EUROFIGHTER VS. F-22 RAPTOR

Eurofighter vs. Rafale is a much better and longer discussion.

I would say F-22 raptor because of it's stealth technology and better high speed

F-22 has clear advantage unless it somehow reaches wvr and then it only has a small advantage

Rafale vs Eurofighter is much more better

the rule of thumb - anything american is always better because even if it is shit americans dont fight not having an overwhelming advantage so even shit works better than good stuff of their enemies

Whats better, an F-4 Phantom or an F-14?

>why even ask the question, OP?

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>>30955528
wat

>>30955540
americans always cheat

>>30955830
There is no such thing as cheating in war.

>>30955398
>Who would win in a serious aerial combat and why?
Those, who had AWACS support.

>>30955404
No what isn't long? The 'long range' missiles on the Rafael. 50km bvr missiles, seriously?

Typhoon wins every time.

But the raptor definitely has a massive edge in Bvr against a typhoon, meteor may balance it slightly for the typhoon.

>>30956034

It's been tried. Even AEW&C-supported air gets BTFO against VLO fighters.

>>30955850

Someone find the copy pasta of the Admiral/General can't remember who played an exercise in Japan and during the simulation he managed to sink a carrier by using not conventional methods to call fighters on it and then 'mmurica went full butthurt resetted everything ordering him to use up to date methods to call shit on them so they could intercept communications and win the battle

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>>30955398
It's one overpriced mistake against the other overpriced mistake.
The one that has a lucky day with lesser bluescreens will probaly have a forced landing second

>>30955398
lol why do you pick the austrian ones in the picture? they have like 5 jets or something

>>30956126
Go back to writing jazz, Sprey.

The F-22 takes off and its pilot dies of CO2 poisoning. The Typhoon takes off and crashes because its badly welded engine fell off. The US claim a decisive tactical victory.

>>30955539
then again, those planes had/have very different roles

>>30955398
It's an unlikely scenario to begin with.
Just dog fighting F22 probably comes out on top because of better guns and vector jets.
Long range it will highly depend on radar and missile technology. Stealth is a meme. As soon as you have outbound communication everyone knows you are there. Most modern radar stations will pick up stealth so if you have ground support or AWACS it's game over.
Probably the worst thing is thinking you are invisible, when you are actually in the crosshair.

>>30955528
american technology is average at best

>>30956344

>>30956061

>>30956061
sauce?

>>30956367

War is Boring, an outlet better known for being liberal defense reformer shills lying and misrepresenting so hard that they resemble rabid autism dogs in their lust to prove that the F-35 is a "duck" or whatever the current reformer meme is. They simmed a flight of Su-35s vs F-35s in various scenarios and the F-35s tore ass.

>>30956061
if stealth is so kickass why did they build eurofighter/rafalae in the first place?

>>30956379

since nobody can see stealth fighter maintaining them fly worthy is a pain,somehow bees get stuck into them,other times the mlg fails,pilots are getting suffocated cause they can't properly locate the invisible oxygen hose,also windows sometimes causes an unknown error while crossing above invisible time zones.

Thats why they built the Efa,after all russian AA can negate invisible planes so making something that pricey which can't "bee" seen is just a waste of honey

>>30956444
This is the ghost of robin williams.

>>30956364
See the trouble with stealth is, it is hard to upgrade. The shape of a plane can't be changed and the paint is pretty expensive too.
Radar on the other hand works mostly by software, so changes cost next to nothing and can be quickly deployed.

Now it's like with the enigma. If you break stealth you won't tell your enemy until they burn and dive.

So if you go to a fight, do you arm to your teeth or do you go naked hoping nobody will notice you?

I just leave this here. http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-space/article/2001-12/stealth-threat

>>30956491

Your English tells me that you are a literal vatnik.

>>30956507
Well I'll be damned son, how good is your Russian?

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>>30956491
>Radar on the other hand works mostly by software

>>30956379
Yeah, why didn't they skip from Spitfires and BF-108s to F-22 copies?????

>>30956371
how do you sim such a scenario when you don't really know how effective that stealth thingy really is

>>30956357
>the country that invented powered flight, reusable spacecraft, the transistor, the PC, the Internet, stealth aircraft, and nuclear bombs
>average at best
This is weak bait.

>>30956568
> wave return time is recorded by hand with a stop watch
> distance calculations are done by preschoolers
HAHAHAHAHA

And J-20

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>>30956615
>>powered flight
Herni Giffard, french
>>reusable spacecraft
economic disaster, couldn't find inventor, probably american
>>the transistor
Julius Edgar Lilienfeld, Austria-Hungarian
>> the PC
Conrad Zuse (German) and Alan Turing (England)
>> the Internet
Tim Berners Lee at CERN (Europe)
>> stealth aircraft
Pyotr Ufimtsev some Russian mathematician
>> and nuclear bombs
Johann von Neumann and some otherGermans

> This weak bait.
triggered by the truth

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>>30956629
>My twisted cassegrain radar could totally perform the same functions as an AN/APG-77 given the right software

>>30956702
>claims theory is the same as engineering
Confirmed know nothing

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>>30956733
You must be forcefully trying to be that dumb.
Without a computer your mighty AN/APG-77 is basically a twisted wire.

>>30956112
fucking kek

Burgers confirmed for not only sour losers but shit at tactics and strategy

>>30956790
If I had ever said they don't use computers, you might have a valid point.

Signal processing is important, but a radar's utility is not "mostly software".

We clear now, sperg?

>>30956784
"nothing" is a strange way to spell history

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>>30956112
>>30956791
The thing is that the guy doing the opfor simulated ripple fire of P-700 Granit missiles from Cessnas and small inflatable rafts. Each missile weights several times more than the craft that was supposed to carry it but that didn't stop him from simulating that they could carry several of them. He also expended more missiles than was ever produced of that sort but whatever, right?
His "motorcycle couriers" traveled the speed of light which also was a bit odd.
In short, he fucked up an exercise and they had to redo it because some fag wanted to play C&C.

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>>30956801
I thought you coundn't say anything dumber, but you just keep talking

>>30956112

The OPFOR was commanded by a retired American admiral.

They reset the simulation because they had another week on the clock to run the exercise and wanted to give the captains and crew a chance to train.

The only real mistake was the decision to try to cover the whole thing up. Which, when it went public, pissed off the public because they thought the tactics were smart, too.

>>30956444

underrated post

>>30956330
Naval?

Nope. Both were interceptors. There is a reason the F-4 was known as a lead sled, the F-14 however could dogfight better.

The only real difference was that they were a genoration apart, just like the EF and the F-22.

>>30956937
Ripper did cheat though. Not by using unconventional tactics, but by breaking the laws of physics.

Furthermore, he broke the sim because the ships in the sim were completely unable to defend itself from civilian ANYTHING. Ships, missles, etc.

>>30956702

This is epic bait.

>Herni Giffard

True, he had a steam-powered airship. The wright brothers invented heavier-than-air powered flight.

>reusable spacecraft

Correctly admits that it was American. We're talking *invented*. Herni Giffard's airship wasn't an economic success either.

>transistor

Lilienfeld didn't invent the transistor, he invented the concept of the transistor. He was an American citizen, though he was born in Austria-Hungary. A working transistor was invented 20 years later, also by three Americans.

>Zuse and Turing

The PC was first invented by Pier Perotto of Olvetti, an Italian company, but was marketed to governments and businesses, not the public. Arguably, therefore, it was a microcomputer but not a PC. The first PC marketed to the general public was the Altair 8800, invented by Ed Roberts (he hired a kid named Bill to write a BASIC interpreter for it; Bill incorporated as a company called Microsoft to fulfill the contract).

Zuse built the first programmable computer, ie the first mainframe. NOT the first PC. Turing invented many key concepts in modern computing, but never built a personal computer either.

>Tim Berners-Lee

The word "internet" covers a lot of ground, but basically you're wrong. Berners-Lee invented the WORLD WIDE WEB. By that point the Internet had already existed for nearly two decades, and hypertext had been around since the early 60's (invented by Americans Doug Engelbart and Ted Nelson, and first conceptualized by Vannevar Bush, also American).

The Internet's predecessor, ARPANET, was a US government project invented by Americans. The Internet itself is usually considered to have been created with the invention of TCP/IP by Vint Verf and Bob Kahn, both Americans.

The other big internet foundational technologies are the C programming language (invented by Dennis Ritchie, American) and UNIX (bell labs, Americans).

continued...

>>30957148
Not him, but pretty fucking good.

He is destorying that kid at every point.

>>30956702

>Pyotr Ufimtsev

He came up with the concept of stealth, but didn't actually invent the first stealth aircraft. That honor goes to the team at Lockheed, which created the F-117.

>Johann von Neumann and some otherGermans

Not true either, rather obviously in this case. Von Neumann was born in Hungary, but became an American. The proposal for the atomic bomb came from Albert Einstein, also an American (and also a Jew, incidentally). The Manhattan Project team was almost entirely American (some immigrants, others native born, again mostly Jewish).

Maybe your confusion about germany stems from the fact that it was originally supposed to be USED on Germany? The allies won in Europe before the bomb was ready, but it still saw use against Japan.

>>This weak bait

So basically you got nearly everything wrong. In some cases, really, really stupidly wrong. You were *technically* correct about Giffard and that's basically it.

If you ever get far enough in your education to study at University, I recommend going to a superior American institution, where you can learn all kinds of useful things.

>>30956702
>> the Internet
Tim Berners Lee at CERN (Europe)
tim invented the world wide web
the internet was invented by DARPA in the 60's

>>30956791
>>30957008

Well, ok, but you see my point. Americans getting BTFO by other Americans says a lot of things, but it says nothing about how we measure up against other countries.

I suppose the attempted cover-up might, but wasn't the guy who was at the top of the chain of command at the time born in Kenya?

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>>30957166
>>30957173

>>30957150

Thanks, but all it took was a general familiarity with history and willingness to spend a few minutes verifying my facts. The kid wasn't even willing to put in a few minutes hard work. Which is sad because he's got plenty of free time while germany subsidizes his unemployment.

>>30956702
>>30957166
>Pyotr Ufimtsev
>He came up with the concept of stealth
This is actually debatable. Robert Heinlein, who was somewhat a lay-man, accurately described radar stealth geometry in a book he wrote 5 years before Ufimtsev published his paper. The theory was around long enough for a lay-man to hear about and accurately describe the concept, so the claim that Ufimtsev discovered the concept likely false, he was just the first to publish an academic paper on the theory.

>>30955528
Pretty much correct. The US Does not like to engage a hostile without an overwhelming advantage. Its reasonable. There are no fair fights in war.

>>30957216

Ahhh! Thanks for the correction. OK so the concept is American as well as the invention itself.

>>30957008

Is there the article or not?

On the cover up things that I've saved I can only find the tricks used by serbians to ef up with the allied force during the war in Bosnia, some articles of the battle in a FOB on which soldiers complained about M4 reliability and how the higher ups didn't gave so many fucks about them, nor who was in charge of base security had an idea of keeping certain vehicles apart to prevent mortars and rpgs to fuck up with both and some other forgotten stuff

>>30955398
depends on the used weapon i guess.

>>30957216
The germans got a stealth fighter prototype in ww2
So i guess they were the first building one


Funny Part:
Muuuh He lived in the US he was a american even if he was born in germany (for example Einstein)
.......

Fuckin mexicans you never be murican even if u born here

>>30957277

fuck me that serves me right for ignoring wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002

but for sure I had something better saved

>>30956044
>But the raptor definitely has a massive edge in Bvr against a typhoon, meteor may balance it slightly for the typhoon.
>Non-stealth having an advantage against Stealth in BVR
lolwut

>>30956702
>Tim Berners Lee at CERN (Europe)
Without ARPANET, TCP/IP, Ethernet, HTML, and other pre-existing American technologies his WWW protocol is meaningless.

>>30957360
Retard detected

>>30957376
Your meter's detecting you, buddy.

>>30957376
American made core internet technologies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_protocol_suite
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_Name_System
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertext

Tim Berners-Lee built WWW and HTML off pre-existing American tech and code, go suck-start a leaf blower.

>>30957411
Didnt deny that faggot

But is a plane not an invention bc the engine was already invented? It is still one... You cant say boooho he could do it bc we invented stuff first... He did it and not someone else... We arent sucking ötzis great grandparents cocks because their fire making skills made this world possible

>>30957411
>>30957391
>>30957376
>>30957360
>>30957111
you nerds need to goto >>>/g/

>>30957449
He added a new capability - that somebody else would've figured out if he hadn't. This is more like adding a radio to a car than solving powered flight.

>>30957231

NOBODY likes initiating an offensive operation without superior numbers. The 3:1 ratio is almost universal throughout modern doctrine--it's not exclusive to Americans.

>>30956379
The Eurofighter and Rafale began development well before the ATF competition, not to mention how close the US was holding its stealth card to its chest.

>>30957008
FUCKING PROVE IT

TIME AND AGAIN YOU KEEP MAKING EXCEEDINGLY SPECIFIC CLAIMS THAT "OH VAN RIPEN BROKE THE LAWS OF PHYSICS" WITH HIS OOB (WITH LIGHTSPEED MOTORCYCLE MESSENGERS AND SPEEDBOATS WITH STYX'S HEAVIER THAN THE SHIPS THEY WERE ON). THE ONLY "SOURCE" ON THESE EXCEEDINGLY SPECIFIC CLAIMS IS SOME ANONYMOUS BLOG COMMENTER. WHERE IS THE PROOF?

>>30957111
>>30957166
I see you spend a lot of time on this. Your cardinal mistake is, you need to find inventors before the thing was invented, not after.

So of the seven things claimed to be invented by Americans, only one thing is actually an American invention.

>>30957297

Everyone who I noted as being American was an American citizen. Most had lived in America for well over a decade before their inventions. I note foreign-born Americans as such.

>The germans got a stealth fighter prototype in ww2
>Napkin waffen

The Ho 229 was a bomber, not a fighter. Two prototypes were built: the V1 was a glider, the V2 was the first powered (non-stealthy) version. A third prototype, the V3, supposedly incorporated stealth features but was never completed.

>>30957449

Moron said that Berners-Lee invented the internet. The internet was already nearly 20 years old when B-L invented the web. Also, I didn't want to get too geeky, but the Web was an enhancement of Gopher, invented in America by Mark McCahill.

That's like saying John Carmack invented the PC because he wrote a program that runs on it.

>>30956548
Good point, since he's posting on a russian board. Oh wait...

>>30956845

Any sauce on this? Every time I've tried to find details i just get articles about lol dumb Americans get btfo and cry like babies and cheat.

I can never find actual articles or details on the shenanigans of millennial challenge.

>>30958301

As I said somewhere I have it,once there it was a page and probably was linked on MP too,which addressed the mess ups and cover ups done by burgers during wars and exercises,sadly the kikes running MP reported it and took it down.

So as long I don't find the copy pasta or the saved web pages the only tl:dr is on wiki see

>>30957313

>>30957616

from 38' mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqgfjXaJxV8

It was stealthy,not that much but if it went in production in time and with numbers probably they had a chance to hold USAF bombings for a little before getting btfo by nukes or the commies

>>30957602
>Fucking prove it

Before the internet, my friend.

Truth of the matter is, you are not flying termits off of anything without supporting infinstructer to do it. By his own words he was using FACs (speed boats) and converted pleasure crafts to do this.

>>30957183
>>30957277
>>30957313
>>30957602
>>30958301
>>30958711
>>30959856
Bunch of years back, like 2004-2006ish there was a lot of supporting documents on military public sites showing how Rippers actions were completely out of line with the scenario (it was a data link/integrated forcenet exercise) and included impossible usage of weapon systems, deployments and message systems (motorbike fiasco after his "super unbreakable morning prayer encryption" was called out as bullshit). The reviews also included how due to the exercise contraints and goals being about force integration and not defensive fleet maneuvers, most of the defensive capabilities of the CBG were not simulated or part of the exercise.

As military likes to do to save money, they purge their shit after a couple years so all this supporting documents for something they didn't consider that important were removed from the web.

Now what a lot of people don't ever bring into the equation is that Van Ripper was working as a consultant for a Defense orientated group and if I remember right, fairly high up on the companies roster. So while the Military had no reason to keep the after actions around, Ripper and company kept blowing up his "results" well after the military moved on to further cement his position and "ingenuity".

>>30956491
>do you go naked hoping nobody will notice you?
>what is missile bays
b-but guise i know about planes!

>>30956790
>Radars use SOFTWARE to calculate wave return time
>what is FPGA's
>what is signal processor hardware

Just stop.

>>30956344
>Stealth is a meme.
>But every major military in the world is either procuring, designing or building VLO aircraft.
>Because it is a meme.
>Like radar, the jet engine, A2A missiles, laser/GPS munitions guidance, AWACS-integrated datalink, etc.
>No well equipped military needs any of that shit either.

>>30956607
VLO technologies have been in service longer now (since 1983 in the US) than jet engines were in Vietnam. Think about that for a minute.

>>30956491
This poor Vatnik. His superiors tell him to go over the top, and he goes over the top with no weapon, no information, only to get clubbed in the head immediately like a baby seal.

>>30957544
But the US is literally the only country on earth to field combat aircraft in the numbers required to apply this ratio against any air force in the world in a strategic sense, and the logistics to get all those planes in theatre and flying against the OPFOR in a tactical sense.

>>30957216
He came up with the maths to model it out. Before his contribution stealth was a trial-and-error thing.

>>30962312
>He came up with the maths to model it out.
But there was no effective way to actually model it in any applicable way so the Soviets completely ignored him. Basically, he had the theory but none of the practical application, which was where the real investments, infrastructure and research had to go to make it a practical reality.

Meanwhile in the US,
>Modern stealth aircraft first became possible when Denys Overholser, a mathematician working for Lockheed Aircraft during the 1970s, adopted a mathematical model developed by Petr Ufimtsev, a Soviet scientist, to develop a computer program called Echo 1. Echo made it possible to predict the radar signature of an aircraft made with flat panels, called facets. In 1975, engineers at Lockheed Skunk Works found that an aircraft made with faceted surfaces could have a very low radar signature because the surfaces would radiate almost all of the radar energy away from the receiver. Lockheed built a model called "the Hopeless Diamond", a reference to the famous Hope Diamond and the design's predicted instability. Because advanced computers were available to control the flight of even a Hopeless Diamond, for the first time designers realized that it might be possible to make an aircraft that was virtually invisible to radar.

>>30955398
ur mum is the best

>>30964637
/thread

>>30964637
kek

>>30956044
This is what deluded brits actually believe.

Meanwhile, in the real world, EF never won on the overall, in any serie of engagements against the Rafale, wether it's BRV or WVR.

If it had, with the level of arrogance, butthurtness and hypocrisy these trolls show on a daily basis, you would have heard about it, and there would be dozens of videos to back it off.

>>30957111
>The wright brothers invented heavier-than-air powered flight.

No they didn't. They did a synthesis between sustained-powered flight and maneuverability though controlled

Heavier then air self propelled flight was demonstrated 13 years prior by Clement Ader with the Eole in 1890. The Wrights didn't invent anything, they followed the teachings of Octave Chanute (a french naturalised US citizen who had read books written by Ader himself) and still had an engine with an inferior power to weigh ratio than the steam engine Ader used on the Eole.

The flyer wasn't able to take off by itself, it was catapulted. Only when it was fitted with a french-made engine and two pairs of wheels (reminder the wrights were bicycles makers at first but did not fit wheels on the flyer by themselves, it says a lot) did it started to break some records (longuest flight etc) at the time.

Ask the National air museum, they'll tell you the rest. They may have zero patience for patriotards with a superiority complex though.

Wrights bros = nationalist meme pushed for political reasons in the US. Especially since 2003 > Iraq war > muh country > muh terrorism > muhrica

Meanwhile, the archives mentionning Clement Ader researches were sealed for 99 years.

There are those who brag.
And there are those who just do.