque HK ne souhaite acheter l'acier de ses canons qu'en France. Une des bases de notre métier, c'est la métallurgie. Celle-ci ne peut être mise en œuvre, à nos yeux, qu'avec les seuls aciers produits par la société française Aubert et Duval. Depuis quarante ans, nous n'utilisons que ses aciers pour produire nos canons, car ils sont les seuls capables de nous fournir les nuances d'aciers spéciaux conformes à nos besoins. Nous ne pouvons pas transiger sur la sécurité, la fiabilité et la durée de vie de nos canons, qui ont fait notre réputation. De ce fait, la part française de nos armes est très significative. Je sais bien que les aciers allemands ont aussi bonne réputation. Mais parmi les meilleurs au monde, ce sont ceux d'Aubert et Duval qui répondent le mieux à nos exigences depuis des décennies.

Alors, rassuré ?

Yes it's true. H&K barrels are made with french steel. The two companies work together since the 70's, and they won't stop doing so.

>>31185139
>The newest A5 revision of the 416 returns to a more traditionally dimensioned magwell, ironically around the same time Magpul revised the M3 Pmag to fit in the original 416 receiver.

>Be at shot show
>HK introduces the A5, now compatible with Pmags
>Magpul introduces its new Pmags, now compatible with the HK416/MR223

HA HA HA HA HA HA

>>31189032
>new pmags work with old HK416
>new HK416 work with old pmags
There's literally nothing wrong with this. People who already own a lot of pmags can now buy the new HK416. Armies with a lot of HK416 can now buy the new pmag and share between platforms.

>>31186926
yeah that's not how europe works

Obviously the French Fags can't equip the army with SCARS since those weapons are.

a) From Belgium
b) Expensive as fuck
c) The government knows the french army will just surrender at the first sign of conflict anyway

Might as well continue to bend over backwards to their german overlords kek.

>>31181102
>So if so many other piston guns exist, why can't the solve carrier tilt. I understand why it's inherent in a gun wher the piston strikes the top wher the gas key used to be. But why can't it be solved in a ground up design?
because they don't have ANY rails to offset the offline force imparted to the bcg

rails are key to preventing tilt. the ar15 was never designed to have any rails because it was never designed to be piston actuated (off-center forces).

all action forces are centerline with the BCG as the gas is directed into a chamber where it equally expands in all directions and forces the carrier rearward.

move those forces to the top of the BCG and now you have tilting with no rails to mitigate it.

>>31183204
>>31183231
>>31183745
you have larry WHY I'M FAT vickers to blame for the 416. he played a huge role in getting it developed and into production.

>>31184163
The LR300 is DI like a regular AR, it just has a really long gas key.