Submachine guns- Obsolete?

SMG's are dead in combat / military applications.

The only thing they are still good for is home defense or security and in the US, the NFA act makes this point moot.

>>31150088
They would be useful for home defense or police use.

They're good for close quarters when you're concerned about over-penetration.

They're perfect for ships, HD, and any place where you're 100% sure that you're not going to be shooting farther than 100m.

>>31150344
HD?

>>31150389
Home Defense

>>31150389
Home Depot.

>>31150389
High Definition

>>31150344
>any place where you're 100% sure that you're not going to be shooting farther than 100m.
Given the semi-auto restrictions for civilian use a shotgun with slugs makes better sense in these scenarios. You won't be using suppressive fire so having a weapon that will 100% guaranteed put them down with a hit to the torso or head is superior to lol9mm or fuddyfive.

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>>31150217

>falls for the intermediate caliber overpenetration meme

Fuck, why do we have this thread every day?
Yes, the SMG is dead. It would be ideal for civilians if it were legal, but all we get are shitty PCCs and $10K mac10s.

>>31150389
Hillary Duff

>>31150389
Happy Days

>>31150389
Hard Disk

>>31150389
Hentai w/ Dildos

>>31150389
High Density

>>31150389
Harley-Davidson

>>31150389
Huntington's Disease

>>31150389
Hungry Daddy

>>31150389
Higher Diploma

>>31150389
Holocaust Denial

>>31150389
Hydrogen Deuteride

>>31150389
Help desk
Include me in the screencap plz

>>31150389
Hip Dysplasia

>>31150389
Hybrid Drive

>>31150389
HoDor

>>31150389
Hardcore Detection

>>31150571
don't worry, i did.

>>31150389
Hemodialysis

>>31150389
Hardcore Dudes

>>31150389
Hardcore Doctrines

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>>31150088
SMGs basically became obsolete with the advent of assault rifle intermediate cartridges. A 10" barreled 5.56 or 7.62x39 has a about the same muzzle energy as a pistol caliber carbine, but with more range. From a military supply standpoint, it's easier, and makes more sense, to issue troops who need SBRs a cut down version of the rifle already in service that uses the same cartridge as the primary issue rifle. You don't have to worry about a seperate logistical train for a pistol caliber SMG or Carbine, since your Carbine and Standard Service rifle use tha same ammo and a lot of common parts.

That said, if it weren't for the NFA, I'd be all over a 10mm sub gun with a ten inch barrel, like pic related with select fire and a ten inch barrel. I might still get one.

http://www.tnwfirearms.com/product-p/asrx-cplt-9445-xxxx-xxxx.htm

>>31150389
Heavenly Dames

>>31150389
Hot Dogs

>>31150389
Homosexual Dancers

>>31150389
Hurtful Denials

>>31150389
Hardcore Dicking

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>This thread

>>31150389
Hot Drinks

>>31150389
Hardhat Dominatrices

>>31150389
Hot Doritos

>>31150439
Shotguns with a cylinder bore at 5-15 meters still barely have any spread. At most you're looking at a fist sized grouping of no4, OO, or if you're retarded birdshot.

A pistol caliber carbine or rifle makes much more sense. Or a handgun for ease of use/carry/storage.

>>31150389
Hill dog

>>31150389
Hellen Degeneres

>>31150389
Hakenkreuz Deutschland

>>31150389
Horny Discharge

>>31150389
Heckler & Dicks

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>>31150389

Harambe Dick

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how can you say no to this

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>>31150892

With this

>>31150892
>>31150902
This desu. Though I'd like a bullet hose for fighting room-to-room I'm pretty sure modern body armor would render my ppsh useless, if we aren't fighting poorly equipped thugs.

If we are, and they don't have AKs, I'll go with the ppsh.

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>>31150389
Hillary's Dystopia

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>>31150088
Even if they are, they are still great and I would own one without hesitation because FUN.

Why do we keep having this thread?

Like Jesus Christ every other day.

Sbr>sub

SAGE

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>>31150389
Hard on Detector

>>31150820
>implying I'm talking about shot
Slugs, mah boi.

>>31150820
>slugs

>>31151028
I hope we're talking about at least a semi automatic shotgun here.

What if your intruders come in with AKs? Or even pistols? I'd want a high rof. If we're talking about multiple men with semi or automatic weapons pump action won't cut it.

>>31150950
Fort Scott/ Velocity munitions ammo, or copper spire point.

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>>31150389
Hellhound Dick

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>>31150088
For military usage?
Absolutely.

However ammo is cheaper when it comes to use by police and Civillian forces (such as militias in areas with lots of tight quarters) which means you can carry more ammo on your body (weight is NOT the only defining factor; plain old size of mag also effects this)

However for us they're also fucking pointless because they're not full auto and almost always as expensive as a rifle of the same size in an intermediate or full power cartridge which, when being used for HD, lacks all the problems that being able to carry 300/400 rounds negates.

>>31150950
Ppsh is chambered in 7.62 tok, so it might not be too bad for AP

>>31151132
Forgot to point out that law enforcement ought to go BACK to SMGs because of these reasons.

I'm not arguing with you.

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>>31151105

>>31151149

yeah i feel like a lot of the more affluent departments got suckered into the p90/mp7 meme, even though both are chambered in rounds specifically for armor piercing.

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can semi/full auto smgs be CC?

>>31150088
>And nowadays your modern PDW
PDW is a role, not necessarily a specific type of gun.

As for submachine guns, they still have the advantages of:
>rifle ammunition that isn't stupidly expensive stops being able to fragment out of sub 10" barrels and is stuck using expansion as the main wounding mechanism, making the rifle ammunition perform like pistol ammunition
>it should be noted that you aren't going to be putting a barrel much shorter than 10" in a bullpup gun
>it should also be noted that non subsonic rifle ammunition from shorter barrels will still penetrate kevlar
>for suppressed use, while cartridges like the .300 AAC Blackout exist the only real advantages it has is a flatter trajectory allowing for longer range engagements, in the event that you don't need that 9mm ammunition weighs less and generates less recoil
Basically, do you need something shorter than ~19" when stored and not need something that can penetrate kevlar/don't mind paying more for AP ammunition when needed or something suppressed but don't plan on using it past 50 to maybe 100 yards? If so then something chambered for pistol ammunition is still your best bet.

>>31151138
How do you figure?

Not arguing, just curious. I have no knowledge of the ballistics of 7.62

>>31151313
holy fuck that last run-on sentence.

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>>31150950
>I'm pretty sure modern body armor would render my ppsh useless
If they're just wearing a plate carrier with no addition kevlar coverage, it will perform the same as the AK against body armor as neither will penetrate. Also, if the AK is loaded with M43 PS ammunition which is still quite common outside of the US (it has a mild steel core and is banned from import) as it was the main type of 7.62x39mm ammunition produced by the Soviet Union and I think it's still the main type of 7.62x39mm ammunition produced by China, you'll see similar wounds from both guns as the M43 PS will just icepick through someone.

>>31151171
Think so? I've always thought of them going for m4 carbines and sometimes mp5s.

>>31151354
Sorry, I finished typing it as quickly as possible before running out to help someone with something.

>>31150088
I've heard they're popular with law enforcement.

>>31150389
Halal Dongers

>>31150389
Christ, what have i done?

>>31150389
Hennesy Drinkers

>>31151132
HD?

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>>31150389

hearty dongs

>>31151598
Bumped the thread pretty well though.

>>31150389
Hydrogen Dioxide

>>31150389
Hepatitis D

>>31150389

Honorable Discharge

>>31150389
Hi-point dominance

>>31151325
Light bullet hauling ass in a somewhat narrow diameter. You're looking at 1700 FPS out of a PPSh. Most soft armor only works up to 1600 FPS. Do note the velocity is more like 1400 out of a pistol.

>>31150389
Holy Diver.

>>31150389
Horny Dog

>>31151786
Might want to double check those claims.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qxu8ezXdx5o

>>31151325
7.62x25 Tokarev is a hot little round. Superior to 9mm imo, I dont know why the Russians went to 9x18

>>31150389
Heretic Deities

>>31150389
Hillary Did911

>>31151935
>I dont know why the Russians went to 9x18
Because the guns chambered for it are simpler to produce. Also as someone who owns both a surplus TT33 and a Makarov, I'd rather take the Makarov.

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>>31150389
Humpty's Dump

>>31150440
are you fucking retarded ? actually shoot some bullets through shit before you talk.

>>31151977
I'd imagine the cartridge being bottlenecked complicates things?

>>31152021
No, the difference is the 9x18 Makarov works better with a straight blowback action due to it being less powerful, which greatly simplifies the gun. The bottleneck cartridge doesn't complicate things and there have been conversion barrels for bottle necked calibers such as .32 NAA made for the Makarov.

>>31151998
>dianne feinstein statue
proves she is an evil commie, living people shouldn't have statues.

also we should drop toy guns off there everyday.

>>31151933
Most armor used is IIa (concealed vests). 7.62 Tok can skip through it out of a pistol. Level II vests can be overcome by Tok, especially out of a longer barrel. The fact that 7.62 Tok is not in NIJ tests means we can throw examples of it piercing and not, at different levels.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Ballistic%20Gelatin%20Tests/7.62x25mm%20Body%20Armor%2010%20Percent%20Ballistic%20Gelatin.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20090201024753/http://brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1242.htm

>>31150389
Hat Day

>>31152279
>Most armor used is IIa
Maybe a decade ago, now days all concealed vests are NIJ II, police in larger cities use NIJ IIIa vests, and you'd be lucky to even find a place that would sell you an NIJ IIa vest (last I checked there was only one company still making NIJ IIa vests and that was a year or two ago).

>>31150389
Henry Danger

>>31150389
Harvey Dent

>>31152336
>NIJ IIIa vests
Not rated against 7.62×25mm anyway. Steel core milsurp can be a problem. Thanks Gods ATF does good job keeping these AP bullets from the streets.

>>31152336
http://www.bodyarmoroutlet.com/body-armor/concealable-body-armor.html?protection_filter=6410
http://www.galls.com/galls-lx-series-iia-body-armor?PMWTNO=000000000002115&PMSRCH=
http://www.atlantictactical.com/category/concealable-body-armor
If they aren't still made, they're still in ready supply.

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>>31150389
Henry Draper star catalogue

>>31152657
>specific miliary surplus
So what, there's 9mm AP surplus on the market that will go through an NIJ IIIa vest if you know what to look for. 7.62x25mm is not unique in that way.

>>31152684
Last I checked that one from Galls was the only one. Also, your third link has a mix of NIJ IIIa, II, and IIa concealable vests.

>>31152917
The atlantic tactical site would not let me post a link restricting to just the IIa vests, of which they offer 3 variants of Summit mn01.

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>>31150189
>the Hughes amendment makes this point moot.

Fixed that for ya.

>>31150389
Holy dong.

>>31150902

>Piece of crap tapco 74 style brake.

Take that shit off and get a real one. The Tapco doesn't function nearly as good and isn't even built correctly.

>>31150389
Herpa Derp

>>31150389
Homeless Doggers

>>31150389
Hitler's Death

D-did anyone cap all those fucking replies? Holy kek.

>>31150389
Hilarious dingos

>>31150389
High Dangerousness

>>31153176
>bitch has hand over barrel
I am triggered

>>31150389
Hisa Daikouku

>>31151105
I hope that doesn't have a dick.

No sbr can be as small as a FA Glock.

>>31157736
I hope it does

>>31150389
Ha ha the amount of responses this got was hilarious.

>>31150088
As long as the military uses the same small unit tactics and engage in conflicts in urban areas ... Smgs will never go away. They have good short range suppressing fire

>>31150440
I agree with >>31152004 you're a moron probably nogunz eurotrash

>>31150389
Hothead Detective

>>31150389
Hellenic Deployment (Deployment of modern greek military forces)

>>31157974
Get this guy out of here.

>>31157974
>>31158012
I want your badge on my desk by 5 o'clock

did. I do not know how that was translated to mean that it will puncture level III.

>>31157771
Confirmed for being retarded. The military does small unit CQ tactics with M4s. I've been Army for 6 years and I have literally never seen an SMG my entire time in.
You know what has similar magazine capacity and even better short range suppressive fire and is more adaptable at more ranges? A fucking intermediate carbine.

>>31158090
Weird. It cut off like 3/4 of my post.

I was rambling on about the meme that 7.62x25 is armor piercing. Neato, it can punch through II sometimes. Somehow people got it in their head that this makes it able to puncture III and IIIA. C'mon guys.

Oh, and the guy talking about 7.62x39 and 7.62x25 performing the same is a fucking idiot. By that logic, 7.62x39 should perform identically to .300 win mag.

>>31150389
Hall Detents

>>31158090
I've been in the army for 7 years though

>>31158106
You were going to prattle on about shit your cherry ass won't know until year 7. take a backseat kid I got this

>>31150088
>And nowadays your modern PDW
Not used by any army and an evolutionary dead end bigger than SMG's.

SMG's are good because some of them fire subsonic ammunition so if you want to be quiet they're good. They also have very little recoil while using widespread cardridges like 7,62 tokarev, 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Makarov or .45.

PDW's use special-snowflake ammunition that is something in-between intermediate cartridges like 5,56 or 5,45 and pistol cartridges. It might sound great on paper but in reality short barrelled rifles are better if you really want more firepower out of SMG-sized weapon and SMG's are good enough for tank crews or home defence.

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>>31157748

>>31152128
Print AR lowers at low infill. It won't be usable, just symbolic like the toys. I threw the STL into the calculator, it would take about 2 hours and cost a measly $6

>>31150088
>though you could argue they're merely an extension/evolution of SMGs.
I always do argue this. They're SMGs in necked pistol cartridges.

>>31151105

S-sauce?

>>31150389
Hitler Diddling

>>31150389
Hawaiian Dicking

>>31150820
>or if you're retarded birdshot.
Birdshot within ten feet can and will kill, it's basically a slug still unless you have a choke to give it some spread. Shoot a dindu in the upper chest with a 2 3/4" high brass and it'll shatter the sternum and ribs. Jamal can try but breathing's hard when you have bone in your trachea. Effectiveness rapidly drops off past that range, but that's shooting across a room.

>>31150389
Herpes Demonic.

>>31151421
H-hang on mom I'm shitposting rq.