Hollis v Lynch thread. ATF going down in flames edition.

>>29566729
Nice....I can no wait to get a belt fed AR just because.

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>mfw he said m16 not protected under 2a and that they are as dangerous as explosives

https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1681489_NFA_cases__Hollis_and_Watson_v__Lynch__3rd_COA_argument_4_4__5th_COA_on_4_6_.html&page=200

Thread

>>29566729
COME ON, DADDY NEEDS A NEW PAIR OF AUTOSEARS

>>29567936
$20 autosears when?

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>>29567951
Soon

>>29566729
Fuck.. don't make me get my hopes up.

Daddy wants a fully auto PPS for home defence/light vehicle dispatching.

>>29567912
Why are these forums layouts all so bloody disgusting? Is there a way to show more posts per page? Customize the bull away?

>>29568016
Because they don't use vBulletin/XenForo and integrate ads into the post area, instead of having them above and below the posts.

I will hereby occupy the role of realist, and shall declare this case will never rule in our favor due to the incompetence of the man arguing the case.

>>29568251
Provide an example of his incompetence

>>29568016

No, because arfcom is the most Jewish forum in the world, where they expect people to pay a subscription and then inundate you with ads anyway... then pretend you are paying for some greater cause or to support a nonprofit instead of just paying a business to post on a forum.

That website is seriously retarded.

>>29566729

The biggest problem for the people trying to stop this case is the supreme court has repeatedly stated the second amendment protects "military equipment" and also guns in "common use".

I would argue that common use would apply to guns that the government uses for official purposes and not only "civilian" guns. If you are to have a well regulated militia of the people, the people must be as well armed as the government or have the capacity to obtain such arms legally.

The hughes amendment you could argue creates a power vacuum in which only the wealthy and connected can obtain the same level of "arms" the government has and it is extremely low because of the defacto ban. Every civilian machine gun will eventually be destroyed and as time goes on new machine gun technology would make those old machine guns unfit for service by the people.

But, finally. I pose this question I wish someone would address. If the ATF is arguing machine guns are so dangerous and destructive, how is it lawful (or ethical) then for the government to give machine guns to police to be use against citizens? If machine guns were truly so destructive as they claim, the police and people enforcing the law should not have access to them but over many years you can see police have been given many sub-machine guns and assault rifles to use.

If Hilary gets it this'll all go up in smoke anyway.

>>29568564
>how is it lawful (or ethical)
>ATF
>lawful or ethical

kekkest top m9

>>29567711
When does he say that

Im too lazy to listen to it but can someone tell me if we're winning or not? Btw im from Cali if that helps

>>29568379
His argument

If we win, I'm going to take out a loan and get a 7.62x51 minigun.

>>29568951
>Btw im from Cali if that helps
Unfortuntely, "we" probably won't mean "you" like usual since you live there.
But IDK the cali rules regarding NFA items. IDK if being an NFA gun exempts you from any of your other bullshit rules.

>>29569091
He asked of where winning or not you fucking dumbass he wasn't asking for a detailed description that has no word win or lose

>>29569160
>if

>>29569091
California bans all NFA items, so regardless of how this case goes, California gets nothing.

>>29569326

if the court rules you have a right to own machine guns, they probably will have to.

>>29569399
Not entirely.
California can take the 10th amendment and shit all over the 2nd, the same way IL, MA, NJ, and NY do. The argument could be made in state legislature that the 2nd makes the guns available to the common man, and then they just legislate away any possibility of having a fucking gun. Like they're basically doing.

CAN SOMEONE JUST FUCKING ANSWER THE QUESTION!

ARE WE WINNING OR ARE WE LOSING FUCK!

SOMEONE FUCKING ANSWER ME OR I SWEAR TO GOD I WILL GRAB A RANDOM FROG AND RIP IT'S FUCKING LEGS OFF WITH MY FUCKING TEETH FUCK!

>>29569451
no. we wont win. even if we win we still lose

>>29569443
That isn't the way the 10th works.

The 10th says that the States get what ever is not mentioned anywhere else in the constitution or amendments.

9th Amendment says the people have the right to what ever else isn't covered in the Constitution.

14th amendment says Federal > State and Equal Protection.

>>29569473
Sweet dude

>>29569443

I don't think it is legal to use that to take away rights. That is why so many anti-gun laws get BTFO when they reach the supreme court.

if you have a right to own militia equipment, they can get fucked.

http://www.bluecotton.com/campaigns/stambouliehlaw

>>29569511
>>29569502
I was thinking along the lines of
>you CAN own it
>but jump through all these hoops first
>and it has to be made in state
>with adherence to these laws that weren't covered earlier
>but don't worry! You still have your right to own guns.

>>29569451
Right now it's a tie. The last court was friendly to the ATF and hostile to us. This court was hostile to the ATF and friendly to us.

We won't know anything until they rule on it anyway.

Remember, we want a division in the circuit opinions.

That way SCOTUS has a greater chance of hearing the case.

>>29568989
I laughed
Fucking retards making statements they cant back

>>29571180
>That way SCOTUS has a greater chance of hearing the case
Seems like you've been under a rock these past couple of months, friend

>>29566729
Yesterday was the 30 year anniversary of the Hughes Amendment being added to the FOPA.

>>29571243
Sure, it'll be 4-4, but it'll only be appealed from the supportive circuit case

So the good ruling will hold

>>29568564
It's so the immigrants can't rebel when Donald Trump sticks them in concentration camps. So, it's okay.

>>29569443
By default, originally, the bill of rights only determined what the Federal government could do, not the individual state governments that were governed by their own consititutions. Over the years, more of the bill of rights has been enforced against the states. The ruling in McDonald vs. the City of Chicago determined that the second amendment could be enforced against violations by any individual state, something previously recognized. This was in 2010, it will be more years and cases before it's actually enforced as law. It seems unlikely that the supreme court would go against a previous decision and against the legal tides.

>>29568564
To your last point I would say there are two ways of looking at this. First there is the idea that sovereign states have a monopoly on the legal use of violence. There for in order to protect the common good the enforcement mechanism for such state can use any means necessary to protect itself and it citizens.

The second analysis is more based in the idea that government agents are better trained and regulated in their use of these destructive devices than the average citizen. There is a compelling government interest to protect public safety in ensuring highly dangerous devices are only used by trained professionals and it is narrowly tailored to only limit a certain class of these devices namely fully automatic firearms.

I DO NOT SUPPORT THESE ARGUMENTS THEY ARE PURELY HYPOTHETICAL!

>>29569451
>>29570739
The ruling is less important than the opinion. Depending on how the court justifies the ruling really effects how much of a victory it is. If the court rules on a technical point and doesn't issue a broad new rule the status quo is maintained.

>>29571320
No it won't even go 4-4. They won't grant cert or they will and it will go 5-3 (Kagan will switch) for the owner against the ATF on a bullshit technical point. Constitutional avoidance is the watchword for this.

>>29566729
>it must be both dangerous and unusual for it to not be protected
FFS guns are supposed to be dangerous and deadly. thats the fuckign point. So you can kill your enemies, foreign or domestic. Fuck sporting purposes and collectible curiosities.
Firearms are weapons. Designed and built to kill. "Sporting purposes" bullshit rustles my jimmies everytime.

>>29569503
Listen here buddy, I ain't sweet and I'm not your dude.

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Bump

>>29572553
are you retarded? dangerous as in spontaneous combustion and shit. like will the gun leak radioactive isotopes into the water supply

>>29572293
I don't think the monopoly argument carries any weight in the United States, or hell even in common law countries.

Even in the UK and Australia where it may be very difficult to own guns and illegal to prepare them for use when things go bump in the night, you can still absolutely shoot someone if you happen to be out hunting and someone tries to kill you.

>>29569000
>trips
>just one minigun
I'm putting one on the roof of my car and one in the trunk facing backwards.
Tailgate me; I fucking dare you.

>>29569000
Because it's motorized, I seem to recall that you can actually legally purchase one without a tax stamp (it's just a slightly modified motorized Gatling gun.)

>>29574183
No, anything with an electronic trigger is a machine gun unless it's manual operation (ie bolt action or whatever).

>>29574183
It's the motorised part that actually makes it illegal though, cranked ones are legal as the ATF considers the crank the trigger.

>>29574266
>>29574273
Damn. I thought it was the same as a Gatling gun...

>>29574183
Taken from
26 U.S.C. 5845(b): DEFINITIONS (MACHINEGUN)
27 CFR 479.11: MEANING OF TERMS
The 7.62mm Aircraft Machine Gun, identified in the U.S. military inventory as the "M-134"
(Army), "GAU-2B/A" (Air Force), and "GAU-17/A" (Navy), is a machinegun as defined by 26
U.S.C. 5845(b). Rev. Rul. 55-528 modified.
ATF Rul. 2004-5
https://www.atf.gov/file/83561/download

>The Minigun is not a Gatling Gun. It was not produced under the 1862 - 1893 patents of the
original Gatling Gun. While using a basic design concept of the Gatling Gun, the Minigun does
not incorporate any of Gatling's original components and its feed mechanisms are entirely
different. Critically, the Minigun shoots more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a
single function of the trigger, as prescribed by 26 U.S.C. 5845(b). See United States v. Fleischli,
305 F.3d 643, 655-656 (7th Cir. 2002). See also Staples v. United States, 511 U.S. 600, 603
(1994) (automatic refers to a weapon that "once its trigger is depressed, the weapon will
automatically continue to fire until its trigger is released or the ammunition is exhausted");
GEORGE C. NONTE, JR., FIREARMS ENCYCLOPEDIA 13 (Harper & Rowe 1973) (the term
"automatic" is defined to include "any firearm in which a single pull and continuous pressure
upon the trigger (or other firing device) will produce rapid discharge of successive shots so long
as ammunition remains in the magazine or feed device in other words, a machinegun");
WEBSTER'S II NEW RIVERSIDE -UNIVERSITY DICTIONARY (1988) (defining
automatically as "acting or operating in a manner essentially independent of external influence or
control"); JOHN QUICK, PH.D., DICTIONARY OF WEAPONS AND MILITARY TERMS 40
(McGraw-Hill 1973) (defining automatic fire as "continuous fire from an automatic gun, lasting
until pressure on the trigger is released").

>>29573098
>Guns aren't supposed to be dangerous
who's the retard?

>>29571636
This.

>>29572398
The fires of a thousand hells await them should they do this.

Bump, you burger eating fucks better have your freedoms fully intact by the time I make it there.

>>29573142
Theoretically it's like that in Canada as well, bring illegal to own guns for defense but not to use them for such if you get attacked in your home or whatever.
However they will still charge you with everything possible. They know that you won't lose and did not commit an offence under the law, so instead they drag the case out and bankrupt you with legal fees to punish you for daring to shoot Chief Lysol charging you in your home with a machete
I would be surprised if Aus and the UK did not do this as well

>>29568570
Separation of judicial and legislative powers.

Poorfag here, when we win I can't wait to take my 10/22 to a gunsmith and have it converted to select fire. Do most gunsmiths know how to convert weapons but don't because its illegal right now?

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>>29581265
Just use a string.

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>>29581769

HIDE YOUR DOG

>>29581769
Will that even work on a 10/22? Im just curious

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>>29568564
>I would argue that common use would apply to guns that the government uses for official purposes and not only "civilian" guns. If you are to have a well regulated militia of the people, the people must be as well armed as the government or have the capacity to obtain such arms legally.

This makes good sense to me.

I don't see how machine guns ever got 'banned' in the first place.

Blatantly unconstitutional.

>>29582252
Any gun with a reciprocating charging handle.

>>29582288
I don't know all the details, but apparently if you go watch the footage of the day the bill got passed, the guys who wanted to pass it manipulated the voters into voting for it. The whole thing was apparently just complete bullshit.

>>29582519
I've heard that as well. If it's true, then what a farce.

>>29582252
Fuck yeah it will.

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>>29571636
The camps are for American citizens

>>29577299
>implying Uncle Toms with thousands of dollars worth of pre-ban MGs and Fudds won't fuck us over

>>29572610
Edgy as fuck dude, sweet as fuck

>>29583071
You mean the vanishingly small amount of people who own full auto, a portion of which would adore having access to modern full auto funs? Those people?

Hoarding full auto weapons like it's an investment is a pants-on head retarded idea.

>>29582519
The amendment failed to pass, but some nigger snuck it back into the bill when they made the final vote, and no one noticed till after it passed.

The Supreme Court later ruled that although it was a sleazy-as-fuck way to do it, it wasn't illegal.

>>29583241
Also gotta remember that many of the collectors own guns that will still be worth a fortune. An original FG42 will still be ~$200k whether full-autos are banned or not.

>>29583241
>A Limited supply of items isn't a viable investment vehicle

Are you retarded? If they're a good that is limited, and there's a slight possibility of the number being smaller based on stupidity, how would you not want to invest?

You're not buying a '94 civic, there's only ~100k or so for people to own

>>29581769
I don't get it?

>>29574273
So a piston motor with a clutch as the trigger would be legal?

>>29572293
>there is the idea that sovereign states have a monopoly on the legal use of violence
Clearly the second amendment does not support this, though. Not to say it isn't true in other countries, but the people are in charge of violence in the US.

>>29572293
>government agents are better trained and regulated in their use of these destructive devices than the average citizen
I don't think the Constitution would support restrictions on rights based on skill. You don't need an English degree to have freedom of speech.

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Interview with Stamboulieh from yesterday:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LenVlxBEEdI

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>>29583702

Starts at 10.00.

>>29583299

To be a good investment it needs high liquidity and as the barrier to entry is high (ATF bullshit dissuades a lot of people) plus the number of people willing to buy machineguns is already limited (mainly as a function of knowledge, since most of the population still think MGs are illegal), it's a shit investment

>>29583357
You can tie a shoestring like that around a gun to make it work full auto. IIRC some dumb bastard actually registered a shoestring with the ATF years back as a full auto...thing.

So what does this mean?

>>29585511
Everyone can afford the tax, no one can afford the base price of the gun.

>>29568570
Well congratulate the republican party on already shitting the bed this election cycle practically gauranteeing her election.

>>29586968
FUCK the NEO CONS.

>>29586984
No.

They fuck you.

>>29586968
Fucking Neo cons.

>>29586984
Fucking kikes, they need to move to Israel and leave us alone.

>>29571180
>SCOTUS
>gun right case
Lol. They've been dragging their feet on cases regarding guns. Also, with the empty seat at the moment, we might be in for a very horrifying ride depending on how the year plays out.

>>29586994

Damn right. Bend over and spread 'em, boy.

>>29568564

The other thing to remember is this.

Until the NFA's enactment. The civilian arms industry was generally more advanced at any point in time than the military arms industry. The army was still using single shot arms as its primary means of putting lead down range while the civilians had access to faster firing repeaters and this stayed true until the NFA was enacted and the civilians suddenly found that they could no longer buy the firearms inexpensively anymore. Than in 1986 we could no longer purchase new firearms of certain types and the gap grew even more.

>>29574540
Guns are like a knife. They can be deadly, but their danger is controlled by the knowledge, skill and intent of its operator. Inherently, a gun is safe. Unless loaded and the trigger is pulled, it's about as dangerous as a brick.

But if the operator decides it's time for bloodshed, then a gun can be incredibly dangerous.

>>29566729
>The word "and". It's a conjunction.
I love this shit

So this has like no chance of being passed right?

>>29590285
Well it has a chance, not a huge chance but a chance nonetheless

>>29569451
Here's the real answer.

It all depends who ends up as our next president. They will fill the gap left by Scalia. And honestly, Ginsburg is old as fuck, so she'll definitely get replaced in the next 4-8 years. If a pro-gun president wins (probably not, Shillary is going to win) then I like our odds when this inevitably gets pushed all the way to the Supreme Court.

But since Shillary is probably going to win, we're boned.

>>29590728
>Shillary is probably going to win
You misspelled bernie "free stuff" sanders.

>>29590728
>You misspelled bernie "free stuff" sanders.
you're more delusional then his voters if you think he has a chance.

>>29590820
>>29590852
I do prefer him over shillary.
More neutral, less anti-gun, isn't as much of "progressivist" shill.

I hope to god he wins. I'm confident in being able to ward off most of his antigun attempts.

At the end of the day I don't trust Cruz, Trump is a hack, Hillary is a bitch, Bernie wins by default.

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>>29590968
>More neutral, less anti-gun, isn't as much of "progressivist" shill.

>>29591028
Go away Trump shill. He'll never get the presidency.

>le can't stump the Trump

Despite the fact that I almost wish he'd get elected so Mr Oliver would shut his mouth, 4 years of presidency isn't worth my own petty revenge.

>>29590852
The few people I know who are voting are voting for him. Apparently getting taxpayer funded collage is more important to most young people then freedom is.

>>29591082
He's pretty free about everything besides guns, which he's only not free about because twats like you refuse to break his support.

I don't know why it's so hard to understand that gun control is actually conservative, it just SEEMS liberal because single issue voters that would have run conservative or liberal have become flopped because
>oh muh GAAAAWD, you're a progun liberal?? I don't understand fudds as a voting group, so this hurts my brains!

>>29591108
Dunno about that one. Not the fag your talking about but the guys who wrote down the 2A were, you could say, the epitome of liberalism since they also had hands in it's inception. You fucks need to learn neo-liberalism and classic liberalism.

>>29591082
.22LR Minigun.

>>29591161
Liberalism is largely more an name to be passed on than a philosophy

>>29582252
Yes. Yes it will.

I know from.... witnessing this from close up.

It's more fun with an AK though or even an M1 carbine.

it only matters if the gop obtain the white house in november and retain the senate

remember to vote

>>29591082

hint: a college degree with increase your earning potential meaning you have more money. There's a reason why a lot of people want them

that said sanders has no chance which is good sine he's the only democrat running right now that has any chance

>>29592681
>thinking shillary will actually get indicted.

Do you realize just how fucked up our government is anon?

Bernman isn't going to make it.

Democrazy has been averted. The media has been shilling non-stop against the one person that the people are rallying behind and doing everything in their power to stop him from becoming president via scare tactics and lies.

It happens on both sides yes but the media is on the democrats side now no matter who you look at.

it's ogre anon.

>>29590968
I'm with you. Bernie Sanders might be a pie-in-the-sky idealist, but he at least wants to shift us away from the supply-side economic lies we've been slowly dying from, and he understands you start your bargin at a higher point than the desired outcome, unlike "realist" Shillary. And he is less swayed by antigun nonsense, although not perfect. He seems to have a specific agenda to fix our economy and crony corruption and not fuck with too much else.

>>29592719
>supply side economic lies
I'm not even gonna insult you though, it's just generally a fact that freer markets are more profitable.

>>29568564
Kek... imagine if the judge goes full retard our way and all Class 3 becomes unregulated because MUH MILITIA.

>>29592714

my point was that sanders isn't going to be the nominee so the democrats have almost no chance in the general

not even SJWs and gays want hilary. That's a problem for her

>>29592749
I'm pretty sure that if trump or cruz goes up against hillary they'd both lose.

You're underestimating just how powerful she is.

Liberals have a scorched earth policy in everything they do.

>>29592681
>free gender studies degree
>profitable
Kek

>>29592758
So powerful that she can't even get through a subway gate. Whew.

Real talk, I think it's hard to say. When it comes time to slugfest, the Republicans have had a lot more practice. The debates will probably not go her way. Up until now, she's practically been in a protective bubble. But since Sanders has upped the heat (just marginally), she's been losing support.

It's no coincidence. She looks terrible under confrontation.

>>29567711
With that logic, glocks aren't protected either.

>>29590968
No. He's a Marx Socialist in hiding.

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>>29592779
>so powerful that she can't even get through a subway gate

>>29592779
How do you possibly hold onto this confidence. There's literally no evidence that a Republican is going to win the presidency. Bernie has a better than 50% at the nomination; Democrat party will choose to consolidate all these first time and young voters for sale of party's future.

Hillary's outpolls Cruz and Trump rather handily.

Bernie BTFO both of them.

>>29592808
Reminder that if you think that, you need to vote Bernie

Which is fine, but unless you're willing to swallow your pride and do that then you'll get Hillary.

>>29592897
I'm not a party voter. I like Trump, I like Bernie, I like chaos.

>>29592808
The probability of Bernie winning is very slim at this point, so that's not particularly important right now.

Also, it's important to note that Hillary only recently overtook Cruz, and it's largely because the current republican environment is caustic. These early polls are skewed by the fighting inside the party, which affects Republicans a lot more than democrats.

Also, most of these online polls favor democrats to begin with because older voters disproportionately ignore them.

Either way, it still doesn't answer the reality: Hillary drops whenever she's in direct conflict. Even with Bernie's kiddie punches, she's struggling to hold onto credence. Meanwhile, the Republicans have hardened their positions and have gotten used to real challenges. I imagine it'll translate poorly for Hillary.

>>29591866
Suppressed

>>29567951
You'd still have the $200 tax stamp, Anon.

>>29593763
Still better than $200+WhateverAssRapeIsAFullAutoSearTheseDays

>>29592808
During Reagan's first run at office, Carter had a 25 pt polling advantage at this same time. Reagan ended up winning by 11 points. Don't put too much stock in polling, especially this far in advance of the general elections.

>>29574294
Does that assume that the power source is guaranteed? I assume that if the motor isn't running you aren't going to get many more rounds off.

>>29592808
>>29593779
Also, the "young and first time" voters is a meme Dems have been pushing for decades. The result is always the same, young people talk a lot of shit online and then fail to actually show up at the polls and end up under representing in the results. Your meme candidate is relying on meme voters, whereas adults who are actually too busy working to argue politics online and respond to polls actually will show up on election day.

>>29593774
The parts for full autos aren't really expensive though. Just like illegal to have and stuff.

Does anyone have proof that the ATF has approved of machine guns in the past? I know some has been passed around but want to reread it.

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>>29594158
Yeah
1681489_NFA_cases__Hollis_v__Lynch__Watson_v__Holder___p_134_Motion_for_leave_to_supplement_authority

One from post May 19th 1986, one from 1990, one from 2004.

>>29569551
>made in state

Cali prohibits manufacture of NFA items. If the court rules in our favor, a whole raft of Cali restrictions will be rendered null and void.

In related news, a school board in Fresno just voted to allow CCW by teachers on campus. Unanimous vote in favor, with the backing of the police chief. I predict much lib ass agony.

http://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/education/article71257917.html

>>29583449
No, because the clutch actuator would be considered the trigger and therefore one actuation of the "trigger" would fire multiple shots.

>>29594158
https://www.scribd.com/doc/296125465/2005-Approved-Form-1

>>29569551
>Law specifically banning interstate commerce
Lol

>>29566729
Here's audio for the Watson hearing that also happened recently. It didn't go quite as well, but there is still hope. http://www2.ca3.uscourts.gov/oralargument/audio/15-2859USAv.OnePalmettoetal.mp3

>>29594316
It would be a reversal of that other bullshit about intrastate commerce impacting interstate commerce, making it illegal to not be involved in interstate commerce.

Or would it? Fuck.

>>29593837
This. This is why you fucks should stop giving a shit about polls.

>>29592780
Well meme'd

I just want non nfa suppressors. Full auto is retarded

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>>29596182

>>29593997

not illegal to have, just illegal to put in your gun

>>29581769
Any vids?

>>29592733
That may be true to an extent, but it hurts the general populace. Bernie is not anticapitalist, he wants us to shift towards a more worker friendly capitalism.

>>29596726
Exactly. And it's important to note that having a large, healthy middle class with disposable income produces a far healthier profit cycle than the "burn hot and fast" of supply side. Less poverty means both better balanced tax income with less need for welfare.

>>29596472
> constructive intent

>>29596577
THAT....would be admission of a felony.

Kind of a bad idea.

>>29597508
>>29596577
>>29581769
Shoe string/rubberband trick is nothing new, there's vids of it on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5XzQ1BS7gU

>>29597599
Also go to 1:15 to see them shoot the gun.

I don't think it's a felony- it does the same thing as a bump fire stock.

>>29597620
>>29597599
That is different than the string by virtue of the string being mechanically operated by the bolt while holding the string, Which at this point has become the trigger.

That rubber band only merely helps reset the trigger, but the operator will still depress the trigger and manually operate the thing.