Have submachine guns become obsolete, or do they still have a role?

>Obsolete
For the most part, yes. Their role on the battlefield has been completely supplanted, and in most other applications an SBR will do the job better. Note I said "most", as there are still a few situations in which an SMG will truly excel at. Not many, though.

Urban areas, riding in cars.

Theyre still ok.

>>31073344
CQB?

>>31073317
They are pretty much obsolete. Submachineguns are currently only used in very niche roles today. Most of them have been supplanted by short barreled rifles.

>>31073362
SBRs, carbines.

The only real use SMGs have in this day and age is by SWAT guys in confined urban environments. The MP5 is probably the "pinnacle" of their development in this regard.

>>31073362
There's short barreled rifles that seem to do well in that role. If there's one thing that a Submachinegun has going for them is that they're very light, compact and (usually) cheap.

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>>31073317
Fighting inside buildings, killing non-soldiers or third world soldiers.

They'll always have a place in my heart.

>>31073317
Crewman and MP/police weapons I suppose.

I'm sure a suppressed .45 subgun has some uses.

>>31073317
mine still serves me for fun, i am saddened that they will prolly no longer make them because there are some good ones out there, but then came ar platform with upper options galore and sbr
oh well , i m rich i will buy them still

>>31073317
you are obsolete OP

>>31073317
perfect for people who do not handle firearms that often, like tank crews or truck drivers
they fit the PDW role perfect

>>31073317
>Have submachine guns become obsolete, or do they still have a role?
From a war perspective? Yeah pretty much. You can use them for spray and pray if you're a nigger but that's basically all they're good for.

>>31073362
Rifles are reaming them H A R D in that area.

They're pretty much only useful for being concealable and people who don't mind hitting everything in an area.

Not to mention the stupidity you get into with mags for them.

Literally the only thing they're better at is noise suppression.

>>31073317
For pretty much everything except ship boarding and riding in vehicles yes.

>>31073411
dont forget ships
but yeah
/thread

Short barreled AKs are cheaper, similarly priced ammo, far more powerful and robust, and actually useful in semi-auto mode.

>>31074385
>>31074143
So for a dangerous loading bay in some shithole country, would it be cheaper to arm everyone with SBRs or SMGs?

>>31073317

No, there's a meme going around that rifle rounds are fantastic at killing people, and pistol rounds are terrible.
With big rifle rounds, there's certainly a case to be made, but intermediate rifle rounds like 5.56 are just about as shit as 9mm.

So SBRs are no better than SMGs, and are less compact.

>>31074501
t. Retard

>>31074512

fukken pwned

>>31074512

Not an argument.

>>31074553
Neither is "lol just as bad"

>>31074563

Yes it is.
You have incorrectly conflated an argument with evidence or reasoning in support of it.
Which I would of course provide if asked.

>>31074563

shooting rifle rounds out of a short barrel generally makes them less effective, whereas shooting pistol rounds out of a short barrel actually benefits them in terms of velocity.

>>31074581
No evidence, not an argument.

>>31074501

That's fucking wrong though.

Rifle rounds will actually have a chance to pen body armor at close range, pistol rounds will not.

Rifle rounds cause more internal damage to organs, because the temporary wound cavity will stretch organ tissue beyond the point of elasticity, causing tears and hemorrhaging, pistol rounds will not.

not to mention logistics, I would rather ship 50,000 5.56x45 rounds to a warzone for both rifles and SBRs than 40,000 5.56x45 and 10,000 9x19 and potentially hamstring operations.

Tell you what, 1v1 me bruh, we both wear lvl III plate and I'll bring an SBR in 5.56 and you bring an SMG in 9mm.

>>31074582
That really depends on the rounds in question. 7.62x39 only loses a couple hundred fps out of a 10"-12" barrel, but 5.56 loses a fuckload.

>>31074598

You obviously don't understand what an argument is.
This conversation is pointless.

>>31074623

>Rifle rounds will actually have a chance to pen body armor at close range, pistol rounds will not.
Not against body armor any competent military uses.
If you're talking about soft armor, then AP pistol rounds exist that will defeat that too.

>Rifle rounds cause more internal damage to organs, because the temporary wound cavity will stretch organ tissue beyond the point of elasticity, causing tears and hemorrhaging, pistol rounds will not.
If that's true, then why is the 5.7x28 such a failure in its terminal ballistics?
Surely it would be better than 9mm if what you say is true.

>not to mention logistics, I would rather ship 50,000 5.56x45 rounds to a warzone for both rifles and SBRs than 40,000 5.56x45 and 10,000 9x19 and potentially hamstring operations.
We already use and ship 9mm, anon.

>Tell you what, 1v1 me bruh, we both wear lvl III plate and I'll bring an SBR in 5.56 and you bring an SMG in 9mm.
No competent army uses level III and you know it.

The vast majority of rolls the SMG was intended to fill have largely been replaced by SBRs and carbines, because those two things are better at just about everything, to the point that they even managed to negate the rise of the SMG concept's successor; the PDW. Anyone who debates this is delusional.

>>31074701
>rolls
Kek, roles*

>>31074701

PDWs are a meme developed by gun companies to sell governments weapons they dont need that shoot special snowflake bullets that only the manufacturer supplies

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>>31073317
The Colt CQBR basically killed the MP5.
NSW were the first people to receive Mk.18s in SOCOM and they jumped all over them.
Apparently 9mm (though less than 45) can ricochet and bounce around off of steel whereas 5.56 disintegrates due to the velocity and lighter bullet, which NSW liked for CQB scenarios involving ships/GOPLAT. The Mk.18 is also lighter than an MP5 with the same capacity and compatible with the entire SOPMOD block, huge plus. And 5.56 has better external and terminal ballistics than 9mm, so it was an all around huge improvement.

Still see pictures of a few MP5SDs in Iraq/Afghanistan use by SEALs, but with the MP7 around I doubt they see any use in the last few years.

>>31074501
>intermediate rifle rounds like 5.56 are just about as shit as 9mm.

Jesus /k/ seems to be getting dumber by the day. I blame the elections.

>>31074717
To be fair, the governments asked for it first.

It's just funny after all the trials when they went yeaaaah uhhh...all that work you did for us? We don't want any.

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>>31073317
Very small smg's like your pic, the micro uzi or the Steyr tmp, are concealable under heavy clothes and as such are good for bodyguards who need serious firepower when shtf.

>>31074750
Kind of hard to say yes to the PDW when it turns out SBRs blow them out of the water, all while using the same round you've got plenty of and shares parts with your issued rifles.

>>31074632
>>31074582

M855 out of an 11" barrel has almost 1000fps more than M882 out of the same barrel.

>>31074665

>Not against body armor any competent military uses.

So what you're saying is that armor offers the same protection from rifle AND pistol rounds?

wew lad

tell you what, we'll both wear lvl IV plates and take turns shooting each other center mass, I'll use M855 out of an 11" SBR, you use M882 out of an 11" barrel.

>AP pistol rounds exist that will defeat that too

Okay, so what you're saying is that M855 will defeat soft armor, but M882 will not, okay, good.

>If that's true, then why is the 5.7x28 such a failure in its terminal ballistics?

5.7 is shot from a shorter barrel, plus, its casing is half an inch shorter than 5.56, also, if you get your special 9mm AP rounds, how come 5.7mm doesn't, and the special snowflake AP 5.7mm actually does shit all over armor.

>We already use and ship 9mm, anon

a much, much smaller amount than we would have to if we started seriously issuing SMGs. The more weapons using the same round the better.

>No competent army uses level III and you know it.

So what you're saying

>soft armor
defeated by basic ball 5.56, and special snowflake AP pistol ammo

>lvl III
defeated by enough ball 5.56 or special AP rounds, not defeated by 9mm or 9mm AP rounds within a reasonable amount of shots on target, but it doesn't matter because nobody uses it

>lvl IV
immune to bullets so it doesn't matter (which is wrong)

lvl IV will get penetrated by enough 5.56, whereas it will eat 9mm basically all day.

Jesus, the delusion is real

Are machine pistols also obsolete?

>>31074808
Machine pistols were never relevant to begin with, Anon.

>>31074808
The only applications are really for civilian usage so yes, until the NFA goes away.

>>31074808
Machine pistols actually are the only members of the SMG family that have a means of staying relevant today and into the future, as >>31074791 laid out.

>>31074835
>>31074832
>>31074830
I always thought they would stay popular with SWAT units, it just makes more sense to me that the guy with the ballistic shield have a machine pistol. He may not need to full auto everytime, but has the option if he does.

>>31074893

my department issues G18Cs to shield guys on the tac team during operations.

>>31074909
Does it double as a grenade?

>>31074922

Yes, that is why they wear heavy gloves.

>>31074832
But in self defense scenarios, even with a lift on the full auto ban, machine pistols would be hard to justify i guess.

>robber tries to rob you
>you draw your full giggle glock 18 and shoot, unloading the full mag in an blink of an eye
>5 bullets hit the agressor, 25 land in the neighborhood (you had an extended mag) and 1 of them kills a little girl 100ft away
>enjoy getting buttfucked in prison

I almost certain a "simple" pistol would be better for self defense. They would still make great plinking toys though.

I can see them making logistical sense for a police force.

>>31075019
SMGs would basically become the new poorfag HD option if the NFA was lifted.

>A sten is cheaper than a pump shotgun
>Fairly low fire rate, so controllable
>Easy to learn and use
>Lots of dakka

Playing devils advocate, at ranges under 100 yards a SMG is relatively controllable when compared in contrast with a assault rifle (key word relatively). For police it is a more acceptable aternative to a SAW

>>31075098
we would have sterling vs sten threads like we do 870 vs 500

>>31073317
Speaking from LEO experience, at least, the blast and noise from an SBR is annoying to work with when in a house, and having an SMG (40 S&W UMP) that shares ammunition with our pistols is convenient. Cheaper to buy HST's in bulk anyway.

>>31074445
For people like you and memeing the SBR, I can destroy your arguments with one word:

OVERPENETRATION

>>31075208
sten vs grease

>>31074463
Kalashnikov's.

>>31075337
>OVERPENETRATION
Anyone else want to tell him or should I?

>>31075337
You are now aware that 5.56 and 5.45 have less capacity for penetrating interior drywall and brick than 9mm. Even M193 starts to shred itself immediately after impacting plaster and studs.

give it another 3 years, they will be back in fashion as people continue to want ARs that are ultra-short, ergo they will eventually realize the .223 round is barely better than a hot 9mm and not worth the added weight or janky ergonomics of the AR platform

If you already have them, because you got them in the 80s, and they were still working. Would you shell the bucks for new SBRs?

Sneaky beaky shit maybe, because why bother buying .300 memeout when you have 9mm and a bunch of otherwise unused guns lying around

>>31075650
.300 Blackout is not a meme, it is the future.

>>31075941
The memest of cartridges

>>31075994
No, it is the future.

It's the ultimate intermediate rifle cartridge.

>>31076197
*intermemeiate

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Russians seem to like them still for what it's worth, and they have plenty of SBR style rifles available.

>>31077158
Russia uses armor piercing ammo for practically everything though, so of course SMGs are still viable for them

Tank crews, pilots, special forces in urban environments all still use SMG's. They are a niche now days though.

Actually they're not. On a battlefield? You're Probably not worried about things like cost and over penetration.

But for law enforcement use they're making a comeback. Many departments like the idea of sub guns because they share ammo with a department's sidearm which means cheaper costs in the long run. It also serves a roll when police are responding to an active shooter at a school or a movie theater because police don't like the idea of over penetration when engaging the shooter.

t. Guy who asked these questions to a sheriff when he brought his semi auto ump to the range today

SMG's beat SBR's when firring suppressed since they work with subsonic ammo. Other than that SBR's are probably the better option.

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>>31077803
Outside of "Sentry removal" SMGs are on the way out.

>>31074893
The S&W R8 was designed specifically for the point man with a shield on a SWAT team or something similar like guys doing a DEA or US Marshalls raid. The idea behind it was that the guys actually carrying the shields said that the slide of a regular handgun had a tendency to whack the shield and cause FTEs under stressful situations. Also, they apparently wanted a more powerful round or whatever. Not sure how much of that is true or fuddlore or whatever, but yeah.

>>31077858
LEO's and security guard who operate indoors may also prefer SMG's

smgs became obsolete with the advent of the bullpup design.

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>>31078060

>>31074463
I would argue SBRs probably. You can swap the uppers to full length barrels if needed. I don't know if you would get much more out of a 9MM with a 16" barrel.

I'm a no guns faggot though, so don't take my word for it.

>>31075342
>Not going Owen Gun

Fag

>>31078060
Are you retarded? Memepups have nothing to do with it, introducing intermediate rounds did.

>>31073411
but anon, those are PDWs.

Entirely different class of weapon, designed to fill noncombat/auxillary role.

>>31074501
>intermediate rifle rounds like 5.56 are just about as shit as 9mm.
What the fuck?

>>31074338
>hitting everything in an area
your inexperience is showing.

>>31079184
They're MP5s

>PDW
"PDW" is a marketing term, there's no clear definition. Many of the guns that are labeled PDWs are simply SMGs by the common definition of SMG (small rifle firing a pistol cartridge). A few are in 5.56, like FN's SCAR PDW. It's whatever the company feels like slapping the PDW label on.

NATO's first request for a "personal defense weapon" was just a more formal way of saying "gun". NATO asked for a shoulder fired PDW and a handheld PDW. Aka a rifle and pistol. And they also asked for the two PDWs share ammo, so basically they were asking for an SMG and pistol.
>noncombat/auxillary role
They were definitely intended for combat roles, but as backup weapons, not frontline weapons
>"personal protection in last-resort situations when the user is directly endangered by the enemy"