Geiger Counters

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welderbro here, my shop generates thousands of pounds of scrap metal and I haul it to the local scrap yard, theres someone working there who walks around the trailer loads with a Geiger counter.

Makes me feel like I'm in DayZ or some shit! Anyone know whats commonly scrapped thats radioactive? At least in the US?

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What you have pictured there isn't a geiger counter, if you're looking for an old Civil Defense geiger counter what you want is a CDV-700.

However they're huge and heavy and not very sensitive. For serious use you'd probably want something like a Gamma Scout:
http://www.gammascout.com/

>>30917650
Industrial radiographer here, Geiger counters and ion chambers would be pretty shit in a "SHTF" thing tbqf senpai. For one they are pretty delecate, and can become damaged if overionized, two they require calibration which you pretty much need a facility to do. You would be better off getting a Personal Dosimeter.

>>30917650
>I've never seen a thread about Geiger counters

Probably because they're not weapons.

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>>30917697
always a general danger, probably the highest threats are from medical equipment and college research scrap

>>30917719
this, get a dosimeter

>>30917698
Well what actually counts geigers then? I'm a newb

>>30917785
>Geiger counter is a dosimeter
Nope, a pocket ion chamber is a dosimeter, TLDs, OSLs and film badges are all dosimeters, a geiger counter is simply a survey meter.

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>>30917785
Miss read thought you said a geiger counter is a survey meter my bad. have a reconciliation butt

>>30917816

A Geiger counter uses a Geiger-Mueller tube to detect ionizing radiation. The thing you posted uses an ion-chamber which is much less sensitive and only detects the kind of radiation levels you'd see from nuclear fallout.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXwIzOalFo8

>>30917816
Cant tell it trolling or not, but ill answer anyways since i just spent months studying this shit. Geiger-Mueller counters are just named after some shit german scientist.

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>>30917887
accepted, i have an old bendix family radiation meter to use in the event of nuclear accident

>>30917933
No I just don't know shit about nukeler radiation. But I think most of /k/ would be remiss if they did not invest in one.

>>30918000
Checked, and I went to school with a CWI who built his own "tubes" not sure how accurate they were or exactly what they were. Crazy fucker even brought in a calibration source he claimed was some daughter of Uranium to class.

>>30918055
Naw m8 theyre shit, I can answer any questions you got but like i said they make nice reliable digital PDs, if that isnt good enough the good ol PIC is always nice, still needs calibration tho.

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>>30918055
make your own out of tin foil.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kearny_Fallout_Meter

>>30918055
>I think most of /k/ would be remiss if they did not invest in one

Probably because you've played too much Fallout. In the US you're more likely to get struck by lightning than shot and you're more likely to get shot than die of radiation poisoning since MAD has pretty much ensured that only ragheads with dirty bombs will ever use nuclear weapons and even then that'll probably just fuck up part of a single city.

Okay so what would be the best device to get to detect lethal radiation in the aftermath of a "nearby" nukeler attack

>>30917697
Trying to avoid something like this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goiânia_accident

>>30918131
Do you know the lethal dose? because if its lethal your geiger counter aint picking it up.

>>30918131
Lethal dose is around 500 Rem, which is like an insane amount if you know your shit.

>>30918131
There are so many variables to this question. Are we talking 1950s era devices? Modern airburst device? Are you looking for contamination after a dirty bomb?
The Alpha, Beta and Gamma sources are all very different in the threats they pose.
If you're sticking around anywhere that could be a threat, chances are you've already inhaled enough material that you're going to have a bad time.

>>30918197
This. for instance a Geiger counter cant measure Alpha radiation which is 20x worse then gamma, but Alpha cant get through your jacket.

Really makes you think huh?

>>30918131

you know what works better? going in the opposite direction of a nukaler attack

>>30918243
that shit gets in your lunges thats how it gets ya

>>30917650
*survey meter

>>30917650
I manage transportation and disposal of nuclear materials. If MAD were to occur you'd be best to follow hygiene instructions instead of trying to use a dosimeter. Just purify your water and eat canned food until someone can tell you different.

I own a few East Bloc Geiger counters and radiation detectors. My favorite is the DP-5V, it has a massive adjustable range and a cute little faux leather case to lug it around in.

>>30918850
/out/ was talking about new Sawyer heavy metal filters.

>>30917697
Some steel has less amounts of radioactive particles in it. Very valuable. Common source is ships that sank before 1945. Used for Geiger counters

>>30917697
Nuke plants nearby, probably. During outage, they scrap a shit ton of pipe, and they're supposed to make sure that the hot stuff goes somewhere it can't hurt anyone. Accidents happen, and every now and again something decently radioactive can worm its way away from where it's supposed to go. Not really hot, mind you; we're talking about sub-level 1 percon.

>Mine's in the shop.

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>>30917650
Health Physicist here. First thing to realize is anybody who does "X" generally has knowledge that applies to "X." So, some advice is gonna be overspecialized.

Bear in mind, there are no "reasonably priced" options that are accurate, rugged, and inexpensive. A CDV-700 is respectable, but won't give you ANY indication until you've already got a problem, has no built in audible indication, and it tops out too low to be useful in a true radiological emergency area.

You're looking at thousands of dollars for what you want. From what you've described, I'd recommend a RadEye B20 or B20-ER. They'll pick up beta, some gamma, and a little alpha, and use AAAs. They're very sensitive, and very useful. FLIR also makes a line of "pager" units that are great for gamma. A Fluke 451P is very rugged, uses 9Vs, and can pick up even low level backgrounds, but can't detect beta or alpha. A 451B can pick up beta, but is less rugged, and can't detect as low.

>>30917719
No, you need something that can produce an exposure rate, not just give you total absorbed dose. RadEyes and Fluke 451s can do both.

>>30918243
So a decent gas mask could protect from that?

>>30919220
Yeah you idealy need all that shit im saying that the average /k/ommando dont need anything other then a dosimeter desu.

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>>30917785
>this, get a dosimeter
Be VERY careful with this advice OP. The most commonly available self indicating dosimeters are NOT robust, and they can't give you an exposure rate. You have no idea how much radiation any given object is giving off, until you've lingered next to it long enough for your dosimeter to rack up a big tally. There are electronic models which also give an exposure rate, but they are not very sensitive, and are inaccurate at low levels.

>>30919268
Alpha particle radiation can be stopped by paper m8 so yeah.

>>30919287
What protects from gammer and beta?

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>>30918078
>the good ol PIC is always nice
They're shit. They break easily, drift too much, and can short and go off scale for no apparent reason, even after passing QC checks with flying colors.

The fact that the Navy still uses them is more an indictment of the Navy than it is a recommendation of "SIPDs". Go digital or go home.

>>30919220
What's your opinion of the NukAlert?

http://www.nukalert.com/index_a.html

Of course, these don't give you any dosimetry ability, or any differentiation between radiation types.

I wish Radioisotope Identifiers would come down in price (SPIR-Ace, etc), I'd love to personally own one.

>>30918165
What level is high enough to cause permanent damage?

>>30919304
dense shit like tungsten steel DU lead concrete.

Also Time Distance Shielding combo is your life.

>>30919322
Youre not wrong man, i'm just saying in the context of some one prepping for shit they are good for a laymen to learn quick.

>>30919337
Hard to say, that depends mostly on the radiation and area dosed, around 100-200 Rem is "fug" worthy

>>30919363
So a hazmat suit that has lead in it would be a good purchase?

>>30918149
>Do you know the lethal dose? because if its lethal your geiger counter aint picking it up.
This statement is not true. Someone's over thinking here.

>>30919304
From gamma, either distance, minimizing your time around the source, or a shitton of shielding. Beta, polyethylene. Low atomic number materials. Lead is bad. A beta passing through lead will give off x-rays. Put poly before the lead.

>>30919273
I'm saying that a regular dosimeter is worse that nothing in most SHTF scenarios. PIC/SRD/SRPD, whatever you call them; if it doesn't give an exposure rate, all it's giving you is a false sense of security. This isn't point source radiation here, it's loose and fixed contamination, plus skyshine.

>>30919411
Well not necessarily, even half-value layers are dependent on the radioactive isotope. If youre in an area with Co-60 just dont even bother with wearing a shit load of lead just get out is the best course of action. Some of the shittier isotopes like DU are only harmfull to your lungs really since they emit more alpha then anything.

>>30919443
Geiger counters saturate and give false readings all the time its why we need to keep at least 2 working ones when handling a source

>I'm saying that a regular dosimeter is worse that nothing in most SHTF scenarios. PIC/SRD/SRPD
yeh i see your point

>>30919332
Interesting, but I wouldn't pay $160 for it. Looks like it doesn't give you any indication until you're in a 100mR/hr field, which is a very considerable dose rate.

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>dat radiation

>>30919532
Shit damn what is that? Thats metal.

>>30919411
>So a hazmat suit that has lead in it would be a good purchase?
That would actually be more dangerous than a suit without lead. The amount of lead that a person could still carry would not offer any meaningful amount of shielding, but would convert betas, that would otherwise be shielded by the suit, into x-rays, which would not be.

>>30919363
>Youre not wrong man, i'm just saying in the context of some one prepping for shit they are good for a laymen to learn quick.
I've still gotta disagree. I don't think they'd have any use outside of an environment where they can be babied, they can't identify sources of radiation, and even worse, they don't accurately respond in a beta environment. They're fine for nuclear power clean areas, or in industrial radiography, but in a contaminated environment where fission products are present, you can't trust 'em.

>>30919561
Its radiation in a cloud chamber

>>30919283
so using a dosimeter and a watch you can't calculate your exposure rate?

>>30919561
It's uranium in alcohol vapor

>>30919583
Fair points sir. what would you say to OP then?

>>30919604
Not really because it doesnt really show the fluctuation associated with shielding and distance. Other anons have pointed out my folly theres no real cheap way around Rad safety in SHTF prepping man.

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>>30919583
Then what the fuck is a man supposed to do to defend against alphas betas and gammers?

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>>30919287

technically the alpha radiation you need to worry about is being emitted by tiny particles of fallout (strontium-90, cesium-137 and iodine-131) which are readily absorbed by the body. you get cooked from the inside out.

>>30919639
if you keep a steady eye on it you can tell if the rate is going up or down, enough to tell if a basement is relatively safe for the night

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>>30919471
>Geiger counters saturate and give false readings all the time its why we need to keep at least 2 working ones when handling a source
That's because you use ridiculous fuckhuge sources that are insane in any other context. Goddamn, I'll never forget the pictures of the guy that stuck one in his back pocket. In any other context, someone using a RadEye, Ludlum 3, etc, is going to see that count rate screeching up, and is going to GTFO before the tube can saturate.

Holy fuck, there are some of these for under $1k on eBay. Delicate head, like you said, but probably my favorite of all time. http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/251979947831?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_ref=http%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay.com%252Frover%252F1%252F711-117182-37290-0%252F2%253Fmtid%253D1588%2526kwid%253D1%2526crlp%253D53601919689_324272%2526itemid%253D251979947831%2526targetid%253D185498843049%2526rpc%253D0.13%2526rpc_upld_id%253D74330%2526device%253Dm%2526mpre%253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ebay.com%25252Fulk%25252Fitm%25252Flike%25252F251979947831%25253Flpid%25253D82%252526chn%25253Dps%2526adtype%253Dpla%2526googleloc%253D9002297%2526poi%253D%2526campaignid%253D239125209%2526adgroupid%253D14978428809%2526rlsatarget%253Dpla-185498843049%2526gclid%253DCPeyuZ-is84CFclZhgodsBoOLw%2526srcrot%253D711-117182-37290-0%2526rvr_id%253D1074018531264&ul_noapp=true

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>>30919664
for alpha radiation, wear protective gear (like a p100 respirator) and don't eat or drink anything that might be contaminated.

for beta and gamma, put a lot of stuff between you and the thing emitting it. that can be either dirt, concrete, lead, or similar. also don't walk around outside during a nuclear attack.

>>30919600
I love watching cloud chambers. They need to show those in high school.

>>30919664
Its simple anon, with Gamma, and X-rays you need more then just a thin layer of lead to sheild you as >>30919583 pointed out, in face in radiography we often use lead as a means of intensifying hard x-rays and filtering out soft ones, just remember Time, Distance, Shielding

Substantial amounts of concrete and steel, the real heavy shielding like DU and tungsten is impractical to seek out, those are your best bets for the rays

Beta can be stopped but it takes more then just the piece of paper that it does for Gamma, Alpha should really be treated more like an airborne hazard because that shit will fuck you up, one R of Alpha particles = 20 Gamma rays

>>30919684
mhmm

>>30919704
Depends on the dosimeter anon-kun

>>30919705
We use fresh Co-60 on the north slope SON. Crank that shit out and every once in a while it will fuck up your survey meter if youre retarded.

>>30919730
But I thought lead made x-rays?

>>30919639
>Fair points sir. what would you say to OP then?
Expect to spend a lot more than you want to to get anything that's useful at all.

>>30919664 This >>30919730, plus stay the hell outnod Dodge. Run a lot.

>>30919746
see>>30919738
It can intensify x-rays if youre using a high enough Kv but x-rays are not emited by isotopes sugar tits gammas are.

>>30919705
So those are the best to use to detect alpha beta and gammer?

>>30919766
Cant detect Alpha or beta most of the time only the Electromagnetic rays

>>30919770
So what should one get to detect gammers?

>>30919664
bunker down, tape and plastic wrap all your windows, doors, vents, anywhere air can get in. stay inside until the fallout calms down. wear full nbc gear when you do have to go out, then decon shower before you go back in. get a meter of some type so you know which areas to avoid depending on your budget. beyond that, wait for your hair to fall out.

>>30919746

that's only if someone is shooting an electron beam (from like a particle accelerator) right at you, basically.

also might have to worry about neutron activation, but if you're close enough to the blast for that to be an issue, you're probably dead anyway.

>>30919738
>fresh Co-60
>on the north slope
Nope. Nope nope nope nope nope. Fuck that shit. Don't mind me, I'm'a just be down here in my nice little Agreement State. Didn't the NRC just rape Mistras up there for not even bothering to post 2mR/hr barriers?

>>30919792
And alphas come from nukeler missiles?

>>30919797
Happens all the fucking time man i'm not surprised

Acuren fag btw.

>>30919746
Lead makes x-rays if it's struck by betas/electrons. It's called Bremsstrahlung radiation. If you put poly before lead to shield the betas, and then back it with lead, you're golden.

>>30919806
Why must you abuse out knowledge you silly anon.

>>30919816
So a plastic suit with lead in it?>>30919823
Where do the alphas come from?

>>30919834
New radiographers meme
>where do the alphas come from

They are helium nuclei without electrons they tend to come from Uranium and her daughters.

>>30919770
>Cant detect Alpha or beta most of the time only the Electromagnetic rays
Not true at all. "Pancake probes" detect betas better than any other form of radiation, they can also detect some alphas (not nearly all; 1 or 2%), and they are not great at gammas and x-rays (10-20%), but they're good enough.

Pancakes are great for labelling an airborne contaminant as Radon gas, if there is no other possible source of alphas. Simply get a count rate on your sample, slide a piece of paper between the sample and the detector and the sample, and count it again. If it goes way down, it's alpha. If there is an atmospheric temperature inversion outside, you have your answer.

>>30919859
Uranium is nukeler missiles right? Or is uranium what they put in EMPs?

>>30919868
Wait are you serious? All I have to do is keep a pancake with me?

>>30919868
Iv literally never used a pancake probe in my life good to know i guess.

>>30919875
They tend to put Pure high grade activated aluminum in EMPs because of the compton scatter effect on the Breaking radiation

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>>30919806
Nucular missiles throw out -everything-.

>>30919888
>Wait are you serious? All I have to do is keep a pancake with me?
Except for neutrons. Those require waffles.

>>30919895
Where do gammers come from?
>>30919914
I feel like you're joking but everyone else seems to know what you're talking about so I'll bite. What kind of pancake and what kind of waffle do I need?

>>30919930
>Where do gammers come from?
Hand picked Tungsten-456 with a radium fusion core MK V5

>>30919960
So not nukeler missiles?

>>30919993
Chekem

>>30920007
That's not how that works

>>30919930
>Where do gammers come from?
Just about anything. Either directly released during fission/decay, or given off by reactions that betas, alphas, and neutrons have with matter. You can have gammas by themselves, but any other particle will also be accompanied by gammas. So, a gamma-only electronic dosimeter with an exposure rate measurement can be useful in any situation, so long as you understand that the situation you're in is possibly MUCH worse than what your little belt accessory is telling you.

>I feel like you're joking but everyone else seems to know what you're talking about so I'll bite. What kind of pancake and what kind of waffle do I need?
Lol, "pancake" refers to a form of Geiger-Mueller detector which is shaped like a pancake; usually a few centimeters in diameter and about a centimeter thick. It's an older design, but it checks out.

>>30920077
So what's a waffle?

>>30920102
A sarcastic reference to a pancake

Someone explain why neutrons cant be stopped by lead but can be by fucking plastic?

>>30920152
it's because lead is made up from x-rays and plastic is a dosimeter

>>30920167
Very nice.

>>30920152
They have no charge, so they have to be drawn in by the other forces which affect subatomic particles (Betas are highly charged, and alphas are FUCK heavily charged), which are almost negligible. Neutrons are zipping around close to the speed of light and have to hit dead on to react. If something as light as a neutron (roughly the same weight as a hydrogen nucleus) hits a lead nucleus, it bounces right off, without losing energy (picture a billiard ball hitting a bowling ball). If it hits a hydrogen atom, though, it loses a LOT of energy (billiard ball hitting a billiard ball). Plastics contain LOTS of hydrogen atoms; so does water. So, once a neutron bounces around a bit in plastic or water, it slows down enough that those weak nuclear forces are strong enough to absorb it, instead of it bouncing off. >>30920152

>>30920241
Ahhhh I see, so I assume the difference between thermal neutrons and fast neutrons is just a matter of kinetic energy?

>>30920289
Yup. If you wanna get really esoteric, some groups use even more classification levels. Thermal is easily absorbed.

>>30920318
All they told me to know was Thermal QF 5 Fast QF 10

>>30920363
Sounds Navy tier. Once I got out and got a respectable education on the subject, I learned that 90% of what they taught was dumbed down beyond all truthfulness.

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don't mind me, just using my meter made from junk that is perfectly calibrated by the laws of nature and doesn't require batteries.

>>30920432
Love that retro tech. Works great. Fallout tier build.
>aluminum 1
>copper 1
>etc etc

>>30920405
Actually AINDT, but they told me I would never use neutron radiography unless my level III wanted me to learn it, then they would teach me.

>>30920432
Anon what do you mean by meter? Is that a home made dosimeter? You know most dosimeters dont use batteries right? How does that never need calibration?

also your nails anon-kun plz

>>30920432
Explain

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>>30920478
>>30920487
>Commercially made radiation meters are typically based on electronic circuitry or require a battery-powered charging apparatus, allowing susceptibility to battery shortages and to electromagnetic pulse. The Kearny fallout meter was designed to utilize static electricity, produced by (for example) a hard plastic rubbed on dry paper.[2] The KFM was also engineered to be less expensive to build than dosimeters were to purchase and to be made out of commonly available materials, such that they could be constructed even after a disaster.[2] Most commercial radiation meters also require initial and periodic professional calibration, but "If a KFM is made and maintained with the specified dimensions and of the specified materials, its accuracy is automatically and permanently established by unchanging laws of nature".[1]

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>>30920552
mfw

>>30920478
>>30920487

Kearny Fallout meter:
http://www.ki4u.com/nwss.pdf

>>30920478
you still need a battery to zero out dosimeters

>>30920594
That's different, but yes.

>>30917887
Source please

>>30917698
What is the object in OP's pic then because I have one of those and I was under the impression that it was a Geiger counter.

>>30920683
Idfk some tumblr? What do ya want with me eh? here have another get outta here kid.

>>30920717
technically an Ion-chamber survey meter

>>30920575
now that i've stopped laughing, it's an application of the gold-leaf electroscope.
>An electrostatic charge is placed upon two aluminium foil leaves, causing them to repel. As radiation strikes the meter, the foil leaves lose their charge and start to droop. This droop can be measured, and its rate can be established.[2] The KFM has been used as a science project, demonstrating the effects of ionizing radiation.

>The dimensions of a KFM and the weight of its leaves permanently establish its calibration, when built as specified with a properly sized scale

>>30917697
Probably fire detectors.>>30917650

>>30920770
>technically an Ion-chamber survey meter
That one also has a nifty feature where the detector is on a 25 ft cable, so you can chuck it outside your fallout shelter. It's about as sensitive as a brick, though.

>>30920770
Why do classic PICs need calibration if they work on the same shit? I feel like im missing something

>>30917697
There's a lot of random weird shit from back in the day. Radium clocks and compasses, vacuum gages, radium rope, etc. Not a lot of activity, but some of those scrap yards have AWESOME detectors. I've done many a dumpster dive when an alarm went off there. https://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/radioluminescent/rope.htm

>>30920833
Potential for damage during handling, as well as embrittlement of the seals with age causing leakage of the fill gas.

I fucking hate PICs.

>>30920813
>It's about as sensitive as a brick, though.
they were made to detect incredible amounts of radiation after a nuclear blast when there were too many rays in the air for proper geiger counters to even work. they aren't going to register much less than a major nuclear event. if they still work at all.

>>30920888
They do feel a bit dated now that iv seen this thread.

>>30920896
>if they still work at all.
There are places that still calibrate them. A 3 Ci Cs-137 source will do it, easily.

>>30920931
it's not just calibration, the electronics haven't held up that well in the last 50 years, at least on the few i've seen.

>>30920902
There is so much damned inertia in the radiation industry that keeps this shit around. People never want to change, sometimes for tradition, sometimes for liability.

I mean, FUCK. When states are telling DENTAL ASSISTANTS they have to wear TLDs, shit's fucked. I would be very, very happy if LNT were acknowledged as bullshit by the IAEA, CRCPD, and ICRP, and ALARA went away entirely for professions where they could NEVER exceed 100 mR/yr.

>>30917650
Thirty bux on amazon and it won't evrn fuck up your edc your welcome OP. I have one for shits and giggles it works just fine. Turns out thity mil casings are slightly hot even if they weren't loaded with DU. Like 30 mil rards costant.
https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Radiation-Personal-Detector-Smartphone/dp/B00VVL3YH8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1470739300&sr=8-1&keywords=phone+geiger+counter

>>30917650
By the time you start thinking about that counter you had better taken a couple three four doses of saturated solution of potassium iodide then seal up where you after gathering all the food and water you can.

>>30923180
>works just fine
have you tested it against a know source? it only detects gamma right?

>>30923180
Seems like a gimmick to me