Primer location

>>31160085
Shut the fuck up, you goddamn queer.

File: 220px-Pin_fire[1].png (46KB, 220x263px) Image search: [Google]

46KB, 220x263px

pinfire cartridges.

they suck compared to centerfire or even rimfire.

>>31160095
top tier constructive criticism m8

>>31160114
I see. Could you tell me WHY exactly they suck? What problems do they have? Would said problem carry over if you went with a propelant other than gunpowder?

File: 9.jpg (309KB, 1294x850px) Image search: [Google]

309KB, 1294x850px

>>31160085
Pin fire exists

>>31160657
Yes, I know. But I wanna know why they suck as much as >>31160114 said.

And do you people think such design decision could work for a caseless bullet?

>>31160147
If you can't figure out why having a cartridge with a big needle thing coming out the top is impractical, there is no helping you.

PS needle guns suck too.

>>31160684
pins break easily.

reloading is a pain

not as reliable.

awkward shape means they can't load easily.

rough handling could cause the cartridge to go off

poor gas seal means it could blow up in your face.

>>31160147
Wel, not the anon you are asking to but they are a pain in the ass to manufacture and reload, as there is a protruding thingy bit on the side they are sensitive to drops, and on top of that, they cannot be loaded automatically as you have to index them in the cylinder (it was used in revolvers only) for the pin to be in a little slot where the hammer will fall.
Just imagine a fucking magazine with this. I am not saying it cannot be done but it will be a nightmare.

I am curious about electrically primed cases :
first idea : powder is sensitive to a high voltage, seems difficult because you must have two parts isolated from each other in a metallic case, will work fine with caseless

second idea : a slot or an aperture in the case where a red hot filament ignites the powder in place of a firing pin
the problem is to have an unobstructed hole in something that will reach ten of thousands of Psi. Works fine with caseless too

I think some artillery shells are electrically primed but maybe it's not used a lot

File: caseless.jpg (44KB, 500x316px) Image search: [Google]

44KB, 500x316px

>>31160692
>>31160707

No, that is not what I meant man.

The huge tube coming up from it is obviously shitty design, but as the guy posted up there some dont have it. I am talking about just the location of the primer being changed, no other modficarions. What I had in mind was a something like pic related but with the primer placed on the side near the bottom.

>>31160723
I already imagine those tubes would cause those problems. I actually thought about using eletric ignition but I don't want a gun that rellies on battery power. Can you image how shitty it would be if it ran out of juice in the middle of a firefight? For atilerly it sounds ok tough.

>>31160085
RPG rockets have the primer on the side

>>31160738
In simplest terms, a centerfire/rimfire cartridge is axially symmetrical. It works as long as you stick it into the barrel pointy end first (and that problem is solved for you too cause the cartridge is wider at the base). A cartridge with the primer on its side is not axially symmetrical. Can you see the kind of loading problems that would pose?

>>31160924
Hmmm... I see what you mean. The bullets would need to always be rotated in a certain way, and since they are normaly round even the simple act of pushing them inside a magazine could misalign it and lead to a dud fire when the trigger is pressed. Wouldn't that issu be solved by the rectangular caseless ammo though? Since due to it's shape its much easier to keep in place and almod impossible to move out out of alignment once in the magazine?

>>31160974
It would be easier but you would still have to load the cartridges in a certain way. The issue is that introduces a lot of problems while solving nothing. Whats the point?

Why not what's essentially a rimfire cartridge, but develop some kind of primer that can be applied as a coating to the inside of the case?
That way you wouldn't have to worry about cartridges getting rotated out of alignment.

File: ohssshitttnikka.png (22KB, 761x483px) Image search: [Google]

22KB, 761x483px

Hell, you could do pic related, have a coil around the chamber which emits EM pulses when you pull the trigger, then the pulses induce current in the primer in the middle of the powder which goes boom then

i have no idea what advantage this would have

>>31161051
I am actually working on a project on my spare time of a prototype caseless ammo handgun. As part of the design I had to come up with a way to safelly deal with failed ignitions and duds. My idea is to have a switch to open the back of the gun to pull the dud out, but that is hard to design with the hammer on the way. A sideways placed primmer lets me move the hammer and have a free backdoor to pull it out.

>>31161144
Sick drawing, but that idea is way less practical than mine. The only place I can see this being usefull in huge artilery on nuclear ships or such since it would allow for simpler mechanism with less room for damage over time for the gun while having acces to almost endless supply of energy from the ship's reactor.

>>31161051
Certain caseless ammo was designed to be housed inside single-use, disposable magazines, IIRC.

Caseless ammo is very finnicky, so the idea was just to soldier-proof the ammo and keep it from getting tampered with.

Of course, this is a very bold design move and I don't think any armorer has ever seriously adopted it. They did it for the g11, but that was only an experiment.

>>31160738
I suppose the G11 could have its primer on the side (that is the lower parts of the round) with the primer either going in a cross straight through it or on the sides.

Problem is that it would make your special snowflake rounds even more snowflake and difficult to manufacture (depending on the material used), and generally you need to make buttloads more ammunition than guns so it just becomes needlessly complex.

>>31161173
What I would do is have a non-reciprocating external slide that covers the actual bolt, and has a extractor attached to it. That way you can do the standard failure drill but still have a self contained spacegun thing in normal use

Your cartridges would have to have a rim but w/e

>>31161372
The problem with that is what if the cartige fails to fire due to water? I am no expert so correct me if I am wrong but the G11 bullets look like they have a semi-hardened clay texture to them. Not soft enough to accidentaly dent while manipulating but still able to be damaged with human like force. If they go wet they coulse lose coesion and the rim would just come off leaving the rest of the propelant inside.

>>31161419
I'm going to make a extremely large assumption and claim that any caseless cartridge that actually works and becomes popular (likely through military adoption) is going to be at least water resistant.
But your concern is valid, pressed together resin and gunpowder (or whatever they use) isn't going to be as strong as brass. But maybe it doesn't need to be, a human hand pulling back a slide to extract a round is only a fraction of the force a case experiences during recoil based extraction.

Also the g11 was like 40 years ago, I wouldn't look at that design for anything other that maybe inspiration

>>31160085

Best place to put it is in the center of the cartridge or at the base of the bullet.

Then have it electrically detonated.

This is one way to make casless rounds but it would also work pretty good for cased as well. And it would dramatically simplify ammo production.

The spent primer gets blown out the front of the gun along with the bullet because the propellant is behind it.

While it could probably be blown out the front if it was in the back of the case, there's a chance it could technically remain in the case or rattling in the barrel as an obstruction.

>>31161489
Yes, the water fear is kind of a moot point. But I would still want to stay on the safe side. A lot of things could happen to cause the ammo to crumble or misbehave and your rim to become useless. Maybe the gun suffered a high impact from falling a few stories or rolling down a hill and the ammo got beat up on the way down. Maybe the bullet "drys up" after some time and becomes more brittle. Maybe in the panic of combat you pull the slider way too hard, sudden or with a small angle and cause part of the ammo to crack and stay in the chamber making the next shot impossible.

Better safe than sorry.

>>31161540
Oh I definitely agree. Only when those problems, and probably many more we aren't thinking about, are solved, caseless ammo is a no go.
But, to my admittedly untrained eye, none of these problems are impossible. Its probably closer to years rather than decades before someone figures out what works

File: caseless.jpg (4KB, 259x194px) Image search: [Google]

4KB, 259x194px

>>31161530

cont'd

This is pretty much what im referring to
Though for reliability it can be cased.

Or it could just be caseless with "breakaway" pre-cut tabs that make sure the propellant remains sealed, but the ignition force has no problem forcing open.

(this is like the pre-cut portions of a soda can tab or soup cans that come with a tab, its weak enough you can open it without much force, but much sturdier than putting some wax seal on exposed propellant)

Sorta like a gyrojet bullet but with larger holes, and it expends all of the propellant before leaving the weapon.

>>31161599
I know. That is part of the reason I am designing it. It's probably never going to be adopted by anyone but I feel the need to at least try. Maybe in 50 years Ian's grandson will be reviewing my guy on Forgotten Weapons as "an artifact from an era where caseless was just a curiosity not the norm"

>>31161173
>caseless ammo handgun
Sounds dope.