>Cuckscription

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Conscripts by themselves are useless cunts, you really need to integrate them with professional military to make them do anything useful

>>30009635
conscription in yurope is the only way theyll have anything resembling an army.

>>30009635
conscripts ofen are the better soldiers than the welfare queens doing it as a job

It's a good idea, I think we should implement it in Canada. It gives the population military training in the event of invasion, disaster, or tyranny, builds national unity, and creates a stronger military.

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>hazing and brutal initiation rituals
>goverment indoctrination
>morale, training and gear are substandard compared to professional armies
>getting shipped to some third-world shithole to fight and die for corrupt global elites

You posted a pic of Estonians, yet you are describing the Russian army here. Conscription in the Baltic/Nordic countries is not the same as conscription in Russia.

Idk I was never especially hazed or brutalized at all, but I didn't go to an 'elite' combat unit, and our equipment was p much find, certainly better than the likely adversaries

Of course, morale would take a big hit if conscripts had to go to a foreign war zone for political reasons rather than being used for national defence, where patriotic fervour boosts their will to fight-i think conscription is best for countries that aren't going to send huge numbers of troops overseas as part of some or other coalition

>>30009719

t. American who watched a VICE video about carefree weekend warriors

A nation that cannot draw enough able-bodied volunteers to defend it probably isn't a nation anyone considers to be worth dying for.

A nation that isn't worth dying for doesn't deserve to maintain its sovereignty.

>>30009712

Your youth will never stand for it


I mean this is the most respectful way possible, I am in your country to study-your teenagers are too...individualist is the word I use, but a better one is probably self-absorbed. I don't think they'd fathom the idea of signing away their nice comfy lives for a year or two. I doubt your ruling party would even let such a proposal come to parliament

It's borne out of necessity. Nobody like conscription (not the military nor civil government) because the large amount of money invested on training that would turn to shit (poor skills retention) as well as large basic logistical footprint. This is why jewland won't spend more than the bare minimum on soldiers' kits ( uniform, boots, hell even ration as they are all off the shelf products)


>hazing and brutal initiation rituals
While bootcamp is supposed to be harsh, hazing is pretty much an isolated cases unless you're a russian
>goverment indoctrination
They're not gonna force you to vote for one guy, unless you're a russian
>morale, training and gear are substandard compared to professional armies
While the gear are substandard (like the IDF), the training and morale isn't. The problem is about skill retention. Morale shouldn't be a problem as well, unless you're a russian.
>getting shipped to some third-world shithole to fight and die for corrupt global elites
Conscription is supposed to be a necessity measures to get enough able-bodied men (and women) to defend you're country from invasion, unless you're a russian

There is nothing wrong with hazing

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>>30009635
In general it might be a good idea to use it to have numbers on the wiki page.

In reality conscription, especially estonian, can and has fucked over a lot of people.
>some guy who's the only one capable of eanring money in family, gets conscripted, loses the house with morgage, loses cars, gets negative credit since the conscript pay is is literally not even enough to pay for weekly snacks

>some other guy does uni abroad, finishes it, gets called in for conscription, loses all contacts and networking, can't get a job afterwards unless goes to school again. Bam, 4 years and 60,000 dollars wasted vs 1500 dollars of conscript pay gotten.

>guys with obvious physical and medical conditions taken in, get injured even harder and have to go on disability cause the medicals don't care

I'm running from them myself since I just finished uni and I can't get a job if I lose a year anywhere. I also have depression and other medical conditions, so I have to pay out of my ass to travel between countries and doctors just so I can fail a medical check.

Kevadtorm was shit.

>>30009728

Oh I forgot to mention, outside the first couple weeks of basic training I thoroughly enjoyed being a conscript

Training in conscript militaries tends to be dumbed down to six months of adult daycare.

Nobody actually learns anything unless they decide to be a regular. Certainly they don't remember anything once they go back to their normal lives.

>>30009635
>getting shipped to some third-world shithole to fight and die for corrupt global elites
Oh like all the other armies?

Conscription is ok for large-scale wars where the survival of the nation is at stake.

Professional soldiers and mercenaries are better for little colonial/interventionist war adventures.

Either way, soldiers have to care about what they are doing.

>>30009635
>Estonian Conscript given mediocre M14s
>When Galils and their Ak5 G3 variants perform better

>>30009719

Aren't most Russian soldiers professional nowadays? I believe conscripts have a year or so service (not enough to learn anything) and do the logistic stuff.

>>30009635

There should be 2 sorts of conscription.

Mandatory service within a nations military, primarily dealing with national defence and basic training.

Forced servitude for unemployed adults which rolls in education and basically forces said conscripts to do distribution and logistics work since thats the single largest and most expensive part of modern militaries.

Professional armies should basically be the equivalent of international PMCs who function purely for the benefit of a nation.

Conscription should focus on border control, national protection and general military service within the borders of a nation.

Either way, they are welfare queens.

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>>30009887
In Russia, it's about 300k-350k professional ("contract") soldiers and 500-600k conscripts. With new policy not to deploy conscripts into combat zones without official mobilization.

it's a year wasted that I could have been in college during

>>30009712
>It gives the population military training in the event of invasion, disaster, or tyranny, builds national unity, and creates a stronger military.
Ok, so couldn't the population just decide to do that?

You sound like one of the "how do we get more women into tech?"

>>30009966

The natural tendency of people is to think into tribe-like ways and no loyalty beyond my hometown.

>>30009963
this.
It's basically wasting one of your years best spent learning an actuall proffession that is worth more to the country than being a welfare queen and fucking around for 1 year learning to shoot with 3 rounds of ammo.

How about having a professional army for little wars, but a mechanism to quickly mobilize and conscript a good bunch of the population in case of serious war?

>>30010000
idk I'm from the US and i don't think the US is worth fighting or dying for


no current political party or group has my best interests at heart


why should I care about my country?

>>30009887
>year or so service (not enough to learn anything)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ-RPOgS1E

>>30010044
part 1 (the last one was part 2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghi8iN2zgvU

>>30009635
As long as I have my college deferment, I'm fine with it.

:/\)

>>30009635
>Is conscription a good idea?
if you absolutely positively need bodies /right/ now OR if you're a tiny ass nation. yes.

>>30009680
Conscripts can perform as well as professionals or even better in some cases during the training and evaluation period.

>>30009781
No such problems here in Finland, state takes care of their boys. But sorry to hear your situation. If you have chance to do your compulsory service do it, I have a lot of good memories eventhought my unit wasn't shiny or "elite"

>>30009834
That post is completely wrong. Training happens 5-7 days a week with proper rest. Time usage is well planned (well planned as in large group of conscripts can be). And actually you learn quite lot so not daycare for adults

>>30010000
Common misconception is that conscripts don't get to shoot much. Depending on your unit, you get to shoot hundreds to thousands of blanks and hundreds of real ammunition at range and during exercises. Depends completely on the unit.

>>30010164
Small nations with homogeneous population is good nation to have conscription.

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Why not make the army appealing enough so people start enlisting on their own? Conscripted soldiers likely wont be any motivated to do shit. Seems to me like a waste of money

>>30010269
>why not make the army appealing enough so people start enlisting on their own?

Nothing short of advertising free sex for all enlisted will get even near the body count of conscription. most of the nations that have a use for non emergency conscription are nations that don't have a lot of people fleeing to the military to escape poverty.

>>30010269
One could be big ass pay, but we really don't have funds for it. Another could be long term tax and other benefits, but that also wouldn't be good for our economy.

>>30010305
Conscription is more or less a duty that has to be done. We still have quite high support for it due to long history with conscription and successful "propaganda" for it. It really isn't hard to understand that conscription for us is the best choice after nuclear weapons after what we have seen happen to swedes.

>>30009963
Finland, Israel, Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea all impose conscription and they have arguably the best tertiary education in the world, with large percentage of their population have at least a bachelor degree.

What's your excuse?

>>30010785
I don't care about my country. I just happened to be born here.

>>30010798

Eh, it happens. At least you're not in the middle east.

>>30010798
Well sucks to be you then. Move abroad if you don't like your nation.

>>30009966

>Ok, so couldn't the population just decide to do that?


Exactly, but conscription would standardize and professionalize that experience instead of just a bunch of survivalists playing army innawoods. We should lobby our politicians to pass conscription.

>>30010016
Just because the government isn't worth fighting for doesn't mean the country isn't. A country isn't its government, a country is its people and their homeland.

>>30010815
I'm in the US.

I don't like the US but I like other countries less.

>>30010823
I honestly can't understand this at all.

Well, it lets you field guys for anywhere from 1/6-1/10 of the cost of a volunteer American soldier. If you potentially need a lot of bodies to throw into the meatgrinder (South Korea), it makes a certain amount of sense.

Man, do they ever hate conscription there though. I'm talking about guards who aren't given ammunition for their guns because they'll off themselves.

>>30010836
A peasant can fight to protect his homeland of France from an invading Muslim army without giving two shits about the shitty king ruling France.

It depends on the country you stupid nigger.

Universal declarations of whats better or worse do not work without considering the individual needs of a nation.

>>30010816
many American servicemen I have talked to (over the Internet) have been advocates of introducing national service to USA, even if the quality of the American conscripts upon EAS might turn out to be less than they had hoped for, at least those EAS'ing conscripts would have learned something which just might make them into decent adults faster than without national service, plus you never know how many of the conscripts might actually decide that military as a career is "The Shit" for them, troops who enlist voluntarily even after experiencing what the military life is like are bound to be more motivated than those who serve for the duration of one enlistment before transferring to 1st Civ Div and bitching on Facebook about Stolen Valor and how the Old Corps was better than the current one etc...

I'm 100% pro-conscription mainly to escape poverty and because police forces and army feel like "foreigners" who would beat the shit out of you for nothing.

btw I think that there would be something like volontary conscription or the government should help people to get a job

It's as simple as 1-2-3.

1. I don't want to waste my time in the military when I could be in school.
2. I can always choose to join the military after school if I want to.
3. I don't want to die in a pointless war; if there was a war for the defense of the American nation and not our so called 'allies' or our retarded global interests, I'd probably enlist myself.

>>30009635
>>turns boys into men by instilling masculine values and teaching useful skills

Without giving away my response to you question, I just want to point out that it would be more worthwhile to teach the youth right from wrong and instill values that support an economy; ie. don't take what does not belong to you, or don't be lazy at what ever job you have - earn your full pay. "Masculine" values seems kinda vain and dependent on the nation's culture.

>>30009635
>ITT: Yet another Americans do not understand conscription thread.

>>30009704
Opinions are not facts.... and there are meany hard working E2-E4s whom would take offense to your statement. Your opinion is so cold callous and cynical.

>>30009635
>Is conscription a good idea?
No. The one time we tried it, it sucked ass.

Universal military *training*, on the other hand, is what George C Marshall advocated. Going through boot when you're eighteen might instill some of the virtues that postmodern yoots badly need.

>>30011053
3. point is kind of moot: I don't think any of the conscription-based militaries are currently sending conscripts to combat zones abroad, instead they send career military and/or volunteer reservists, the point of conscription is to train a large pool of reservists from which to draw required number to be trained further should it be necessary to increase the strength of the armed forces, Finland for example has a pool of 900 000 trained reservists, the fully mobilized strength of Finnish Defence Forces is around 230 000 I think, including career personnel, this difference gives the military the chance to go as far as hand-pick the most suitable reservists for the war-time units (FDF goes so far as to prepare the war-time units name-by-name from the lowest private in a three-man infantry patrol to the highest-level wart-time commanders, these plans are constantly adjusted as people age, die, break limbs, move abroad, get a job that in times of war is vital for the war-time economy etc.)

>>30010798
Kek suck to be you. Have you considered suicide?

>>30009635
>teaching useful skills

Such as scrubbing toilets?

Stop with the memes. Nobody has ever learned anything useful from in a conscript based army. The army a is prison where you get locked up for the guilt of being born a male.

>>30009680
Where was this shit lol looks really familiar.

>>30009635
swissanon here
we couldn't sustain our forces as they are right now. Conscription is a tradition here, grandkids can share stories with their grandparents about each others service (which is usually a contest in who made more crap during his service). It too strengthens our shooting community without conscription shooting clubs would be dead
Also Conscription pisses off our liberals and just for that we have to keep it

>>30010173
To bad Finland can't take care of there people and life style, country of the cucked

>>30010808
But he is in new middle east

>>30011236
With that I meant state pays rent and if your monetary situation is super shit more benefits are given. Also law protects your job so they cannot fire you. All in all when you are serving you get free accommodation, hot meal 3 times a day and your rent is paid along with some other benefits that don't come to mind.

But I do agree that there is things that should be vhanged, but that would go too /pol/ and offtopic.

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>>30011236
/pol/posting should be a permaban

>>30011208
>Nobody has ever learned anything useful from in a conscript based army.
my uncle did his mandatory service in Signals Regiment, got free training for those link masts we today call cell towers (even here in Funland where education is mostly free the training required to work in those cell towers isn't free & is more valuable than many tertiary degrees even though you can get it for free by serving 6 months in the military (my uncle served 13 as he got trained as an NCO)), went to work for Nokia with high enough salary that he, with his girlfriend, was ready to move from Finland to Australia for the job, that was almost 20 years ago, they came back two years ago because Nokia went to shit and fired pretty much everyone who worked for them.

Yes.
-Finland here

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>>30011295
Sorry Mohammed

>>30011184
Key word is 'Currently'. I don't know about you, but I don't trust the career politicians of the US to not send conscripts into combat zones abroad. They did it in Korea and Vietnam, and if Donald gets into office and does bring back conscription like he said he would, I have no doubt that his administration would have no problem telling the DoD to send whoever they feel like sending to go fight some retarded war in Iran or some other sandy shithole.

>>30011222
>grandkids can share stories with their grandparents about each others service (which is usually a contest in who made more crap during his service)
I did this with my grandfather when I visited him while I was serving (used all of my leave days for that 9-day visit), as well as with my dad at various points during my service, turns out that while the people change, the jokes and legends don't.

>>30009686
Only Switzerland, Austria, Norway, Finland and Estonia still practice conscription. UK, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Spain, etc. they all switched to professional armies.

>>30009945
Weren´t tanks and other vehicles back in the days of the USSR manned by conscripts as opposed to professional soldiers? I know thats changed now but still, it seemed like a silly thing to do.

>>30010269
Want to sell me that? I love latpat.

>>30011417
Finland still trains conscripts to crew tanks (and it seems like American career personnel who occasionally participate in exercises with our armored forces have yet to find something to complain about our conscript tank crews), it's not fucking rocket science to operate a modern MBT

>>30009766
So you're saying that just because every nation isn't as blessed as the US or Russia with a sizeavle population, it should be absorbed? I'm afraid your opinion isn't agreed with by the millions of citizens from Portugal, Spain, France, Luxembourg, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece, Macedonia, Albania, Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Croatia, Slovenia, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine. Not to mention the countless other small African, American and Asian countries from Syracuse to Saigon.

>>30011417
I mean, the trend "even a monkey with a manual could operate this!" was firmly established during WWII and since a lot of countries kept conscription-based militaries with more tanks than they could pay decent wages to get professional crews to man them, the trend stuck.

>>30009704
>>30011106
>It hurts muh feelings
It's pretty obvious that conscription will result in a recruitment base more like the general population. Probably more intelligent and educated, but less motivated.

>>30009766
By the same logic you would replace taxes with voluntary donations I guess.

>>30011101

Do go on, professor.

>>30009719
>Conscription in the Baltic
Lads in my unit got fucked in the ass that could not stand up for them self, our equipment was so fucking bad, our training consisted of digging foxholes, collecting officer cigarette buds outside of barracks, cutting grass and curing trees, my older brother was in prison for hit and run and he said that inside was more order and discipline than in the army

There should be an automatic ban for throwing the word cuck about
Fucking /pol/ leakage

>>30010269
>Conscripted soldiers likely wont be any motivated to do shit.
Yes they are. A lot of conscripts are people who would have been in the military anyway, if it was voluntary. The military often send the useless and unmotivated away because they don't need to conscript every single person.

>>30011456
>Implying any small country could win a war even if had heavy conscription.

>>30009635
>Is conscription a good idea?
Is liberty valuable?

This simple question is all it boils down to at the end of the day. I'd argue, and forgive me for putting it this bluntly, that conscription is unneeded in a country worth fighting for - mustering up the manpower by non-coercive means is the ultimate test of legitimacy and standard of government.

I'm from Finland, and I don't find it worthwhile to fight and die for my government. This country is too indistinguishable from the rest of the Nordic countries and most continental European countries. I would, however, gladly fight for (amongst other US states) Wyoming, Alaska, or Vermont - in a pinch, I'd even consider protecting federal institutions -, but not for this bland, authoritarian nanny state.

TL;DR: no.

>>30012562
>A lot of conscripts are people who would have been in the military anyway, if it was voluntary.
If that were true, we'd have no conscription.
> The military often send the useless and unmotivated away because they don't need to conscript every single person.
Most useful people are unmotivated, and vice versa.

Norway.
>hazing and brutal initiation rituals
They exist, they're controlled and in no way that dangerous or bad.
>goverment indoctrination
negligable
>morale, training and gear are substandard compared to professional armies
The equipment I recieved was expensive and there was lots of it. Winter gear, summer gear, GRU, beret, helmet, 5 different other hats or caps, bullet proof vest, baton, gas mask, glock, HK416s for everyone. Some equipment I got to keep. You'll just have to pay for the equipment if you lose it. If it's a weapon you might be fucked.
>getting shipped to some third-world shithole to fight and die for corrupt global elites
IT AIN'T ME. Only career soldiers do that here.

They don't accept anybody into conscription like they used to. Gradually after the Gulf Wars the potential of specialists was definitively seen, so the conscriptions per year have decreased a lot and it's foreseeable that conscription is going to disappear entirely. Now you must pass an IQ test, a social test, have no allergies at all, 20/20 sight, 10/10 hearing, be security cleared so no immigrants in any generations from non NATO countries etc.

My health was 10/10 so I had no trouble getting in, I didn't want to though, and was not that fit considering I used to be skin and bones and could only do 1 pullup. After a year and finished with it I could manage to do 12. So all in all, worth it IMO.

>>30009719
>tfw the russian army is horrible enough to have a human rights group dedicated to it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_the_Committees_of_Soldiers%27_Mothers_of_Russia

>>30011208
Korean hotels are sometimes equipped with rope/basic descent equipment instead of emergency exits

>>30012709
Israel would like to have a word with you.

>>30013235
to be fair, they might have received *just a little bit* of help from a certain friendly country once or twice...

I was a ground force conscript for Belarus, and of course we need conscription here, how else will we fend of a merkalite invasion?

>>30014306
OT, but last year I had an interesting moment in an exercise when we were about to start loading ammo belts for NSVs and we saw the wooden boxes, or rather the markings: cyrillic text (well obviously...) saying "Belarus" and "1981"

>>30014513
*wooden ammo boxes

>>30011366
Some of the best countries in the world, then. Coincidence?

>>30009887
>I believe conscripts have a year or so service (not enough to learn anything) and do the logistic stuff.
Which is why they are going to be grunts only. Specialist positions like tankers, SAM crews, artillerists etc. are going to be kontraktniks only.
>>30011417
>it seemed like a silly thing to do.
For WW3 it isn't. For the landwehr in Europe the Soviets meant to attack in echelons. The 1st echelon, cream of the crop professionals and conscripts armed with the best equipment, would race westward and barely be stopped by NATO. Which is no problem because there is another echelon made up of reservists using older equipment just behind them that would finish off the rest. The third and last echelon
made up of the rest of the manpower left would then proceed to assist the newly absorbed Soviet Socialist Republics of Western Europe
in building up the lost population during the landwehr.

>>30012282
What country - Estonia or Lithuania?

>>30009635

Everything has to do with attitude. If the population sees the conscription as something good, they will usually preform well. And since conscripts are cheap you can train more soldiers. Finland has an Army of 300 000 conscripts, and Sweden has one of roughly 50 000 enlisted. Finland still has a much smaller defence budget.

Conscription is usefull for smaller countries with a homogenus population, but its a terrible idea for the US.

>>30009635
Only for European army where they need to raise a mass of previously trained troops fast.

If the US ever needed a large mass of troops because putin got his balls twisted. We could do a Wartime draft. The lead time to train them past the shit standards of conscripts would be less than it would take to ship our entire active duty and Guard to the fight.

We are not like isreal or Poland where Tanks rolling across the border is a real threat. Canada and mexico would be stomped by only part of our active force in less than a month. if they even lasted that long.

>conscription gives shitloads of people military training.
>it improves opinioin of military spending
>it greatly improves the quality of professional forces, since the can pick the best ones from conscription
>gives a nation good control over its populations health and thus the status of its manpower.

>>30010823
Me and you would get along

>>30009635
Depends on the kind of operations you take part in.

Armies in Europe that don't practice conscription and are full professional instead are nations that are more or less certain that they'll have the US backing them up in case of conflict. So UK, Germany or Italy. Meanwhile the ones that DO border with potential threat countries will never opt for full professional army - see Finland or Estonia.

For the more extreme example - look at Israel. They are surrounded by potentially dangerous neighbours, have enemies at home and there's very few of them. I can assure you that as long as Arabs won't ritually kill themselves for whatever chimped-out reason they can invent, Israel will practice conscription.

The historical record is little bit fuzzy but shows that the bigger military generally wins more often than it doesn't and as conscription is a good way to increase the size of your army - then in unstable times or region it should be a norm(in fact it is a norm).
Ultimately Saddam was wrecked by the sheer mass of coalition(mostly US forces), and it didn't matter what kind of system of service they've preferred but - in prolonged conflict draft is simply a thing that will inevitably happen, see World War 1. In the beginning BEF was composed of the nastiest motherfuckers on earth, Germans often reported MG positions only to find out that these was just a rifle sections firing crazy-accurately and crazy-fast. However, by the time the race to the sea ended(that is the end of 1914) the British Professional army simply wasn't there anymore.

>>30009766
>ideology-influenced decision making
You're literally a commie.

>>30009635
I think I would be a fan of some kind of compulsory national service be it military or some sort of domestic peace operation. I think it would help solidify national identity because everyone had to go through the same shit for America and we are all in this shit together. I think our politics wouldn't be so divisive if everyone shared an experience like this.

>>30009766
>A nation that isn't worth dying for doesn't deserve to maintain its sovereignty.
Soooo most western countries should just pack up and fuck off?

>>30013292
Arabs had USSR's help.

If you'll track the wars Israel waged you'll see amazingly competent IDF wrecking havoc on Ayyyrabs being Ayyyrabs - that is being sectarian backstabbing faggots.

>>30012303
>be leftcuck
>get mad when you get called out

>>30018728
>Ultimately Saddam was wrecked by the sheer mass of coalition
What? Didn't the invasion and initial occupation occur with essentially a skeleton army? I thought it was a test to see how few units were actually necessary to defeat a country in a modern war.

>>30018760
Yes?

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>turns boys into submissive cucks by forcing them into servitude and teaching them they have no real power over their own lives and that the government, other people's law, and society as a whole can make them do whatever they want and that they better not try and deviate from that path.

Yeah, doesn't really sound like a lesson in masculinity to me. If you don't go into the military being already enlightened, having a solid foundation of moral values and the fortitude not to bend or change then you're fucked and there's a good chance you'll warp into the worst sort of person.

>>30010823
>A country isn't its government, a country is its people and their homeland.
So the fucking retards who let the country be turned into a pile of shit around them, wanting it in many cases, and the wasteland that they've created over the generations?

There's not very much worth dying for, what there is is usually your close family, friends and your own property/ideals/sovereignty etc.

The best way to undermine the effectiveness of an army, or any group for that matter, is to fill its ranks with people who don't want to be there.

>>30012282
You're either spreading ruskie desinf or served in the 90s.

Protip: no one counts on vintage beyond about 2007 for mobilisation due to changed doctrine, structure, training standards, conscription principles etc. Pre mid-naughties EDF was a rather shitty place due to logical reasons. This is not the case today, tho.

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>>30018966
>getting anally violated by officers
>primary school-tier training
>1940s Swedish gear everywhere
>50 year old rifles that have been to hell and back, so they jam every other round (effectively making them bolt-action)

>y-yeah man, conscription in the EDF is pretty fucking good

>>30019002

>>getting anally violated by officers
Literally doesn't happen at all. During my time a sarge had a an official inquiry almost launched against him and I even had to go and give preliminary statements to the MP due to the misfortune of having been there. And the incident? Some private took offense and sent a complaint to the literal HQ of EDF that the sarge 'verbally violated' - raised his voice - and 'kicked him hard while he was down' - tapped his sole with some force while he was prone and failed to do something during an exercise. If some actual violation had or ever would take place it would be easily a over the news and heads would roll and lots of brass would be disciplined with extreme thoroughness. EDF and Estonia is too small keep anything like that under wraps this day and age.
>>primary school-tier training
Extrapolate. Basic training is basic, yo.
>>1940s Swedish gear everywhere
As if it matters how old a tent is as long as it provides shelter.
>>50 year old rifles that have been to hell and back, so they jam every other round (effectively making them bolt-action)
Dumbshit, that's due to blanks. If there's a faulty weapon you can take it to the weaponsmith and have it repaired or changed for a new one. Also, what are moblisation stores? Everyday training IS done with the same weapons each year to spare the overall resource. If you get mobilosed you naturally get a fucking unused one.
>>y-yeah man, conscription in the EDF is pretty fucking good
When did you even serve? 11/9? Role? Kinda curious now.

>>30010173
>Conscripts can perform as well as professionals or even better in some cases during the training and evaluation period

Mother. Fucking. Nope.

Professional armies are categorically better. As proven by, well mountains of evidence and research.

>>30019151
Provide them.

Swiss conscripts for example rate very highly in competitions.

>>30011433
No way, man. I'm actually using it. Maybe later when we get new uniforms

In case of Total War, are volunteers enough to keep up casualties? I think the British professional force was wiped out during the first year of the WW1 and had to be replaced by conscripts.

>>30019303

http://www.cato.org/pubs/fpbriefs/fpb-006.html

http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB9195.html

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/07-19-militaryvol_0.pdf

>30 seconds of google

>>30019392
Indeed it was.

Germans just took the fact that they may have up to 100k wonderfully-trained professional soldiers in case of invasion of France into account and modified their plans to have 5 or more times the amount of soldiers British could have(because, despite what they've publicly said - policemen weren't enough to stop them). When those soldiers died they've been replaced by 100% fresh recruits, some of them poorly trained, while Germany had a reservist base built during the last 40 years. Training they've received was in large part outdated but the minimal amounts they've had allowed them to be re-trained and used as replacement quicker.

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From my days as a conscript in the Danish army. Good times

>>30009704
Kek

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>>30013071
Militaerpoliti?

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>>30009635
Swedefag here, giving my two cents

>is THE way for a small and/or poor country to build a sizable army
Numbers is not everything in this day and age. Planes and tanks and a solid supply line are more important. And economic sustainiability.

Conscripted infantry suck, you can make them work by throwing them in to the woods and towns with rifles and anti tank missiles and such but that doesn't help you much in pushing back aggressors or helping your neighbors/allies do the same.

>prevents the military from being alienated from the general population by involving regular joes who would otherwise have nothing to do with the armed forces
People get alienated from conscription all the same. It wasn't uncommon to see advocates against military organization having members who are unhappy ex-conscripts who talk out of experience.

>turns boys into men
For better or worse, at least it makes people grow up faster.
>by instilling masculine values
kek
>and teaching useful skills
Knowing how to camouflage your poo in the forest will surely come in handy one day.

Finally, volunteer armies will always be better. Forcing someone to do something they don't want to do will always make the result be mediocre.
If you want to increase the number of people who are enlisted then you should focus on giving every citizen who wants to their part a chance to do it, or increase their reasons for doing it.

Conscription is only a good choice if the nations territorial security demands it, like in South Korea or Israel who depends on it for their very existence.

>>30019653
>he's naked again
>my feet are cold
>mirin' dat phimosis
>no homo tho
>the barracks smell like axe and ass
>he has terrible taste in porn mags
>tfw no wifi
>tfw gf is probably fucking someone else

>>30019520
Yes, captain obvious, unmotivated conscripts with shitty training perform worse than motivated professionals with decent training. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

>>30020654
Motivation and fitness is still a factor and with conscription you generally have to take the absolute lowest dregs while a professional army can simply say fuck off to a skelly or fatbody who is a general fuckup conscription has to take them and account for them

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>>30009857
These pics are from Vahipataljon, the Presidential Guard unit. M14 isnt a service weapon in that battalion. We go to the range with it once and after that we only see it on ceremonys or when standing guard in Kadriorg.

You are not gonna stand guard in pre ww1 uniform with a fucking galil or AK are you?

we dont have conscription in germany anymore.
now the army is made up of people from east germany who would be unemployed otherwise.
It is a problem and there ar even army officials who call it the "ossiisierung" of the army. Since these people arent the best and brightest the army is now running ad campaigns to attract young intelligent people this makes the people where in favor of the end of conscription mad because they say its advertising war and that the campaign isnt honest blabla.

So everything has happened as you said:
Army is alienated even more than it was before.
People who go to the army are just looking for a job and there arent enough.
But the worst part in my opinion is that a army made up of volunteers is an army that the civil population doesnt care about and that means that they dont care as much about what their military is doing anymore.

>>30020688
Aah popular misconception that professional armiea are fit fucks. There is out of shape people in both conscript and professional forces. Those who are out of shape are usually put in task that doesn't require that much fighting capacity. For example artillerymen and signalmen. You don't have to be a Navy Seal to do those tasks. A lot of tasks are something in which good soldier would be a waste.

>>30020688
Yeah, but that isn't really an apples to apples comparison. I think professional armies are better since they have less underperformers dragging the bar down. But if we compare conscripts with actual standards such as paras or divers, I'm fairly sure the actual differences are negligible. Those units only take volunteers and have stringent physical standards, after all.

>>30021109
Ahh I know that, you silly faggot. I'm saying that a professional army can be selective while conscripted armies cannot have that privilege. Obviously they aren't going to press a 200 pound depressive butterball into para becasue for the most part those specialist positions are sought after and voluntary,

>>30011208
Tell that to the rooftop Koreans who banded together and used the skills they learned in conscription to defend their stores and homes during the LA riots from looters and arsonists.

>>30019329
Can you please shoot me an email? I'm actually serious about buying when something comes up.

[email protected]

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>>30009774
russian army? lol k

-hitler in 1939

>>30020709
Imperial Guards do, tho.

>>30020688
There are requirements for conscripts, both in terms of background, fitness and education. The average levels of education among conscripts - among the NCO batch for sure - is higher than that of professional9 grunts since Uni students/graduates aren't exempt from the serving time but are less likely to contract as grunts. Militarily inclined will attend a MilCol instead and join the officer corps anyhow.

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>>30009635
>hazing and brutal initiation rituals
You'll end up in court, if you do this.
>goverment indoctrination
FDF is apolitical nowadays. See above. Lefties usually do civil service or go to jail, so they aren't seen there too often though.
>morale, training and gear are substandard compared to professional armies
Morale is high, because we are training to defend our country, not some political elite.
I see no reason, why/how training would be substandard.
Gear depends on your training. Frontline units get the latest and greatest and the rest older stuff. (Unless you're a sissi (ranger). Then it's the opposite.)
>getting shipped to some third-world shithole to fight and die for corrupt global elites
Won't happen. Only volunteers can be sent to peacekeeping operations.

All in all conscription is an excellent system for us at least.

t. a Finn

>>30011236
You're probably thinking Sweden.