Kendo vs Fencing Who wins?

no one wins in these autistic comparisons

>>30745937
Stop making fun of me.

>>30745924
Basketball vs Soccar

Who wins?

>>30745987
They are very different things.

>>30745924
The guy who doesn't spend his Sunday making shitty "who wins?" threads on 4chan

>>30745924
The Portuguese rapier masters killed so many butthurt samurai that it caused them diplomatic problems.

>>30745937
>>30745999
Why are you doing this to me...

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>>30746015
Make a shitty thread and you get shitty replies.

>>30745924
Whoever avoids getting stabbed longer.

>>30746012
and we have a winner

>>30745924
they're both very sportified compared to actual swordfighting

>>30746012
Could you please support your statement with a scholarly reference?

>>30745997
So are kendo and fencing. They are sports INSPIRED by two very different blade techniques. Neither of them are martial arts and exist solely as a competitive sport.

well neither of them have pommels to end them rightly so I think it'd be a draw

In duel? Probably fencing.

Whoever is the better swordsman

Go ahead and want about how much weapon A is better in a duel than weapon B, I've seen people with a dagger win sparring matches against people with a longsword.

I've been on the losing side of a spear vs dagger, and I had the spear

the guy with the gun I'd say

>>30749322
why

>>30749428
Kendo specifically avoids strikes to vital areas.

>>30749621
So we're making it a duel to the death with actual swords?

A cut to the upper chest from a sword will kill you
A cut to the head will kill you
Cuts to the lower chest will kill you
Cuts to the wrists will disable you and allows the guy to cut your head, which will kill you

>>30746012
I would really REALLY like to read some historical evidence of this, it sounds hilarious.

>>30749428
Because the rapier and small swords are specially made for dueling. They are pretty much the fastest hand-to-hand combat weapons available and they have a long reach. Their hilt is also much better for parrying than the katana's tsuba.

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Society, it is literally a way for the weak, nerdy and pathetic to identify each other and prevent breeding. The rich can do it because they have assets to offset just how gay you actually look in a padded onesie.

>>30749428
Reach advantage

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m0CSrUrfA98

>>30749826
Smallsword =/= rapier. A smallsword doesn't have a reach advantage or a better guard than a japanese sword, it's even substantially worse on the guard part.
Rapiers aren't exactly faster, but more nimble because of the balance (a rapier is heavier than a typical japanese sword), smallsword are definitely faster, but a bit frail, don't know how safe it would be to parry a good two handed cut.

Still smallsword would be a decent competitor and rapier is arguably best carry sword there is in unarmored 1v1, no question.

>>30745924
so its a guy in a dress and a catchers mask swinging a broomhandle

vs.

a guy in feetsy pajamas wearing a collander on his head swinging a car antenna

we're all dumber for having read your thread, op.

>>30745924
In terms of making touches, fencing. If we are talking about fighting until one of them gives up due to pain or injury, kendo.

>>30745924
In kendo ruleset? Kendo practitioner.
In sport fencing ruleset? Fencing practitioner.
In real fight with sharps? They both die because neither of them know how to protect themselves.

>>30751609
Epee fencers have to do a shit done of defense.

>>30749017
>>30749776
May or may not be what that anon is talking about

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1582_Cagayan_battles

>tfw I'm a lefty foil

come at me you shits

>>30749017
Not that anon, but here I found this:
>“In fact there are some records in our national historic archive of more than a dozen encounters of Portuguese soldiers and samurais. These encounters are very well described and detailed. All ended with the same result except one. The samurai was killed in some or wounded (but killing themselves afterwards in shame) the only register of a killed Portuguese soldier was because he had such an amount of sake in his blood that he couldn’t stand straight. The Samurai that killed him was killed in the next day in a sword duel with a Portuguese sailor in top condition…
http://www.tameshigiri.ca/2014/05/07/european-vs-japanese-swordsmen-historical-encounters-in-the-16th-19th-centuries/

>>30745924

I do kendo, but I also did sabre at university. They are both fun and interesting. If the autists who make these threads and sperge over their favourite blade fantasies instead came out and practiced either form the internet would be a less shitty place.

Of course they don't usually last long when they do come out. It seems most prefer their delusions when they discover that physical fitness and mental discipline are required, and they are not instant masters no matter how many books they've read or anime they've watched.

>>30753755
worthless post

>>30753789

Worthless thread

>>30753755
I've always felt it is a matter of training and experience, but having a good weapon certainly helps.

>>30750676
>would be to parry a good two handed cut.

Nope. Any cutting action leaves yu wide open on the backswing to a lunge. Generally, light thrusting weapons will defeat cutting blades (unless you're wearing armour of course, which most users of cutting weapons Do)

>>30745924
In a sporting contest: fencing
In a fight to the death: fencing - the fencer only has to remove the cap from his point to inflict lethal wounds whereas a kendoka will have trouble doing anything worthwhile with a shinai that does not involve getting immediately stabbed in the eye (or leg, foot, hand, asian dick)
In the real world:.....that would be A BIG GUY with a longsword + mail/plate/SHIELD vs a little fellow (sorry folks, asian people are smaller and that's reality not racism) with a katana + maybe some relatively unprotective armour and I'm sorry for any weeb that thinks their anime knife wielders would stand a chance.

>>30750767
>In terms of making touches, fencing.
These touches don't count under kendo rules so...

>>30755364
Yeah "generally", but then this is a fight in a void.
You can cut while passing for instance (the very basic thing to do actually). You can even get stabbed with a smallsword and not get stopped on the track (fairly likely actually), still getting a good cut to the upper torso (which would be pretty nasty).
There are plenty of things to do with a cutting blade like a japanese sword against a smallsword, especially since in a bind the weight advantage is monstruous, the smallsword is like three times lighter after all.
You can totally do a game of cavazione with a japanese sword as well.

Must admit I don't quite understand what is it you call the backswing (english not being my native language). If it's the recovery, nothing prevents you from doing half-cuts in half-tempo, ending in chudan/seigan, you aren't wide open at all. If it's the arming motion, if you start in a very profiled high guard (hasso/jodan), passing is very easy, so you aren't exactly wide open (though it became a dangerous game of counter).

Smallsword is plenty deadly, but I would say it's still totally in the range of a typical japanese sword. A rapier, not so much, but then what is ?

>>30755364

This is like saying, "I will just punch the other guy first." It is easy to say, but well trained kendoka can move very quickly, and their cuts can come from a much greater distance than you might think. They are also capable of making effective cuts from closer in. I don't know if rapier users have close distance recourse other than to disengage quickly, but I do know that kendoka can capitalize on passing opponent's guard extraordinarily quickly.

If both sides have a good understanding of the maai involved and a comparable level of skill it would probably be a test of reflexes and nerve more than anything else.

>>30755482
>remove the cap from his point
when's the last time ANYBODY has used actual points in fencing? We all use either rubber tips (that aren't sharp underneath), or electronic tips.

You would have to buy an epee (epee masterrace) with an actual point just for this purpose, and I don't know where you would find one, let alone a decent one.

That being said, kendo is pretty shit tier. The point system relies more on shouting than anything

>>30755808
>The point system relies more on shouting than anything

Ki-ken-tai dude. It's OK you don't understand what you're watching, but you should at least refrain from speaking as if you do.

Considering that fencing is an olympic sport, I would guess that the world's best fencers are likely much faster than the best Kendo practitioners. Obviously the fighter trumps the martial art and the weapon itself.

>>30755868
Iirc, the major kendo association don't want or try to be an olympic sport, mainly because they don't want into electronic scoring. That doesn't mean there aren't immensely fast kendoka at the top levels.
It would be like saying that olympic judoka are better grapplers than, say world champion in BJJ (or equivalent). In fact it's impossible to say just on the fact that it's an olympic sport or not, if you don't know what's behind the sport inclusion as an olympic discipline.

>>30755973

The story I have heard is that the Koreans want kumdo to be an Olympic sport, so that it will legitimize their nationalistic version of kendo (and piss off the Japanese.) And I've heard that the ZNKR gives zero fucks about the Olympics because the ZNKR and the ZNKR alone decides what kendo is and what direction it should go, and everyone else can go hang.

>>30752076
>not saber
Have fun being limited to only stabbing people.

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>>30745924

http://www.mangareader.net/shigurui/24

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>>30745924
Historically speaking, the rapier. Japanese law and written accounts of the 16th-17thC support it.

>Portuguese get into fights with natives
>Rapiers rape face in unarmoured duels.
>Japanese gov bans gaijin from carrying nanban weapons.
Some time later
>Japanese swordsmen importing a fuckton of rapiers
>Killing eachother off in record numbers via duels
>Japanese government bans the carrying of nanban swords in public
Shortly there after...
>Near nanban districts, a new kind of katana with a lighter, straighter blade, thinner handle and sometimes with a spear point starts showing up...
Finally
>Domestically produced, trilateral, nanban styles spring up.

Japanese swords are frankly, a rather poor design that developed in a vacuum. Then again, it was never the main weapon and the cult of the sword is a rather recent invention.

>>30745924
Depends on the fencers.

Epee guys will totally spike the kendo guy's foot if they get the opportunity

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>>30756687
I am a scrub and watched the anime. It was...Ok.

>>30756687
>Jap Autism: The Manga

>>30746012
Never heard that story. But I have heard a story of a Dutch Merchant who brought a couple knights with him as security and they ended up killing a bunch of samurai too.

>>30756869
Oh, now I never knew about those laws. Just gonna ask for a source on them, but I'd believe it. Rapiers are literally designed for one on one unarmored dueling, after all.

>>30745924
Fencing.

Fencing used dulled/modified versions of the real thing (at least at one point in time)

Kendo uses wood sticks that can't be used to kill.

Ergo fencing can be used to kill much easier.

Jian vs Katana

Who wins.

Fencing is far too much of a sport to be practical fighting training.

Kendo is some what sporterized. Yet still about the basic forms.

>>30757823
>too much of a sport
It was originally a method of fighting, just like kendo.

The kendo sticks are wood.
The fencing swords are given a blunt end but with a little bit of work (a chop saw and a few seconds) it could be made much deadlier.

As I pointed out >>30757812

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>>30757790
I am on my phone at this time, and for some reason /tg/ is the only board that allows PDF uploads, but looking up nanban trade laws in google should help.

Also

http://www.tameshigiri.ca/2014/05/07/european-vs-japanese-swordsmen-historical-encounters-in-the-16th-19th-centuries/

>>30749755
yeah and a rapier is going to do all of those but while maintaining superior defense, being used by a motherfucker with footwork like money mayweather

>>30757844
>It was originally
Yes, it was. Now they don't know how to fight for shit.

>>30750676
>A smallsword doesn't have a reach advantage or a better guard than a japanese sword

>small sword blade length: 60-85 cm
>katana blade length: 60-73 cm
>odachi (longer version of katana) blade lenght: ~91 cm

so the reach is barely lower in the case of an odachi and there are small swords longer than katanas. also, katana (and odachi as well) trhusting is not as common nor efficient giving the small sword a big advantage on reach because you can attack without closing so much distance.

also, even a brass knuckle has better hand protection than any japanese sword. any small sword kick any japanese sword at hand protection

Double question
As just a for fun factor, is foil, epee or saber the best fencing?

As for historical, were rapiers or saber deadlier/more effective?

>>30758045

Foil is pretty impressive to watch but epee is probobly most fun to watch.

I've always wanted to try fencing, not sure which would be the most fun though. Foil looks breddy fun but I like the quasi (VERY QUASI) realism of epee.

As far as historical/HEMA/whatever I would say the rapier would be best for unarmed, single, non-war, hand to hand combat, but many videos say I'm wrong and MANY first hand accounts of sword-fights are sabers.

It just seems that objectively the rapier is by far the best sword for one-on-one, duel type fights.

>>30758082

Oh and to add to this I think long-sword v. rapier is a better comparison; longswords in my opinion are probably the best all-around sword of all time and I'm fairly certain with minimal googling you could find many rapier vs. longsword primary sources.

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>>30753323
kek
i know that Katana are heavy stupidity long tow hand sabra
but this mind blowing

>>30758045
As a foil fencer, it looks better than epee/saber because there's more action than epee and a lot more room for defense than in saber. I've never actually done either of those though, you should go watch some of each on youtube or something if you want to make an actual decision.

Rapiers would have been more effective in a duel because longer+stabbing weapon is more effective vs unarmored opponent than slashing.Sabers would be a lot better in a military context because they were much sturdier and probably better for closer, more chaotic fights.

>>30758045
>best fencing
Bated rapier. Historic fencing > sport fencing.

That said, I use a rebated heavy rapier for rapier plays, and a heavy musketeer epee for smallsword. Pic related, my workhorse trainer for 18thC smallsword

>As for historical, were rapiers or saber deadlier/more effective?
You can't really compare the two. Different weapons for different applications.

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>>30758214
Derp

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>>30745924
I practice both, it all depends on who and where, and not what

>Kendo vs Fencing
>Who wins?
Its like saying an AR vs. Handgun, what the weapon is, isn't as important as the wielder

>>30758282

>AR vs. Handgun

If we are standing 500 yards away from each other then the AR is going to win every time, no matter the skill of the user.

>inb4 crazy handgun trick shots

You know what I mean.

>>30758339

>not practicing to shoot up to 1000 yards with your sidearm

>>30758339
Ok and now the engagement distance is 100 yards, now the gap between weapon capabilities is smaller and its more skill then choice.

Saying this vs. this is just dumb imo

>>30758387
Seeing as its spawned an excellent discussion covering both historical and recreationally use of different weapons, we need to have more thing vs thing threads

>>30758387

So when historic documentation, first hand accounts of actual duels, show that one was superior to the other almost overwhelmingly, it doesn't matter?

>>30758465
>putting word into my mouth

Its not that it doesn't matter, but its not 1543 anymore, today's fighters are better then the past ones could ever be, and written history can very much be changed or completely erased.

So says this vs. this and bringing up period information does bring light into the convo, but I feel its only 40% of whats actually important. By going just off old info and saying "hands down one is better" is dumb

>>30758441
>excellent discussion

no it really wasn't

>>30758441
>>30758465
He's being a salty contrarian just for the sake of it. Pay him no mind.

>>30758593
rather then hopping on the band wagon without looking at whats actually important in this, ok bud, also

>tripfagging

>>30758639
>Not knowing based Clown

Nigga, you a dumb.

>>30758870
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgHNtzxO0y8

Now this thread can die like it should

>>30756869
Gropey!
One of the few tripfags I don't despise!
Gropey, Shoggy, koko and OPenheimer. Everyone else can go fucking hang.

I was unaware you posted in /k/

>>30745924
>kendo guy raises sword to strike
>gets poked
Estoc OP

Fencer hits first, kendo guy bonks him on the head a fraction of second after.

>>30758587
I disagree. I love these samurai tears

>>30745987
In the US: Basketball

>>30749232
go to bed skallagrim your drunk

I'm pretty sure the guy getting his ass beat by a big wooden stick is going to come out worse than the guy getting poked by a bit of rubber on the end of a spring.

Whatever the rules are and whoever is declared winner of the match notwithstanding, I wouldn't want to be the fencer the next morning.

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>>30746015

>>30758005
>also, even a brass knuckle has better hand protection than any japanese sword. any small sword kick any japanese sword at hand protection
Lol no, smallsword guard aren't usually even made of iron or steel, tsuba are way more thicker (sometimes half a cm thick) and just as big. The smallsword guard is a joke but it's ok because a guard isn't really there to protect against thrusting, so if you expect a lot of thrusts...

>>30757922
WeeB detected

>>30749621
Like what?

>>30762087
>someone says something bad about something from west
>he must be weeb
Nice work, Sherlock.

>>30745924
They're not the same thing. Sport fencing is a sport and kendo is decidedly uncompetitive.

>>30749621
bullshit

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>>30755482
>plate + shield
Opinion discarded

>>30746012
DELETE THIS

>>30750702
I like you.

This guy

>>30762357

>>30750702
Kek

>>30746012

This isn't very informative without knowing the skill of the samurai involved.

By this era there were large numbers of samurai who were almost totally useless with a katana and were basically beurocrats who had a sword as a symbol of social rank.

>>30763548
>My fantasy samurai football team would win everytime.

The Portuguese did not fuck around, anon. They were swordsman and sailors ahead of the curve.

>>30758192
>it looks better than epee and saber
Oh boy, I LOVE six off target hits in a row.

>>30763581

I wasn't suggesting skilled samurai would have beaten the skilled Portuguese swordsmen cited above, just noting that most samurai by that period were not skilled swordsmen and thus don't necessarily make a very useful barometer.

>>30763662
Fair enough, anon.

Not to take anything away from budo, but those sailors were coming back around the horn born again hard.

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Just drip in a tiny bit of seriousness..
They're both "sports."
They both simulates martial arts to a very limited degree.
Any comparison of legitimacy or effectiveness in real world for both of these highly sportirized martial arts is pure retardation.
Considering not shitposting every again, anon.

>>30763757
>every single last again

>>30753323
It seems our beloved galactic warriors reversed the tables when they lightened their battle kitanas.

>>30755592
Bunch of bullshit

>>30745924
Neither
The HEMA practitioner comes in and bludgeons them with a blunt longsword

>>30755482
>In the real world:.....
A gun, you fucking underaged b&

>>30753323
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF2wLZBUEi4
rapier vs katana HEMA sparring
If it's rapier, buckler vs katana or rapier, dagger vs katana.
Rapier would win by a large margin.

>>30763850
They didn't reverse them. They tried to catch up.

>>30753323
According to that article, by and large the Portuguese seemed to be way better than the British that got owned by the Japanese several times.
I wonder if they had just more experience, or a differente school altogether.

>>30764381
They were aggressive and innovative. the first global empire was achieved as a result. They're a scrappy lot, lad.

>>30764381
Plus look at their women. Even the descendants in the former south American colonies. Got that thicc. Homicide errywhere, nigga. Oh shit, nigga. Calm down, son.

>>30764353
They did go fuck yourself

>>30764339

Why don't you post an example of someone who actually knows how to use a katana? That guy could not even stand correctly. His kamae was way off, his footwork was shit, his grip was wrong, and his waza was non-existent. He's got no ki, sutemi, or zanshin. This is not someone with much, if any, kendo or kenjutsu training.

>>30764602
They also walked into every engagement knowing they were out numbered. Does this make you buttmad?

>>30764669
Is that why there are Japanese colonies? Superior zanshin?

>>30745924
A Portuguese Crusader apparently.

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>>30764669
Gomenasai anon, my name is Ken-Sama. I'm a 27 year old American Otaku (Anime fan for you gaijins). I draw Anime and Manga on my tablet, and spend my days perfecting my art and playing superior Japanese games. (Disgaea, Final Fantasy, Persona series)

I train with my Katana every day, this superior weapon can cut clean through steel because it is folded over a thousand times, and is vastly superior to any other weapon on earth. I earned my sword license two years ago, and I have been getting better every day.

I speak Japanese fluently, both Kanji and the Osaka dialect, and I write fluently as well. I know everything about Japanese history and their bushido code, which I follow 100%

When I get my Japanese visa, I am moving to Tokyo to attend a prestigious High School to learn more about their magnificent culture. I hope I can become an animator for Studio Ghibli or a game designer!

I own several kimonos, which I wear around town. I want to get used to wearing them before I move to Japan, so I can fit in easier. I bow to my elders and seniors and speak Japanese as often as I can, but rarely does anyone manage to respond.

>>30764770

What the fuck are you even talking about?

In that video, the one posted as an example of rapier vs katana, that guy with the bokken is not properly trained in the use of the katana.

His stance limits his ability to move quickly. Particularly his back foot is at an angle, and his center of gravity is forward instead of over his feet.

His grip is wrong. The hands are positioned wrong and his arm muscles are too tense. This limits the ability to move quickly, induces fatigue quickly, and makes the cutting techniques (waza) telegraphed, slow, and performed poorly.

His middle guard (chudan no kamae) has the tip too high, and the blade angled off to one side. He is not protecting his centerline, in other words. This lets the opponent get closer without fear because they do not have to by-pass the thrusting tip or worry about quick retaliation. Facing an opponent with reach and a desire to thrust this invites disaster.

He does not use seme, meaning he is not pressuring his opponent and making purposeful approaches.

He is leaning forward, putting him off balance as well as forcing his cuts to use a burst of strength rather than proper body mechanics. He does not make good, quick cuts, but short chopping motions. The chopping motions are a big indicator that he is not using fundamentals.

When he comes in to chop at the opponent he does not commit fully to his course of action (sutemi) and makes tentative chops, then stops or tries to back away. Because he is not fully committed his opponent is allowed to control distance and timing, putting him at a severe disadvantage. Because he has no continuing vigilance/aggression (zanshin) his opponent is allowed to quickly recover and reestablish dominance.

He should at the very least be trading a split skull for a punctured lung, but because he does not commit and moves too slow he is not even doing that.

Whatever else you want to say about it, this guy is not representative of kendo/kenjutsu/proper katana use.

>>30765109
I'm talking about japan not stretching out until it started using firearms. Not to mention long after Portugal was btfo by england, france, and the dutch republic. You want to nitpick about the video, and I'm talking about history. But yeah, what you said.

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>>30765102

Here is your (you)

>>30745924

The nigga with the Poleaxe or Halberd when he shears both their weapons in half. Not even the spider-monkey fencer will get out of the way in time.

>>30765109
Rapier raped katana for literal centuries.

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i have nothing to add but this cool pic.

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>/k/'s face after discovering Portuguese Crusaders

>>30765157
Japan started using firearms long before they end Sakoku(nation isolation).

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>>30764669
>>30765109
>>30765166

Portughese Swordman > Samurai
Rapier > Katana

Get over it.

>>30765102
i know this is copypasta but jesus h FUCK does every word in it piss me off, and i'm pretty fucking weeb as it is

>>30765356
That's even worse, but ok.