Why aren't semiauto, high-capacity shotguns more popular

just stick that in my ass plz

>>31056360
Mostly due to just weight and the price of them
I know my dad would love one of those. But he's not willing to pay a $1000+ for one
So he just sticks with his mossman

>>31056360
One word, reliability.

>>31056440
This.

As it stands there's bretty much only one out the box mag fed that even can be considered passingly reliable.

>>31056360
>Drum for defensive operation

Fuck no, 8 round straight from russia, regardless of the platform

>>31056360
>provided your drum doesn't jam

Why post a thread when you answer your own question. More is usually better, but not when it's a hit to reliability and ~6 shots will generally be more than enough.

Also semi-autos are more expensive and generally a pump shotgun will kill someone dead just as well.

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> Automatic shotgun
> Home Defense
Pick one?

>>31056509
Benelli needs to hurry up and make a mag fed for the market. They acquired Franchi for a reason didn't they?

>>31056360
>Slugs
>For home defense
Maybe if you live in a bunker with reinforced concrete walls.

>>31056527
He never said automatic, nogunz.

>slugs

Enjoy your 10+ manslaughter charges

>>31056360
-they arent as reliabil as other guns
-they have a too high risk of killing your owne family when you go in full retard mode
-they are overkill as fuck

>>31056915
>>31056966

I load 00 buck, slug, 00 buck, slug etc etc in my tube.

>>31057046
And unless you live alone out in the boonies or have giant bears roaming your neighborhood, that's retarded.

>>31056360
Saigas suck and VEPR-12s have no drum mags.

>Not having a belt fed full auto shotgun
How do you expect to survive in the metro without one?

>Jamaal, Tyrone, and Antoine break in at night
>magdump 30 12 ga slugs
>interlopers gasping their dying breaths
>walls are swiss cheesed
>house falls down, kills OP
>he was kind of a faggot anyway

>>31057158

My bedroom door is orientated to my laundry and beyond that is a clay bank that was dug out for the house, Im not going to be clearing my house I am going to be set up with my girlfriend in the ensuite bathroom on the phone to the police while I maintain a sight picture on the doorway crouched behind the bed.

>>31057300
Even if OP survived, he'd be permanently deaf.

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>>31057216
>VEPR-12s have no drum mags
Do what now?
>Plus the Max Rounds drum like in the OP are available for VEPR 12s they just cost $600+

>>31056360

Because shooting someone with an SBS with 30rd drum left loaded in anticipation of the first minority to walk through the door is a massive indicator of premeditation and youll be depicted as waiting with bates breath for the first chance to kill you get to a jury.

Break action double barrel. So benign that Joe Biden approved it as home defense. The only good idea.

>>31056360
>30 12ga. slugs
Max Round mags are 20 rounds.
>and for the Saiga they're 300£ form rusmilitary or 300€ from the source in the Czech Republic.

Unfuck yourself /k/omrade and get your information right.

>>31056966
>lethal force situation
>can kill a man with buckshot
>can't kill a man with slugs
Is it too lethal?

I really want one, but they all look like ass or commie weapons.

>>31056527
Wrong

>>31056360
The problem with box or drum mag solutions for shotguns is that plastic shells can deform over time and that can cause malfunctions. In a tube mag the force of the spring is applied parallel to the shell's walls and so it retains its shape. The higher the brass, the less likely this becomes so those are preferred for such detachable mag shotguns but then you have to deal with increased weight and cost.

For most people, the short distances within their home will prevent the shot from spreading out by the time it hits someone or something, effectively making them slugs and preventing that desirable spread of pellets which are supposed to hit many different vital organs all at once. In that case, firing an intermediate caliber rifle will be more effective and much more forgiving if you miss or fail to incapacitate on the first shot, since recoil will be lower and follow-up shots will be easier. Of course if your home is spacious, this part does not apply.

>>31057696
Stop spreading fuddlore, none of that muh premeditation shit is true, just shut up next time.

Weight and bulk you no guns fucking faggot

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>>31056360

Big, clunky and prone to jamming.

Why not get a double barrel 12 gauge aka the DP12?

>The DP doesnt stand for double penetration of target

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bOVOqccmw0

>unreliable
>heavy
>fucklong
>harsh recoil
>low capacity
I have a Saiga 12 and vepr 12, grabbing an AR first every time.

>>31056360
Wouldn´t something like a Benelli M4 be enough?

>>31057765
I think he is referring to over-penetration which could result in hitting other people.

Speaking of shotgun for home defense is it mandatory to SBS them and pay the 200 dollar ATF tax on an unleaded dog? Because I can't imagine using my shotgun for home defense instead of a pistol when it's so awkward to manuever round in hallways or through doorways.

Depends on of your insurance will cover the damage resulting from perforating your trailer home with large metal slugs

>>31057402
Liar. You're gonna take off all your clothes, smear period blood on your face and find your prey.

>>31058448
I tried searching this a few different ways but I had no luck. Can you tell me who it is in this picture?

>>31056545
>M4 action
>fixed stock with recoil buffer
>8rd stick mags
>comes with a vaguely SPAS 12 looking MLOK heatshield (and a plastic handguard fitting over it which comes in the box and is easy to mount)
MNNNNNGHHHFFFF

>>31057696
>I don't know what premeditation means or how it's interpreted or considered in regards to homicide and justifiable homicide
>I don't know anything about castle doctrine or court proceedings
>I sucked 20ft of cock on my way to this thread
>>>/g/
>>>/e/
>>>/t/
>>>/out/

>>31058597
You could go for those 14"bbl/26"oal 'Firearms' shooting shotgun shells but they lack a stock to avoid NFA regulation so they're not overly practical.

Maybe you could put a laser on it for Point Shooting but I can hear a thousand defensive experts groan loudly as I type that so consult one of them and see if he shouts expletetives at you.

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>not using a stylish o-u shotty
>muh capacity
>needing more than 2 shots

>>31058922
this guy...he knows his /k/

>>31057721
I count 26 loaded into
>>31057691

>>31056360
Because an intruder is not going to be more dead after I've blown a hole in his chest with the first shot.

>>31059457

enjoy clearing your house with a ten foot long shotgun

>>31058936
Antoinette Bejangles.

>>31059457
Biden please

>>31056360
More expensive and more heavy than pump action shotguns and semi auto, tube fed shotguns

>>31058448

I want a duck version of that. two 32" barrels in that platform feeding 3 1/2" shells

>>31059554
>extended magtube all the way
>load with Aguila minishells

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>>31059578
>Aguila minishells

>>31056360
Do you want to get shoulder surgery after every break in?

>>31056360
>Why aren't semiauto, high-capacity shotguns more popular as home-defense weapons? 30 12ga. slugs in a short span of time is a devastating amount of firepower, provided your drum doesn't jam.
It's called home defense, not home extended firefight against for some reason extremely determined yet for some reason un-armoured assailants.

If getting shot at by a handgun or rifle won't deter them going full spray spray spray will only tear up your place, shower the streets with shot and broken glass and not do much of anything if they really want you dead this much.

Also >>31056481
>>31056440 these.

>>31059732
>ow my hand, the post

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Why aren't semiheavy, high-meowpacity shotcats more popular as home-defense mammals? 30 12purr slugs in a short span of time is a devastating amount of meowerpower, provided your mammaries don't jam.

>>31058577
This

You don't want to kill Mrs. Smith across the street with your "poor man's .50cal" do you? She makes the best pie, don't kill Mrs. Smith.

Use Buck shot.

>>31059732
Hk33 kek

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this webm seems relevant itt

>>31059473
2 different drums.
The one in the OP is a MaxRounds 20 round (Also costs ~$600)
The one >>31057691 is an SGM Tactical 25 round drum. (~$100 but its almost all polymer so prone to breakage)

>>31060522
>hk40k

>>31057765
Yeah, it's okay to kill an asshole who tries to break in your shit to rape and pillage, but it's not cool to accidentally liquefy your neighbors and your neighbor's neighbors.

>all these people saying that they jam.

Where are proofs?

>>31058922
I checked and /k/eked

>>31059732
40k/10 would purge with..

>>31062213
It's not that they jam all the time but that they will jam when using certain types of ammo. Limiting yourself to just a few loadings and shell lengths, unlike pumps which can shoot most anything.

>>31058448
>that ugly mug
>perfection.jpeg

Shit taste anon

>>31062503
>but that they will jam when using certain types of ammo.
Confirmed for knowing nothing about the Vepr12, it will eat everything from super light target loads to hot as fuck slugs and buck.

>>31060038
Sweet mother of cringe you actually thought this was funny didn't you?

>>31059979
>It's called home defense, not home extended firefight against for some reason extremely determined yet for some reason un-armoured assailants.

So that's the secret to a home invasion.

Next time Im invading a home I'll do it in tactical gear. Would be fun.

>>31062503
It's your gun and your ammo. Why not just feed it what it likes for HD?

>>31059732
I broke my wrist looking at that

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>>31059517
She really does.

>>31062529
I don't like to admit I'm wrong on the intent but if a vepr 12 is half as nice as my vepr .308 I believe you.

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>>31058922
>anon is so masculine he can alter the female menstruation cycle to obtain period blood at will

>>31062540
No, I saw how dumb the OP was and replied in turn.

>>31062561
It's one of the best made guns I've ever handled, will definitely be my next purchase.

>>31057696
>having a big gun is premeditation
lmao not even in Canada is that the case

why are so many americans prone to spreading disinfo?

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>>31056360
because i still want my house when I'm done ????

>>31056360

Can I use one of these in 3-gun?

>>31060641
Source?

>>31056360
Is that yours OP, can you tell me more about that drum please.

>>31057216
>Saigas suck and VEPR-12s have no drum mags.
Saigas are fine, in fact they function perfectly after breaking them in. THEY WERE DESIGNED FOR DOUBLE AUGHT AND SLUGS NOT FUCKING LOW BRASS BIRD SHOT FUCKHEAD. You want to use pussy shells buy some pussy shotgun pussy.

I'm sofa king tired of people saying they don't work when the fact is they are flawless if used as they were designed to be used.
If you are some weak ass pussy who bruises easily and has to shoot lighter loaded shells buy an aftermarket gas plug and guess what... again it works just fine,
The Vepr is supperior though just not for that reason.
>>31057691
>>31061285
Fuck, I wonder if I can sell a kidney or something.

>>31064596

>gun can't use standard home defense rounds (birdshot)

>people testing it find it's absolute ass for home defense because of this

kek

>>31062732

because this board has been infiltrated by anti-gun shills, has been for some time

>>31064625
>Birdshot for home defense

Ishiggydiggydoooooo

>>31064625
Then they should have had a conversation with the person they bought the shotgun from and asked how it cycles different loads. I knew what I was buying so I never felt a moment of disappointment... but I research before I spend because I'm not an idiot.

It wasn't made for home defense. It was made to cycle 00, 000 and slugs as fast as possible.
Would you complain that you can't cycle 22lr through your fucking AR15? I know thats a huge stretch but is a reasonable question. The shot gun does exactly what it was designed to do right out of the box.

For a board that spends 30% of it's time talking about ways to modify their riffles you sure lose you shit when you have to buy an aftermarket gas plug. You're probably no guns anyway.

>>31056360
I load my Keltec KSG with 12 rounds of Aguila mini buckshot in one tube, 12 rounds of minislugs in the other, +1 in the chamber. So 25 rounds of asskick in a more reliable, lighter, shorter package than a semi-auto with a drum.

>>31059457
Two shots has been proven largely ineffective with three or more targets

>>31064556
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5QTFvnENRc

product is called the xrail (i think). Its basically a rotary mag that goes on the end of a tube magazine

>>31058448
Avatarfagging as a woman no less
Disgraceful

>>31056360
>>31057691
Does anyone posting OTT own either of these drums so we can get a real review of them.
>>31065426
Sorry you have such strong vagina envy fag but she has exquisite tits, and remember...no matter what you do you will always have the chromosomes you were born with. HAHA.

>>31065645
Drums for Vepr 12 and Saiga12 are vaporware. They don't exist so stop asking for info.

>>31057046
Honest question, why?

Do you think you are going to be attacked by people more then 50 meters away or wearing body armor?

>>31067077
>Do you think you are going to be attacked by people more then 50 meters away or wearing body armor?
why own guns at all with that logic?

have you seen all the rioting going on in dozens of cities.

in milawalki they have been targeting white people like crazy for years now go and google what happened at the state fair in 2015

if you aren't ready to defend you and you8r loved ones from an attack mob you are no more than worm food

i'm not even white and i can defend my home cause this shit is getting real

>>31056360
>ywn defend yourself with a Jackhammer
feels bad man

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>because this is a good idea

https://youtu.be/zxslOcJ9M3s?t=1m24s

>>31057901
This. New American Shotgun designs need to be made.

Even when it comes to pump guns, the only two major choices is a rem 870 or mossberg 590A1

Benelli has some great shotguns but are gimped due to import laws.

>>31058357
We need rimless shotgun shells.

>>31058563
Expensive, not many after market parts and a full tupe is near mandatory but then you have to deal with 992r compliance.

>>31067396
How can there be a legally owned full auto Saiga 12 in the US considering the first one rolled off production decades after the registry was closed? WTF is going ion here guys

>>31067448
its not his its the companies
an ammo company would have the required ffls for dealer post samples

>>31064596
>The Vepr is supperior though just not for that reason.
I wasn't aware of that issue Saigas had. I was just trolling as a VEPR-12 owner. On a related note I ran a few mags of target loads through my VEPR today to sight it in and it cycled them like a dream. To use a Hickokism the sights were "right on" out of the box, and the riser gave perfect cheek weld for me. New favorite shotty.

>>31067342
I wish that shotgun was real mate...only way I can see a webly revolver bullpup shotgun working, if maybe mapul makes it so the mags aren't too expensive...still six shots is kind of low...at least 8 if they can fit it.

>>31067077

It makes me feel more secure DESU. Kind of like why I have .308 not 5.56.

>>31064721
>Birdshot for home defense
OK superman,we all know you eat birdshot for breakfast, the rest of us are incapacitated by a torso shot of even #4.
>>31067472
>I wasn't aware of that issue Saigas had. I was just trolling as a VEPR-12 owner.
I own both and a bunch of other shotguns, from single shot break action, double barrel breaks, pumps and KELTEC and that piece of shit UTAS. Hands down the Vepr 12 is my favorite, it's just built like a tank.

When I bought my Saiga I was aware it wqasn't going to handle low brass bird shot shells with out that gas plug so I was never unhappy with it's function. All the drama here about it is just no guns and Vepr fanboi's talking shit. It works just like it was supposed to work out of the box. Outside of a couple of failures to cycle breaking it in I haven;t had a single problem with it other than I go through so many shells when we have it out destroying cans and refrigerators and cars and shit.

One of my favorite things is when we are shooting clays at my gun club. I love when some old fudd walks up and gives a disapproving look then has a change of mind about modern AK body shotguns after I tell them to give it a try.

Glad you enjoy your Vepr.

>>31064596

My Saiga ran fine on WalMart cheapbird

Just had to change the gas selector.

Boris was drunk on a few mornings, so some Saigas have two of their gas ports covered up and won't run low brass

>>31056360
>Criminal breaks into your house, intent on stealing your shitting 26 inch TV and maybe a laptop
>Unload with 12 12ga slugs in his general vicinity
>Results in criminal, tv, laptop, the window, most of the wall and the radiator of your neighbours car being destroyed
>Cost of TV and laptop= 600 dollars
>Cost of cleaning blood, brains, bone fragments and general detritus from living room = 1200 dollars
>Cost of new laptop and tv = 600 dollars
>Cost of getting neighbours car which you have just crippled fixed= 1500 dollars
>Cost of trying to explain to reporters how are wondering why you vaporised a man and most of the front of your home when you could have shot him twice in the chest with a pistol why you thought using a drum fed combat shotgun for home defence was a good idea = priceless

>>31056360
what is this rail extended/grip that is on this ak? Really liked it

>>31070815
◞ಠ益ಠ◟

>>31057300
>Still worth it

>>31056972

You're illiterate.

>>31071424
He's a patreot.

>>31064625

Birdshot is not the home defense standard.

>>31065645
>>31067025
I have the SGM drum for my Vepr 12.
Haven't had a chance to shoot, it, but it feeds just fine.
I do wish it had metal feed lips though...

>>31070815
>TV and laptop
>laptop and tv
>neighbours

GET OUT BONG. REEEE.

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>>31056915
>Implying I don't

>>31056440
I came here to say this because I feel like helping on a Cameroonian file sharing network site.

But seriously, after fucking around with Saiga 12's for a few years, it is very clear that the shotgun shell was not designed to be fed semi automatically.

>>31071519
>Birdshot is not the home defense standard.
I bet you think .380 is ineffective as well. Idiot.
>>31071533
>I have the SGM drum for my Vepr 12.
>Haven't had a chance to shoot, it, but it feeds just fine.
I have bad news for you, it is full of fail and frustration. Use graphite powder in between the plastic parts that stick and you will thank me later.
>>31072240
>But seriously, after fucking around with Saiga 12's for a few years, it is very clear that the shotgun shell was not designed to be fed semi automatically.
I can mag dump my 12 round sticks in less than 2 seconds every fucking time. Either you don't have a Saiga and you're posting lies or you fear the minimal recoil so much it fucks with your trigger speed. Either way you're a huge faggot and your mommy dresses you funny,.

>>31072626
>I can mag dump my 12 round sticks in less than 2 seconds every fucking time.
I'm sorry I meant to post 4 seconds and that is on target.

>>31071033
this!

>>31059732
Nice Ork Slugga.

What are the differences between a VEPR and a Sagia?

>>31072647
you're a big guy

>>31060641
What the fuck is that and where can I get one

>>31072626

>I bet you think .380 is ineffective as well. Idiot.

No, I do not think either is "ineffective"

But putting words into someone's mouth makes you look like a child.

.380 ACP and birdshot can be both be effective in situations in which they are reasonably used, but still, they are not the standard for what they do.

And no, just because you like something and it can work does not make it the standard.

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moderately related; why aren't single-fire shotgun pistols more of a common thing?

Like something like this but not single-use plastic

Sounds like it should be an EXTREMELY mechanically simple and fairly reliable and cheap effective self defense tool

>>31073134

They are.

Flare gun+Insert
Comanche .410 pistol

Etc.

>>31073134
Do you feel like paying for the tax stamp?

>>31073143
I know about flare gun inserts, I'm talking about more dedicated platforms.

Like if they made like non-plastic versions of the image I posted for like a hundred or two dollars each, I'd be all over that shit

I'm not looking for a shotgun pistol in terms of functionality, More interested in the novelty of it, it's not like I'd carry one of those instead of my normal cc. And as far as novelty goes, the flare guns + inserts don't really do it for me. It's too "improvised", it's not like 4 winds or zipgun improvised, but I want like a legit shotgun pistol for the sake of having one

>>31067025
>Being this noguns
Except they do exist, retard.
MaxRounds drums have been available for quite awhile and SGM finally got around to putting out their Vepr 12 drum.

kys my man

>>31072626
>I have bad news for you, it is full of fail and frustration
Proof?
Because this guy's runs just fine, except with some lower than recommended dram ammo.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9DvJTToEn_o

>>31056440
This, and they're much more expensive than a pump

Because reliability.

>>31073182
Rifle the barrel my nigga

>>31056481
Vepr?
Saiga?
Mossberg with mag conversion?
Random video game guns?

>>31056360
You don't really need a shotgun for home defence, a pistol or an smg would work just fine, but in case if you're in some legit deep shit, then an ar would work better.

>>31064625
>gun can't use standard home defense rounds (birdshot)
>>31064721
>Birdshot for home defense
>Ishiggydiggydoooooo
>>31071519
>Birdshot is not the home defense standard.
>>31073076
Birdshot is the preffered choice for men with families in a home. Pretending getting hit with birdshot is like getting slapped in the back is something a no guns underageB& says. Inside of 5 or 7 meters , the distance of almost 99% of home defense shootings, it's fatal more often than not. Maybe not as immediately as a slug through the head but it stop fuckers in their tracks while greatly limiting the chance of harming those living under the same roof.
>>31073367
No they don't "just run fine". You have to get out a file and a small torch and modify them. The average SGM never works just fine out of the packaging.

Just for fun, how many have you bought and used without fucking around with it anon, I'm betting exactly zero.
>>31073337
>MaxRounds drums have been available for quite awhile
For $650.00 fucking dollars? FUCK,

>>31073400
It's only a few hundred bucks extra, which is totally fine if you consider the capacity increase going from a front-loaded tube mag to quick swappable 8+ round box magazines or drums. Plus for the Vepr at least, the ergos are fantastic.

>>31076250
>how many have you bought and used without fucking around with it anon, I'm betting exactly zero

I only have 2, but they've both been fine without any modification or tweaking.
But the stick mags are not drums, so it's irrelevant how they function.

So why don't you show where the drums are "full of fail and frustration" because I posted 1 vid where it didn't.
Here's another one.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jFcNtz_EoRE

If it takes you any more than two 12g shells, then you need to invest in training, not weaponry.

>>31067448
dealer owned, not private ownership. who do you think sells full auto guns to the military and police? LAPD swat goes around buying 1970s era MP5s from private owners?

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>>31076412
I wouldn't be surprised about the LAPD in particular. Barrett told them to go fuck themselves when they tried to buy .50BMG rifles that California civilians weren't allowed to own.
>mfw

>>31076340
You can post all the video's you can find. Until you own a couple and can give an accurate re3view it's just entertainment. I womder why no one else on /k/ owns any of them. I'm just tired of shelling out a hundred here and a hundred there for products that don;t work with out me having to fuck around and void any warranty or retrun policy.
Yopu have no hands on experience so just fucking stop telling me how gtreat they are. They work after modifications and not everyone can figure that kind of shot out on their own.

It's nothing personal anon but just stop until you get a couple of those drums yourself.

I guess I could sell a few rifles or handguns to buy 4 or 5 of those MAXROUNDS drums for $650.00 a piece. Do they even sell them in the USA?

>>31076340
>I only have 2, but they've both been fine without any modification or tweaking.
>But the stick mags are not drums, so it's irrelevant how they function.
SO which is it...do you own the drums or not? Your reply was confusing at best, you sounded like a politician getting questioned in front of congress.

>>31056360
You expecting dinosaurs to invade your home? Werewolves?

>>31077751
If some of the urban unrest we have been seeing in a bunch of our cities started kicking on his front door he would probably have a home still standing in the morning.

>>31077751
Niggers on scaffolding. My building's facade is being redone and one woman already had to chase one away. I figure magnum 00 buckshot from point blank ought to knock them back out of the window.

>>31077751
Make sure to use inherited silver, rather than just garden variety silver. If there's a Loup-garou in your neighborhood, nothing else iss likely to bother it. Hexenwolves can be dealt with using your standard buck or slugs.

>>31078406
Dresden pls.

>>31078419
fine, use some silver coins you bought at the local pawn shop. I'll expect a letter of apology from your next of kin though.

>>31077751
>you don't NEED a gun like that
Feinstein shill plz go

For everyone wondering about the SGM Vepr12 drum mags, VEPR.ORG is 50/50 on them. A couple of the more notable trusted members hate them for what ever that's worth.

I'm going to roll the dice and buy a couple tomorow. I'll post a mini review next thread on this topic and I'll trip as above


>>31072916
I am beefy as fuck though skinny maqnlets out shoot me in the clay pit often enough. It's all about figuring out the best posture for each individual. I just shoot a real lot with the Vepr 12, I claim no magic genetic blessing just practice practice practice.

>>31076250

I never said it was like getting slapped.

I even said it can be effective when properly employed.

You really seem to have a lot of built up anger and tension.

It still isn't the standard, and you know it or you wouldn't be so upset. It doesn't come highly recommended, no acclaimed schools advocate it, it is not often professionally sponsored as the best option.

It can work, will work, and in some cases is a good option. I simply stated that it is not the standard.

You should quit being so inflamed. Talk to other men in the way men should speak or don't talk so much.

>>31073134
because thats a cap gun with a shell in it

>>31078724
>You really seem to have a lot of built up anger and tension.
Save that passive aggressive trolling for the newfags anon. I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion
>It still isn't the standard,
Well, yes it is or it was for as long as we have had shotguns. Truly rocksalt was the standard for defending home and property until after WW2, this is historical fact. Among the 130,000,000 gun owners bird shot is incredibly popular for home defense. It stops humans behaving very badly and limits risk to living things in the near vicinity.

Now I mean no offense here so hear me out before you take offense because when I speak of younger people I'm including myself in that group. You suffer from internetitis. That's when their is a group think or hive mind that consists of mostly younger people. Not that there is anything wrong with us it's just everything becomes Lord of the Flies. We develop one or two opinions and everyone who doesn't agree is a fudd or a troll. Like the great shitstorm over 9mm or .45acp.... when in fact anything from .380 and up does the job.

>>31078724
>It still isn't the standard
Let me ( >>31081081 ) try it this way.
Considering 4chan.org/k/ if made up of posters between the ages of 14 to 28 with a smattering of older and younger posters and a sizable potion not even owning or regularly shooting weapons, I doubt we have a firm grasp on what any standard really is.
We have lots of anons who know their shit and a real good handful of living breathing autistic human encyclopedias who know every last fucking thing about a couple subjects. But we hardly represent a large enough segment of the greater shooting community to decide what the standard is for anything. Maybe this explains my opinion better.

What shotguns do you own anon?

>>31057402
Just don't go full Oscar on the gf as she's in the en suite

>>31081081

>save the passive aggressive shit
>just trying to have a reasonable discussion

Right, that's why that was your first reasonable and mature sounding post. Because you're so reasonable. You've actually done very little to provide evidence for the case of birdshot being the standard.

Really, you spent almost no time on the subject before spinning an elaborate web of crazy-talk.

C'mon, guy.

>>31081081
>>31081137

>what shotguns do you own anon

Pre-cerb 870
Model 12
Mossberg 185D
Stevens single shot 20 gauge
>model 1100

>>31081434
I use my experience to form an opinion about home defense. I can see the bigger picture concerning gun purchasing trends over the last thirty years and see that hand gun ownership is five times what it was 4 decades ago. I also understand that until the beginning of the 1990's semi auto rifles were more of a novelty whether you want to believe that or not.
Just because we are in a generation that has basically grown up around AR15s and AK47s doesn't mean it was always that way. Can you understand this?
Do you understand that AR and AK style rifles make up less than 5% of weapons in the US? We think they are the most popular but we own damn near 500 million weapons and less than 25 million of these are in that category.
The same goes for hand guns. semi auto handguns didn't start dominating the market until the late 70's or more likely early 80's. Before that it was almost all revolvers, bolt action rifles and shot guns. Now don't act like I'm inferring semi autos weren't around for decades, I own a couple JC Higgins semi auto's I think my grandfather bought from a Sears and Roebuck catalogue sometime in the 1930's and my father owned one of those ridiculous "streetsweepers" that so many glorify with out ever having touched one IRL.
So that's how I set my standard. Most of America isn't even a fraction as gun savvy as this board, they're fudds and a super majority of guns in the hands of civilians are not semi automatic. Sadly we truly are a nation of fudds and that's why socialist anti 2A politicians keep getting elected.
>>31081446
I own 13 shotguns. From single and double barrel break actions, some nice pumps , both of the UTAS and KELTEC CoD memes, one Saiga12 and 2 Vepr12's. I shoot clays as often as possible. In a perfect world I would spend most of my waking hours shooting on the skeet range or playing with my AR10, HK 91 bought new by my father in 1982 making noise and smoke with tanerite

>>31081841

You literally haven't addressed the point in question once. Provide statistical or institutional reference to back up your "birdshot standard" or stop posting.

And yeah, I "understand" all of your irrelevant talking points. I've known all that shit, probably since you were pulling the tit.

They're still irrelevant talking points to the situation at hand. You did not meet the challenge and answer the call, anon.

>>31081916
>You literally haven't addressed the point in question once.
Neither have you anon.
>Provide statistical or institutional reference to back up your "birdshot standard" or stop posting.
Just as soon as you do the same but I won't hold my breath while you try because it's imp[ossible to prove it one way or the other. You're the one who started with "no one uses bird shot" so you first or you're just another troll from day/k/are.
I posted LOGIC because no one can PROVE one way or the other what most people use. It's simply impossible.
I used gun purchasing trends for the last 4 decades, so before the late 1970's almost all guns were outside of the semi automatic category and at the very top of the list were pump shotguns. They were the single most popular weapon in the US for 8 decades
Like it or not is is far more likely that shotguns are still America's choice for home defense and birdshot out sells both buckshot and slugs exponentially so do the fucking math
Stop pretending you, me or any other motherfucker can provide hard evidence either way.
Remember, I said birdshot is a fantastic choice for home defense.

Have a real nice day.

>>31082074

I never said nobody used birdshot, and since you first made the claim that birdshot is the standard, the burden of proof lies with you.

And no, neither of us said birdshot is a wonderful choice, so there ya go making shut up again.

You could've posted a picture of a gold drywall or gel test and I would have had to concede at least a little something.

I never even said it's a terrible choice, it's not the standard.

Pros:

>little risk of overpenetration of structure
>target will stop the projectile
>same smashing and crushing effect of most shotgun loadings inside of five yards

Cons:

>unable to effectively shoot people through objects
>can be partially stopped by heavy winter clothing
>individual projectiles lose speed and energy quickly should a longer shot be needed
>only 4-6 inches of gel penetration
>may not effectively cycle every firearm
>relies on the mechanism of all projectiles being clustered with the wad for any meaningful wounds

Birdshot will kill shit and kill it dead, you're talking to a guy who killed cattle with it. But to imagine that every shot in a firefight will be semi-static in an open and convenient space is a fool's game.

I'm a military guy, so maybe I look at these situations differently, but the inability to shoot through a door, door-frame, overturned hardwood table, appliance, heavy clothing, etc is something I won't sacrifice and neither will a lot of people. To base the entire HD SOP on the possibility that in all of the blank space of an American home a flyer might find its way into something else, a rarely recorded instance, is not so good.

If you're that worried, try a 5.56 with frangible loadings, providing more penetration than birdshot yet less than 12 gauge buckshot or 9x19 handgun loadings.

Now, feel free to counter, but know that ranting about the evolution of firearms ownership from the 30's onward is not an argument on this topic. I don't care about your grandfather's JC Higgins.

>>31082292
First of all, weren't you supposed to prove birdshot isn't the most common choice in home defense or are you going to pretend you weren't trying to bait me into proving something that can't be proven?

>>31082292
>you first made the claim that birdshot is the standard,
Nope, never said it was, just said it was logical that it was the most common choice given percentage of Americans who own shotguns as apposed to semi automatic weapons. Just because we as a group on /k/ prefer modern semi auto's doesn't mean the rest of the country comes anywhere near as close.
>And no, neither of us said birdshot is a wonderful choice
I did. I think it's a fantastic choice in home defense. If you believe a human being is going to take a blast of #7 to the chest at 20 feet and go about their business you're fucked in the head.
>You could've posted a picture of a gold drywall or gel test
YOU go and check out testing of birdshot under 4 to 7 meters and tell me how ineffective it is. Almost all home defense shootings are under 7 meters by the way. Birdshot close range is fucking brutal and has the benefit of not traveling through doors and walls thereby keeping the innocent safe which is icing on the cake.
>can be partially stopped by heavy winter clothing
>only 4-6 inches of gel penetration
As if either of these prove birdshot isn't a great choice when keeping your fucking family safe in the place where they are sleeping.
You're not very bright.
I'll choose #7 cycling through my Vepr 12 over all of my other weapons defending whats mine under my roof. You go ahead and use a deagle brand deagle and kill that neighbor who lives a half mile away anon. KEK.
>Now, feel free to counter, but know that ranting about the evolution of firearms ownership from the 30's onward is not an argument on this topic.
Bulklshit, it;s called empirical evidence which when used with deductive reasoning is completely worthy in drawing conclusions. It is entirely likely that the single most common weapon in circulation would be loaded with the single most common shell in circulation and used to defend the homes of those that own that most common weapon.
This is a logical and valid conclusion.

>>31056360
Do you have any idea how much 30 12ga rounds weighs? Way more than necessary and way more than I want to be stumbling around in the dark with when a white guy at my door goes boom boom crash at 2AM.

I do keep my Vepr-12 loaded for that reason, though, mostly because I think anyone crazy enough to not surrender or haul ass when it's pointed at them is probably on drugs and will need the eight rounds of buckshot to go down anyway.

>>31056360
Because unless you drop a fuck ton of money on them they are jam factories.

>>31082933

>People on drugs get +60 damage deterrence and require their limbs to be removed to succumb to gunfire

Go away dad.

>>31083070
Needing eight rounds of buckshot was hyperbole, anon.

>>31082798
>>31082819

Yup, you're 17-23, don't understand how these arguments work. You love to say that people said things that they didn't. All while addressing only half of my points and hitting the rest with 'no u'

So, now it's my turn to talk banter and bullshit.

Smart kid, truly, but you fly off the handle for little to no reason. I'm suspecting either rural isolationism, autism, cyclothemia etc.

One day, my blessed son. One day.

>>31082933
>Do you have any idea how much 30 12ga rounds weighs?
Oh FFS. So you're planning on a long gun battle in your home? I'm not going hunting an intruder, I'm getting everyone in one room after letting the intruder know he is risking his life or if I can get off a clean shot wounding him. Are you planning on grabbing a chest rig for multiple reloads?

Learn something about home defense situations, that is a big part of being ready for the unknown. In almost all, not most but in almost every single fucking home defense shooting there are less than 4 shots fired unless someone magdumps into a body on the floor already. In around 97% the intruder runs for their life after the first shot and in most cases where the intruder has decided to arm themselves the homeowner dies. The startling truth is if an intruder decides they will shoot anyone in the way of them stealing what they want in a home invasion it ends in their favor more often than not.
Again, please don't use the average /k/ poster as a baseline for the entire country. The few hundred of us here who own and practice with weapons are ready to successfully defend our homes with firearms, the vast majority our fellow citizens are not. Most of the rest of our country are fire arms illiterate and hardly of ever practice with their weapons if at all. Do you understand the implications of this?
You're drawing conclusions about the public at large from your experience here or the time you spend around active sport shooting enthusiasts...from how much time WE spend with our weapons. Most people buy a gun, shoot it once or twice and then put it away until they need it which is almost forever in the gun case considering the numbers of gun owners compared to home invasions.

>>31083289

This is not true, studies conducted yielded that in the majority of cases in which a homeowner was armed they were victorious.

Why don't you learn something and then stop posting?

>>31067025
really? they use to sell them at walmart.

>>31083306
The NRA has blocked all official studies involving gun violence. Where's your source?

>>31083412

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt

This provides less in overall gun statistics but more in complete and wholesome invasion, violence and confrontation statistics.

>>31083106
>Yup, you're 17-23,
No, older.
> You love to say that people said things that they didn't.
Never did any such thing, I said what I said and you said what you said.
>All while addressing only half of my points and hitting the rest with 'no u'
Three times I have explained why I believe shot guns are the most likely weapon of choice in home defense. I use logic and harness empirical data, a long accepted way to draw conclusions. Take our acceptance of many of the laws of physics which we can't prove by duplication.

You have posed NO argument at all. You haven't posted anything to that says I'm wrong. Neither of us can prove it with hard data but simply looking at the kind of guns Americans own and the most popular ammunition for the most popular weapon it's LOGICAL to conclude birdshot is the likely choice for the majority.

If you can't grasp that you are the one suffering from rural isolationism, autism, cyclothemia etc.

>>31083306
>This is not true, studies conducted yielded that in the majority of cases in which a homeowner was armed they were victorious.
I didn't state oitherwise
I posted "In around 97% the intruder runs for their life after the first shot and in most cases where the intruder has decided to arm themselves the homeowner dies"
And that's true. In about 3% of home invasions the intruder is armed and doesn't flee at the sight or sound of a gun and armed the intruder ends up on top most of the time. This if an FBI statistic and up until 2014 they were the most honest source of crime statistics we had. Now they are compromised.


You confused how many home invasions are quelled fast by the armed home owner compared to a hardened criminal who is ready to kill.

I know guns save lives. Everyone in my family is trained to defend themselves with firearms and I try and sway people who don;t think it;s a viable option. My points still stand. Way to many gun owners are not ready to defend themselves, are you arguing that point?

>>31083412
>The NRA has blocked all official studies involving gun violence.
Provide citation or you have failed at correcting the record.

>>31083673
They lobbied to get Congress to block the CDC from performing it, because the CDC was letting their own anti-gun biases cloud the research beyond all hope of getting useful data out of it.

>>31083706
The law merely prohibits the CDC using its budget to advocate for gun control.

The CDC determined this meant they cannot study gun violence at all.

Really tells you something about their mindset and how unscientific it really is if they really see no difference between study and advocacy.

>>31083660

I literally never said shotguns weren't the best. Friend, your autism is palpable. Anyone who can read can tell you went off on a thousand tangents, mostly unrelated, every time I replied.

You
Are
Confused.

You are the master of the rant.

I yield to your overabundance of useless words, your "experienced assumptions" and your inability to focus. I change my diagnosis, looks like severe ADHD.

>>31058357
Would solid brass shotgun shells work better?

>>31057046
00,00,00,00,00,slug,slug,slug,

File: jackhamma.jpg (13KB, 400x141px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 400x141px

because nobody produces a jackhammer

File: 1455058849792.jpg (362KB, 1500x890px) Image search: [Google]

362KB, 1500x890px

>>31062529
I have a VEPR12 with CSS Copy of MOLOT GK01 Brake,

They LOVE everything high brass and powerful. When I just pulled it out of the box after I bought it before giving it a good cleaning or polishing anything it did have trouble eating the super low brass, low power target loads. It would fire them but had the occasional FTE and the action would bite back down on the shell sideways.

The recoil even with slugs is not unlike regular 7.62x39 AK. Giant muzzle brake does a very good job at controlling rise for rapid fire shots.

can still be had for sub 1k but they are drying up very fast as Russian imports are banned now....

Pic is not mine but that gun is the reason I bought one.

I love mine as well. Its even more fun than my AK. Department of wildlife officials that babysit a state range I was at were very interested in it, apparently they had never seen one before.


Let a older guy at the range that day shoot it and he walked away with a big smile and giggling.

>>31083070
False assumption. Did you even read any of the Posts here by owners of semi automatic shotguns?

Semi auto shotguns are unreliable.
Shotguns in general, regardless of what your nogunz friends say are inferior weapons to rifles. Yes, even for "cqb" or whatever you like to call fighting in close confines.

Take an already inferior weapon, make it less reliable, there's no wonder why no one uses them.

>>31083673
>The NRA has blocked all official studies involving gun violence.
>>31083706
>They lobbied to get Congress to block the CDC, who are a leftist agency from performing it.
Good on the NRA from stopping an agency filled with appointments from President Obama from using lies and half truths to smear gun rights.

>>31086191
Shotguns are superior weapons for not blowing my ears out and simultaneously putting a bullet through my neighbor's bedroom wall.

I'd rather be shot by a, say, .223 or 7.62*39 than a 12-gauge filled with 00 buckshot.

>>31086191
Rifles in general, regardless of what your mallninja friends say are inferior weapons to shotguns. Yes, even for "cqb" or whatever you like to call fighting in close confines.
>look mom, I can make dumb unsupported assertions too!

I have no idea why you think semiautomatic shotguns are unreliable nor why you think "no one uses them." Semiautomatics are more common than pump-action in sport shooting, and even the US military uses the M1014.

Could you perhaps explain and give reasoning, like an adult, why you think a shotgun isn't a suitable enough weapon for "cqb"? (and why the scare quotes?)

>waaa the evil NRA won't let us prove how bad guns are!
I can't believe /k/ommandos are unironically parroting this liberal talking point even though it's exactly as true as any other liberal talking point, i.e. NOT AT FUCKING ALL

The CDC has examined guns on numerous occasions since the "ban" (which only banned advocacy for gun control, because A FEDERAL FUCKING AGENCY SHOULD NOT BE USING OUR FUCKING TAX MONEY TO ADVOCATE FOR A POLITICAL CAUSE).

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm
Like here, they found insufficient evidence to support the effectiveness of ANY gun control laws. They literally could not demonstrate through statistical analysis that any of these actually work:
>Bans on specified firearms or ammunition.
>Restrictions on firearm acquisition.
>Waiting periods for firearm acquisition.
>Firearm registration and licensing of owners.
>"Shall issue" concealed weapon carry laws.
>Child access prevention laws.
>Zero tolerance laws for firearms in schools.
>Or any combination of the above

One of the biggest reasons why is that the studies done on gun control almost always suffer from poor methodology, i.e. because they're usually being carried out by leftist fuckwits who want to arrive at a predetermined conclusion.

Oh, and the "ban" was overturned by executive order in 2013, which directed the CDC to study gun violence. Their preliminary findings, found here:
http://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/1#R1
found several things that don't fit the narrative:
>Armed defenders are less likely to be injured in an attack
>Defensive shootings are at least as frequent as criminal shootings
>Both mass shootings and accidental gun deaths are statistically insignificant fractions of gun deaths
>Gun control laws, as previously found, cannot be clearly demonstrated to actually work
>Gun buybacks don't work either
>The "gun show loophole" doesn't account for much if any crime
>Suicides are twice as common as homicides and inflate and distort the numbers

>>31087404
tl;dr: Stop unironically parroting lies spread by fucking liberals who want to take your guns. Don't let them spread their "the evil NRA won't let us prove guns are evil!" bullshit.

The ONLY thing the CDC was banned from doing in 1996 is advocating for gun control. At the time, their head of gun research, Dr. Mark Rosenberg, quite literally stated that he wanted to ban guns. Direct fucking quote:

>“We need to revolutionize the way we look at guns, like what we did with cigarettes. Now [smoking] is dirty, deadly and banned.”

That is the sort of leftist fuckwit that the CDC puts in charge of research and their own fucking behavior and bias - not corruption, not the NRA, not a conspiracy, but the CDC's own behavior - is why Congress told them to knock that shit right the fuck off and stick to the fucking facts. They interpreted this to mean they can't study gun violence at all, because they are literally incapable of neutrality. And no, I do mean *literally* incapable - not when their staff is appointed by a president who will simply replace them or ignore their findings until they get the soundbyte they want.

>>31087404
>>31087467
GIVE THIS ANON A COOKIE

File: 1284642247330.jpg (72KB, 400x400px) Image search: [Google]

72KB, 400x400px

>>31087467
>Dr. Mark Rosenberg
>(((Rosenberg)))

>>31057696
>Because shooting someone with an SBS with 30rd drum left loaded in anticipation of the first minority to walk through the door is a massive indicator of premeditation and youll be depicted as waiting with bates breath for the first chance to kill you get to a jury.
Only if you live in a shithole.

Shooting a person breaking into my home is 100% legal in my state if i have reason to believe they will use ANY unlawful force, and is expressly NOT an unlawful use of force on my part.

>>31076470
I would love to see gun companies get together and tell every single government organization trying to buy full auto weapons to fuck off until the Hughes Amendment is removed.

Too bad we won't because of contracts and whatnot.

>>31081081
protip:
The 9mm vs.45 shitstorm is a very real thing outside of the internet, as are the people who shit on .380.

Price, reliability, and simple safety. Also if you've ever shot a shotgun inside you quickly understand why less may be better when you gotta fix the drywall.

>>31081081
>thinks 9mm vs .45 is an internet meme
Kinda showing your age here, /k/id.

>>31074277
Then it's a DD if it's any common chambering above .410. ATF gonna fuck up your fun any way they can.

>>31056527

Fuck off retard.

>>31083826
>>31087467

They're the Center for Disease Control, they only care about public health measured in deaths and hospital visits. They don't get to make value judgements about individual freedom.

More cars = more automobile accidents
More guns = more gun violence

I'm not a gun control advocate but it's not exactly a difficult fucking link to see.

If you asked the CDC if increasing the drinking age to 25 would improve public health then their answer is probably to be yes.

>>31089423
That is not at all what they were doing. If the freaking head of the CDC's gun research group outright stating he wishes to ban guns doesn't tell you something, then literally nothing will.

Your flaw is you're assuming government agencies stick to their strictly defined and constitutional duties. They do not. Before 1996 the CDC really did engage in anti-gun activism.

>>31057696
In stand your ground states, you can kill anyone who comes on to your property without your permission. You are assumed to have feared for your life and most states require prosecution to apply to a judge before even prosecuting you. Drug dealers who have executed rival drug dealers have got off under stand your ground laws, they are pretty rock-solid.

>>31089817
You're wrong in pretty much every respect.

SYG is just "no duty to retreat from any place you have a right to be," as opposed to "No duty to retreat from your property" (castle law) or "duty to retreat" (liberal law). It means it specifically does NOT refer to you being on your property, and in any case, it still requires a shooting to be a legitimate case of self-defense.

You are not just "assumed" to have feared for your life, and the police are generally the ones that make a judgment, usually on the scene, as ot whether it seems like a SYG case. If it doesn't, then the police have every right and reason to arrest you.

There's enough misinformation - and deliberate disinfo - about what SYG is and does. Liberals use this confusion to attack our right to defend ourselves in public. Please don't add to it.

Expensive as fuck.

>>31089923
You are wrong, however it's not as clear cut as I made it. Applications of castle doctrine and stand your ground actually vary between states. Florida's stand your ground law is as expansive as I noted, and the expansive interpretation only applies if you're within a dwelling or car (not anywhere you can legally be).

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

In Florida, a person is presumed to have "held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself " when someone unlawfully enters their dwelling or car. Under Florida law, in such a circumstance they can kill the person legally.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=776.012&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.012.html

Also, any attempt to prosecute a person claiming self defence in Florida has to go before a judge before it is begun, and the judge has to rule it has a reasonable likelihood of success.

I know that laws similar to the Florida one exist in Texas and many other states. So, essentially, you are wrong in just about every way. Keep it up with the fuddlore, kid.

>>31089991
The condescension is a nice touch, but you moved the goalposts.

SYG is no-duty-to-retreat. Florida might ALSO have a law stating that shooting an unlawful entrant in one's dwelling or car is presumed to be defensive, but that doesn't mean that's what Stand Your Ground is.

You started out talking about stand your ground states and then switched to talking, specifically, about Florida.

Again, people are confused enough about SYG that we don't need more people claiming idiotic things like "SYG is a license to kill!" and so on.

Oh, and [citation needed] re: drug dealers use it to execute rival drug dealers

>>31090202
>SYG is no-duty-to-retreat. Florida might ALSO have a law stating that shooting an unlawful entrant in one's dwelling or car is presumed to be defensive, but that doesn't mean that's what Stand Your Ground is.

The terminology varies. Laws enabling home defence, like Florida's law allowing you to kill anyone who comes on to your property (Texas has a similar law), are often bundled up in across the board 'stand your ground" statutes passed by legislatures.

>Oh, and [citation needed] re: drug dealers use it to execute rival drug dealers

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/drug-dealer-used-stand-your-ground-to-avoid-charges-in-two-killings/1235650

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/florida-stand-your-ground-law-yields-some-shocking-outcomes-depending-on/1233133

https://www.propublica.org/article/five-stand-your-ground-cases-you-should-know-about

Etc. And note quite clearly they are talking about Florida's STAND YOUR GROUND law, because that's where the law changes giving people an automatic presumption of fear of death originated (in addition to removing the duty to retreat in such circumstances).

You are spreading fuddlore and making the law out to be more restrictive than it really is.

>>31090298
>Florida's law allowing you to kill anyone who comes on to your property
*anyone who ILLEGALLY trespasses on your property

Are you spreading disinfo intentionally at this point? It's still not a license to kill. That's dumb liberal horseshit.

>>31090314
The truth is liberal horseshit? And yes, obviously, anyone who trespasses on your property.

Why are you so mad that you didn't undersand the law?

>>31090320
Btw, I FULLY support expansive stand your ground laws. Fuck criminals. And I never said a single thing about a "license to kill".

>>31090320
I would've continued, but you were already wrong just by claiming it's a license to kill anyone on your property. For starters, they have to be there illegally.

Secondly, you DO have to reasonably fear for your safety. The law merely puts a burden on prosecutors to prove you weren't acting in reasonable fear for your life. That means you can't shoot, say, Jehovah's Witnesses who come to your door, even if you asked them not to before and thus they are technically trespassing. You can't shoot a kid who chases a ball into your yard. You're still entirely wrong to make lurid claims like "Florida's law allows you to kill anyone on your property!"

And "u mad?" is the response of a troll. I already explained that I'm correcting you because this misinformation is used by the anti-gun left to attack our rights.

>>31090320
> He thinks he can shoot a cop who walks on his property

>>31090345
>And I never said a single thing about a "license to kill".
>>31090298
>Florida's law allowing you to kill anyone who comes on to your property
>>31089817
>you can kill anyone who comes on to your property without your permission.
You didn't? You didn't state anything about the law giving you license to kill anyone on your property, repeatedly, even after being corrected?

License, in law, is formal permission to do something. Are you, or are you not, saying that Florida's law gives you permission (license) to kill anyone on your property?

>>31090346
Slightly true with a few provisos. Firstly, Florida's stand your ground law also states:

>A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

Which is another hurdle to prosecuting someone who shot dead an intruder. In practice, no prosecution even clears the first hurdle of trying to get a judge to agree to let them go ahead with the prosecution.

>>31090347
Florida law has an explicit provision stopping you from killing a police officer who does that.

In terms of me saying the law allows you to kill anyone who comes on to your property, yes, I should have been more explicit and said anyone who trespasses on your property.

>>31090356
The man is an idiot anon. Let him be. When he finally does shoot someone for walking their dog by his mailbox , he will be put away.

>>31090367
Also, you claimed

>You are not just "assumed" to have feared for your life,

You are.

>YG is just "no duty to retreat from any place you have a right to be," as opposed to "No duty to retreat from your property" (castle law) or "duty to retreat" (liberal law).

Incorrect. Stand your ground laws are often more expansive than this, as I proved.

> the police are generally the ones that make a judgment, usually on the scene, as ot whether it seems like a SYG case. If it doesn't, then the police have every right and reason to arrest you.

Again, totally wrong. They must go before a judge first.

You've been moving the goal posts, now you're going on about a "license to kill". I never said anything about a license to kill. I've comprehensively debunked all of your arguments and points.

>>31090367
Can you shoot a kid who chases a ball into your garage, and claim it was self-defense?

After all, isn't he presumed to have hostile intent?

>If yes
Then no. No, you can't.

>No, you can't
Then you cede there are limits, even if it requires a prosecutor to actually argue "No reasonable person could have interpreted this situation as a defensive threat" to a judge, which means you were wrong to claim you can "kill anyone who trespasses on your property."

>>31090372
>Stand your ground laws are often more expansive
How is "only on your property" 'more expansive' than "any place you have a right to be"? You're all over the place.

>>31090372
>I never said anything about a license to kill.
see >>31090356
You used synonyms of the word "license," and that's all.

>>31057765
You're only allowed to use ammunition that leaves something a little bit dead

>>31087539
Every contract gets renegotiated sooner or later.

>>31089817
"Stand your ground" may be different in other states, but in Nevada, you are only protected by it if the court decides that it was reasonable for you to use lethal force.

You can't just kill someone that breaks into your home. They have to have the ability and the opportunity to cause you severe injury or death, and they have to engage you before you can legally shoot them.

>>31091679
Castle doctrine in some states means you can legally execute anyone who breaks in to your home.