What happens innawar if your commander orders you to take up

I doubt it.

>>31069183
They aren't exactly totally exposed. There's that curb and the railings.

Why would you need to retreat? There's no way Germany will lose, those Russian cowards will surrender any day now and we will all be home before autumn.

>>31069183
They were given mission type orders, they can defend that position however they like.

Depends on how negotiating mood your squad/platoon leader is in, if they're not a total fucking retard they wont have an issue if you show a better idea

Higher command giving the order to a platoon or higher to do what is practically a suicide mission is not negotiable tho

>>31069183
How is that a bad position? They're firing downwards with a small curb in front of them? All they need to do is back up a bit and nobody down there can shoot them

>>31069200
Mission type tactics don't apply to non-leaders. If your squad leader tells you to hold here, you hold here.

>>31069202
Well, if they have to send reinforcements because you've run out of ammo, you might be fine.

>>31069217
>How is that a bad position? They're firing downwards with a small curb in front of them? All they need to do is back up a bit and nobody down there can shoot them

the fortress walls in the back ground look taller and since the are apparently expecting enemy's from over there, so i don't know about that

>>31069183
Only if you can provide a better alternative, and they agree it's a better alternative.

>>31069351
>all defence is just one straight line against wave attacks of enemies
>waves get harder as they go on with chance of boss characters appearing

>>31069217
>Mission type tactics don't apply to non-leaders. If your squad leader tells you to hold here, you hold here.

Are you saying high command gives leaders in the field flexibility, while soldiers in the field are expect to follow an order to the letter, no matter how suicidal?

Because that sounds perfectly reasonably, since a grunt doesn't have the big picture.

>>31069351
Because clearly the enemy is in control of the of the castle. Notice how they're aiming to the left of it and standing in the open, looking from its wall. It's beyond obvious that there's multiple machineguns and atleast a company's worth of soldiers there.

>>31069376
Yes. Grunts are expected to follow orders to the letter to ensure effective combat. They're there to shoot, kill, bleed and die. Not to think.

>>31069388
>looking from its wall
looking left of it's wall*

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>>31069183
looks like they are covering the area next to the castle, to which they are on higher ground atleast

>>31069366
what is your point?

>>31069388

all i'm is trying to say is that if there are higher positions available to your enemy then that curb, then you can get hit even if you stay low and fall back a bit from the edge of the curb. i hope for them that the castle is held by friendly forces

>>31069502
>all i'm is trying to say is that if there are higher positions available to your enemy then that curb, then you can get hit even if you stay low and fall back a bit from the edge of the curb. i hope for them that the castle is held by friendly forces
All you're trying to say is so ridiculously obvious it's not even worth saying.

>>31069388
>grunts expected to follow orders and die

Completely untrue. As an army officer in combat arms you can rest assured that at every level of leadership you are given a task and purpose.

>task: utilizing crew serve weapon defend this position
>purpose: defeat enemy advance

Task < purpose. Especially if you're given a suicidal one. Look at it this way, If you complete the task, but fail to achieve the purpose ;what use are you? Enemy uses alternative route, you reposition the weapon system. not just sit there like "durrr following orders" a stupid soldier is absolutely worthless to me.

If you're talking about other armies or other times then you have an argument. But such sweeping accusations rustle my jimmies

>>31069217

If an enemy force appeared on the opposite river bank they better hope they can suppress them with the machine gun, even then it doesn't look like they could pull back safely.
If there are any enemy at all in that castle they are fucked period.

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>>31069550
And how exactly does this enemy "appear". Do they drop out of the sky, dig through the ground, or just appear there out of thin air?

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>tfw you're being commanded by a fucking pog whose job before the retreat towards Berlin was to babysit children in the HJ
>tfw your commander isn't even wearing his belt right
>tfw your AT, MG, and DMR are in the same trench

>>31069574
Looks like training to me.

As infantry, the only orders you can question have to do with humanitarian ethics, not self preservation.
Your commander may fully intend for you to defend that position and provide suppressive fire and ultimately die for the cause...and that's your job and their right to order.
Surely you knew this?

>>31069523
sure it is obvious, but if i'm correct the photo is from the battle of navra and that is the fortress of Ivangorod.
the bridge to the other side of the river is already blown so that means the germans have already withdrawn form the fortress or else they be stranded there.
this would mean that the position is available to the enemy

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>>31069183

>>31069670
Battle of Narva.

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>>31069670
It wasn't available to the Soviets though, since the Germans fudged the demolitions, had to counter-attack back to Ivangorod, pushed the communists back away from the Ivangorod's surroundings, retreated, blew it up and continued with the retreat. The image is almost certainly from the time of the retreat itself and looking at Google maps, their position is quite good and any fire superiority the Soviets could offer, would come from a lower level, meaning the Krauts could easily just back away.

https://www.google.com/maps/@59.3773919,28.2021258,3a,75y,113.6h,83.86t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1soqD8pVq_dFdEEiYLLjsrmQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DoqD8pVq_dFdEEiYLLjsrmQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D288.15488%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

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What happens innawar if your commander orders you to get out of the trench and slowly walk towards enemy line in a formation? Can you refuse?

>>31069788
why would you refuse. clearly after the artillery barrage no german defender are alive!

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>>31069788
He shoots you.

>>31069530
You're either an idiot or a liar, mate. Pick one.
If you're an officer, you know damn well the orders at any time may be for one grunt, two grunts, or many grunts to hold a line where the purpose is to provide interference or suppression at a particular strategic bottleneck, and that there may not be an exit strategy for those that do beyond "good luck if you two don't achieve your 'mission' of killing the 150 enemy troops advancing on your position."

>>31069797
>>31069192

kek

>>31069202
remember watching some documentry on bbc about british forces in afghanisthan

some lt tells this guy to get some kind of mine blowing up device he says they are under fire

the lt says he doesn't care get it

the guy jumps up and runs to get it he gets shot in the back and dies

>>31069366
so how many would have to die until churchill stalin or the american president would come in, in his mecha suit firing rockets

>>31069788
they had to walk slowly cos there was timed barrages attacking the enemy trenches to get them to keep there heads down. Had they all rushed in there own barrages would have hit them.

Don't forget this was a time before they had communication equpment. Also they had major fuck up like one co having a watch 5 mintues ahead of another CO so they fucked up badly. Also the high cammand was just amazingly autistic they send men wave after wave knowing they would die thinking it would be a game changer. Amazing they didn't revolt the French sure did tho

>>31070134
>French sure did tho
Really? Could you point me to something to read about it?

>>31069183

The only orders you are allowed to refuse are criminal orders and orders that will lead to war crimes.

However if your squadleder isnt a compleate retard you can make suggestions on a better position.

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>>31070183
>The only orders you are allowed to refuse are criminal orders and orders that will lead to war crimes.
How does that even make sense ? You have to do some mental gymnastics.
He's your superior, you are there doing a job, you do as you are told.
> War
> War Crimes
They only become war crimes if you lose the fucking war

>>31070155
just google french army mutinies.

The walking slowly towards machine guns fire is mostly from the first few days of the Somme it stuck in popular imagination as the entirity of WW1 though.

>>31069183
Request permission to grab a few sandbags to provide some additional cover, otherwise man up and realize the situation will never be optimal and that this time you got the short side of the straw, and it's your turn to do your bit to protect your comerades.

>>31069388
>Yes. Grunts are expected to follow orders to the letter to ensure effective combat. They're there to shoot, kill, bleed and die. Not to think.
Sounds like someone has never heard of the principles of followership. Good followers follow orders, but know when to question and suggest alternatives. And good leadership knows when to listen and when to disregard comments from below.

>>31070155
Have you tried googling french army ww1 mutinies?

>>31069761
i don't understand why the fortress position would not be available to the soviets as the bridge is already destroyed, so no germans could be defending it. i mean if they are in the lower streets to be shot at by the MG they could be as easily in the fort which would be a ofcourse be a priority position in the terrain

>>31070247
>man up and allow yourself to be killed for no good reason

>>31070288
>Die defending the best available position of defense, even though it is pretty shitty

Again, without further details, it is an entirely what if scenario. I would like to believe that overhang position is the best available position, and a necessary position to defend or provide overwatch. Otherwise, I hope the troops and commander would be able to negotiate a superior alternative.

>>31070268
Because it's high ground with the only weapons capable of taking it being anything a man can carry up. The Germans would have heavy firepower, in the form of mortars, tanks and assault guns. Climbing up there is pretty much just asking to be shot.

>>31070223
So if your PL tells you to shoot those 5 tied up kids you will do that?

Ill tell you what will happen then, high command will fuck you, your PL and every one else involved in the ass.

Plenty of winners has been taken to court for war crimes to. We are not like our enemy, we are better than them and dont pull ISIS shit on civilians.

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>>31070325
>We are not like our enemy, we are better than them and dont pull ISIS shit on civilians.

>>31070639
Yes, dersden was a war crime and should be treated as such. But just because we have done bad things it doesnt mean we should keep on doing them.

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>>31069200

Mission Type Orders, you say?

>>31069183
Today it's theoretically possible to make yourself commander if your actual squad leader seems to be unfit for leadership. But you better have a point because if you don't you'll get fucked afterwards. At least there are illegal orders you don't have to follow. Like if a superior asks you to wash his car in civil times.

>>31069183
>Can you refuse?
Yes

>>31069825

There's risk inherent with the job. But the concept of suicide missions is a TV fantasy in modern Era. You don't fight a battle you won't win. If you need to fight a battle of attrition then you plan for primary, secondary, and tertiary fall back positions. You accept the potential for losses but you do everything possible to bring everyone home. It's like you forget that officers are the ones who write the letters home explaining why we failed to keep your son/husband alive. The connection is very real.

You literally have no idea what you're talking about other than the shit from Hollywood and shit tier countries.

>>31069183
Then you find some shit to protect yourself with

Tables, chairs, corpses, beds, sofas, rubble, etc.

>>31069366
>not having context of image
>implying there's no supporting mortar position
>implying there's no riflemen in surrounding buildings
>implying this is the only MG in the area

>>31070243


>The walking slowly towards machine guns fire is mostly from the first few days of the Somme it stuck in popular imagination as the entirity of WW1 though.

Its also mostly a myth. The majority of British attacks on the first day of the Somme succeeded in taking their objectives. They advanced at a walk because they were following a creeping barrage.

The only problem was in *some* sectors the guns had insufficient shells to fully suppress the enemy and *some* units encountered unexpectedly heavy fire. They were never actually ordered to just walk into enemy machine guns knowingly.

>>31070074
My little brother had something similar.

>black SL who has it out for white guys
>kicking in doors doing some door to door fighting
>next building they are checking brother see door with what looks like an IED with wires and shit
>black guy tells him to take door down
>points out the IED looking shit at the door to him
>tells him he doesnt give a fuck and to get in there
>little brother just stares at him like he cant hear him
>orders guy next to him to get in the building
>guys goes through door dies to IED

Brother notices a trend that when this guy gives orders he only gives the dangerous suicidal orders to the white guys. Brings this up to other people and it quickly sweep under the rug and my brother was transferred out to hawaii.

Now he is out of the army he hates niggers and thinks the military should be segregated.

>>31072350

So I guess the SL didn't feel bad that he got someone killed?

He's got issues that go deeper than just racism.

>>31069183
The commander needs you alive just as much as you need yourself alive you know.

>>31069183
salute him at every opportunity...

>>31072350
>not teamkilling him back

This is why we can't have nice things.

>>31070223
If you're in an army of a country that doesn't respect the geneva convention you will be let off with "just following orders"

If you're in the US marines and someone tells you to commit a war crime you can get in serious shit if you follow through.

>>31072350
Isn't that the type of issue that got guys fragged in 'Nam?

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>>31069183
>tfw you will never gun down Bolsheviks on the Eastern Front

>>31070639
>implying that wasn't perfectly legal under the laws of war at the time

pussy

>>31073780
>legal
>moral
lel

>>31069183

>>31069185
This

If a officer order me to hold position, on the high ground, ill wont refuse, same thing with vantages place bunkers or ledges and 3 to 8 story buildings.

If it was in the open or in their killzone, then i might not and detest officer orders... but nevertheless, officer's orders are orders.

Welp! That generally depends on officer competence and leadership.

>>31069574
Neat

VG-5

>>31073757
you could join the ukraine army ?

>>31072350
am kind of socked there is racism in the militry

>>31073885
>war
>moral

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>>31069183

With an MG34 and a team? nigga my bullets are the cover

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>>31074767

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>>31069183
Commanders dont give specifics on normal military. They order a general position or the area you need to hold down. It's the squad leader that decides on the small details and even then the squad level bonding is usually so strong that they make decisions together and reap the benefits and problems from them together. Sergeants are op anyway and always do whats best for the squad.

>>31074725
I talk with some guy about serving in ukrainian volunteer battalion. He said that now is a bad timing, because they have issues with ukrainian government.

>>31069183
I'm a historian and I know what would happen in this given example. You could tell the commander, "Nein, mein Heir" which means "Fuck off" in German.

Then they would break out the schnitzel.

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>>31069183
Well, they can't lose. I mean, they literally CAN NOT DIE in that position. It's literally impossible. Just ask my friend here.

>>31069825
>If you're an officer, you know damn well the orders at any time may be for one grunt, two grunts, or many grunts to hold a line where the purpose is to provide interference or suppression at a particular strategic bottleneck, and that there may not be an exit strategy for those that do beyond "good luck if you two don't achieve your 'mission' of killing the 150 enemy troops advancing on your position."
You're an idiot if you think this is how it ever happens or works.


protip: that rearguard you just sent on a suicide mission had direct relevance to the overall fighting power of the main formation

>>31069396
>stupid

You don't put an apostrophe when it's possessive, did you fail English?

>>31070223
Is that 250th Infantry Division( aka Blue Divison)? Looks like it.

>>31072350

Blacks can't be racist hasn't your brothter learn anything?


Yes you can refuse but it will come with some consequences.

>>31072350
Black dudes I've worked with also get too aggressive with teammates, it's like everything is a moment away from a me vs them mentality where the dindu is some kind of underdog. Small disagreements, something that normally would be a discussion with maybe some cussing and joking, turns into an actual fucking blow-up.

>>31073359
the sl sould have been a black panther member and wants to kill whites god knows

don't the army check on people like that

If your NCO or officer was a faglord that refuses good advice and sends his men to die because of his stupidity, you can always frag him.

>>31069183
If the officer is worth a damn, he'll ask his squad sgts about where they feel they can best contribute to the mission.

If the NCO is worth a damn, he'll stop the PL and come with a solution like "sir, I feel it would be better here for this reason"

It is hardly ever a one sided issue.

>>31069183
>unlimited liability

>>31072350
i was an 11b in hawaii and i agree with your brother.

>>31069183
If a unit is posted up like this, its because they're on the advance, or they're exposing themselves to give covering fire. Honestly, Nobody wants to be exposed in combat. Your life expectancy drops to mere seconds.

>>31083292
Maybe instead of garnering a predjudice for black people, your brother should've continued to press the issue stateside. Shit like that is the reason why bullshit like this in the military.

>>31069183
tell the officer you have a tummy ache

>>31069183
Place a claymore on the stairs and get the recon to deploy a tugs.
t bf4 veteran.

>>31074945
>>31074725
Russian Federation is not bolsheviks

>>31069579
Look closer, no more time for training at this point in the war.

>>31069183
Do these guys look even faintly worried? The guy with the MP doesn't even have his weapon at ready, ffs, and just sitting there.

>>31070639

Nazi-owned; literally Hitler. Not even the Germans disagree that this was justified.

>>31069183
No you die with honor anon

>>31070134
It's pretty fucking amazing how stupid high command was. Like how is that even a fucking strategy?

>>31070325
This.
Becaise isis doesnt have an airforce to bomb civilians, they have to get close and personal