Nuclear holocaust

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>>29865835
Not when you win :^)

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>>29865835
Whatever works.

Yes, and? It was either that or do it ourselves and lose hundreds of thousands of good men fighting self-sacrificing little japs. Japan got off easy. An invasion and occupation would have been an order of magnitude more destructive.

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>>29865835
Everyone needs a hobby.

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>>29865835
>Killing civilians is an act of terrorism, remember?

>>29865835
Deal with it, nip.

>>29865870
That is some incredible footage.

>>29865835
Are you the same chicom from before?
You'r posting style is very very similiar.

>>29865870
Saved.
I disagree with it on a moral level but that's some grade a footage.

>>29865835
Fuck the japs. Two bombs weren't enough.

>>29865835
I like that everyone focuses on the atom bombs as though they were the only civilians the Americans killed.

Like fuck the several times as many civvies firebombed to death in every other major city in Japan. At least their deaths were completely pointless.

Only the ones that ended the war are bad.

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>>29865849
>I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal. Fortunately, we were on the winning side.

Say what you want about the man, but he knew what the score was.

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both the US and Japan played dirty. All major armies play dirty, this is war. The US won, so it was fine.

When the Japanese owe up to all their equally horrible abuses, maybe we will too.

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>>29865953
goddammit, I fucking love curtis lemay.
I wish we had a leader like him in the military still, all we have left is mattis.
>>29865835
>civilians
>literally all called upon to help in killing america or were involved with building shit for the war
also, if we had went with the other plan - invading japan, both sides would've suffered ~1mil combatant casualties from just the invasion alone. not counting civies or aftermath.

>>29865835
Here's the thing, as my understanding of 1945-era Japanese politics and stratagem was.

In a nutshell the military'd make the Japanese people fight, and kill any who didn't. The only alternative to the atom bomb was an invasion, and well, let's run the numbers.

160,000 died from the A-bombs. 5-10 million people would've died on the Japanese side alone if we'd have chosen to invade. Another 5mil on the American side.

Literally kill one to save a thousand.

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American anger didn't nuke Japan. It wasn't American hatred or intollerance that nuked Japan.

It was apathy. We just stopped giving a fuck.
>>29865988
Fuck that. Why bother when we have Russia, an actual worry to deal with?

>>29865835
We didn't give a shit about nuking the Japanese and who was going to tell us no?

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>>29866001
Its the new hip rage yo. Japan attacks the US, the US defends itself.

Literal victim shaming.

>>29865835
not if they're japs

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>>29865883
>>29865905
Axis niggas need to learn. Talk shit, get hit.

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>tfw enola gay and bockscar will never fly again
>tfw they will never be reunited
life is suffering
>>29865861
this.
we ran out of fucks to give.
we reached critical mass, and said fuck it, glass the bastards.
plus, it was a science experiment. a giant one.
we didn't know what the fuck it was gonna do, and we tested it.

I was wondering, we know what happens if a nuclear plant gets fucked by looking at chernobyl but what happens to the area if we intentionaly use a modern nuclear weapon?

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>>29866049
Shit gets fucked up

>>29866049
>>29866054
What i mean is would modern nuclear weapons do pretty much the same thing to the surrounding area as chernobyl on a larger or smaller scale?

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>>29866058
what do you mean by that

>>29866058
Both a larger and smaller scale. On a larger scale thanks to the immense amount of raw energy released obliderating everything, but a smaller scale because places like Hiroshima and Nagasaki are already safe to live in again, whereas Chernobyl will be uninhabitable for centuries.

>>29866058
No. The fission products from the detonation have shorter half lives than the ones at chernobyl. There are more intense, but burn themselves out quickly, in layman's terms. Modern nukes are much cleaner as well, producing less fusion products.

>>29866058
well, kinda but not really.
if you're in the destruction radius, you pretty much get vaporized.
but that's (relatively) close to the detonation point.
further out, you get flattened buildings and shit. looks like a F5 tornado whipped through the area.
even further out, you get the chernobyl effects.
broken windows, busted roofs, shit like that, but no flattened buildings.
and of course, in all of these areas, fallout.
but I'm not oppenheimer, so if we can summon him, you can get a better answer.

>>29866061
So we know what happened when the older nukes dropped on japan, but the modern ones would act different. We know what happened when chernobyl exploded and that one is more recent.
Would a modern nuclear weapon going off produce the same kind of environmental problems as chernobyl but on a bigger or smaller scale? So the whole making an exclusion zone and fucking the environment up for living things.

>>29866078
if mushroom clouds are rising over and around populated areas, the last thing on anyones mind is an exclusion zone or poor bambi

>>29866078
It wouldn't, because the reaction is cleaner than a nuclear meltdown. The most intense fission products would be around for a few weeks or months, but would decay into stabler compounds much sooner than those in the chernobyl exclusion zone.

My only qualm with the use of the atom bombs during WW2 were the targets. They specifically selected cities that were not only densely populated with civilians, but highly flammable. What the blast didn't kill, the flames would later. Why not drop it on a less populated stretch nearby? The harbor? It's not like they were worried about destroying the environment.

I doubt Japan would have cared if 1,000 or 1,000,000 died - the fact that a fireball kilometers high just appeared out of fucking nowhere would give the hint, no?

>>29866078
Chernobyl ddn't really explode
It just sort of melted.

>>29866095
it was more about bombing japan's military infrastructure, factories/depots and the like

>>29866095
well, here's some reasons;
>those cities had militarily valuable assets
a torpedo factory, for one.
>civies are just soldiers in disguise
japan didn't give a fuck. they'd come into schools, businesses, houses, and just tell people that they're part of the japanese army now. those that didn't comply got shot.
>we wanted to see what it would do
yeah, the atomic bombings were kind of a giant science experiment.
we dropped it on a densely populated area because we wanted to see what it would do to said area. keep in mind that before then, we had just melted mannequins and shit in the desert and we had no idea of the hellfire we had created.

>>29866024
>we didn't know what it was going to do
>what was Trinity
I agree with the apathy part, but would like to expand on your point. The Manhattan Project was started as a counter to Nazi atomic fuckery that Einstein and Bohr alerted us to. As such, we then spent a SHITLOAD of money developing a weapon that came too late for it's intended target.
We had to justify the billions in 40s currency and infrastructure devoted to the program somehow. Plus Truman wanted to signal to the Soviets that we'd have a way of dealing with their greed for land, should they ever present as much of a threat as they had under Stalin, or worse, what Trotsky had planned.

>>29866126
I like your expansion.
however, trinity was just one test on some mannequins and houses and shit.
I mean, we knew it would fuck shit up on a massive scale, but we didn't really know exactly what it would do to japan, or live people for that matter.

>>29865835
How do Germans explain the Blitz? Killing civilians is an act of terrorism, remember?

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dumping my cold war shit.

>>29865835
Targeting a city that is the hq for 1/2 of the defense of Japan and the second city that had escaped bombing due to poor conditions =/= terrorism

More deaths would have been caused by firebombing than by the nukes

>>29865835
with a chuckle and a smile on our faces

>>29865861
/thread

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>>29865835
seems fitting

>>29865930
this

>>29865930
we only had one more bomb, a fat man type.
according to paul tibbetts, the pilot of enola gay, curtis lemay himself called paul and asked if they had another bomb.
paul said yes, lemay told him to get it on tinian and ready to go.
they got the bomb to california, ready to make the hop to hawaii and then tinian, and the war ended that day.
we were so close, anon.

>>29865885
Wouldn't he be a Jap? Chinese would consider the two bombs merely a good start.

>>29865835
[WEEABOO INTENSIFIES]

>>29865995
>5-10 million people would've died on the Japanese side alone if we'd have chosen to invade. Another 5mil on the American side.
This is the stupidest thing I've read on /k/ this week.

>>29865861
This desu baka senpai

>>29866244
I'm crying

>>29866275
it was high, but not that high.
roughly 1.5mil on either side of just combatants, just in the invasion.
that's not counting civies or the occupation, or the aftermath.

>>29866280
That's the second most retarded thing. US suffered 200k casualties in Overlord. It would not suffer 8 times more in just KIA in an invasion against a far, far weaker enemy.

>>29866263
Maybe he's a falseflagging chink who just wants to shitpost about japs.

>>29866292
those were the estimates that the JCOS came up with, nigger.
don't blame me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

>>29866292
The US printed up 500k purple hearts in anticipation of causalities. We can talk about whether Japan would have really put up that much of a fight, but the US certainly thought they would at the time.

>>29865835
Not at the time.

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How do sushi niggers explain the massacre of Nanking? Killing civilians is an act of terrorism remember.

>>29866292
but in overlord the americans liberated france, occupied lands, this time they would have been invadeing the enemy's own homeland, resistance would be way harder

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Yes.

Japanese did nothing wrong

>>29865835
We all know this is bait, go away OP.

Look at the numbers for Operation Downfall on Wikipedia.


The Japanese had 35 MILLION, the allies had 6 million. The Japanese were ready to arm every able bodied citizen. There were a few high up military and political leaders that wanted to drag out the war to negotiate better terms.

The casualty estimates were absolutely atrocious. The couple hundred thousands that died in the atomic bombs were literally drops in the bucket compared to the human costs of a full scale invasion.

To this day America has such a surplus of Purple Hearts, that if a soldier gets wounded today he gets a Purple Heart minted more than half a century ago.. They made like half a million of those intended for use during the invasion of Japan, and they still wouldn't have had enough.

>>29865835
military targets were attacked, cottage industry was japan's means of production, and the japs had been targeting civies since before the US go into WWII.

If you are young, just tell me and I'll understand. blanket statements are for the simple minded.

Would YOU never attack civilians if you'd been in charge? Do you think all attacks on enemy civilians are equally reprehensible?

Is there never a point when, hypothetical, actual good guys attack civilians?

>>29866805
>The Japanese had 35 MILLION, the allies had 6 million.
Japs had about 40 divisions of actual military, and most of them were untrained conscripts with barely any equipment.

>The Japanese were ready to arm every able bodied citizen.
They weren't even capable of arming every soldier.

>>29866126
Real quick, what did Trosky have planned?

>>29865861
Japanomerican here. Crude but truthful. Check out Men Behind the Sun for more lulz.

https://youtu.be/doxI1F5fojg

>>29866275
Probably higher for the Japanese side, lower for the American side.

>>29865835
Total war.

>>29865870
>and we shall see
It needs a bit at the end where it shows him again saying "Yup, it works."

>>29866078
Chernobyl's explosion, while it was indeed an explosion, was not the same as an actual nuclear weapon detonation. Nukes are "cleaner" if that makes sense.

>>29865835
http://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/bombing-of-hiroshima-and-nagasaki/videos/paul-tibbets-on-dropping-the-atomic-bomb

get shrekd

>>29865835
We spent days dropping leaflets telling you faggots that we were eradicating both of those cities off the face of the earth. If your ancestors were stupid enough to stay, they deserved what they got.

>>29865835
Hiroshima had military targets, Nagasaki had industrial ones. I don't relish it like some of the edgier posters here but it was a necessary evil to end the war and forestall the next one.

>>29865835
Better question

Why is genocide/total war suddenly a bad thing? Humans have been doing it for thousands of years and now suddenly it's bad to try and cripple your enemy beyond recovery?

What changed?

>>29868442
He was going to shave his whole body, grease up, and do an interpretive dance on live TV.

>>29870357
white people were involved and anything white people do these days is racist and wrong, even if it's right.

>>29870357
Nuclear bombs...

I wonder how some can still pretend the A-bombs were completely irrelevant when the shock of them still overshadows almost everything else about the Pacific to this day.

>>29870216
>speaking chinese

>>29870316
High pressure steam explosion I believe. And you know how boiling water is in a pressure vessel, once that pressure releases, more it flashes to steam and furthers the explosion...

>>29866058
No.

>>29865835
>WMD's are classed as chemical, nuclear and otherwise mass destruction
>Japan killed 1.9 million civilians in chemical weapons tests
>less than 500k japanese civilians died the whole war
>if Japan lost as many civilians as their soldiers were responsible for killing in WW2, the word "japanese person" would be in history books only

double standard

>>29865861
>hurr why u soldiers raping and killing in a war!
>Let's bomb your civilians to teach you a lesson!
And this is why all burgers need to die

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>>29870946

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>>29870946

>>29870247

Yeah we were expecting about a million losses just on our side and we were beating the Japanese 4 to 1 island hopping. There's no reason to think that ratio wouldn't hold or expand considering Japan's situation was rapidly deteriorating at the time. Food, materiel, and experienced manpower were dwindling. Not to mention there would have been a whole hell of a lot more civilian casualties. The truth is the bombs probably saved millions.

>>29866280
The 5-10mil was casualties- I got casualties and fatalies mixed up there, my bad. I can concede that much. Taking civilians into account would get that number up there.

>>29866292
There's a difference between driving an occupying force out and invading a mainland where the civilians are going to be made to fight, and the (terribly armed) local military will fight to the death, rather than surrender.

You don't know how an invasion works, or how an invasion of a hostile power differs from forcibly entering a country and driving out an occupying force.

>>29870357
It isn't for a lot of irrevelant third world countries. It's something made by Europeans full of guilt

>>29865835
If we were to invade Japan, it end up like the Paraguayan War but wih women and children included and on a massive scale

>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraguayan_War

>>29870946

GTFO europiss you aren't welcome on this board

>>29865835
To protect our people because

American lives > Enemy lives

>>29871623

>this is what amerilards actually believe

literally a third world mentality...oh wait

>>29871173
>You don't know how an invasion works, or how an invasion of a hostile power differs from forcibly entering a country and driving out an occupying force.
Please, tell me "how an invasion works." Tell me one invasion of a homeland by the US army that ended with million+ GIs KIA. Or, if you can, come up with one example where the invading US army ended with 100k+ GIs KIA.
Or, alternatively, stop being retarded. Japan was many magnitudes worse at fighting than Germany. Its people were starving and malnourished. What small actual military forces it had were isolated and without any semblance of strategic mobility. There is no reason except retardation to believe that starving Japanese schoolgirls with bamboo sticks would magically be able to damage the US more than the Wehrmacht could.

>>29865835
It's you or me. that is the ultimate law of war. Everything else is patrician nonsense. I keep mine alive and kill as many of you as I have to in order to secure my objectives.

>>29871654
>caring about enemy lives during a war that youve been fighting for 3 years, especially when they refuse to surrender
enjoy your ameritard boogyman, cuck

>>29870946
Butthurt Nip detected.

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>>29871654
>why aren't they suicidal, self-loathing cuckolds like us

Europeans in a nutshell.

>>29866262
What city would they have dropped it on?

>>29871672
>especially when they refuse to surrender
as a fellow american, you're lack of historical knowledge pains me

>>29871672
>>29871681

Russia will smite you fat retard murderers down with the help of the sons of Europa you fat clapburgers will pay and you will all die painfully

>>29871695
Okay, why don't you show me any source that says the Japanese were willing to surrender unconditionally before the atomic bombs.

>I pigeonhole views that are different from mine as ignorance, but refuse to examine primary sources

>>29871700
heh cant wait for the responses to this

>>29871700
If Russia didn't do it in the 50s when they were at the height of their power, they aren't going to do shit now.

The US is far, far more dominant than we were when we nuked Japan. When we did that, the USSR had a 4-1 advantage over the US in men and armor.

>>29871688
Kokura probably.

>>29871695
Im not american senpai, just defending their actions

>>29871711

Nice argument burn in hell american yankee

>>29871707
truman's autobiography

>i attack people without doing my own research

faggot.

>>29871731
Come on bruh atleast try
>babbys first b8

>>29871718

>we are dominant

Topkek this is what clapburgers actually believe

>>29871732
Source it then.

Come on.

I fucking dare you, find me anything, any historical source that shows that the Japanese High Command were willing to surrender unconditionally.

You won't, because it didn't happen.

>>29871738

Nice argument fatass, go stuff your face with burger and coca cola.

>>29871725
dropping atom bombs on a nation that has already been beat, that can not attack anymore, solely to deter the advancing russians, is not something particularly defensible.

at least not in human terms, but i'm sure you live life on the ragged edge.

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>>29871700
>>29871731
>>29871740
>the shantytown of russia
>"we still of superpower u will respeck us or reap our might"

>>29871530

best logical argument
the bomb prevented a drawn out guerilla war that would have decimated japan's mainland much more drastically and would have cost japan the ability to rebuild. the civilian population would have been wrecked if there was an invasion.

shock and awe prevented what would have quickly turned into a genocide

>>29871750
yeah, i'm going to fax over the book now.

faggot.

>>29871770

Clapburger lose war to rice and goat farmers and make shitty airplane and tranny soldiers america is weak.

>>29871761
It stopped them from having an excuse to land grab, boat on over, and rape and pillage like they already had in europe.

Better thousands dead that hundreds of thousands dead, raped, and under russian rule. Which would have skullfucked japans culture, people, amd economy for ages.

>>29871788
>he doesn't have a digital camera or a scanner
>he expects me to believe that something that historically important, from a primary source, isn't on any academic website

I graciously accept your defeat.

>>29871761
>>"dropping atom bombs on a nation that has already been beat, that can not attack anymore, solely to deter the advancing russians, is not something particularly defensible."
>a government that has ordered the armed forces to fight until the very end, that has been training civilians to use crude weapons as part of suicide attacks, a government that didn't surrender after being offered terms of surrender after the first nuclear attack" ftfy
how noble, more americans and japanese should of died instead of getting nuked to end the conflict immedietly. Youre right, its pretty retarded to use the option with a lesser amount of casualties

>>29871802
Why did you use perfect English sentences before but now you use broken english fragments?
>largest landmass country lost to kebabs armed with stinger missles

>>29871788
I have the book.
What page.

>>29871893

I'm a different person you fucking idiot ameritard

>be american
>be fat
>have less freedom than Europe
,>get shot by Mexicans and niggers

>>29865835
wow a little late what about the fire bombings what about Dresden what about a lot of other shit the nukes were small time in the list of crimes commited during world war two what about the Japanese war criminals America sheltered from trial a lot of the unit 731 officers got off with no punishment compared to their german contemporaries

>>29871903
OPPIE WITH THE CALL OUT

BANTZ'D
A
N
T
Z
'
D

>>29871908
Yeah im sure senpai, but explain to me why were fat and aparently lesser than Almighty Russia but vatniks are poor and malnourished?

>>29871911
>he thinks dresden was a war crime

>>29871903
OH SHIT NIGGER

>amerilards
>burgerclaps
>go stuff your face with a burger and coca cola fatass
Is that all you guys have? Thats it?

>>29871964
Theyre still salty over getting btfo in the cold war, and all of the warsaw pact joining up with us. Maybe theyre jealous over something else, who knows.

>>29871695
>as a fellow american, you're lack of historical knowledge pains me
I can say the same for you. The Japanese government was not some monolithic entity and they certainly didn't all want peace before the bombs. Read The Shock of the Atomic Bomb and Japan's Decision to Surrender by Sadao Asada, he uses primary sources from the Japanese government.

>>29871964
Ever had a homeless person insult you? Same deal
>Fat ass! I bet you can afford food fatty!
>Why don't you go back to work you fucking employed person!

>>29872163
I bet you wear clean clothes and shower regularly too

>>29865835
There were no civilians in Japan

>>29872302
fucking faggot i bet you get to decide what you eat

>>29871656
Nazi-boo please shut the fuck up

>>29871656
>angry nip or asspained europoor still at it

>>29865835
Yup, no cilivians died in Pearl Harbor, you're right, we are horrible

>>29865835
There are no such thing as civilians in war, only combatants and casualties.

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#americanterrorism
#neverforget

>>29865835
The winners don't have to explain shit.

>>29871831
>this

Japan is committing suicide over the mild amount of rape they received from the us, imagine how fucked up they'd be if they were colossal raped by Russia.

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>>29866275
>>29866292
The same shit was told to Marines about to invade Tarawa and Peleliu. "It's gonna be easy guys the nips ain't gotta chance!"

The Japanese had very good fire discipline, were heavily entrenched and would lie in wait until they could inflict the most casualties. The existence of lava tubes under volcanic islands (including the Japanese archipelago) allowed them to hide large amounts of supplies to hold out for long periods of time. They killed tens of thousands of Americans for every little speck of sand out in the Pacific we landed on. To think they would have given up at their fucking homeland without a fight is what is retarded here.

Hundreds of thousands of people, including civilians (most of whom were forced to kill their families and then themselves by the IJA), were killed in the battle of Okinawa. The closer we got to the Japanese mainland, resistance didn't give, it stiffened.

Casualties from Operation Downfall would have been catastrophic. Not as high as expected, but it definitely would have killed more than the bombs. Plus, Operation Downfall included plans to use the bombs anyway to stem the inevitable Japanese counterattack, irradiating people from both sides.

>>29867483
Don't have standard-issue weapons? Force kids and senior citizens to fight with muskets, ice picks, and bamboo sticks, and tell them their god, the emperor, demands they die honorably for them. That's what was planned.

>>29870946
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were targeted due to their military infrastructure. Pick up a book, faggot. See pic related.

>>29871695
>Leaflet raids telling civilians to GTFO
Japanese ignore it
>First bomb falls
Japan refuses to surrender
>Second bomb falls
Higher-ups still refuse to surrender
>Emperor Hirohito orders surrender
MILITARY COUP! Surrender is such a foreign, dishonorable, and heretical concept that we are willing to kill the man who we consider a living god so we won't surrender!
>Military coup fails
Japan finally surrenders

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>>29870946
Get fucked you pansy pinko commie.

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>>29871903
OOOOOOOOOOOOH SHIT!

>>29873667

Thanks for the backup.

The bombs saved lives by ending the war quicker than the alternatives.

>>29871903
>>29871913
>>29871953
>>29873750
STILL NO RESPONSE, FUKKIN ETERNALLY BTFO JUST KILL YOURSELF NOW

>>29873667
>Tarawa
1700 dead
>Peleliu
2300 dead
When you're cherrypicking tough battles and counting KIAs in the low thousands, you are not exactly making a good case for million+ estimated KIA.

Let's have a look at how these fearsome Japs fought in some of the other battles/campaigns
>Imphal
5 Brit divisions suffer 12k casualties, mostly wounded and sick.

>Kohima
3 Brit divisions suffer 4000 casualties, mostly wounded and sick.

>luzon
10k KIA out of 300k.

Japs were not some superhuman killing machines who could wipe out 100+ US army divisions with ice picks, you fucking morons. US suffered 400k deaths total in all of WW2 while taking Italy, France, half of Germany, North Africa, and all of the Pacific. In the process, the US army faced 2 mil+ battle hardened German troops with MG42s and tanks. Some 30 Jap divisions with barely any ammo and a bunch of housewives with sticks weren't going to completely kill off the entire US army in existence at the time.

amazing Jap resistance cont.

>Guam
3k KIA out of 60k

>Tinian
300 KIA out of 40k

>Angaur
260 KIA out of 10k

>Makin
60 KIA out of 6000

>Kwajalein
142 KIA out of 46k

>Eniwetok
313 KIA out of 2 regiments

>Saipan
3500 KIA out of 70k

Yeah it's totally reasonable to expect the entire US army to die based on these experiences.

>>29874064
You're missing the point, even 1 more casualty is too many when you can just flatten the enemy's cities until they submit. If they wanted to avoid this, they shouldn't have started the war or surrendered unconditionally, as the US made clear was the only option.

also,
>ignoring Iwo Jima and Okinawa
>both of which are tiny compared to what Japan would have been

>>29866078
How dirty a nuke is depends on how far above the ground you detonate it. I'm not an expert on it but generally the higher up you detonate the bomb the cleaner the result. The lower down you detonate it, the more shit gets drawn up into the cloud, material drawn directly into the mushroom cloud becomes fallout which is the primary cause of long lasting radiative pollution.
Chernoble wasn't a nuclear explosion, the explosion was caused by pressure building up inside the reactor. A lack of coolant pressure caused steam to build up inside of the reactor, steam doesn't absorb enough heat and so the reactor temperature kept rising, which boiled more water, which created more steam. Eventually so much water was flash boiled that the pressure blew the top off of the reactor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15YgdrhrCM8

>>29874113
>You're missing the point
I am not trying to argue either side of the nuke debate. I just think it's utterly fucking retarded to claim that 1.5 mil would have been KIA in an invasion of Japan. There is absolutely no evidence that Japan was capable of inflicting that much damage, and numbers show that the US did not suffer unduly high KIA in the Pacific campaign.

>>ignoring Iwo Jima and Okinawa
>Okinawa
12k dead out of 500k. It's the Japs who suffered ungodly KIA in that battle, not the US.
Iwo Jima is the exception, not the rule.

>>both of which are tiny compared to what Japan would have been
There's no logical reason to suppose this to be the case. Japanese weren't magically going to sprout machine guns from their arms just because big bad Americans were coming to kill their emperor. The small army they had would've been destroyed piecemeal and the rest would have surrendered.

>okinawa
Actually it looks like KIA is lower than 10k for ground troops. About 4k KIA are navy.

>>29874242
>and the rest would have surrendered.
Right because the Japanese were well known for giving up when things were hopeless. Oh wait...

>>29865997
Fuck is that pic?

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>>29874320
>Right because the Japanese were well known for giving up when things were hopeless. Oh wait...

>>29865835
Civilians are people
We bombed Ching Chongs
Ching chongs aren't people

>>29866126
Whatbwas trotsky gonna do?

>>29874064
Look at the combat records of the landings. Some islands we had the luxury of giving resource depletion a chance, other islands with better supply did much better. Invading the home islands were expected to be much tougher. Also you troop totals are end of campaign not initial contact. Taking a small island with naval gunfire support is completely different from a extended land campaign. To pick one example ( to counter your selections ) Guadalcanal had 7,100 dead 7,700+ wounded out of a final total of 60,000 US troops. They faced Japanese defenders with 1/3 their troop strength. That was the scenario they imagined in invading Japan.
By that time in the Pacific around 4,000,000 military casualties and 26,000,000 civilians had died (mostly Chinese). They were not going to go soft. According to the findings of the Tokyo Tribunal, the death rate of Western prisoners was 27.1%, seven times that of POWs under the Germans and Italians. The US command structure knew most of that already. They thought it might be a difficult and costly campaign. With our hindsight looking back with modern sensibilities sometimes it's difficult to see their viewpoint.

>>29874345
Abandon cars near Fukushima I believe.

>>29874367
lel

>>29870361
No really what wqs he gonna do?
I can't find anything

>>29865849
/thread

>>29868442
>>29874409
Tried to jump start communist revolutions start across europe, tried to invade Poland in 1920 as his first step toward a communist europe, and (thankfully) proceded to get his ass kicked by the Poles

>>29871903
On a phone, can someone get me a screencap of this? I want this burn to keep me warm on cold nights.

>>29874567
Seconding

>>29874441
>Some islands we had the luxury of giving resource depletion a chance
You know which islands had depleted their resources? Honshu, Kyushu, and Hokkaido.

>other islands with better supply did much better
No, Iwo Jima was the only major battle where casualties were truly bad.

>Taking a small island with naval gunfire support is completely different from a extended land campaign.

>To pick one example ( to counter your selections ) Guadalcanal had 7,100 dead 7,700+ wounded out of a final total of 60,000 US troops. They faced Japanese defenders with 1/3 their troop strength. That was the scenario they imagined in invading Japan.
No, that's not the scenario they imagined. First of all, 7,100 dead you hastily looked up on Wiki is not all ground forces. They include the navy. Second, the US troops at Guadalcanal were literally fresh from boot camp, 99% had caught malaria and/or other tropical diseases, and it had left most of its heavy equipment in Australia. And they managed to literally wipe out Japanese resistance whenever they ran into some that hadn't already died from starvation or disease.

>By that time in the Pacific around 4,000,000 military casualties and 26,000,000 civilians had died (mostly Chinese). They were not going to go soft.
Yeah so maybe if the Chinese were invading Japan they would've lost 1.5 mil KIA.

>With our hindsight looking back with modern sensibilities sometimes it's difficult to see their viewpoint.
Again, that's something that speaks to the question of whether the bombs were justified or not, which I'm not interested in. The point is you'd have to be brainless to believe that 1.5 mil US soldiers would die invading a starving island without guns or ammo.

Japs would've been nothing more than cannonfodder to the post-German surrender US army of 1945, which had higher density of machine guns, BARs, AFVs, mortars, and artillery tubes than ever before. Japs were lucky they ate 2 nukes and not 50 US army divisions.

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>>29874367
>implying they wouldn't burn the whole ceremony down given the chance

>As a precaution, Raymond Spruance commanded a full carrier task force some distance off Japan in preparation of any Japanese hostility. As expected, the carrier task force did not have the need to launch any combat missions on 2 Sep 1945

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>>29874567
>>29874575

Why do crybabies continue to pretend to care about the nuclear bombings of TWO cities when the firebombing of MOST Japanese cities happened

Still no response?
What page anon

>>29875146
Same reason people bitched and cried about that Lion some dentist killed for sport some years ago and hunted him down/ruined his life and how they are tottally fine with the 35k cattle killed per year in the US alone to feed their Mcburgers.

Just a bunch of cucks trying to make themselves look important/busy with their mundane lives and trying to make themselves look superior for caring so much!!!

>>29874320
>>29874367
The Japanese surrender was pure goddamn luck on everybody's part. Pretty much only the Emperor was publicly calling for a surrender, and he nearly fucking got couped for it. It was a goddamn miracle that he managed to escape and smuggle his surrender message to a radio station willing to broadcast it.

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>>29874811
Here. I made this for you.

>>29875091
/saved

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>>29865835

The British civilian targeted air campaign against the Germans killed over 600,000 people.

The Japanese killed over 600,000 people in the city of Nanking alone and killed close to 20,000,000 Chinese citizens in total.

Our two nukes killed around 200,000 and ended a war that had killed 80,000,000.

If you don't think it was justified then you know jack shit about WWII.

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>>29875091

>>29865849
This. History written by victors, fuck off faggot OP

>>29871903
4

>>29870368
So genocide without white people in it is just a quaint custom?

Damn, colored folk have it easy. I wish I could have a charming cultural quirk.

>japs have the audacity to whine about getting nuked after commiting numerous horrendous war crimes
Its like wehraboos whining about dresden, its hard to feel bad for you when you reap what you sew

>>29875791
Moral of the story is, don't write a check to the bank of war that your ass can't cash.

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>>29870946

O looky what we have here

>>29870946
Ok, see if you can stop crying now. Take a deep breath, and fix your mascara. You're getting better about it, but you're still a whiny little bitch. See if you can work on that.

>>29871656
We had no intel coming out of the Home Islands. We had no idea what we were facing.

It's not like we could Google their order of battle to see what their dispositions were.

>>29871700
Oh, it's this guy again.

>>29870946
>And this is why all burgers need to die

BRING IT, FAGGOT. I FUCKING DARE YOU.

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Japan hate thread? Where my Korean bros at?

>>29874811

I counted 305 aircraft in that picture.

>>29871755
While watching some premium porn. Russian girls will do anything if you point a camera at them. No gag reflex, and refreshingly negotiable morals. Reasonable rates, too.

>>29871761
Well, it was perfectly legal under the laws of war in effect at the time. For that matter, if conditions were the same, it would still be legal today.

You're a vegan, aren't you?

>>29871903
And Oppenheimer's Stiletto has come into play!

>>29871908
Oh, right, you're the non sequitur anon.

>>29873958
But we would have to kill them, which is the fucking point you moron. It would have resulted in more civilian deaths on their side, and far, far more deaths on our side. Beyond that, you think giving them to the hordes of drunken rapist Slavs is a better idea? More humane?

Germany got the Slavs, Japan got the nukes. Honestly it probably should have been the other way around for what the two did, but that is, as they say, ancient history.

>>29872163
>fukkin housie. I'll rekt you, I tell you hwat! Give em the wrong end of a rag man's trumpet! Millenium shrimp, hand and foot!

>spare change?

>>29873958
>suffered 400k deaths total in all of WW2 while taking Italy, France, half of Germany, North Africa, and all of the Pacific.

Dammit anon, that's not the current narrative and you know it. The official line is-

>The US came late and contributed very little.

You know damn well Russia and China did most of the dying, so they get the biggest participation awards.

>>29875756
By defenition it's only genocide if you target a ethnic group because they're part of that ethnic group. If you just slaughter civvies it's not genocide.
Just looks at japans complete slaughter of chinese civilians. To this day it's not considered a genocide.

>>29871903
Godamn, you guys are incessant. Sorry, I have a family to tend to.

I was wrong about the autobiography, it is from his diaries. Relevant excerpts found here...
http://www.doug-long.com/hst.htm
and deeper issues found here...
http://www.doug-long.com/hiroshim.htm

Simplifying; Japan had no army or navy left to fight. They wanted to surrender as of mid-July. Could we have known then what was going to happen? No. Does that justify the bombs? I still say no. The excuse of "millions of lives saved from a land invasion" falls short when there is no reason to invade. The naval and air blockade had already taken Japan out of contention.

20/20 hindsight and all that, asking if we can justify it knowing WHAT WE KNOW NOW, there is no way to say yes. At the time, fuck it, I wasn't there.

>>29874345
Irradiated cars that were moved and stacked up near the fukushima reactor. They're basically too hot to safely dispose of so they're parked and rotting there, kind of like those pics of those military vehicles irradiated by chernobyl.

>>29876335
You see my point? If I did that shit, it would be a hate crime. Japanese do it, and it's just an ethnic hobby.

>>29876442
You seem to be purposely misconstruing Truman's writings. I'm going to take a wild guess that this is the entry you are referring to.

>Decided to tell Stalin about it. Stalin had told P.M. of telegram from Jap Emperor asking for peace. Stalin also read his answer to me. It was satisfactory. Believe Japs will fold up before Russia comes in. I am sure they will when Manhattan appears over their homeland.

That Japanese proposal was anything but an unconditional surrender. It mandated, among other things, that Japan would be able to keep its newly gained overseas colonies, that there be no disarmament of Japanese forces, that there be no military occupation of the home islands, that there be no war crimes trials for Japanese officials, and there there would be no changes to the Japanese government's structure and function. After the four years of brutal warfare they instigated, and after killing millions of civilians in China and SEA, Japan was expecting the Allies to be fine with resetting the clock back to 1941 so they could have another go at it in a decade or two. Japan's own diplomats later admitted they considered the offer insane and borderline insulting, but were compelled by Japan's military to avoid any deal that might lead to any sort of checks on their power.

>>29865835
>muh civilians
>muh genocide
>muh innocents killed
>what is pearl harbor

>>29877029
More info was on the deeper issues page. Basically, the Japs offered unconditional EXCEPT they kept their emperor. We wanted total unconditional (yet didn't care what the hell they did with their own politics aside from obey us) and used that as an excuse to drop the second a-bomb.

Again, looking back, it seems obvious we took advantage of the situation. Does that mean we are the bad guys? No. It means we could have won the war without the bombs. The details are left for internet philosophers.

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>>29877086

>>29866744
>America sets the stage for all of this to happen
>flip shits when Japan goes through the motions

>>29871908
>Be Russian
>Be poor as fuck
>live in crumbling Soviet-era blocks
>die from krokodil overdose

>>29877149
You and whatever idiot wrote that webpage are confusing two very different surrender offers. The Japanese cabinet was split on the topic of surrender between the military and the civilian branches. Before Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and the Soviet invasion of China both sides agreed that there should be no changes to the Japanese government's structure. This goes far beyond simply keeping the emperor as head of state, and essentially meant guaranteeing Japan remain a military dictatorship. In addition to this the military also demanded that there be no military occupation of the home islands or Japan's overseas colonies in Korea and Taiwan, and that the Japanese government be allowed to conduct its own disarmament and warcrime trials. Writings from the time make it very clear the military intended to use this as a way to shield itself from any consequences related to starting the largest war in human history. Since the military was in charge, its proposals were the ones sent to the soviets.

The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were less than 4 days apart, there was no official communications from the Japanese government in that interval beyond the standard proclamation from the emperor urging Japan to fight on released after every setback.

>Cont.

>>29865835
Well we invented the damn thing. Gotta get our money's worth.

Bombing those worthless Nips saved a lot of Marines lives. The Emperor can lick my taint after I take a shit and use one of your radiation babies as toilet paper.

Fucking savages deserve another 1.

>>29877342
>>29877149
After the bombings the civilian faction lost its shit. Japan's spotty intelligence gathering had determined the US had hundreds of atom bombs*, and they were convinced the US intended to destroy the Japanese nation. They wanted to surrender, and they wanted to do it NOW. For a while the military seriously considered total annihilation as an acceptable outcome, but were finally persuaded to accept a deal where the emperor would remain the head of state after Nagasaki. Although it only mentions the status of the emperor, the military intended to take this as a bellweather of what the US intended to do with Japan's current governmental structure. This offer was transmitted on 10 April, as Truman recounts in the first link you posted. The US replied that the emperor's status as head of state would be at the discretion of the Japanese people, implying that they intended to dismantle Japan's militaristic dictatorship and replace it with a democracy. Upon hearing this the military resisted, to the point a splinter group briefly took over the imperial place in a coup attempt, but eventually gave in at the personal urging of the emperor. Japan announced its surrender on 15 August 1945.

*There's actually an interesting story behind this. The day after Hiroshima the Japanese captured a shot down P-51 pilot named Marcus McDilda. He obviously knew nothing about project manhattan, but when a Japanese interrogator put a katana to his neck McDilda started spouting off everything he could think of to make them stop. This was Japan's primary source of information about the atomic bomb before the surrender.

>>29870357
>What changed?
weebs happened
SJW faggots happened

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>>29871700

>>29871831
based on the garbage coming out of nipland now i kinda wish we hadn't nuked them and the commies got to rape and murder their way across nipland

>>29870946
>And this is why all burgers need to die

And that wouldn't be terrorism?

>>29875391
>Our two nukes killed around 200,000 and ended a war that had killed 80,000,000.

Arguably, it was the general shitty situation of the war, and Russia's invasion of Japan that forced the surrender.

Japan was a testing ground. If the americans had wished alone to show Japan how fucked they were, they should have used it on a military base were people "deserved" death unlike civilian children.

You don't know shit about WW2, or ethics if you think that them numbers justify the nuking of Japan.

There were many options (inaction being one as the russians invaded manchuria) to end the war but the US wished to try out its weapons on Asians aswell as Guam people

>>29875974
>We had no intel coming out of the Home Islands. We had no idea what we were facing.
Holy shit you are dumb.

>>29877723
>they should have used it on a military base
Except you know, Hiroshima and Nagasaki both houses military complexes and has industries supporting the war effort.
>unlike civilian children
The general populace are being trained to fight if the invasion came. Hell, they were even given grenades so they can run towards the enemy and blow themselves up and most were mostly armed with spears and are practicing how to run it through a human by practicing on strawmen.
>You don't know shit about WW2
lmao

>>29876147
>But we would have to kill them, which is the fucking point you moron.
And I said at least twice that I am not interested in the debate over nukes, you retard.

> It would have resulted in more civilian deaths on their side, and far, far more deaths on our side. Beyond that, you think giving them to the hordes of drunken rapist Slavs is a better idea? More humane?
Irrelevant verbal vomit that has nothing to do with my point, which is simply that it is fucking retarded to believe that an invasion of Japan would've resulted in ~1.5 mil KIA.

>>29870357
I don't know, but we need to change it back.

We can sit around debating the morality of massive aerial bombing campaigns because we live in a worlds shaped by such campaigns. Tough men did tough shit so you faggots could complain on the internet.

>>29867483
My Jap grandmother in law still had her sharpened bamboo spear in her apartment until the day she died. Her husband somehow returned from the Philippines after the war.

Every human who could hold a sharp stick, was given a sharp stick. It was gonna get messy for all concerned.

Using the bombs was "being cruel to be kind".

>>29877818
>Every human who could hold a sharp stick, was given a sharp stick. It was gonna get messy for all concerned.
And so what? There is no rational way to derive estimated 1.5 mil US KIA from that.
And once again, I don't give a fuck about the original debate over the use of the bomb so don't try to tie me in with either side, you faggot. I don't care if it was cruel or kind. I said so several times.

>>29870361
Sounds like a plan

>>29865835
War is hell

The winners write history

The winners run the warcrime courts

It was effective

A significant part of the population was all for genocide so a little nuking was reasonably measured given the prevailing attitudes at the time.

Alright

I am now requesting any and all Nuclear videos

Whether nuclear tests or otherwise

>>29877831

Honestly I'm the original post in this post reply chain, and I think we would have had worse casualties. There were sick and injured Japanese citizens that got captured and after they were treated well and taken care of, they said that they were being told Americans were brutal savages that torture survivors. They were being encouraged and indoctrinated to fight to the death.

And the Japanese people would be like an endangered species if we had to invade, literally so many would die.

>I can't see how you could imagine 1.5 million Americans dying

What do you think they'll be able to do when they ran out of ammo facing endless human waves? Look at what the Russians did to fight off the German invasion. Russia literally lost one out of every four Russians according to their 1939 population and total dead at the end of the war.

If you don't think Japan wouldn't have fought tooth and nail, you're ignorant.

>>29877818

That's fucking horrifying. No idea if it's true, but thanks for the backup.

>>29877831
It doesn't matter how fucking high the casualties will be you insufferable fag. The point is the invasion would be a bloodbath for both sides. The Allies wanted a quick end to the war as an invasion would be really costly. Any competent commander would use a short way out of this mess than sending more men to their inevitable deaths.

>>29877831
You have to remember that most military planners at the time were basing their estimates and assumptions off of Okinawa, which was the first time the US invaded territory that was considered part of the Home Islands, and was one of the bloodiest battles in the Pacific. If Okinawa's casualty rates were extrapolated to all of Japan, the US would have been looking at 300,000 fatalities.

And this was at a time where the US was seriously underestimating the size of Japan's remaining professional army.

>>29865835
Japs should have surrendered in late 1944
/thread

>>29877779
Why, the USA didn't manufacture almost half a million Purple Hearts for no dam reason, and thats just for American casualties other allied forces are on top of that. The Soviets would have likely pushed their invasion on as well and that would be undesirable from the American political standpoint given the recent experience with the Soviets in Europe.

Local Jap casualties would have been vastly higher and the destruction a mainland war would cause would have resulted in massive civilian casualties through starvation and disease alone.

>>29877831
You sound upset. Settle.

I said it would get messy. The more the Yanks sent, the more would get hurt.

It was a bit like that idea the Japs had of the Yanks: "A gun behind every blade of grass".

With the Japs, it was "Something pointy behind every corner, tree, or bus stop.

Of course, the surrender put that challenge aside.

My Grandfather spent 2 years there with BCOF doing cleanup. Thankfully their kill switch was in the "safe" position, and as an Ausfag they got along great.

>>29873667
The nips didn't have a chance tho.

Marines rekt them pretty hard. If you can have a better kill ratio against people defending, while you are assaulting dun pretty good. Fuck stinky nips.

>>29877930
Problem is, high casualty rates are a serious issue for armies, especially ones whose soldiers don't have suicidal death wishes and actually expect to return home alive. Allied morale always took a hit from the sheer brutality of Pacific island fighting.

>>29865835
Assblasted liberal detected.

>>29865835
my prime objection is that nuclear and chemical weapons do massive long term damage that makes land mines and cluster munitions seem the lesser evil

alt plan is to invade mainland Japan
a gorillion casualty's on both sides
delays in securing victory means Russia invades the north
then you have a north south split

>>29865849
also this

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>>29866058
with bombs
most of the radioactivity is in the dust thrown up by the initial blast
if not detonated so close to the ground the explosion is a sphere and causes little problem

with Chernobyl there was allot of gamma radiation at first
but that only affects line of sight to the reactor core
bigger problem is that it was on fire for so long and dust from that got blown about

also another problem is radio active material getting into the water table
with chernobyl some of this was avoided buy digging under the reactor then filling that area with concrete to stop the molten core from sinking too low

if you want some really fucked shit look up Chelyabinsk-40

>>29865849
Yup. The code dictates FPBP.

>>29865861
It's easy to be this edgy behind a screen with your gun collection and American chesseburgers.

>>29874345
/k/ waiting for pussy

>>29865835
>How do Americans explain the use of the atom bomb? Killing civilians is an act of terrorism, remember?

You're oversimplifying, anon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateral_damage#International_humanitarian_law

There are actually three considerations that determine whether civilian casualties are acceptable or not: Military distinction, necessity, and proportionality.

Military distinction basically means that the aggressors use uniforms and other methods to distinguish themselves from the civilian population. This is to avoid mistakenly targeting civilians. Combatants who wear civilian clothes, try to blend in with the civilian population, use human shields, or use civilian facilities such as hospitals or schools for military purposes are committing war crimes. In most cases, they are legitimate targets, and they--not their enemy!--bear the blame for any civilian deaths that result.

Necessity simply means there must be a military need for the attack. You can't just bomb for lulz. There has to be a real military target. Otherwise, it's a war crime.

And proportionality means that the magnitude attack has to be proportional to the *expected military value* if the attack is successful. Overkill is generally not allowed, and may be a war crime. However, in many cases it's permissible to use the weapons you have available at the time of the attack, even if they are overkill.

>>29880934
(cont'd)

World War 2 was a total industrial war. The entire productive capacity of nation states was being directed to the war effort. The accepted win condition was formal surrender of one of the belligerents, or else the destruction of their capacity to fight.

So a nation's industrial capacity was absolutely a legitimate target, even for mass destruction, consistent with the principle of necessity. In addition, the means used--large-scale bombing raids, firebombing, and ultimately nuclear weapons--were proportional to the military value achieved by their success.

Because total industrial warfare merges military and civilian efforts to an extreme degree, the principle of military distinction is less important here. In addition to being a legitimate industrial target, Hiroshima was also an important military headquarters, with most of its assets stationed nearby.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_General_Army_%28Japan%29#History

"When the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, most of the military units, logistical arms, and command staff of the Second General Army were killed."

In my opinion, it was not a war crime for the Japanese to station their Second Army in the city, and neither was it a war crime for the US to destroy the Second Army by destroying the city.

>>29880934
>>29881041
(cont'd)

War is hell. Mostly it's an endless parade of degrading and dehumanizing choices between two evils. We try to choose the lesser of two evils if we can, but we're flawed. We're ignorant, and passionate, and we don't always get it right.

The principles of collateral damage--distinction, necessity, and proportionality--are our attempt to save some of our humanity, so that we have something good in ourselves to come back to, when it's over. These principles help us minimize civilian deaths, without giving up our ability to fight and win.

"Terrorism" has some technical meaning, and of course anything can be interpreted to mean anything else, if you really want to be faggot about it.

But for me, "terrorism" is basically the choice to turn away from humanity. To seek out civilian deaths, instead of avoiding them wherever possible. To make civilians the target, instead of protecting them. And most of all, killing without any military objective.

It's not the what--killing civilians--that makes it terrorism. It's the why and the how.

/end

>>29865835
As an American, I shall explain.

>Germans are mass killing Jews
>building a bomb to kill them by the millions
>and us
>kidnap and steal their Scientists and Tech
>then this Jap problem shows up
>decide ita about time
>look them straight in their eyes
>slap them around and tell them to knock it off
>just like a 9 year old little boy, they keep trying to punch us
>"alright, son, you asked for it"
>drop the first one
>Nips still coming at us
>drop the second one
>it advances their mental age from being a 9 year old to that weird Weaboo brother
>like, strangely weird
>like, all the men dress up as their favorite Anime woman
>and Pokemon of course
>get more and more weirder
>what evs, nit coming at us anymore

It wasn't that we were creating a genocide, its that you gave us no choice, Nippon-San.

That's why. Now go and eat your sushi and dress like a woman.

oh good, this thread is on the front page again
love me some weeb tears

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the japs deserved it.

they were floating balloons with explosives onto american soil

>>29881132

Slow your roll, anon.

>>Germans are mass killing Jews

True, but that wasn't why we were at war with them.

>>building a bomb to kill them by the millions
>>and us

They were *trying* to build a bomb, but they were doing it wrong. They literally could not even.

>>kidnap and steal their Scientists and Tech

Nope. We didn't get to their scientists and tech until the war was almost over. The principal scientists working on the Manhattan Project were all either American, or had come to America before the war.

The American nuclear weapons were developed using knowledge the Germans never had and techniques the Germans never mastered. Heisenberg was still groping for the truth when the Americans bombed Japan.

>>29877770
So, source me some intel we were getting out of Japan.

>>29881314
http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/D/o/Downfall.htm
You seem to underestimate at how American intelligence got better at picking up Japanese transmissions. Not even transmissions to and from the emperor himself are not safe

>>29881665
Ok, we had photo recon and radio intercepts. Your own source mentions in a couple of places how the Allies had no clear picture of Japanese capabilities or intentions. For instance, the estimate of planes went from 8K to 10K.

We never had any clear intel regarding their political situation, or overall intentions. Your source mentions the Allied fear that they would have to annihilate 4.5 to 5 million remaining Japanese soldiers, because no organized Japanese unit had ever surrendered.

>>29865835
>Killing civilians is an act of terrorism, remember?
Not in total war.
And there is a difference between nations fighting and sand niggers killing for keks.

Don't need to explain it.

>>29882535
Kinda does, I think.

I mean, don't get me wrong: There is a perfectly good explanation. But yeah, nuking cities is definitely something that needs to be explained.

>>29865835
Lets remember that the japanese were trained to lay down their lives to kill americans. Based on what we've seen on other islands civilians tend to either kill themselves or try and bum rush troops with sticks. Either way the nuked ended the war before a lot more japanese and americans died.

Oh and literally every side was bombing each other's cities.

>>29883119
Not if the good guys did it

>>29865835
>another quality thread, courtesy of /k/'s Eurotrash posters

>>29883148
That just means you gotta explain who the good guys are. One good way to identify the good guys is, they're the ones who are willing and able to explain using nukes on cities.

>>29883162
Nah just check the flag

Stars and stripes and you're good

>>29883162
pro fucking tip.
the good guys don't rape civilians, kill millions of people, start a suicide bomber campaign, and have a fucking death march.

>>29865835
>implying the nips counted as "people"

>>29883161
It's honestly pretty pathetic at this point. It's surprising they're even allowed to post here

>>29883182
That too.

>How do Americans explain the use of the atom bomb?
By not being cuckolds

>>29877723
>Russia's invasion of Japan that forced the surrender.
It was one factor, and an important one at that. You're the one who doesn't know shit about WW2 if you try to pretend that it was the only one though, and that the nukes had no actual effect on the Japanese leadership.

>>29877723
>Arguably
This is how people who are full of shit preface their points.

>it's just my opinion, you can't disprove an opinion bro

>>29883538
He's cribbing from Gar Alperovitz's bullshit, so its safe to assume he is full of shit.

>>29883569
>ovitz

God damnit /pol/ why have you done this to my mind.

I don't even go on /pol/, that's just from the leakage.

>>29883580
Your /pol/ instinct isn't even wrong, he was a literal communist jew. His revisionism has been debunked repeatedly but people still parrot it because of its contrarian 'this is the real history THEY don't want you to know!' shtick.

>>29877723
>If the americans had wished alone to show Japan how fucked they were, they should have used it on a military base were people "deserved" death unlike civilian children.

First, America didn't wish to show Japan how fucked they were. America wished to actually fuck them. It was a war, not a rap battle.

Second, Hiroshima was the home of the Japanese Second General Army, tasked with killing American soldiers if they invaded. If Japan were serious about protecting their civilians, they wouldn't have stationed their military forces in civilian population centers.

Third, Hiroshima was an industrial center. All the Japanese cities were. And all the Japanese cities were legitimate targets for that reason alone.

>>29865835
It's kind of sickening how yurotrash would be defending Japan if they went ahead with their plan of spreading diseases along the West Coast which would've caused a huge deathtoll. Mainly in children, pregnant women and the elderly,

>>29870357
Proliferation of media publication/production capabilities. Bet you a hundred bucks that if the U.S commits to the Daesh conflict with more than SOF, advisers and airstrikes the ISIL propaganda train is going to run full blast.

All publicity is not necessarily good leverage for gaining political favor and ensuring operational effectiveness of military force lead by civilian leadership and influenced by the court of public opinion.

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>>29878022
Except they don't. Hiroshima today is a thriving urban center.

And don't forget that nobody had figured out that long-term problems from fallout might be a problem, when those two bombs were dropped. Your hindsight is inappropriately applied here.

>>29876442
That doesnt say what you claim it said.

>>29877149
>. It means we could have won the war without the bombs.
Did someone claim otherwise?
The issue is what led to a quicker end to the war with fewer dead people.

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>>29866024
>tfw I met Paul Tibbits at an air show when I was a kid

>>29883902
>Hiroshima today is a thriving urban center.
Hiroshima was a thriving urban center in 1945, though less thriving obviously. It never stopped being an urban center.

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>>29866744
>sushi niggers

>>29883182
Do good guys; kill democratically elected officials seeking to improve quality of life for their citizens for the sake of oil, arm/create an industrial warhorse out of countries whose history within the region is so muddy with conflict that any saner person who took the time to do research would have not done so, proclaim to be the herald of democracy and liberty just to deny a bulk of an entire hemisphere the opportunity, and demand countries give a percentage of its taxes to maintain one's military bases despite one's own soldiers being fairly prone to engaging in felonies within the host countries?

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>>29884255
Yes they do you filthy commie kike.

>>29884255
You've got to be kidding me. I've been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that?

My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It's just common sense.

>>29884157
B-but what about the "massive long term damage" from nuclear weapons, worse than cluster bombs?

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>>29884367
>use even go need to do look more as anyone can

>>29884305
>supports the destruction, subverting, and oppression of democracies
>I'm the commie

>>29884823
I'd just like to interject for moment. What you're refering to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.
Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called Linux, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.
There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called Linux distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux!

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>>29884823
You can shut you're whore mouth you fucking jew

>>29884255
you are totally off-base.
sure, in recent times, we may have done some questionable things.
but we're talking about WW2, the pacific theater, and the atomic bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki.
and through that lens, we are the good guys.

It saved more lives against an enemy that refused to surrender. The cities targeted were producing military supplies. Heavier population areas like Tokyo were not hit.

>>29884255
Are you asking if nations do bad things in the interests of securing its interests?
Yes.
Thats why France gave Israel the nuclear bomb.
Thats why the UK tried to seize the Suez.
Thats why the Belgians went into Central Africa.

There are only murderers in this room.

>>29875391
Came here to say something similar.
Don't forget several million other SE Asians and Pacific Islanders that were slaughtered by the Japs.


Not that I revel in the deaths of others, but when you treat a nation like a singular individual, they had it coming.

>>29884885
>sure, in recent times, we may have done some questionable things.
>but we're talking about WW2,
...bro.
Ten Days of Tragedy, one of the leading precursors to the Mexican Civil war. Not recent times.
Woodrow Wilson telling Asians to fuck off and enjoy being under the yolk of imperialism. Not recent times.

>>29876335
But the reason they were okay with slaughtering them was because they were of an inferior ethnicity by their ideology of the time.

>>29876335
so you're saying that the US could wipe all muslims off the earth if we said;
"we are targeting suspected terroristic individuals and those who may be associated with them. certain groups of people are more likely to be involved with terrorism and therefore they get priority."
and it wouldn't be a war crime and we could just go full scorched earth?
why the fuck haven't we done this yet?

>>29866095
>Why not drop it on a less populated stretch nearby?
Sure. Why not drop one on Nebraska?
That'll learn 'em

>>29885150
>get fucked, faggot cows

>>29870361
That is my fetish

>>29865870
Bomber Harris do it again

>>29866095
>Why not drop it on a less populated stretch nearby?

Because the less populated stretch nearby wasn't a military base and an industrial center. The point of the bomb wasn't to make the Japanese government think about not fighting. The point was to make Japan literally unable to keep fighting.

It's like you don't even understand what exactly a war is.

>>29866095
I sincerely recommend Richard Rhodes's book The Making of the Atomic Bomb. It discusses all these questions and the decisions of those days in quite logical and accurate detail, and will answer many questions of history and ethics for you.

>>29884823
>supports the destruction, subverting, and oppression of democracies

Sounds like several European countries to me

>>29873151
>#don'tfuckwithamerica
>#thisiswhatyouget

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>>29885276
you forgot your pic, anon.

>>29866058
No not even close, the number of radiation related deaths and birth defects was very low in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The more efficient, and therefore powerful, a bomb is the less radiation it releases.

>>29875091
Fukkin saved!

>>29866078
During a nuclear explosion the vast majority of the energy/radiation is released in fractions of seconds. With Chernobyl the radiation/energy is being released slowly over a long period of time.
So no.

>>29881132
Not to mention the Japanese were planning on using the material from their failed nuke program to do a kamikaze dirty bomb on San Francisco using a sub launched seaplane.

Source: Got drunk and watched history channel reruns this afternoon.

>>29865835
Either wipe out two cities and scare the entire country into submission or send in marines to clear every city block by block, building by building, room by room against an enemy that does not surrender. The villagers were even prepared with sharpened bamboo sticks to bonzai charge the Americans in droves. We would have had to mow down thousands of men, women, and children. With the A bomb we showed them we could wipe out an entire city without a single loss on our side. There was no point for them to continue the war if they could not fight back against such a weapon. They decided to end the war before losing another entire city of people to this superweapon.

>>29866135
>I mean, we knew it would fuck shit up on a massive scale, but we didn't really know exactly what it would do to japan, or live people for that matter.

> we didn't really know exactly what it would do to japan, or live people

Because in 1945 massive explosive blasts were a mystery to physicists and the military for some reason?

In fact, atomic bombs are rated in (kilo)tons of TNT because they literally detonated tons of TNT and calculated the equivalent blast of releasing the energy of the atom.

I'm pretty sure they had a solid grasp of exactly what those bombs would do to Japan and to live people. It's not like blowing up live people was something new, in 1945.

They weren't even thinking about fallout at that point. Those considerations came later.

>>29879951
You jelly?

>>29886004

Very true. Had a great grandpa who's unit marched through the city either 3 days after the bombs or three weeks... I think it was 3 weeks even though I was told 3 days by family. I think that time and memory and old age mixed up days with weeks.

>>29884795
Pasta

>>29885124
Obama

>>29886395
Thanks! I thought I was having a stroke.

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>>29886004
>They weren't even thinking about fallout at that point. Those considerations came later.

Not to get in the way of your main point, which I agree with, but scientists at the Manhattan Project were well aware of the dangers of fallout and radioactivity by 1945. Pic related is a lead lined Sherman tank they used to pick up soil samples from ground zero immediately after the trinity test.

What wasn't as well understood at the time was the long term effects of radiation, like leukemia. The concept of DNA was still unknown, much less the idea of genetic corruption via radiation, so they figured that if a dose of radiation wasn't immediately lethal the body would simply repair the damage.

>>29887507
Fair enough, anon. I'm with you.

>>29877723

IIRC, they chose Hiro & Naga in large part because they were

A) Large enough to show the effect of the bomb
B) Mostly intact, unlike every other fucking city on the Japanese mainland (firebombs + buildings made out of rice paper and wood = not a whole lot that isn't ash, and we'd been firebombing them for a good bit before Manhattan could be brought over)

>>29877859

Check out AtomCentral on youtube

>>29881041
Actually, I do feel it is a crime for governments to place government facilities in areas of high population.
Governments are responsible for the death of civilians when they are targeted. This is why I recommend the US capital be moved to a flyover state, so that when the US capital is nuked, civilians are safe.

>>29885224

Seconding this, it's on Oppenheimers recommended reading list, and I'm on my second readthrough atm. Amazing book.

>>29882149
And postwar analysis based on surrendered war materiel would confirm they were right. More than 10,000 planes were found, 8000 of them were from Honshu alone. The Allies were pretty much right with their estimates.