Why don't world militaries use hollow points in their assault

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>>31015729
1899 Hague Convention, Article IV, Section 3.

>>31015729
Expanding ammo was banned by the 1899 hauge convention.

>>31015729
>Expensive
>Reduced barrier penetration
>Reduced effectiveness against armor
>Muh laws of land warfare

>>31015729
Western military doctrine is to take as many combatants out of the battle while expending the least amount of ammunition, hence the 5.56.

A 5.56 will still make you dead but it's not as likely to make you dead as a higher caliber round which has better dead making capability.

If you hit and severely wound someone with a 5.56, you'll likely take 2 or 3 men out of the battle, as his friends will want to make sure that he doesn't get made dead.

>>31015758
To be fair, teddy Roosevelt never signed it because he was too fucking based to let the eurodumbs dictate how he was going to fight wars. (Though we used full patch bullets then anyways and continued to do so under his presidency).

>>31015813
>To be fair, teddy Roosevelt never signed it
That's true, but I never claimed that.

OP asked why "world militaries" don't use them. Not why the US doesn't.

>>31015767
of which the greatest warmongering nation is not a signatory

Better to seriously injure than kill. Takes more enemy manpower to deal with a wounded soldier than a dead one.

>>31015775
Exactly this. Plus military fuddlore of hollowpoints jamming up yo problem solver

>>31015796

This is bullshit

>>31015796
>A 5.56 will still make you dead but it's not as likely to make you dead
>>31015836
>Better to seriously injure than kill.

Get the fuck out. When will this fuddlore die?

>>31015796
>le designed to wound

It's not even designed for that, .223 is meant to put down suppressive fire so the support and marksmen can get the actual kills.

>>31015796
You are all kinds of ass backwards.


Military doctrine is to expend a massive amount of firepower to get fire superiority. Hence why we use 5.56mm over 7.62mm for service rifles- a soldier can can and effectively fire more of the smaller round.

>5.56mm was designed to wound

Still believing this in 2016 is disgusting. It was designed to be easier to fire rapidly while retaining "combat accuracy". The point is to put more rounds, more accurately down range, because in combat conditions that's the better way to ensure a hit on the enemy's CNS and put them down for good.

>>31015729
Because it violates the Geneva Conventions.

>>31015758
First post, correct post.

People didn't really understand terminal ballistics 100 years ago. The made a treaty based on faulty information because terminal ballista as a science wasn't really around. Nobody in a position to try to change it cares enough about it to do so, largely because they don't know anything about any of this.

>>31015836
Doesn't matter, we still active in accordance with it and are treated the same, as if we did. We are de facto bound to it even if we never signed it.

>But Muh OTM!
The specific wording is "designed to..." OTM bullets are not specifically designed to cause a greater wound channel, it's purely incidental. Yes, America is that legally obtuse.

>>31015887
>>31015915

I didn't say it's designed to wound retards, I just said that it's more likely to wound than larger calibers. which benefits you if you DO happen to wound the enemy, because you've effectively taken 3 men out of the battle.

>>31015972
The US uses straight up hollowpoints for limited applications, but they keep it kind of quiet just because of public relations reasons. You're right that we are de facto in accordance with these treaties, and have to keep a mind towards them even if we legally aren't puns by them.

Because for some reason nogunz think hollowpoints are the fucking devil.

>>31015915
This sounds correct.

5.56 is easier to shoot rapidly semi automatically and still maintain good groups. Its like the difference between doubletapping with a 9mm or a 10mm.

>>31015992
You're repeating the myth about wounding being a consideration for adopting the round and you know. Please stop with the whole "muh three enemies out of the fight" when talking now about military adoption of rifle rounds.

5.56mm was adopted after post-WW2 studies and Project SALVO showed that higher amounts of effective suppression allowed a military unit to control the fight and more effectively manuever, which allowed them to better kill the enemy.

if a guys dead his buddies continue but if hes injured you have a bunch of guys calling for medics and they to help him and shit and get slowed down is what my dad says

I'm getting the feeling this whole thread was bait to use for posting low effort fuddlore about 5.56mm.

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>>31015758
Doesn't apply to America or the countries that didn't signed it. Otherwise, our our troops wouldn't be issued Mk. 318 Mod 0/Mod 1. Also our boys are being issued 9mm hollowpoints for their service pistols as well

>>31016010
As of 2009, there were no "hollow point" rifle rounds in DoD supply chains, and no DODIC was assigned to any such round. OTM rounds, such as the Mk262, are not considered hollow points, even though they are for all intents and purposes.

>>31015729
More expensive to heal your wounded then to bury them, simples

>>31016069

OTM ≠ hollow point.

>>31016071
I was speaking about handgun rounds, just FYI. Like you said though, limited use and even stuff like OTM is not really talked about widely because retards who think hollowpoints are worse than white phosphorus.

>>31016039
(And after the US bullied the rest of NATO into accepting 7.62 as a standard round, then backed the fuck down when they were proved wrong the way everyone else said they would be)

>>31016090
As far as I can recall, only base MPs were to be issued hollow point 9mm rounds. I'll have to flip through my Yellow Canary to double check though.

>>31016042
...NO, if a guy is injured you have his buddies trying to clear the area for medevac.

And he can quite possibly still shoot you anyway.

And if you win the fight and they leave him, you now have to provide care for him.

>>31015796
Or just use the MK19 and take everybody out.
" I'm here to fuck shit up"
Thump,thump,thump,thump

Hollow points in rifle rounds are intended specifically to shift the center of mass backwards and improve the ballistic capabilities of the round in flight. They don't function like hollow points in pistols generally. You use soft points or frangible ammunition in that regard.

>>31016039
Not him but when I was in training in the British army, we were taught that we adopted the 5.56 mostly because of weight, but secondary to that, that it does indeed take at least 2 men out of the fight, 3 is pushing it but 2 at least.

And it wasn't just some porky Lance Corporals opinion, this we were often told this by older NCOs who had been around during the days of the SLR and real fuckin' NATO.

Even spoke to some Royal Marines who had been in the Falklands in 3 Commando at Faw who swore by the 5.56 being better at ending the battle quickly, far less deaths per shot expended, but still closing with and killing or capturing the enemy.

Still, all this about fire superiority is probably because yank riflemen can't hit fuck all outside of 200 metres and need to lay down two thousand rounds of ammunition everytime a raghead pops out from behind a wall 300 metres way.

>>31016144
meant who had been in the Falklands AND at Al Faw

>>31016144
I've had senior NCOs tell me that the blast wave from a .50 cal will rip somebody's arm off and that Navy uniforms turn orange in salt water.

The military is a breeding ground for stupid rumors perpetuated from troop to troop. Don't believe any of that shit without documentation.

>Ragging on Yanks.

Well, firstly 5.56mm was adopted when we were thinking about force on force, not asymeterical combat. In that, fire superiority is what allows your force to move around and thus win.

This is the basis of infantry tactics by every military since the 1940s. You can't tell me the Brits don't use fire and manuever tactics.

>>31015915

>still believing this in 2016 is disgusting

If this is true then we would have started adapting our guns to use 5.45x39 ammo, that way we could even take their shit and use it.

Also 5.7x28 when?

The AR-57 holds 50 and the ammo is abit lighter than the 5.56.

If you're talking about more hits, lighter recoil, more ammo then 5.7x28 has a decided advantage against 5.56mm.

>muh range
>muh armor piercing

Dude if you're shooting past 200 yards forget about it, thats DMR range these days.

Also there are non-standard 5.7mm AP rounds which will go through a vest and aren't even considered AP (moly coated I believe).

And if you want barrier penetration talk to the guy with the DMR.

>also 6 Round Burst when?
Because thats a 3 round burst with a 2 round sprocket added to it.

Now you have no problems with full auto eating up your mags, but yet its still useful.

>>31016411
>Dude if you're shooting past 200 yards forget about it, thats DMR range these days.
>200 yards is what the Army thinks is DMR range nowadays

Holy fuck I hope you're trolling.

Even brits are expected to fire accurately to 330 yards with their rifles.

>>31016071

What about the brown tip stuff? That's Barnes TSX 70gr, and also laughable to call an OTM round.

>>31016411
There is not going to be a change in ammunition calibre until there is a complete change in standard issue rifle.

How many M4s and other 5.56 guns do you think the US and the rest of NATO have, and how much do you think it would cost to replace not only every single one of those, but also the literally trillions of rounds stockpiled all over the world?

>>31016185
>I've had senior NCOs tell me that the blast wave from a .50 cal will rip somebody's arm off and that Navy uniforms turn orange in salt water.

My autistic brother-in-law told me that exact myth about .50 cal. Took him about 5 seconds of critical thinking to realize he was wrong.

>>31016411
Yes, nobody is expected to engage past 200 yards, that's why most M4s are sporting ACOGs these days, right?

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>>31016411
>200 yards
>DMR range

You must have parkinsons or something

>>31016514
Probably wasn't around in 2009, which is when I got out and no longer had access to things like TAMIS or MILSTRIP requests.

>>31016079
No

Was just looking up hague/geneva convention stuff.
Oddly enough it looks like Canada never signed almost any of it. Even less than what America agreed to. Only the whole "declare war before attacking" part.
America should just keep Canadian loan units around to man flamethrowers and do stuff they aren't supposed to.

Seriously! Just picture it...
>"ah shit, hajjis really holed up in there good"
>"better call McKenzie"
>big beardy guy in combat-tweaked EOD suit wanders into the building with a flamethower and mustard gas grenades
THE BEST PARTNERSHIP EVER? I THINK SO.

>>31015878
Agreed

>>31017511
But a thermobaric rocket is better...

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>>31015729
>Why don't world militaries use hollow points in their assault rifles?
They do. Mk 318 and M855A1.

>>31015992
>I just said that it's more likely to wound than larger calibers.
According to tests of .223 during it development studies it did more damage and was more likely to inflict lethal wound than .308 up to 300 meters range. It was one of the reasons why it was adopted.

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>>31017573
But it would be less fun.

No wait, belay that. We should keep that plan in our pocket until the day we fight wars in space. Then watch the world collectively "wut" when an American rover rolls up, disgorges a guy with Canadian patches, who proceeds to release biological agents into their station's ventilation systems.
That'd be a hoot!
Like this guy but weaponized.