The Rafale is Superior

What's the French word for "stupid vatnik" again?

>>29979311
>So even if the target is invisible to radar, the Rafale is still able to lock-on and engage the target with missiles out to 100 km

Thats interesting, considering it has no missile with a range that far :^)

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>>29979311

>But what about the Eurofighter and the Gripen, surely they can defeat the Rafale, right?

WRONG.

The Gripen is short-legged and it cannot carry a good payload. Meanwhile the Eurofighter is unable to perform air-to-ground missions and it has inferior electronics and EW capability compared to the Rafale.

>>29979311
>The Rafale is Superior
To the Mirage III, yes.

>>29979311

On the one hand this is a troll. On the other hand it does bring up an important point that I've noticed. The F-22 and -35 both give up a lot for EM stealth, but don't appear to have any thought given to IR stealth, meaning that anyone with an IRST can still tag them. The Russians are putting IRSTs on all their new planes.

I honestly think that stealth is going to end up being far less valuable than it has been sold as because of this. One more reasons I think that the F-35 is gonna be a turkey.

>>29979433
>The F-22 and -35 both give up a lot for EM stealth, but don't appear to have any thought given to IR stealth,


So you've read absolutely fucking nothing about either then

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Here we go again.

Aircraft thread? Aircraft thread.

>>29979439

Care to provide evidence that they have IR stealth?

>>29979449

That is a strange plane.

Looks like a fusion between a Mig-27 and a F-4 phantom.

>>29979465

SEPECAT Jaguar

shmexy plane

>>29979465

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPECAT_Jaguar

>>29979365

Well with a graphic that detailed, it seems you have a point.

Who can argue with:

Best pilot impression
Best effectiveness
Minimum expected capabilities achieved

Clearly the Rafale is best.

>>29979456
How about you read up on the subject rather than posting on /k/ about topics you clearly haven't researched

Even 10 seconds in google with "F-22 IR stealth" gives you multiple pages on it. Fuck off.

>>29979496
Funny thing is its the T1 Eurofighter, too.

>>29979449
NEEDS MORE DAKKA

>>29979311
>ITT french shill their frog plane

>>29979509

OK, I searched, the sources seem to be very split, a few saying "There's a something that have been done" and the rest saying "It'll be visible on IR."

>>29979509

The F-35 has no thermal stealth whatsoever. As soon as it gets within 100 km of the Rafale, it dies.

>>29979311
So...they can tell something is out there, but they can't lock onto or fire at it? Kinda makes it as useless as a one-legged man at an ass-kicking contest.

>>29979365
>that graph

Source: my ass

Well its good for the Rafale that jets have absolutely no way to cut off their engines mid-air and glide to avoid heat seeking missiles like the generations of jets before them.

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Losing with dignity has never been something the french could ever do.

>>29979365

That graph was from a Nordic aircraft selection wasn't?

>Meanwhile the Eurofighter is unable to perform air-to-ground missions

Load of shit, Eurofighter has been able to air-to-ground since 2006.

>>29979667
Thats because its a very old trial with T1 Eurofighters involved.

If it was anywhere near new it would have been the Gripen E/F, not Gripen C/D, too.

>>29979365

I love how all European planes looks nearly the same. If I didn't know better, I'd think that they were different versions of the same aircraft.

>>29979607
its from Switzerland tender fgt, this shit was all over /k/ for years now
how can you be this new ?

>>29979692
Euro aircrafts favor the delta wings and canards because they're designed to be interceptors, taking off from short runways

>>29979594

If they're using an IR missile they can.

>>29979641

Those are some tears lol.

>>29979764
Not at 100km they fuckin' can't.

How reasonable is this article? I don't know much about aircraft, but I'm wanting to know more.

https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2015/11/01/dassault-rafale-vs-eurofighter-typhoon/

>In air-to-air combat, Rafale is a superior dogfighter while Typhoon is superior at beyond visual range interception. Typhoon’s superiority at BVR combat is somewhat negated by its lack of MICA-class IR BVRAAM.

>Rafale is also superior air-to-ground platform, but both aircraft have superiority in certain weapons categories over each other, so either could be a better choice, depending on situation.

>>29979311
ITT: Butthurt honhonhons trying to make their overpriced and obsolete 4.5 gen plane relevant.

>>29979764
If there was a heat-seeker that could fire at more than a tenth of that range then it may be useful, so still as useful as a one-legged man at an ass-kicking contest.

Rafale already lights up like a Christmas tree so it won't be detecting anything but dirt.

>>29979813
Ay yo hol up.

No one beez mentioning the F35 yet.

>>29979433
They have large amounts of ir stealth you absoloute drooge

>>29979811
Total shit.

If you would like a very quick and obvious reason why;

> Typhoon’s superiority at BVR combat is somewhat negated by its lack of MICA-class IR BVRAAM.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASRAAM

>>29979811

That article is so full of shit I don't even know where to start. It paints itself as an unbiased and mutual "it depends" source but then makes numerous factual errors or pulls numbers straight out of its ass, usually in support of patently incorrect Rafale "facts". Fuck, they can't even spell "lose" correctly, they use "loose".

Here's one from an actual expert source and is genuinely even handed and considers both current and future capabilities separately.

https://hushkit.net/2015/12/18/typhoon-versus-rafale-the-final-word/

>>29979311
>Meanwhile the F-35's EODAS can reportedly detect IR signatures 1,900km away.

>>29979947
Thats not super relevant considering it was a Falcon-9 during takeoff.

Can detect the sun too, doesn't make it all that impressive.

>>29979968

>Baww Rafale is superior
>Everything else is irrelevant

Fuck off Dassault fag

>>29979968
Because saying a Rafale can detect another fighter at 100km, while omitting that is a rear view of an afterburner, is more honest.

>>29979968
And this domehow makes it inferior to to the Rafale's IRST? With the ranges modern aircraft work at, 100km is pretty fucking close.

Oh, and it only works in the Rafale's FRONT ARC, which means they have be directly facing the stealth plane, meaning they already somehow know the plane is there or they're just guessing.

>muh heat detector
>muh everything else sux
with that logic, if i have a heat detector on a pistol that never jams is it better than a rifle?

>>29980063
>>29980048
>>29980040

Jesus christ no need to knee-jerk into assuming I'm the delusional faggot that made this thread.

Merely pointing out detecting a solid rocket motor exhaust of a 200feet long rocket isn't super applicable.

>>29979311

You seem to be forgetting that F-35 will have a superior version of Meteor, Frog.

>>29979324
Stupide Ruskof
Ruskof attardé

>>29979326

That you know of*
Also
>Implying that the development of this technology won't shit all over our airforce

>>29979311
>The Rafale's frontal sensor can detect heat emissions from a planes engine from 100 km away.
Without additional information such as: conditions (head on or pursuit, target's engine mode) and what is the scan area of IRST this number it doesn't say much about tactical cabablites.

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sup

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>>29979311

>>29980364

No, there is no fancy super classified super French missile.

It has MICA, that is it. And MICA cannot go to 100km, it's more like 20-50km, depending on how you want its kinematics to survive for a hit, it's just an SRAAM.

>>29979449
Hello thiqq gurl. C'mon back it up.

>>29979825
Yes, they have. Fucking moron.

>>29979449
>overwing pylons
How? Why?

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>>29980425

>>29981750
Part of the "no realistic BVR" was making it so it was actually training for the frogs instead of a repeat of that 1 F-22 v 5 F-15 exercise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ7MwfcjCa0

>>29980371
Also without range data; when a target first appears, you don't know if it's something like an F-5 50km away or a 747 150km away. Most IRSTs rely on either the radar or an integrated laser range-finder. Radar doesn't help much against a stealth fighter though and laser range finders (even on jets like the Su-35) only have a max range of about 20km.

>>29981672
When you want more pylons but don't have enough wing.

It's not a bad idea though for light, rail-launched missiles.

>Rafale is better
>It can detect aircraft at 100km with IRST
>implying it has a BVR missile
>implying the F-35 and F-22 don't have kickass radars
>implyinging the range of the newest AMRAAMs don't curb stomp your "100km detections range*"
They'd be dead long before they were capable of detecting either the Lightning or the Raptor

frog pls go

*on sunny days with no clouds.

>>29982763
Not just that, but the F-35 also has way better IR systems with far superior FOV and range.

>>29979820
MICA IR = 50km

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>>29979311

Sooo we F-28 Tomcat 2 now?

>>29980138
cut down version you dindu, also
>Implying Raytheon won't lobby hard to prevent Meteor ever getting integrated so they can get more sales for their inferior AIM-120D

>>29982341
Yeah, but the Frogs are cunts when it comes to this kind of thing.

I'm really not surprised they didn't want to show them too much after all they did when the IAF brought out their Su-30MKIs was try and gather as much intelligence on it as possible at the detriment to the overal exercise.

>>29979311
Good plane, probably the best we ever built. But I doubt it can really outmatch the avionics of the F-22. The Raptor is the farsighted sniper of all warplanes.

>>29979667
It's from the Swiss airforce deal.
The Rafale still got dumped in favor of the Gripen. Imagine that.

>>29981750
>(except the UK, with whom they did not fight even in the BFMs)

Anyone know the reason behind this?

>>29985805
They have now, including BVR.

Probably took the time with lesser opponents before stepping it up to real ones :^)

>>29979311
Hmm, how great that the new Gripen that was showed today has an uppgraded even better IRST of that type.

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>>29985805

UK gets to fight with.against Raptors very often by comparison (RAF Lakenheath etc often has visits and the RAF goes to Red Flag waaaay more than others), more than any other nation. It's not entirely unusual for them, but for other countries like France or whereever, they get priority if they have the chance.

That and because the UK is gaining 5th gen very soon, they're more interested in training WITH 5th gens rather than AGAINST them, to help build understanding on operating alongside them for their own forces.

>>29985295

>Implying Raytheon won't lobby hard to prevent Meteor ever getting integrated so they can get more sales for their inferior AIM-120D

Too late, Meteor's already been set for integration, and F-35 has a two-way datalink.

Sorry Frogs, but one-way is just so last decade.

>>29979509
I checked and what I read made me wonder if you understood what is written about the topic. Probably not.

>In the frequency range at which most simple detectors work (one to five microns), and at typical hot-metal temperatures, the exponential dependency will be typically near eight rather than four, and so at a particular frequency corresponding to a specific detector, the radiation would be proportional to the product of the emissivity and temperature to the eighth power.

Anyone with a little insight knows that 1 - 5 um is old tech. Also it is actually 3 - 5 um when you take the transparency of the atmosphere into account. A 3 - 5 um sensor would have been neat - 25 years ago. Not today.

>This pattern must be played against the frequency range available to detectors, which typically covers a band from one to 12 microns.

This statement is problematic on so many grounds it is hard to know where to start. Suffice to say if this is a design parameter, the aircraft is highly visible to truly up to date sensor technology.

>>29986892
>oo late, Meteor's already been set for integration
[citation needed]

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>>29986936

From F-35 presentations approved for release. UK has made no secret that Meteor will be coming to their F-35s.

I'll accept your source of it being blocked by Raytheon now.

>>29987012
So nothing concrete, just some powerpoint slide _proposing_ it could be done by 2025

They would need a dedicated version of the Meteor to integrate it into the internal bays of the F-35.

Also the Eurofighter will stay the air superiorty fighter of the RAF for the future.

>>29987125

If you learn to read, I said it's set for integration. UK wants it, MBDA has said they'll do it and has designed one to fit in. All it takes now is for the Block 4 process to roll around to actually do it. It's set and ready to go. It will be coming, because that's what the UK has set out to have, hence why they haven't ordered or bought into the AIM-120D.

Raytheon won't be lobbying shit. The UK just recently told them to get to fuck when they tried to lobby against Spear with SDB-II that didn't match the requirements at all. They don't hold sway in the UK like they do in the US.

So how do you guys see the post 2020 MLU for the Rafale ?

I'd like to see them make a ground attack and interceptor variant.

>>29987182
The way F-35 is britbongs are completely at mercy of US and LM on this one, they can't do the integration themselves, everything has to go through US and if Raytheon manages to delay the integration with just few years (~2023 based on the timetable you just posted is already fucking late) Brits would be forced to either adopt to AIM-120D's or fly without missiles

>>29987259
You're saying this as if AIM-120Ds are bad or not on parity with current Meteor specs.

>>29979904
>https://hushkit.net/2015/12/18/typhoon-versus-rafale-the-final-word/

> Justin Bronk is a Research Analyst of Military Sciences at the Royal United Services Institute
> Main source for the eurofighter part

sure looks unbiased to me senpai

>>29987259

Not late. The UK has a significant stock of already existing AIM-120's that have have their service out till then anyway.

ANd I'd like to see one shred of evidence that Raytheon is planning to do that, or will be able to do that, especially so given losing MBDA is basically losing a fuckton of custom for Lockheed that it wouldn't get back. It's not in any way in Lockheed's interests to bend to that.

>>29987341

Kindly point out the part where he's wrong then.

The only part of debate is his mentioning of 20km for the MICA missile, without mentioning that it can be more like 50km, but with less kinematics.

Everything else he says is logical. Big fans of either aircraft tend to find it a fair analysis, RUSI has a damn good rep for a reason.

Certainly a better source that the other link which just flat out made shit up.

>>29987259
>everything has to go through US and if Raytheon manages to delay the integration with just few years

Uhhh, not when you have the source code.

>>29987316
>You're saying this as if AIM-120Ds are bad or not on parity with current Meteor specs.

Which would be true.

The D can only dream about the no escape zone of the Meteor.

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>>29987239
You mean the F4 that'll be coming early 2020's or the later larger MLU they have been talking about?

>>29987259
>at mercy of US and LM on this one
Well, everyone is. No one outside the US has access to the software to a degree that they can undertake the integration work themselves.

>>29987971

Not true.

UK and BAE have access to the source code for that very reason.

>>29988213
The whole? Or just an interface made and exposed to them for the specific purposes?

I was involved in offset negotiations a few years back and the software was locked down tight.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-lockheed-fighter-exclusive-idUSTRE5AO01F20091125

>>29988213
They don't have access to radar code

>Rafale
>50000 ft service ceiling
>No Stealth
>No BVR

>F-22
>60000 ft service ceiling
>Stealth
>BVR

The Rafale has no stealth, starts out at low energy and can't shoot farther than its nose. One (1) F-22 can probably shoot 10 Rafales down.

>>29988399
What would be /k/ without the 12 years old boys audience?

Are there missiles which work like SACLOS anti-tank missiles? You know like using the plane's IRST to track and guide the missile instead of the built-in heat seeker which I imagine is inferior?

>>29988458
Point out which parts of my facts were wrong.

>>29988260

I stand corrected, but jesus that whole affair must have caused some serious upset.

>>29988540
>caused some serious upset
That is the understatement of the day!

I cannot find the details anymore but a US senator lorded it mightily over the F-35 customers and spake unto them that they just had to buy and fly and not think about the rest. The US has never been famous for subtle diplomacy.

Another part I no longer can find much about are the different models. And I don't mean STOL etc but rather export and non-export models. Back in the day it was said that only the US and Israel would be entrusted to buy the "real" aircraft. Other countries would have to pay extra (no, seriously!) to pay for development of lower tech and lower performance alternatives to the real thing. You could say this didn't sit too well with various countries.

And in the end we just gave up the negotiations; we couldn't get anywhere.

>>29988987

That's... extremely depressing.

Certainly understandable why any info on the different models has been "scrubbed" from the internet. The fact that Israel was the only other one considered to be trusted with the "real" aircraft is a very bitter pill.

If this was intended to turn me against the aircraft and the program, it certainly is working.

So effectively the tier system has only meaning in workshare for the lower end models?

>>29988464

SACLOS provides no advantage in air to air, in fact it's detrimental. It's used on ATGM's because it's cheaper than semi-active/active homing/IR homing.

When you are dealing with planes that cost about $100 million, there's no reason to cheap out on the missile seekers.

>>29988464
In theory you could guide any missile with a two way datalink in such a fashion.

But Meteor/AIM-120 should already be going pitbull by that point.

>>29979311
>So even if the target is invisible to radar, the Rafale is still able to lock-on and engage the target with missiles out to 100 km.

***In perfect operating conditions with completely new equipment (those sensors degrade over hours of use).

>>29989116
Workshare or offset contracts seem to be handed out only for mechanical parts and non-flying hardware and software systems such as route planning, cabling, wing parts etc.

Also these contracts are hard to come by and from what I can see nowhere near true offset since L-M aims to secure the longevity of the project by placing orders in every single US state and territory. And that will easily be at the expense of overseas customers.

>>29988464
In the networked vision of the future a detection by IR from a fighter will be able to cue an AA battery elsewhere, allowing them to keep radar off until actual firing or even later.

There is also intelligence value in detecting all targets even if beyond reach of the platform carrying the sensor suits. And platform here can be anything from a fighter to a main battle tank and a ship.

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EOTS is the future.

Chinese J-20 can detect F-22's IR emissions at 110km and B-2's at 150km.

>>29989447

That number has to be ass on if the range for tanks is 25-30 and the range for F-22 is 110.

If an F-22 is showing you it's rear, you've already got more than a couple missiles incoming.

>>29989492
*pssst*
[spoiler]It's the air-friction due to speed[/spoiler]

>>29989359

Do you have any idea of how many models there are?

Honestly, I don't want to believe it since I'm reading this on 4chan from a poster who hasn't provided anything in the way of proofs, but this sounds like one of those reasonable shit things.

I already was suspicious why the F-35 can exported to so many nations without any fear of technology transfer into the wrong hands.

>>29989447
I very much doubt that.

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>>29989447
>J-20 has EOTS and EODAS
>F-22 doesnt

Why cant America?

>>29989447
>frog's thread isn't even totally dead yet
>Chink's already trying to cannibalize it

you gooks'll eat anything

>>29989599
Frogs and Chinks are best friends desu.

Frogs sold more advanced weapons to China than even the Russians or the Ukraine.

>>29987745
And Meteors can only dream of an AIM-120's offbore.

Apples and oranges.

>>29989621
>They even eat their best friends

brutal

>>29980425
>Struggle to obtain lock in knife fight range
>Have to nearly stall to keep lock
>All while the Raptor has a luneburg lens installed

>>29989542
>Do you have any idea of how many models there are?
No, I don't know anymore. BTW Israel tends to get their own variations too, just look at how they modified their F-16's.

>Honestly, I don't want to believe it since I'm reading this on 4chan from a poster who hasn't provided anything in the way of proofs, but this sounds like one of those reasonable shit things.
Yes, that is a weakness of being an anon. I have little in the way of proof and I hope my bitterness doesn't shine through too much. After all the company closed.

>I already was suspicious why the F-35 can exported to so many nations without any fear of technology transfer into the wrong hands.
The backstory starts with the Iranian revolution that left the ayatollahs with some very nice US fighters that Uncle Sam really, really wish they didn't have or better could not fly. The Iranians should not be underestimated and have been able to acquire spares and parts they should not have gotten so the fighters are still flying. The solution is of course remote control shutdown. And the F-35 is basically a flying computer system with computers and microcontrollers everywhere. So with no source code available and a remote shutdowns (which has bever been confirmed) the US can be fairly safe against unwanted technology transfers.

>>29989116
Israel is the reason the F-22 was not offered for export, the fact that it is providing much of its own electronics for its F-35's tells you it is not getting the 'real deal'.

>>29989833
Not that fag, but the IDF always does that.

>>29989690

It makes sense.

I remember being told a story from a journalist about all the equipment that was left at Mehrabad airport.