China tests hypersonic missile: Carriers are doomed

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>>29770029
I still want to know what this miracle weapon uses for terminal guidance.

>>29770034
the undying will of mao ce-tung

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>>29770029

SEVEN TESTS, SIX SUCCESSES VS TWO, NONE OF THEM SUCCESSFUL

AMERICA BTFO

>>29770034
Literally nobody has ever been able to explain how they will hit anything moving with it.

I dont think people realize that ICBM's and literally anything re-entering the atmosphere at those dpeeds actually cant see where it is going.

Also, such devices launch signatures are impossible to distinguish from a nuclear weapon's liftoff, and since such a launch vehicle can carandeither type of warhead the USA would ALWAYS have to assume an unschedualed and reported launch is a nuclear attack and retaliate immediatly.

So they have a weapon that can only hit static targets and will start nuclear war the first time they launch one in anger.

>>29770029
If its going that fast on approch, it wont have much luck hittng a mobing target.

>>29771355
I'd assume it's damage radius is pretty large

>>29771242
You can have internal guidance, the thing about hypersonic missiles is control surfaces surviving at speed.

Possibly you can communicate with these warheads while they are in flight too, giving them targetting data.

>>29770613
IIRC America was testing self propelled vehicles, China gliders. Seems to me China is just playing catch up by developing their own MARVs. At least I can't see how these things are any different to that 35 year old technology.

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>>29771390
>inertial guidance
>on moving targets

>>29770029
How can that missile lock onto a carrier zig zagging at its fastest speed in the middle of the ocean?

Maybe if you shot 100 at the target?

>>29771432

Isn't firing 100 ICBMs asking for a nuclear strike?

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>>29770029
6th time's the charm, OP?

>our faces when shooting down their expensive missiles with lasers

pew pew nigga

>>29771432
Or not get shot down by the hundreds of missiles its escorts are carrying. This isn't a seaskimmer, it's a fucking ballistic missile, so they'll know its coming the moment it launches. There's a reason why the US invested a lot in early ballistic missile launch detection.

How come we haven't made underwater carriers?

>>29771390
Inertial guidance is one of those systems that is only good for hitting static targets.

There is another reason why hitting a moving target isnt something even cruise missiles can do, sensor data. When a target is that far away you have to have something on site targeting for the missile, atleast until it can lock on and its own guidance computer can take over.

Missiles, especially big fast ones, arent these nimble wasplike things that can suddenly change course like the ones in hollywood.

A hypersonic glide vehicle can only make tiny incrimental or very drawn out gradual corrections without ripping itself apart.

If a carrier was taking evasive manuevers at flank speed you would only have 2 options.

Mass saturation bombing with conventional warheads and hope one hits, or the nuclear option. Since the thing has the SAME launch signature as a nuke, and can carry either payload anyhow we would have to assume it was a nuke anyways.

Its home country would already a glowing ash field by the time it showed up and missed our carrier. Its just another retarded provokation device by the chinks and slavs. Its useless in most regards but it riles up the west and acts as a symbol of thier countries engineering prowess for them to propagandize about.

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And how good will this weapon be when China collapses due to internal turmoil?

>>29771449
Firing just one will result in full retaliation...

>>29771846
My theory on them is that the anti carrier thing is just a propaganda thing.

>Develop slightly more efficient nuclear payload delivery system.

>Uh.... hey, were kinda looking like a bag of ass in the navy department.

>ya know, cuz we dont have carriers and america can kinda just build a new fleet of them every few years....

>"american carriers cant EVER menace china cuz ummm.... uhh...... we invented an anti carrier missile!"

>its literally just an ICBM that you packed with regular explosives and redesignatrd as an anti ship missile


>retarded americans lose thier shit over your untargetable flying trashcan, zpend squillions trying to figure out countermeasures for your useless piece of shit weapon

>propaganda victory!

We used to do it to troll the soviets all the time, and them to us. What do you think the space race was all about?

>>29771588
You can lead a moving target, same thing as hitting a stationary one

If the carrier or whatever isn't aware its targetted & fired upon, they won't be actively maneuvering.

New York is doomed
Why would they go for a carrier that can just move out of the way
Carriers don't even have nuclear missiles, why would you go for them in a nuclear war scenario

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>>29771588
>There is another reason why hitting a moving target isnt something even cruise missiles can do,

Where have you been for the past 35 years?

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a345781.pdf

Thanks Oppenheimer (pbuh)

>>29772149
Probably bad wording, shoulda said "is difficult to do with a high margin for error"

You need some sort of spotter on scene, be it a drone, covert team, or some kind of spotting plane.

That being said it is still very difficult and its very easy to miss.

Targeting a carrier at ICBM ranges? Forget about it. If you use nukes maybe you could make up for the margin of error in targeting, but a randomly evading target? No. Not a chance.

>>29770029
so basically you're telling me that the chinese are just now catching up to what we did in the late 50's.

>>29772198
It's not that difficult, you need an aircraft with radar to get a basic location, then your bombers fire. Cruise missiles, particularly subsonic ones can do search patterns and attempt to reattach a target if they miss in addition to the standard pop up searches.

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now that are going to regret retiring the 14's

>>29771376

Could you, though?

What's the largest conventional warhead something like that could carry?

There's no way they could use a tactical nuke and not expect a full retaliatory strike.

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>>29770029
>too fast for any anti missile systems to deal with

Except, you know, our multiple working ABM systems - including the ship-based ones.

>>29772244
Yeah, but these things ARENT subsonic, and terminal guidance is the killer here. Detecting and firing on a target is the easy part. Actually hitting it once it begins manuevering is the hard part.


Also everyone seems to be forgetting that we have been testing ramjet powered supersonic devices since like, a decade ago. We just call ours "engine test platforms" when we do it. The basic issue with such high speed objects is that if you try to do anything but move in a straight line they tend to fly apart under the stress of incredible G-force.

This can be allieviated by slowing it down, but now you are just canceling out the "too fast to target" aspect of the weapon that was the whole point anyways.

You can either have a hypersonic delivery system but cant steer it for shit, or have a highly manueverable but easily shot down slower system.

>>29772317
How would the US test if they can engage hypersonic targets, when they don't have hypersonic anything?

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>>29770160
>implying the chinks didn't just copy old tech
>implying any of it is relevant
I came here to post this, good thing it was already posted.
/r/equesting that article that the chinese army can't even beat itself in wargames.

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>Chinese-US tensions rise.
>Chinese PLAN causes incident with USN, that has sketchy but sure enough grounds for war with China.
>USN mobilizes a fleet to protect Indonesia, and the Philippines.
>Multiple skirmishes out at see in the Pacific between USN, and PLAN.
>China decides to launch sanic missile.
>One USN Carrier is sunk.
>4 more USN carrier groups mobilized to blockade China.
>China begs for help from Russia.
>Russia already in dept from Ukraine war tells China to fuck off.
>China begs for help from India, and Iran.
>They both tell China to fuck off to avoid war with US, and NATO.
>Japan and South Korea mobilize Navies to assist US.
>China gets btfo'd before US Marines can set one boot on Chinese soil.

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>>29772350
Isnt like we dont have them too.

We just arent trying to compensate for a pisspoor navy by claiming they are anti-carrier weapons.

We just sidestep the nuclear proliferation accusations by calling them engine test platforms. Which is all china and russia are really trying to do here is say "NO, ITS NOT NUCLEAR, SEE, WE PACKED WITH CONVENTIONAL EXPLOSIVES FOR... UHH..... ANTI CARRIER TARGETING!"

we just smirk and say "supersonic flight research." These delivery systems only make sense if they carry nuclear payloads.

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>>29772244

And you expect the chinks to be able to get that aircraft within radar distance of a carrier battlegroup long enough for targeting and NOT get shot down?

Also check'em

>>29771376
Not very. A 100 foot miss would do no significant damage.

>>29772409
thats a scramjet
Little different from a ballistic missile warhead

>>29772461
>Implying you can't equip a warhead(s) to a scramjet.

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>>29772354
>How would the US test if they can engage hypersonic targets, when they don't have hypersonic anything?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-51#_=_
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA_Falcon_Project#_=_
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersonic_Technology_Vehicle_2

Are you fucking retarded

>>29772461
And how exactly are chinas any diffefent? Its just a fast way to move a warhead and not very accuratley.

>>29772493
Right? Weve been building hypersonic tes platforms since atleast the 90's. Probably well before that, only in secret.

>>29772409
>We just arent trying to compensate for a pisspoor navy by claiming they are anti-carrier weapons.

Also, look at the sources we have to work with:

>Chinese propaganda outlets: ERRY TEST A SUCCESS ROOK OUT AMERICAAAAAA
>"Anonymous Sources~" in the Pentagon who are absolutely trying to get their own hypersonic programs more funding, so they have every incentive to inflate "China launched a thing and we did see it on radar" to "SEVEN SUCCESSFUL TESTS OMFG"

>>29772508
>Probably well before that, only in secret.

Also this. This is the big thing. We've got a two decade lead in research, at LEAST, which has some obvious consequences when you extrapolate to current highly classified programs. I wonder just what we have fucking about at the new Groom Lake. You know, the one that they test the real shit at, now that Groom Lake is compromised by everybody knowing about it.

>>29772512
Its reminiscent of the cold war where russia would build the most pants on head retarded abysmal failures, trot it out as propaganda, and send the USA scrambling to toss billions at some crackpot project just to "keep up."

And of course military industrial contactors are going to proliferate it, its literally where thier income is based.

Example. Russians spend millions researching ESP. Naturally now we need to build our own team of psychics.

We literally were chasing ghosts, not because we thought it would work, but because if they have a guy trying to do something we need atleast a taskforce trying it too.

Its just an excuse by china to dismiss the glaringly obvious fact that at best they can buy rusty old soviet carriers right now, and we are blowing it up so lockheed martin can get a big ol pile of money to throw at some 3 trillion dollar anti carrier toaster oven or some shit.

>>29772354
DOD has said that they've wanted a missile stand-in for the DF-21D to test systems against and could develop such a missile for $30 mil, but nothing new has been said since 2012.

>>29772582
>Naturally now we need to build our own team of psychics.
>Crush the Germans with your mind!

>>29772124
because the globe isnt surrounded by devices that exist solely to spot the launches of anything that even remotely resemble a ICBM?

these are not going to be anti ship weapons. they are a counter to a missile defense system for nuclear warheads.

MAD doesnt work if your opponent has a high probability of shooting your nukes out of the sky.

>>29771390
Internal guidance is useless if it can't see where it is or detect a target. It's like driving a car while blindfolded.

External comms don't work at hypervelocity because of the near-plasma envelope surrounding the leading edges of the vehicle. It totally scrambles any data transmission.

>>29772497
>>29772478
A hypersonic air breathing missile that can actually fly itself to the target is a totally different thing than trying to get MIRV warheads to maneuver

>>29772636
No real missile defense system even exists

There's a reason why modern AShMs are moving more towards being subsonic, maneuverable, stealthy, and intelligent. Old Soviet ones like the Granit were made to just be as fucking big and fast as possible. But turns out, those missiles are easiest to detect and shoot down. You're much better off with subsonic sea-skimmers that only get detected last minute, that have stealthy improvements (like the LRASM) and can intelligently maneuver to avoid defenses and attack from different angles and such things.

This missile from China is silly. The US would detect the launch almost immediately, and the president of China would be getting a phone call within minutes asking him wtf was going on and saying to abort the missile or Beijing gets glassed.

Even ignoring the strategic element, the US has gotten the AEGIS system to shoot down a satellite. It can damn well shoot down this missile.

>>29771432
>Maybe if you shot 100 at the target?

That still only gives you a 6% chance of a hit. This is not a high probability weapon. It's about the same as trying to hit a hummingbird at 100 yards with a crossbow.

>>29770613
A cursory google search will tell you of more than two hypersonic tests conducted by America in the 5 years.

>>29772124
What a stupid thing to say.

>>29772664
I actually dont know a lot about the missile part, but I agree with the missile defense part.

Missile defense systems are a lot more trial and error than people think.

During desert storm we recorded a 97% shoot down rate because we convieniently included enemy scud misses in the numbers, it was actually closer to about 30 or 40 percent.

Granted that was 25 years ago, but I have a personal story about an intercept system.

>Be in iraq
>have a couple "see-rams" up on the hill above our fob (im a grunt, thats what we called em)
>they just sit there looking like R2D2 knocked up a minigun and sever generations of inbreeding occurred
>one day a flock of birds set em off, the barfed approximatley a gazillion rounds trying to shoot down a group of birds
>pot shot from an AK-47 flew right past the radar array, causing them to try to literally shoot down a 7.62x39 round
>finally, they open fire at an incoming old warsaw pact rocket
>bbbbbbrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP
>im not kiding, sustained fire for like, 30 seconds
>rocket impacts fob anyways

Did I mention that those rounds have to impact somewhere, because the next day we had to go on a hearts and minds patrol to try to convince some farmer about 5 miles away that we werent intentionally targeting his hovel with a shitstorm of bullets, and pay him a bunch of money.

>>29772668
>There's a reason why modern AShMs are moving more towards being subsonic, maneuverable, stealthy, and intelligent. Old Soviet ones like the Granit were made to just be as fucking big and fast as possible. But turns out, those missiles are easiest to detect and shoot down. You're much better off with subsonic sea-skimmers that only get detected last minute, that have stealthy improvements (like the LRASM) and can intelligently maneuver to avoid defenses and attack from different angles and such things.

T H I S

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>>29772791
>Did I mention that those rounds have to impact somewhere, because the next day we had to go on a hearts and minds patrol to try to convince some farmer about 5 miles away that we werent intentionally targeting his hovel with a shitstorm of bullets, and pay him a bunch of money.

aaahaahah I had a fuckin giggle at that, man. The best part is, they're just Phalanx CIWS guns mounted on a truck and tasked with shooting down artillery. But don't confuse the "C-RAM" system with the SeaRAM system, which is a Rolling Airframe Missile (point defense missile for shooting down cruise missiles) combined with the R2D2 radar/control dome of the Phalanx gun. Which is separate from a RAM launcher, which is controlled by integration into the ship's computers and radars and shit, and so it carries twice the missiles (the SeaRAM is for bolting onto any damn thing you want after the fact.)

Oh and the best part? They just announced they're gonna start using these RAM missiles to intercept incoming artillery instead, because they work so much better at hitting shit than the Phalanx guns!

The military really needs to unfuck these goddamned acronyms, man.

>>29772664
>No real missile defense system even exists
What does this mean?

>>29772892
If china or russia fired a ICBM at the US today, it would not be intercepted

Can we make a word for Chinaboos like we have Vatnik for Russian apologists?

>>29772915
You are incorrect.

>>29772926
Usually we use fiddy cent/$0.50

>>29772932
spit that hot fire, Dr. O!

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>>29772915
Comments like this really hurt. I'd like to think they're all just shitposting, but a good amount of people believe this, especially edgy Russiaboos.

>>29772977
Thanks. Will use in future.

>>29772582

I'll take "Star Wars" for $1500, Alex.

>>29772890
Yeah, to us grunts literally any air defence system was a seeram. We knew that wasnt right, but we had literally nothing to do with them and as was evidenced, they werent very relevant to our day to day existence beyond causing the occaisional fuck storm.

>>29772995
Please explain how the US, or any other nation, for that matter, would intercept a MIRV upon re-entry with currently existing tech.

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>>29770029

>>china attacks US

>>fires hypersonic missiles at carriers

>>greedily rubs their chink-jew hands at the anticipated destruction

>>the missiles close distance

>>but before impact

>>they hit a energy-shield protecting every vessel

>>their face when we're coming for them now and they thought their little plan was clever

>>29773150
>you can only intercept under conditions I allow

>>29773150
No one.

Thats why you shoot it down prior to terminal phase.

>>29773072
Lol, classic reagan era. You ever seen the propaganda commercials for that "program." Friggin hilarious. Even people at the time thought it was ridicoulous. But by far the funniest part was how russia just ate that shit up.

Did someone say destroy carriers?

>>29772244
Uno problemo, this system ISNT subsonic. Its hypersonic, which is synonymous with "no terminal tracking."

Meh, lasers don't miss.

>>29773234
Why is that? The US had terminal tracking on the hypersonic D-2 projectile in the late 1980s.

>>29773272
Is tracking different from guidance?

>>29773197
I think everyone here besides openheimer is overlooking the fact that china cant fire these things without triggering a nuclear war.

Correct me if im wrong man, but most of our ICBM defense strategy revolves around getting nukes impacting launch sites before liftoff.

Hard kill systems are currently unreliable, but also not actually our true defense.

Point is, china cant fire these things without setting off every early warning launch detection network on the planet, they would trigger nuclear armageddon just to take an inaccurate potshot at a carrier.

In theory, a nuclear payload could compensate for inherent inaccuracy of hypersonic and orbital reentry delivery systems but once again. You are starting a nuclear war over a carrier.

So in effect, the stalemate hasnt been broken and these systems arent the tie breaker that everyone pretends they are.

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>>29773202
The world we could have experienced.

>>29773197
Is it realistic to expect a measured response in less than 30-odd minutes that can reliably hit a completely unexpected missile in that phase?

>>29773306
Fun story, my dad was out at white sands missile range while they were testing some anti missile lasers. In the 1980s.

They were the size of a warehouse but they did sucessfully shoot down a tomohawk missile with it. The fun part about starwars is that we intentionally went public some of our toys in order to make our bluff look real.

>>29773289
Not in this sense.
The D-2 had a SARH seeker for longer range and an IIRH seeker for terminal homing for the intercept.

>>29773304
>I think everyone here besides openheimer is overlooking the fact that china cant fire these things without triggering a nuclear war.
It is a risk that depends largely on the US reaction during a crisis.

>Correct me if im wrong man, but most of our ICBM defense strategy revolves around getting nukes impacting launch sites before liftoff.
Good offense is the best defense.

>Hard kill systems are currently unreliable, but also not actually our true defense.
Our current systems are not designed to stop a limited attack, let alone a massive launch. It is designed to stop accidental launches, or attacks from rogue nations.

>Point is, china cant fire these things without setting off every early warning launch detection network on the planet, they would trigger nuclear armageddon just to take an inaccurate potshot at a carrier.
Perhaps. Again, depends on the US policy during a crisis.

>In theory, a nuclear payload could compensate for inherent inaccuracy of hypersonic and orbital reentry delivery systems but once again. You are starting a nuclear war over a carrier.
>So in effect, the stalemate hasnt been broken and these systems arent the tie breaker that everyone pretends they are.
You are correct.
Nothing is 100% effective.
The only nuclear sub to sink a live target in war did so with a WWII era torpedo.

>>29771242
>Literally nobody has ever been able to explain how they will hit anything moving with it.
>I dont think people realize that ICBM's and literally anything re-entering the atmosphere at those dpeeds actually cant see where it is going.
I lost the link, but I read somewhere that the Chinese were able to use the reentry plasma covering the nosecone of the RV to transmit radar beams instead of blocking them. Don't ask me how, just look for it.>>29772668
>There's a reason why modern AShMs are moving more towards being subsonic, maneuverable, stealthy, and intelligent. Old Soviet ones like the Granit were made to just be as fucking big and fast as possible. But turns out, those missiles are easiest to detect and shoot down. You're much better off with subsonic sea-skimmers that only get detected last minute, that have stealthy improvements (like the LRASM) and can intelligently maneuver to avoid defenses and attack from different angles and such things.
They are not. subsonics have to maintain that oh so fragile killchain for a lot longer than is desirable. They are also a lot easier to intercept physically, even fucking CIWS can do a number on them.

>>29773304
>I think everyone here besides openheimer is overlooking the fact that china cant fire these things without triggering a nuclear war.
naval warships were kinda expected(of them) to get tac. nuked so the risk of escalation isn't there as much as nuking a city.
Also the US would know if it was ICBMs heading for CONUS or not, the trajectory would scream that fact.

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>>29772791
>>sustained fire for like, 30 seconds
>>rocket impacts fob anyways

>>29772362
why is that pic so hot

>>29772145
Even if somehow the US lost a nuclear war.

The US navy waltz right over and blow the fuck out of Beijing.

>>29773589
Ever read the metro series? Not play the game but read the books?

Old grizzled vet who worked in a nuclear silo spends several pages talking about how US subs and remote bunkers would pop up and fire a salvo, at first every few weeks, then a month or a year or two later.

Russians and chinks doing the same, or bunker and sub crews of either side refusing to fire because they refused to be a part of humanities suicide.

It was both really touching, and terrifying. The idea that individual men of more or less no importance refusing to jlin in the slaughter even though it didnt matter if they did or not anymore, and the idea that a total exchange isnt going to be a brief 30 minute slugfest.

The idea that the decimation of humanity could already be over and long past and some increasingly malnourished and nihilistic bunker crew could decide to fire on people that bareley remember why the world ended in the first place is chilling.

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>>29772791

>>29773589
Ever read the metro series? Not play the game but read the books?

Old grizzled vet who worked in a nuclear silo spends several pages talking about how US subs and remote bunkers would pop up and fire a salvo, at first every few weeks, then a month or a year or two later.

Russians and chinks doing the same, or bunker and sub crews of either side refusing to fire because they refused to be a part of humanities suicide.

It was both really touching, and terrifying. The idea that individual men of more or less no importance refusing to jlin in the slaughter even though it didnt matter if they did or not anymore, and the idea that a total exchange isnt going to be a brief 30 minute slugfest.

The idea that the decimation of humanity could already be over and long past and some increasingly malnourished and nihilistic bunker crew years later could decide to fire on people that bareley remember why the world ended in the first place is chilling.

Or the idea of some cold automated sytem being in charge of administering the final death blow to our race years or decades after.

>>29773463

> China launches anti carrier missile
> US: "What r u doin, China? R u launching nuke attack?"
> China: "No, jus sinkin ur carrier."
> US: "Oh, ok then."


Yeah, nobody gives a shit whether they hit half a dozen cities or one carrier. Launching an ICBM at an American asset for any reason is going to get China's shit pushed in.

>>29773408
Except all modern and in-development AShMs are subsonic and focusing more on maneuverability, stealth, and countermeasures.

Of course they can be shot down. Duh. Any missile can. But sea-skimmers can only be detected once they're inside the horizon. Doesn't matter your detection capability. With a bigass supersonic missile that goes high, they get detected shortly after launch and are easily intercepted by missiles.

>>29770029
>tests hypersonic missile

Sure you did china, suuurreeee.

>>29773752
Failed satellite launches can be relabelled as hypersonic missile tests.

>>29773730
People are overlooking the economic clout of the US.

The moment china shoots anything more substantial than a dirty look at one of our carriers we are going to incinerate thier economy.

I dont have enough room to explain why the chinese economy relies upon US consumers and the interest payments we make to them, but we actually enslaved them economicblly by borrowing money.

If they give us a reason to declare our debts void and place an embargo on them thier economic base will fail.

>>29773150
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-174_Standard_ERAM
Literally it's job.

>>29773774
>inb4 "China is self-sufficient!"

>>29772932
Not that guy, but can you point me to the system that would shoot it down?
I thought that the only really operational anti-ICBM system was over Moscow, with the U.S. relying on anti-SLBM systems.

>>29773740
To be fair there is the Brahmos I and II, though the first Brahmos is based on the P-800 which is like 15 years old. But yeah, if what they're saying about the LRASM is true it should be much more difficult to detect and shoot down than the old Harpoon, and more importantly should be compatible with the standard Mk 41 VLS which means in theory each Burke/Tico could carry and launch dozens of them in rapid succession. In comparison, the Harpoon needed its own proprietary launcher that meant each ship could only carry like 8 of them max.

>>29773774
Yeah people always talk as if the US is enslaved by China because of muh trade deficit. In reality, both countries are intertwined economically, and the fact is that the US could better survive wothout China than the other way around. The US could always get industry and cheap manufacturing from India or Indonesia or wherever. Where is China going to find as much business and as rich a customer as the US?

>>29771501
Submarine based carriers have existed since at least ww2. Granted they only carry a small number of planes.
It'd have to be such a big submarine it'd be so obvious that you might as well put it above water again.

>>29773862
We owe more fucking money to Japan than we do China, and the shit we get from China isn't even essential. Times will be hard when kids can't have their asbestoes toy trucks, but no one is going to starve.

>>29773814
A country structured like China could by no means feed however many billion people they have right now.

>>29773868
Not even. The I-400's can't even be called carriers. They had all of three shitty seaplanes.

>>29773774

I agree.

China has always spent virtually all of its energy trying to keep itself in one piece. The entire country is one huge, bawky contraption made up of different ethnic and political groups. Some of which actually speak totally different languages from the others. Like, take the multicultural friction found here in the US and amplify it by a thousand and you might just touch on what is going on in China at any given moment. Hell, the Chinese government isn't even scared of us. We're the 400lb gorilla who's just content to eat his bamboo and fuck off. But the Chinese people? That's the tiger that the government spends its entire time alternately feeding raw meat to and flicking a bullwhip at. All they have to do is fuck up real good one time and it's going to be a half-continent sized shitfest. And it's not the Tienamen Square Democracypalooza they're scared of. It's a billion dirt poor biorobots up and having themselves a good old fashioned Communist Tent Revival. That's the tiger. All those poor-assed shmoes cranking out iPhones all day, living on noodles and trying to figure out a way past the suicide netting strung around the top five floors of the factory. If those fuckers ever get that old time Marxist religion again, a thousand American ICBMs is going to seem like a goddamned love tap.

>>29773862
Also, the US could just bully its allies into an embargo.

China is as uppity as we allow them to be. A lot of thier high tech industry isnt really thiers. Its american factories being powered by american capital.

Which is why they can build a chinese version of something equivalent to our tech, but only do it a few per year.

Plus, look at how china builds stuff. Would a true superpower REALLY have to resort to cloning foreign tech if they were so powerful.

Fact of the matter is the biggest news out of china usually just revolves around how they finally back engineered something we are already mass producing.

When it isnt, people tend to forget that they can only manage to build a few at a time.

Not to mention that thanks to being a totalitarian regime if they expend resources to employ something they have to employ an equal amount of resources to ensure it is never used to threaten the ruling party.

Most of thier real resources are tied up protecting a ruling elite from rebellion. Anything they forward deploy is old tech or so highly restricted and supervised its practically immobile.

>>29773960
Is there really such a rebellious climate in China? I got the read from their people that they just don't give a fuck.

>>29773952
That was a good post.

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>>29770029

>>29773740
>they get detected shortly after launch
Even the old P-500 and P-700 still fly close to the surface <100m, which is a radar horizon of less than 35km.
>and are easily intercepted by missiles.
Here is a trick question, would a HY-2 be easy to shoot down with SM-1/CIWS and Seawolf?

>>29773952
I got to expierience the chinese culture by dating one (for research purposes)

Most of thier people live in bamboo shacks next to disease infested mosquito breeding rice paddies and legitimatley think passing an eel under a goat 4 score times beneath the light of a full moon then imbibing the dried bile of an endagered species counts as medicine.

Like im not even kidding.
>get cold
>chink GF's mom insists its because I dont have enough suction cups attached to my back
>uhhh.... okay....
>heat cups
>place them on my back
>they shrink as they cool and give me a bunch of ring shaped hickeys on my spine
>you are now cured from your cold.
>the fuck I am, you just bruised the shit out of my back
>hmmm.... your chi is blocked, let me place this pile of random leaves and twigs on your back and light it on fire
>fuck. No.
>OKAY, OKAY, fine, no self mutilation, but atleast let me rub rancid eel oil on your joints

I literally cant make this shit up.

Now shes my ex GF but I atleast got to dispel the mystery of asian pussy being any different than any other pussy.

>>29774079
isn't it sideways

>>29773981
More paranoia than unrest really. Only a few hundred thousand rule over almost a 3rd of the human population. They are terrified that some day the hordes of peasants will come for them in a howling mob.

In which case they will literally be outnumbered thousands to one. The very best military assests are reserved to provide personal security of the chinese ruling elite. The rest get 1960's, 70's, and 80's era tech.

>>29774091
Official report, its not.

>>29773740
>Except all modern and in-development AShMs are subsonic and focusing more on maneuverability, stealth, and countermeasures.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus_%28missile%29
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-lethal-hypersonic-zircon-cruise-missile-enter-15909
um, you were saying?
>But sea-skimmers can only be detected once they're inside the horizon.
>wtf are AWACS?
>>29773740
>With a bigass supersonic missile that goes high, they get detected shortly after launch and are easily intercepted by missiles.
afaik the Granits and Bazalts and maybe Onix and Zircon work by wolfpack that has a designated "alpha" so to speak. said alpha climbs really high and fast to scan around with its fuck huge radar(for a missile that is, its more comparable to a jet's actually) while the rest lay back and sea-skim while waiting for the attack signal from the alpha.

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>>29774091
>tfw you learn asian pussy isn't sideways

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>>29772582
>Its reminiscent of the cold war where russia would build the most pants on head retarded abysmal failures, trot it out as propaganda, and send the USA scrambling to toss billions at some crackpot project just to "keep up."

TFW the US could actually afford to play that game, and the Soviets couldn't.

>>29772664
>A hypersonic air breathing missile that can actually fly itself to the target is a totally different thing than trying to get MIRV warheads to maneuver

Something the US figured out how to do almost thirty years ago. China isn't breaking any new ground here, just rediscovering old tech the Americans had already invented.

>>29774119

This. Even if they were only armed with one rock apiece, the Chinese proletariat could swarm and eat the elite inside of a week if they all moved at once. As backwards and myopic as they may be, eventually all those rice farmers and electronics assemblers are going to figure that out. At that point, not even pointing their own military inwards will amount to shit. The Chinese elite will either run screaming to any place that will have them or they will be strung up and cooked alive. It’s inevitable and they know it. Those peasants don't want to farm rice and slap computers together for the rest of eternity. They want SUVs and shopping malls and Imax theaters. And eventually they're going to figure out that, the way things presently stand, the oligarchs pulling the strings in China will never let that happen because the Chinese economy is literally built on a billion bowed backs.

I just hope I get to see the meltdown in my lifetime.

>>29772664
>A hypersonic air breathing missile that can actually fly itself to the target is a totally different thing than trying to get MIRV warheads to maneuver

What does it tell you that the Chinese are still laboring over hypersonic glide bombs, a thirty year old technology, while the Americans have already progressed to hypersonic missiles?

>>29774296
Sorry bro.
Also protip, its not just attached to a matierialistic manipulative bitch-demon (otherwise known as a human female)

Its attached to an ASIAN matierialistic manipulative bitch-demon.

I exclusivley hung out with asian females for a year as part of my ex gf's friend group. Korean, japanese, vietnames, like a melting pot of slant eyed depravity.

The asian female has distilled the essence of being a heartless trend following posession oriented sociopath typcally the purview of women into an apex predator art form.

At first she is your tiny delicate soft spoken easyern flower. Then one day you wake up and find a she-demon crouched over you attempting to tear our your liver and fly away back to her nest to feed it to her hatchlings to strengthen them for the coming winter.

Dont let to polite and submissive demeanour fool you, they are fucking grade A vampiric predators. Even if you escape alive they will claim a portion of your soul.

>>29774400

fucking kek, thanks for the good laugh today mate

>>29774602
It has been a.... challenging breakup. Turning it into humor is my coping mechanism. Im also like, really really drunk so my apologies fow what is probably bad spelling and grammar.

>>29774349
That's some 1984 shit right there.

When I read that book I never would have thought something like it could actually exist.

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>>29771407
>I can't see how these things are any different to that 35 year old technology.
they're hypersonic. thought that was the point.

>>29770029
>what is nuclear deterrent for $500, alex

>>29772791
Kek, did it actually get any of the birds

>>29774809
Something only logical, empathetic leaders understand and respect?

>>29773781
MIRV =/= ballistic missile.

>>29774743
Does, and has.

Our founding fathers saw it. They called it the social contract, in as simple terms as possible it means that no matter what the conditions, the populace always has to concent to be ruled.

Tyrranies, faschist, and totalitarian regimes must earn that consent via coercion. But it comes with a downside, they have to constantly work to maintain that level of oppressive coercion. Too much, and they provoke rebellion. Too little, and they arent the unstoppable juggernaught that prevents thier people from revolting.

To the founding fathers the perfect society should be the opposite, with its rulers constantly trying to appease the masses out of fear of revolt instead of constantly trying to opress the people.

A military downside to any totalitarian regime, as you will read in history, is that for every iota of force they show, they must match it to defend against its possible use against themselves.

You need somebody to spy on the spy who spies on the spies who spy on the civilians.

You need a guard to guard the guards who guard the guards who guard against the people.

So when people speak of the total force apparent in a totalitarian regime keep in mind the difference between available force, and total force.

In reality a significant portion of chinas military power is tied up preemptivley menacing the rest of thier power. The moment they cant maintain that balance (like say, a massive war against an outside threat) they will fall into civil war.

>>29774817
Idk, they were like, a mile out. I imagine it got a few.

>>29773304
Israel fired ballistic missiles to test their defense during the early part of the Syrian War, only Russians were alarmed, everybody did not see anything odd with it. I guess it would be the same with China.

>>29774400
Holy shit anon! Sorry.

I Dated a mainland Chinese girl once. On our second date, we were in a Mexican restaurant and she was playing footsies with me and holding hands (a sign that I as getting lucky that night). She then asked me if I was dating anyone and I said no laughing and asked her, she responded, "I'm married!"

I then kinda thought that there was something weird with Chinese girls and broke it off with her after amicability after that.

>>29773202
Nearly everything about SDI was feasible for the technology of the time, especially Brilliant Pebbles.

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>>29770029
>1 data point
>TRUMENDUS SUCCUHSESSSSS

>>29773774
>I dont have enough room to explain why the chinese economy relies upon US consumers and the interest payments we make to them, but we actually enslaved them economicblly by borrowing money.

>Implying the American consumers would want to live without Chinese goods.
Take out Chinese goods from the American market and US implodes. No one wants to go to war with China, gays marching on the street telling everybody to stop it, black men does not want to conscript, white men too fat.

>>29774929
To asians being honest is not nearly as important as avoiding a loss of face.

In other words to them doing something wrong isnt wrong if you dont get caught. They care less about integrity in favor of maintaining a reputation.

So to them its not important that you dont cheat on your husband, its important that you dont get CAUGHT cheating on your husband.

Western culture values honesty, even to the point that its hurtful. To asian cultures lying to preserve mutual reputation is more polite than an honest statement.

The idea that an asian male will try to find out what is an obvious lie from his woman is less likley vs an american male who will be greatly insulted at the dishonesty and try to uncover the truth, whereas the asian male wont care so long as he feels his reputation hasnt been effected.

Idk, there are varying degrees between individuals but its a phenominon I observed.

Western ideas on the matter are guilt based (you either did it, or didnt, how many people know is irrlevant)

Eastern ideas on it are shame based (it doesnt matter who did it, only who people THINK did it)

>>29774998
so basically, asians take "better to ask for forgiveness than permission" to a whole new level?

>>29774960
Or they just enlist mexico, or india, or literally any other 3rd world nation.

China is convienient. Not critical.

There would be troubles, yes, but nom our economy would not be permanantly crippled if we suddenly decided to shift our manufacturing labour base to another highly populated developing nation.

China is only valuable for as long as they remain the most convienient option. As soon as thier actions compromise that status they lose everything we give them that allows them to pretend to compete.

>>29775022
Kinda. Its more like, to them there isnt a difference between being secretley bad or publicly good.

It isnt until others know of an indiscretion until it counts as such.
>fuck guy who isnt BF
>nobody knows, still faithful to BF

Vs
>only fuck BF but people think you sleep around
>is as good as cheating on your BF

>>29772890
>All these stupid acronyms
>some fuck named a modified torpedo CBASS
>probably got a promotion for coming up with it

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>>29775069
>HEHHEHHEHHEH I LAIK IT! LAIK WIER GOIN FISHUN!!!!
>WAY TO TAKE THE INISHITIVE, STEVE. WE LAIK THAT ROUND HEUH.

I screencapped a whole bunch of shit in this thread. Awesome stuff. For serious.

Totally changed my view on some China stuff, and some missile stuff. Better than some books I read.

I sweat, 4Chan is a giant turd that occasionally has a diamond stuck in it.

>>29775259
Sceen caps pls?

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>>29775308
They are potato because I'm tired as shit

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>>29775318

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>>29775308

>>29775329
Saving all of these btw. Much appreciated.

>>29775339
you are whale cum.

>>29775375
Spank you very much. (In as sexual a manner as you prefer)

>>29772289
Retiring the F-14 just to spite Iran was always a stupid move.

>>29775426
It had its problems man. It was the worst engine/airframe pairing in a production fighter ever, like, if it fired its missiles at specific speeds and altitudes it could flame out its engines.

It was also a maintenance nightmare in comparison to other aircraft of similar role, configuration, and era. This wasnt a problem under cold war splurge funding, but as soon as rhat sweet succulent anti soviet funding dried up the cost to keep an F-14 airborn became questionable.

>>29773684

I love the Metro series. I love it so, so much. It's one of my favorite post apocolyptic universes.

That being said, the science and policy behind the series fucking triggers me. Not the Roadside Picnic-esque anomalies, but the "evolution" and whatnot. The real amounts of surface radiation would be much lower and with the precision of nuclear weapons today few areas outside of the targeted military zones would be completely devastated.

Ignoring a tit-for-tat countervalue strike against cities specifically.

>>29773774

>declare debt to be no
>invest in DESIGNATED economy so they can build shit cheaper for us than China ever could
>blockade China, including all grain imports
>cackle maniacally as China erupts into a civil war between the Urban Elite and the, ironically enough, starving farmers being slave driven to feed the cities.

Food wars when!? Food wars now!

>>29773992
Yeah, kind of like medium weight HST, or PJ O'Rourke with jet lag. Very evocative, and thoroughly enjoyable. 10/10, would read more.

>>29770034
Almost all America assets are just sitting in port. Easy peasy.

>>29775695
Yeah, it does require a lot of suspension of disbelief. For instance, you will apparently suffocate to death on the surface but anything 10 feet or more lower is still breathable somehow.

There is a vague attempt to blame mutation on bio-warfare, but the sort of evolution you see in metro critters is something that would literally take millions of years.

But the books really delve into the human soul and THAT, is why the series has relevance.

>>29774960
>Take out Chinese goods from the American market and US implodes.

Not even close. We pay 5% more to have Mexico provide the same goods. Just like they used to do.

That extra 5% means 3 less Quarter Pounders With Cheese per family per year. That's the extent of the deprivation we'll experience.

Meanwhile, China will be begging food aid from North Korea.

>>29775725
Few more decades if we dont find a way to go to other planets or quit shitting out babies.

>>29773684
I'd much rather have the world be over quickly.
I mean, being next to a major target I doubt I'd survive long, but I don't want that ambiguity.
I just want everyone to turn their keys and then we all die in half an hour.

>>29775958
Wouldnt happen, you are more likley to spend your final hour in a nuclear war vomiting up the lining of your stomach and weeping in agony while your skin sloughs off and your teeth fall out than to just get flash-vaporized.

It really is indicative of our race that every one of our WMDs seem to revolve around incredible and protracted agony.

>>29775990
my entire plan in case the base gets nuked is;
>die in fireball
>if step one fails, off self and others with me if possible
fuck that noise, man.

>>29775863
Except for the 60% or so that's underway at any given time.

We were surprised in port by an Asian country once. It didn't end well for them.

>>29776006
Yeah, stephen king wrote a short story about post nuclear war in which a guy living in a cabin, his elderly neighbor, and his dog notice the nuclear apocalypse happened because of the radiation sickness. The younger guy realizes his wife and daughter were in boston, and are most likley dead.

The old guy shoots himself after shitting out the lining of his small intestine, the younger guy holds out for a while longer, but wakes up with his face partially peeled off and stuck to the pillow. He even then holds onto hope until he sees how miserable the dog is and puts it down before riding his motorbike off a cliff.

Legitimatley made me tear up. Just captures the pure hoplessness of it all. They never even see a flash, hear a noise, or figure out who fired on who.

>>29776054
could you imagine that?
be chilling innawoods with this cool old dude and old yeller and then your fucking face melts off?
jesus christ.
I feel worst for the dog, honestly.
poor fucker couldn't comprehend what was going on.
he just woke up, went to lick his balls and they fucking came off. christ, man.

>>29776066
Which is what sparked the pity and sudden realization in the main charecter. Hes watching his poor dog disentigrate and puts it down, then realizes the dog isnt any different than himself.

Its fun to fatasize, but I reckon any post apocalyptic story is going to seem as ludicrously narcissistic as the old john connor book series were.

Mad max is my example, hes handsome, strong, virile, and a great warrior surrounded by ugly idiots.

Which is how we all like to envision ourselves and why such fiction sells so well. But in reality the survivors of a nuclear war would watch thier children be born as stillborne abortions and die young from cancers and luekemia.

Thier children would live short brutal lives before the same cancers took them. Two generations later survivors descendants would finally regain the capability to have normal healthy babies regularly and die of something besides cancer, but so much would have been lost.

In reality the happening we all pretend to hope for would be the single most horrific and depressing event in our history, assuming we even survived as a species and somebody managed to write it down.

>>29773952
solid post

>>29776112
I would look at the cancer and mutation rates from Chernobyl and Hiroshima and Nagasaki before you start assuming that the human species will turn into a bunch of Mayfly mutants.

Life will suck, no doubt about it, but it's not going to be some horrible dystopia. It'll probably be more like rural America during the Depression.

>>29776250
Talkin about a total exchange of warheads man.

The real big one. Worst possible scenario.

Though you are right, its most likley to atleast be somewhat limited with relativley untouched regions.

>>29770029
>laser CIWS doesn't exist

>>29772149

hang yourself furry faggot

Two words: Nuclear submarines

who gives a shit america #1 faggot

>>29773774
China owns $6.2 trillion or approximately 47% of US debt.
If they wanted they could kill your broke ass and not feel a thing.
Dumb americans

>>29776529
if they hit us, we destroy them.
if you blow up the bank, burn the records, and shoot everyone who works there, do you really owe any debt?

>>29776543
I meant kill you economically.
You would literally fall apart,not to get into bs economy talk but you are not saving yourself from that one,meaning debt is not just a debt you should probably do some reading on it.
Any corporate accounting book should do.

>>29772791
Aren't C-RAM rounds fused to pop before they fall?

>>29776561
It would certainly be worse than the other anins are making out, but the US would survive just fine.

t. economist

>>29776394
It's still not a doomsday scenario. A lot of targets get multiple warheads, a certain percentage of warheads won't survive to be launched, a certain percentage will be duds, and a few will be intercepted.

Hardened targets get surface bursts, most others get airbursts. This reduces the amount of fallout. Counterforce strikes seem to take precedence over countervalue strikes, so population centers could avoid significant damage. Any that are co-located with strategic military assets are SOL.

I suspect that post-attack panic and jitters will kill just as many people as the attack will. Stupid shit like people crowding into basements that they think are bomb shelters and killing each other over floor space.

A lot of urban areas will become food deserts until FEMA and NG convoys start bringing in supplies.

Like I said, it will suck. When I compared it to the Depression, that included population levels, too. Most deaths will not be a direct result of the bombs or fallout, instead resulting from the reaction to the bombs/fallout.

>>29776561
Not really.

What are the Chinese going to do. Worst case is stop buying more American debt and sell what they have at below market price.

Maybe Amerifags engage in a selective default and refuse to honour Chinese owned debt.

Either way its the Chinese who end up short changed.

>>29776529
You lost a decimal point there, Hop Sing. China owns around 4.7% of US debt. Japan owns more than China, and they've got something like 7%.

Regardless of percentage, how do you plan on collecting? You can't put troops on our shores. If you try any kind of militaristic adventure, we just tell you to stuff your debt up your ass.

Now you just shut up and keep making shower curtains, Chang. Otherwise we'll take our business to Pedro, just across the border.

>>29775863
as a navy fag, bull fucking shit you dumbass civillian.

>>29776898
thanks 4 ur cervix

>>29770029
>hypersonic DF-2F missile, capable of speeds of up to 7,000 mph (11,000 kph).
>China might be perfecting an even quicker missile, the DF-ZF (also known as WU-14), which can reach speeds of 11,000 kph.
>Quicker
This article is bs.

>>29770029
>>29771242
>>29770034
It looks a lot like a Pershing 2 clone.

The Pershing 2 used a special microwave transparent material for its reentry vehicle. I suspect the missile has little trouble spotting a ship on the background of an ocean with radar.

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>>29776983
Pic related, the radar

>>29776983
>>29776994
The Pershing's radar was for area correlation; before GPS, you looked at the terrain to know where you were. The trouble is, that mountains are significantly larger than ships, and they also don't evade. A terminal ballistic missile is going very fast, so doesn't have much time (compared to a normal ASM) to determine the location of the target, and also cannot maneuver much without drastically slowing down, and thus making itself very vulnerable to SAMs from the CBG's escorts. What people don't seem to understand is that a ballistic missile-launched ASM has problems inherent to the design, ones that no amount of engineering can fix. There's a reason there's only one system of this variety in the world.

>>29777121
>The Pershing's radar was for area correlation; before GPS, you looked at the terrain to know where you were. The trouble is, that mountains are significantly larger than ships, and they also don't evade. A terminal ballistic missile is going very fast, so doesn't have much time (compared to a normal ASM) to determine the location of the target, and also cannot maneuver much without drastically slowing down, and thus making itself very vulnerable to SAMs from the CBG's escorts. What people don't seem to understand is that a ballistic missile-launched ASM has problems inherent to the design, ones that no amount of engineering can fix. There's a reason there's only one system of this variety in the world.

They may not have much room to maneuver, but hypersonic targets bearing down on you are not an easy problem to solve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDL_pIPScSI&feature=youtu.be&t=331

>>29777159
So ignoring the fact that the US has a Standard missile specifically designed to shoot down terminal-stage ballistic missiles, and that anything less than a direct hit on the carrier would not mission-kill the carrier, and that the Chinese don't have anything to actually guide the thing in the first place, the DF's limited range (~1500km from what I could dig up in a few minutes) leaves any launch site within easy reach of any number of assets including land-based aircraft from Japan, strike aircraft with tank from the carrier itself, or, to use a technical term, an absolute fuck-storm of TLAMS from the CVBG escorts.

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>>29777219
Because seriously, FUCK your launch positions. All of 'em.

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>>29777219
Daily reminder that EVERY Standard Missile in service has terminal ABM capabilities.

>>29777332
"Having the capability" and "Being specifically designed for" are two very different things, anon.

>>29777343
Totes, my primary negro. I merely point out that it's not just the fancy 3s and 6s, Burke and Tico can swing at tactical ballistic targets till the quiver is empty.

>>29770034
Radar, like all the other systems.

>>29770029
Why do you think the US navy is starting to field defensive laser weaponry?

>>29777370
Right weapon for the wrong threat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBMU6l6GsdM

>>29773960
>Also, the US could just bully its allies into an embargo.

Namefag, please.

>>29777384

Won't work. Mark my words, missile defense will never work well. You're fighting the forces of entropy with missile defense and entropy is fated to win.

The only time anything will ever be safe from missiles is if armor reaches the point that shaped charges can't defeat it any more. This maaaaay happen in the future with advances in single-crystal and amorphous alloys, but who knows.

if there's a real war, tactical nuclear warheads will be used and trying to do 'missile defense' against them will just mean the difference between vaporization in 0.00001 seconds and vaporization in 0.00002 seconds

>>29777374
>What is shock waves by laser‐induced plasma

Probably the area with the most potential for lasers. Sadly, much went classified.

Mach gazillion objects don't like instability.

>>29777453
It appears you don't know much about physics.

>>29777458
I'm eager to learn.

>>29777439
Missile defense already works well you idiot.

>>29777450
>I don't know how nuclear weapons work: the post

>>29777458
What is wrong with what he said? These hypersonic vehicle's are prone to break up even without external interference.

>>29777281
i want to step on it

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>>29777494
NO, STEP!

>>29777490
>These hypersonic vehicle's are prone to break up even without external interference.

No, not really. The hypersonic vehicle are robust as fuck.

Failures like the American attempts were a result of not correctly working sensors.

>>29777504
You were shitposting? Proceed, then.

>>29777453
The artificial plasma channels would rather help the hypersonic glide vehicles because it would work like a shield against the laser.

>>29777469

ok bud let's see your carrier survive a 10 kt nuclear detonation 5 kilometers off its bow

heck, if we want, we can make it a neutron detonation so that the ship is unaffected and can be captured, while the crew dies instantly

>>29777554
>wasting a nuke against a carrier

okay bud let me know when you will waste your time going after military targets at sea in a scenario that involves destroying the entire world.

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>>29777554
>heck, if we want, we can make it a neutron detonation so that the ship is unaffected and can be captured, while the crew dies instantly

>>29777571

do you know what a tactical nuke is

you don't use it against civilians

>>29777554
"Missile defense" by definition means there's no detonation, smart guy. Worst case, they flip on the CWS and some whales get cancer.

>>29777579
>tactical nuke
>won't result in nuclear retaliation

i understand you're retarded as fuck but this doesn't mean your imaginary world where use of nuclear weapons goes without retaliation actually exists.

>>29772405
More like:
>One US carrier sunk
>One US aircraft accidentally bombs a village
>Whining liberals and president scared of ratings pulls out of war and sues for unequal peace.

>>29777554
You're retarded. A neutron bomb will neutron irradiate the metal in the ship making it radioactive and trash all the electronic devices. The whole ship would need to be rebuilt.

Also, 10kt is tiny for a modern weapon. The W80 for example is 150kt and only weighs 200lbs.

>>29777571
Another retard. Russian anti-carrier tactics revolve around supersonic nuclear armed cruise missiles.

>>29777593
ok bud i'm sure russia and china are just gonna sit there while carriers rape them. they totally won't use one of the thousands of tactical nukes they have for the express purpose of using on high-value war targets like carriers. your fragile american ego can remain unblemished this day, please go on believing you guys are untouchable

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>>29777610
yeah i'm sure the other nuclear super power is going to sit back and let their projection and invasion prevention force sink and do nothing as they get nuked.

>>29777609
>using a super sonic nuke means the US can't retaliate using nukes

who's the retard here?

>>29777631
if you nuke a civilian center in reply to a nuke on a war target (like a carrier) you'll just have a lot of people nuking you.

>>29777648
if you use a single nuke you will literally have everyone using their nukes you stupid fuck.

>>29777649
>Not understanding proportional response.

Please go, the adult are talking.

>>29777655
>uses a nuke
>using a nuke is response isn't proportional

you need to be at least 18 years old to post here kid

>>29777661
You implied that the only response to a tactical use of a nuclear weapon was all out nuclear war, and are now pissy because someone pointed out who much of a retard you are.

And supposedly we're the children... right.

>>29777680
>i have no idea how one side using nukes means everyone else starts using their nukes too

seriously kid go to bed

>>29771355
Are you that much of a cretin? If it really goes that fast when it hits it would simply not matter if the target is mobile or not, it would simply not have the time to move before being hit.
Basically it would be like hitting a stationary target.
>>29771418
No cretin, on static targets, because at those speeds the target movement will be negligible.
>>29771432
Oh look another cretin that doesn't have any idea about differential speed.
>>29771469
so, is your butthurt treatable?
>>29771588
My god , is this site filled with idiots? Don't you fucking understand that the carrier would not be able to move more than a few feet from the moment it detects the incoming missile and the moment it hits?

>>29777704
>Don't you fucking understand that the carrier would not be able to move more than a few feet from the moment it detects the incoming missile and the moment it hits?

For useing the word "creatin" about 4000 times its sad you think hypersonic = lightspeed.

Its a glider with a mostly ballistic tajectory into the upper atmosphere.

>>29777704
$.50 have been deposited to your account.

>>29772409
>Isnt like we dont have them too.
Actually you don't , all your attempts at launching a technology demonstrator (not even a basic prototype) have ended in failure.
Actually they have been such overwhelming failures that the entire project is pretty much shelved.

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>>29777704

>>29777721
>Actually you don't

Actually the US has a depressed tajectory hypersonic weapon that is self powered and hit a target.

You would know that if you knew a damn thing about anything.

>>29777699
You fucking moron.

Proportionality means using nuclear weapons against similar targets as your enemy - PROPORTIONAL targets.

Nuking a city in retaliation for a carrier sinking just opens the door to your own cities being nuked while gaining no military advantage. This is basic nuclear military theory 101.

>>29777514
The laser itself doesn't need to make contact, just close proximity.

Basically a scaled up Laser-Induced Plasma Effect, or LIPE, weapon. Originally demonstrated as a non-lethal weapon, the lethal version (against humans) based on the same principle went classified.

I'm not saying without a doubt any of this will bear fruit, just that I feel it's worth looking into.

>>29777738

Not him but you are seriously ignorant.

The logical endgame for tactical nuclear use is full scale warfare, you dont disengage after that demonstration of use.

If i have to explain further, quite frankly i wont, too ignorant to bother.

>>29777738
>hurr the slavs and chinks can get away with using nukes cause they move faster than conventional nukes
>hurr my imaginary world where hostile use of nukes result in a strongly worded letter is a reality.

wasting a nuke on a military asset is fucking worthless considering the very first nuke used sets forward a chain of events that results in all out nuclear war.

does your mom know you're using the internet?

>>29777704
Doing some back-of-the envelope math, it takes about 7 minutes for a DF-21D fired at maximum range to reach it's target. During that time, with the target moving at 30 knots, it could displace itself conviniently 7 miles in any direction. That equals a search area of 154 square miles. If you're implying the missile search that entire area all by itself you can fuck right off.

>>29777746
>>29777748

Lol what.

The whole point of late Cold War tactics were a slow steady escalation to allow one side to decide to call it quits and sue for peace. "One flies, they all fly" was the retarded shit we had in the 60s.

I'll wait for Oppenheimer to lay it down for you.

>>29770029
Guidance system is way too basic, basically sets a trajectory on launch and thats pretty much it. Plus, due to this, its end ballistics will basically be a straight line onto the target (if the target isnt moving) which means its predictable and easy to shoot down.

>>29777722
Oh come on, you aren't a total loser, you're not a nigger after all. Or are you?

>>29777774
>The whole point of late Cold War tactics were a slow steady escalation to allow one side to decide to call it quits and sue for peace.

What if your confidant the other guy wont?

What does china do if we drop a depressed tajectory low kiloton nuke on a couple of military ports (where the surrounding town will most likely get after effects.

Once you nuke a CBG, there is no end. The american people simply wont stand for it.

>>29777774
>i'll wait for sperglord that confirms my bias to prove me right

humans are fucking scum and willing to kill over imaginary digital items.

if one nuke flies, so the will the rest.

had all the major players in WW2 had nukes they would have used them all after seeing the US drop them.

>>29777704
I wonder who the cretin is here, if you for real believe that Russia, China or anyone else could launch one without the US knowing it. The carrier would know that a missile has been launched the second it leaves its tube

>>29777774
>the US just keeps nuclear missile subs around so they can sue for peace
>nuclear missile subs totally aren't a way to launch retaliations strikes the guarantee mutual destruction

>>29777774
Oppenheimer states that random city's are basically off the table but legit military targets ARE on the table, regardless of surrounding population.

>>29777730
Actually the only test done with it has been such an abject failure that the entire project has been completely shut down. So no, not only they don't have any now but they don't have anything to do that in the planning.
Come on, all of that is public, you could have found that by yourself with a very simple googling.
>>29777751
Yet you forget one simple thing: they aren't psychic so they will have no idea what the target if that rocket is up until the moment of re-entry which will give them less than 15 seconds to react. Do you really think that this rocket can't alter its target point by 250 metres or that its payload isn't strong enough to sink it even if it hits a bit off?

>>29777809
Yes, and?

>>29777805
>Tactical nuclear weapons
>Going full retard and going for MAD.

Right...

>>29777795
Lol, unlike you he actually has the credentials to back himself up.

>>29777799
Are you that much of a cretin? How would they know what the intended target of that launch is? Do you think that they have mind-readers on board?
The only way in which you can profile a basic target destination on a modern missile is from its descent trajectory, and by then it will be too late .

>>29777829
>Actually the only test done with it has been such an abject failure that the entire project has been completely shut down.

What will you do if i prove you wrong, fuccboi?

>>29777840
this is why a launch of any sort is retarded as it will be considered a nuclear launch and the everyone dies thanks to nuclear war.

>>29777830
>Yes, and?

Does the US think the PLA will stop after a few costal city's go up?

>>29772124
not twelve minutes ahead of time. Though the crews of those ships might not like it I have been at laiden sea trials on conbulk ships that weight more had less power and could pull off a full willianson turn in less than five minutes. We also had a way higher cg than an American Warship would. 35deg roll with a 50+ meter beam is going to hurt some people but they carry extras.

>>29777851
Nuking a ship and nuking a city because it contains a FEMA centre are different levels of the proportionality scale.

>>29777843
Proclaim you as the only wizard capable of bringing back the dead.
And for your next trick bring back the Comanche or the GCV.

>>29777704
Fiddy bong

>>29777840
Fiddy Bong

>>29777840
You do know what a trajectory is, right? Its a bow, you can easily calculate its trajectory, fairly precise and very early too.

>>29775054

So basically, a billion-odd sociopaths.

Fucking wonderful.

>>29777851
Fiddy Bong

>>29777851
Does the PLA think it'll be only a few cities that "go up"?

>>29772530
never was a thing, just toxic contamination from experimental rocket fuel being dumped in the middle of the desert because lol no oversight, to scary for elected people to see. don't ask why the jizz moppers out there die at 45 because of weird tumors. compromise nation security so SCOUS will ignore. How did we trick SCOSUS into not allowing them to listen to requests for information by the court? a flailed o-ring on the frontal housing of a B-29 engine in the 50's. We still use groom lake but it's a toxic waste dump that would have you prefer drinking water from the eyrie river pre-epa when it caught fire era rather then knowing the amazing engineering that gets tested there.

>>29777920
You do realize that we aren't talking about 50 years old ballistic missiles here, correct?

>>29772791
not old enough to know that these where no capable of being land deployed until the 0 years.

>>29777978
ABC here, nip fong ching chong whee!

>>29774800
>they're hypersonic. thought that was the point.
So are MARVs. So what's your point?

>>29777884
>In November 2011, AHW was launched from the Pacific Missile Range Facility in Kauai, Hawaii, to the Reagan Test Site on the Marshall Islands. The glide vehicle successfully hit the target, which is located about 3,700km away from the launch site.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/advanced-hypersonic-weapon-ahw/

AHW is apart of the PGS program, which is still very much alive.

>>29778101
This said, i demand my reward.

>>29777884
Get on it fuccboi

>>29777882
Nope, nukeing a CBG and nukeing military naval infrastructure and assets is the exact same friendo.

>>29777699
This is pretty dumb

>>29777746
>The logical endgame for tactical nuclear use is full scale warfare, you dont disengage after that demonstration of use.
This is not correct.
As you go through cycles of escalation, you have the option to reach interwar deterrence and bring a halt to it.

>>29777748
Nuclear warfighting strategy has evolved since the 1960s.

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Shhhh ... be vewy, vewy quite.
we steal dare .50

>>29778137
The american people simply wont stand for loseing a task force with no reprisal.

There are no real sea based military targets that would warrent a nuke.

>>29777805
>nuclear missile subs totally aren't a way to launch retaliations strikes the guarantee mutual destruction
Thats not their primary role.
If it were, their patrol areas would not be near the coasts of potential targets. We would do what the Soviets did and keep them in protected bastions.
Make no mistake about it, they do have a second strike role, but in US Major Attack Options they are almost exclusive offensive weapons.

>>29778143
While this is true, isn't there a large degree of uncertainty regarding the progression of such an event? A limited nuclear war hasn't really been tried before and the intention to keep it limited might not be enough.

>>29777851
If the US choses a nuclear response to the destruction of a carrier, the targets wont be cities.
They would be the weapons and command and control systems that support them.
The US has a massive advantage in this area.

>>29777938
As Mao said, even if the US kills a billion Chinese, there will still be more Chinese left than the entire US population after that sort of war.

>>29778137
>As you go through cycles of escalation, you have the option to reach interwar deterrence and bring a halt to it.

What if you legitimately belive your enemy will no be deterred?

You said it yourself, china does not have true mad capacity. Why play games at that point?

>>29778161
>The american people simply wont stand for loseing a task force with no reprisal.
1) Where did I say that they would?
2) The American people do not issue orders to the military. They dont have a say in it until an election rolls around. If the NCA decide not to retaliate with nuclear weapons, it doesnt matter what the American People think.

>>29778177
I thought the Russians compensated for lower accuracy with higher yields, and thus were pretty much on par counter-force wise.

>>29778192
Why attack cities if they lack the ability to seriously retaliate, why not go counter-force and destroy their ability to retaliate?

>>29778170
>isn't there a large degree of uncertainty regarding the progression of such an event?
Sure.
Thats why we got to the point we are. Multiple options for response, all the way from 'nothing' to 'everything'.
Decades of exercises and wargames have given us as good an idea as one can have about how it would turn out. The idea of 'one flys they all fly" is possible, but extremely unlikely.

>>29778187
Mao was being overly simplistic.

after a nuclear war, there wouldn't be much left.

>Chernobyl

>>29778195
The president would face near instant impeachment if he went "lol idc" to a nuclear strike.

>>29778220
>Chernobyl
>Lower limit of a few hundred deaths, upper limit of 4000.

Sounds fine to me.

>>29778192
>What if you legitimately belive your enemy will no be deterred?
If this is the case then you have struck long before this has become an issue. If you believe with 100% metaphysical certitude that your enemy will not be deterred in the event of a crisis, then you have to strike first.

But that doesnt happen because anyone can be deterred if the costs are high enough.

>>29778101
>PGS program
> alive
yea
https://news.usni.org/2015/11/04/document-report-to-congress-on-u-s-conventional-prompt-global-strike-and-long-range-ballistic-missiles

>>29778105
And now you can go fuck yourself with a cactus

>>29778228
but this is a very small nuclear reactor that just spewed some poisoned steam

>not a goddamn warhead/s comrade

>>29772791
Yeah those things are a piece of shit. They can't even hit birds and somehow the Navy believes it will protect their ships from sea skimming missiles. Lol.

>>29776648
>>29777648
>>29777649
>>29778212
Here's an analogy:

There's a rich man who likes to make cool stuff in his garage and do science experiments. For the past ten years, he buys all his materials from a department store down the street. There's another store right next door, but it's 10% more expensive. So he goes down the street to get the cheaper prices. The owner of that store is an asshole though, and over the years, he gets more belligerent. 50% of the owners business is from this rich guy. Eventually it gets to the point where the rich guy walks into the store and the owner laughs at him and mocks him saying that he gets so much of his money, and how fucked he'd be if the owner decided not to sell to him, calling him an asshole, etc. Eventually, the rich guy gets fed up and stops shopping there, instead going to the other store and eating the 10% higher prices. The department store down the street suddenly sees a 50% loss in sales.


And I'm pretty sure nuclear deterrent has gotten to the point that even if China say, launched a tactical nuke at a carrier and blasted it, it wouldn't be instant nuclear war and MAD. Because nobody wants that. You'd get massive international sanctions and embargos, maybe limited military action on the part of the US, you'd see Japan and South Korea push to get nukes, etc. But I don't think any country is going to be too eager to start a nuclear war, even when they are victims of a nuke.

>>29778253
It was a very large reactor (~3000MW thermal) that spewed tens of tonnes of radioactive fuel and a few hundred tonnes of radioactive moderator into the atmosphere.

It wasn't "small"

>>29778234
Yes, the program is alive and has funding.

The AHW has a successful test.

Im waiting anon.

>>29778267
Good analogy but with one tiny flaw.
Carrier Group
>ChingChong gets rektd

>C

>>29770160
Write a post about any topic, but do so in a comically angry manner. Remember allcaps. Don't just go full retard, take it up to 11. After posting, take a screenshot of your masterpiece. Plaster it with memes and crappily zoomed words.

The guide to effective argumenting in 4chan.

>>29778294
It is in comparison to a thermal nuclear weapon my very kind anon

>>29778310
>AHW test successful
I have bad news for you anon
http://spacenews.com/41667us-hypersonic-weapon-test-ends-in-failure/
And that's why the program is pretty much dead now.

>>29778336
>Nuclear weapon
>10kg of plutonium and HEU, about the same in fusion fuel
>Burns more cleanly than a reactor

>Power reactor
>110kg of uranium per fuel assembly
>1600 fuel assemblies
>160+ tonnes of fuel
>Irradiated moderator

>>29778341
But anon, the claim i was disproving was...

>the only test done was a failure
False

>the program is dead

False.

I wont even go into why the failure had nothing to do with the weapon itself; its irrelevant.

Now, i demand my reward.

>Spoiler: you anti american fuccbois are all the same and incapable of admitting fault, i dont expect anything. Its just fun to show the thread how much of a bottom bitch you are.

>>29778383
Nuclear weapons come in various sizes Sempai

>>29778462
Even the largest modern weapon wouldn't contain more than ~100kg of fusion fuel.

>>29778468
and with multiples you die

>enjoy your toast

>>29772362
ahh yes wargame airland battle love that game

>>29776648
Lmao rekt

>>29770034
Radar, inertial guidance, GPS, or even a fucking preset flight path

>>29776648
This!

funny as fuck and true

>>29771407
Well maybe the fact they go mach 25.

>>29778634
>preset flight patch

Lel

>>29771588
>There is another reason why hitting a moving target isnt something even cruise missiles can do

How was 1975 gramps?

>>29778644
The chinese gliders?

>>29771846
No. Are you baiting?

Oppenheimer has explained this too many times for you guys to still be this ignorant.

>>29772317
How do you know this when we have never tested on hypersonics?

>>29778663
Depends on what anon meant.

China will lose its nuclear balls.

>>29772405
>south korea helping out unless directly attacked

>>29778677
Yes we have.

>>29773814
They are in rice and a few other grains.

They wouldn't starve like the 50's

>>29773952
>China has always spent virtually all of its energy trying to keep itself in one piece.

So what was the Korean War?

>>29775025
Good luck having $4 trillion (India+Mexico+Indonesia) in total replace $12 trillion.

>>29778756
>what is investment

>>29777219
>So ignoring the fact that the US has a Standard missile specifically designed to shoot down terminal-stage ballistic missiles,

Nope

>>29777649
(You)

>>29778776
Would be a complete waste for such a niche missle.

>>29778685
We have used BDM to take down hypersonics?

>>29778762
>America
>investing public money in shitholes while great depression 2.0 is going on

>>29778827
Indeed we have used a BDM to take down a hypersonic target

>>29778837
>not moving to more viable options regardless.

>>29777704
>My god , is this site filled with idiots? Don't you fucking understand that the carrier would not be able to move more than a few feet from the moment it detects the incoming missile and the moment it hits?

Considering that we're talking about a ballistic weapon, that would take about 15 minutes to hit after launch, said launch being detected and the carrier notified within 90 seconds of launch, yes, you are an idiot.

The carrier will have moved more than a mile from the initial target point. The HGV will have to maneuver to try to hit. It's unpowered, every maneuver costs it speed that can't be regained. It makes an expensive splash in the ocean.

>>29777738
MAD disagrees

>>29778227
Thats not an impeachable offense.

>>29777829
>payload isn't strong enough to sink it even if it hits a bit off?

If it's not a nuke, it needs to hit to do damage. One non-nuke hit will not sink a carrier. You're an imbecile, with no understanding of reserve buoyancy, if you assume otherwise.