Bundeswehr

>>29513117
Weren't they unable to provide ammo for their training troops recently?

>>29513117
Weak, Poland would win a war with Germany now.

I think they're basically nonexistent

pussies

Literally for show. Europe basically exists under the protection of the US military. They've literally surrendered land from their nations to allow us to build up a military presence. Why that isn't a national embarrassment is puzzling to me. Oh well, keep eating that McDonald's, eurocuck.

>>29513117

Faggots. Incompetent, loud, drunk most of the time.

Also cowards who start crying for US nukes if some pro-talib farmer shoots a mosin in their direction.

My experience from my Afghanistan deployment. The whole ISAF was laughing at those retarded Germs.

>>29513117
They have decent gear and soldiers but are hampered by a severe lack of money, so much so that they can't maintain their equipment. Unless that changes, Germany's military as a whole cannot compete with any major military.

That includes Poland, by the way. Poland now has more Leopard 2s than Germany does, and they certainly are in better condition. Now, they aren't all upgraded to the standard of the newest German vehicles, but they're close, and starting a modernization program soon.

>>29513289
>severe lack of money
>Germany

Stop those euphemisms, it's not that they lack any money. Their organisation is just fucked up and led by retards, that's why they can't maintain their shit.

Goddamnit, they spent billions on new navy helicopters, just to discover they rust when flying over salt water. And the furnitures are too sensible for "dirty boots". That's what the German army is. Nothing else.

>>29513317
It's a lack of money going into maintaining these systems. If you happened to pay attention to the whole kerfluffle, a politician flat out went and said that.

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Same as Japan. A country with great military tradition and modern technological platforms that keeps a sceleton standing army for political reasons and as to not waste resources. They can roll out a powerfull military pretty quickly if they want. Especially with US protecting them so they have time to mobilise.

>>29513217
The us army does the same shit why is this news

>>29513736
Training without ammunition is not the same thing as live-fire excercise where you literally can't fire because you have no ammunition.

>>29513317

>Goddamnit, they spent billions on new navy helicopters, just to discover they rust when flying over salt water. And the furnitures are too sensible for "dirty boots".

Thats what you get for buying NH90's.

Shoulda gone Murrican or AgustaWestland if you wanted quality.

>>29513757
What makes you say it was because they had no access to any ammunition.

>>29513792
Because that's what I was asking about in the very first reply.

>>29513117

Might be able to win in a conventional offensive conflicts against much smaller nations, like Denmark, Austria and Belgium. Dunno about Dutchs.

Would be hard pressed to deal with Czechs if on the offensive. Would lose badly if it were to go on the offensive vs Switzerland or regional powers like Italy, but would likely be able to preserve status quo on the defensive.

Would lose, likely lose badly, against Poland. Would get steamrolled and curbstomped by France.
A French-Polish alliance would knock out Germany in under two months.

>>29513117
Well if this pic is any indication, they definitely have some of the best traps.

>>29513117

Neutered. They're the only 1st world country whose current army would probably lose to its WWII counterpart.

It's a shame, since they've got a lot of good equipment and designs.

>>29513117

Bundeswehr has managed to destroy themselves in last two decades.

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>>29513117
Fancy high tech equipment in places, most of them not even remotely needed compared to replacement and even just maintenance of basic gear.

Training is down in the gutter with most of the recruits being pretty unsuitable, complete farces of requirements and activities and organisation. The officer corps is a complete joke too with very few people even reasonably competent, especially compared to the historical standards of the german military.

Despite the money going into the forces, and a few units that might be considered passable, it is a clusterfuck that is utterly unfit for the purpose of collective defence with its neighbours, and in a conventional conflict it'd suffer disproportionately badly on every single level due to the lack of competence on show. It really should be considered in a similar state to a lot of 2nd/3rd world forces, not alongside it's 1st world piers.

Essentially the bare functional minimum. Lots of great designs and equipment, but performance, conflict readiness and overall structure wise they are pretty weak at the moment.

>No money
>Managed by a woman with no military background
>Melting rifles

That's pretty much all I know about Germany's military.

German here. It's pretty much a joke and always was. Gear from the cold war was complete shit, didn't camouflage you very well, was loud (helmet and belt made a lot of noise when walking) and uncomfortable. I got out of doing my conscription, a friend of mine went because he's really into guns and wanted to fire some big stuff but his unit didn't even have any MGs left. They were either broken or sent to Afghanistan. Another friend joined the Bundeswehr voluntarly and went to Afghanistan. He had to buy the most practical stuff himself and a lot of the patrol cars didn't have electrically controled roof MGs but those you have to handle by turning 2 wheels. Then there's the other stuff like the G36 melting, then getting inacurate after prolonged fire...

>>29513662

>Same as Japan. A country with great military tradition and modern technological platforms that keeps a sceleton standing army
>Skeleton army
>Japan

Beside skeleton samurais being really spooky the JSDF could basically won over anyone beside the 3 bigger ones.

>>29513844

It's (sadly) a real lady.

>>29513970
In an anime maybe.

>>29513919
>managed

Does the US secretary of defense have any military background?

>>29513272

>have another country pay for your defense

That shit isn't embarrassing, it's brilliant. What money we waste in shooting sandfuckers and waving our enormous dick around they can invest in infrastructure and things that actually matter.

>>29513919

And pretty much everything you need to know.

Oh, and a CAS was rejected because PREGNANT soldiers couldn't fit comfortably in them.

>>29513919

civilian oversight of military forces is a staple of western powers.

>>29514004
Great idea. When are you going to start investing in infrastructure, before or after you finish building mosques and funding social programs?

>>29513990
Carter has always been a civilian, but has been doing defense related things for decades.

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>>29513919
>Managed by a woman with no military background
> the Federal Minister of Defence is Commander-in-chief of the Bundeswehr, the German armed forces, with around 253,430 active personnel. Article 115b decrees that in the state of defence, declared by the Bundestag with consent of the Bundesrat, the command in
I never realised Germany had a politician in charge of the military, instead of an actual military official.

>In contrast to many other Western countries, the Finnish Defence Forces have an actual military commander with direct authority over all forces
>in contrast to many
Is this why Western European militaries have all gone to shit?

>>29514051

Social programs is infrastructure. Religious fuckwits aside, the euros have a good thing going for as long as we're willing to help.

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I prefer the Bundesheer.

>>29514076

Wh- WE have a politician in charge of the military. You ever hear of the Commander in fucking Chief?

>>29514017
this
defence ministers only real job is securing funding anyway

>>29513986

They have a fleet on par with france or the UK

>B-BUT MUH AIR CARRIERS !

The Izumo is as big as le Charle de Gaule I wonder why ! Their air fleet is on par with france and as for their ground force in term of training and equipment they are definitely a match for anything on the other side and they have roughly 150.000 active soldiers. The only problem is that military personnal no matter the grade is considered as a grunt by society and the pay isn't that great that plus no work on the field for 70 years will surely make things failing hard at some moments.

US Army Officer stationed in Germany here. Bundeswehr are pretty cool guys who can be motivated, but others don't seem to care. And they generally act professional. They just don't seem to have the backing or support.


>>29513990
Ash Carter is a theoretical physicist who taught at Harvard but somehow ended up working in the DoD since the Clinton years. Take it for what you will.

>>29513117
Female defense minister, must I say more?

>>29514094
Does the president actually actively dabble in military affairs, or does he leave it to the secretary of defence?

>we
I'm not Murrican though.

>According to the Finnish constitution, the President of Finland is the commander-in-chief of all Finnish military forces. In practice, the everyday command and control is in the hands of Chief of Defence and the Commander of the Finnish Border Guard.

>>29514106

>They have a fleet on par with france or the UK

You really don't have a clue, do you?

>>29514076

>Is this why Western European militaries have all gone to shit?

There's a reason civilian oversight of military power is a thing in first world countries.

There is a saying that when you're a hammer, all your problems begin to look like nails.

>>29514123

Nope, CIC is the CIC, President is the guy with the finger on the trigger. He's literally where the buck stops.

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>>29514147
>if the military was in control, the borders would've been shut for economical and Muslim migrants years ago

>>29514157
Yes, I understand that, but how much do modern US presidents actually decide on doctrine, equipment, contracting and such? Does he just sign stuff he agrees with, or does he actively fuck things up by meddling where he shouldn't be allowed to?

Do Germans consider it an honorable choice to start a career in the military? That's usually how you can spot if a country's military culture is good or bad.

>>29514167
>but how much do modern US presidents actually decide on doctrine, equipment, contracting and such?
Defence ministers dont do that stuff either. Everyone has their staff of advisors.

>>29514084
>*social programs are infrastructure
No, they aren't.
>as long as we're willing to help
Expect to see a shift in foreign policy favouring Eastern European cooperation within the next decade, they're the frontlines now.

hahahahahaha

>>29514167


>Yes, I understand that, but how much do modern US presidents actually decide on doctrine, equipment, contracting and such? Does he just sign stuff he agrees with, or does he actively fuck things up by meddling where he shouldn't be allowed to?

Like any system of this magnitude, especially the US military, logistics and whatnot are handled by the the chiefs of staff. This guy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chairman_of_the_Joint_Chiefs_of_Staff

reports directly to the president. And yes, the president can meddle and fuck up operations, I.E. the entirety of the W. Bush presidency.


>if the military was in control, the borders would've been shut for economical and Muslim migrants years ago

Your picture is appropriate. Have you learned nothing from the last clusterfuck we had in Europe?

Civilian oversight was established by the general cry of "NEVER AGAIN."

>>29514170

Nope. We consider it to be a waste of time and your future. Good luck trying to find a job after spending several years in the army.

>>29514232
>Civilian oversight was established by the general cry of "NEVER AGAIN."
Well they're certainly not doing a very good job at it.

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OP pic bothers me her rig is all kind of fucked right there. Anyone knows what is happening?

>>29514192

Yes, yes they are. You may not like them, but it's important to manage and invest in your human resources.

>>29514139

6th worldwide by tonnage. It has more ships, aircrafts and nearly twice more personnel than france.

>>29514248
Ordnung

>>29514248
http://i.imgur.com/GpTq3.jpg

fuck if i know

>>29514244

I'd even say that they pretty much fucked up badly m8.

>>29514250
That isn't infrastructure, that's social welfare.

>>29514248
>http://i.imgur.com/GpTq3.jpg

The strap around her right arm is looped through her suspender, and it's just kind of pulling it to the side.

From what I can tell, the strap seems to be connected to her armband thing. Might be to stop it from slipping off, but it seems like it'd get in the way if she needed to raise her arm so I dunno.

>>29514250
Not him, but that is literally not what infrastructure means. Look it up

>>29514244

Well, no world wars since the last. So far so good.

>>29514106
For fuck's sake, the DDHs are not capable of carrying F-35Bs, nor will they ever be. They're strictly platforms for helicopters. You know why? They need them all for ASW. China has a lot of submarines. Further, the Japs don't need CVs, as they have an unsinkable one in their home islands.

>>29514232

>Civilian oversight was established by the general cry of "NEVER AGAIN."

Dude, Nazi germany wasn't a military dictatorship as in Thailand or Myanmar. Civilians just happened to give said oversight to guys wanting to invade the whole planet.

>>29513117
She's a force I'd reckon with

>>29514291

Here, lemme do your work for you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_infrastructure

Like I said, you may not like it, but it's there.

>>29513919
>Melting rifles
t. Ursula

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>>29514289
Correct. Normally the strap goes through the shoulder flaps, but she's wearing the rain jacket.

>>29514248
I have no idea of anything in her kit.
>earpro poorly placed, ON TOP OF her beret
>random straps everywhere
>uncomfortable placement of radio and pistol
>armbands
>squad radio without headset
So is she a trainer or security person in a live fire excercise? Why does she have all that gear without any purpose?

>>29514289

>it seems like it'd get in the way if she needed to raise her arm so I dunno.

Oh shit nigger, Germany has become so politically correct that their clothes are literally MADE to prevent you from heiling.

>>29514305

That was mostly after WWI, not II. Though, yeah, it didn't help much. We could fill semesters with this subject though, it's fascinating.

>>29514264

And how many of them can it deploy in a cohesive battlegroup and logistically supported battlegroup to the other side of the world?

How many nuclear missiles can it launch?

How many landing craft can it launch?

How many amphibious assault ships do they have?

How many AEW can they deploy to the middle of an ocean?

How many marine type personnel do they have?

How many bases do they have outside their own waters and where?

If you think that having more helos and crew with a greater number of raw escorts makes a good navy and thats all that matters, then you truly are a hopeless retard.

There's a reason that the US, UK and France are blue water navies, and that Japan is not. A powerful local defence navy, but they are not anything on what it takes to be considered a WORLD navy.

>>29514329
Well that's retarded, thanks for the pic.

>>29514331

She is cute. CUTE. It is everything that matters.

>>29514351
>How many nuclear missiles can it launch?

This is where Japan's gonna get dicked in the ass if there's ever serious combat between them and the Chinks. I mean, I know the Chinks wouldn't use nukes, but you can damned be sure they'll go AAAHH CHINGU CHONGU WE HAVE NUKES!

>>29514360
If CUTE would even carry its goddamn fucking gear, I would only mind it because of its detrimental effect to military performance.

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>>29514351

I'll consider the UK navy as a blue water navy the day they have PLANES on their carriers.

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>>29514331
She's an overseer for shooting training.

>>29514286

Which is...a type of infrastructure! Tadaa.

>be OPFOR on exercise with KSK
>bout 25 guys placed randomly in camp
>sit behind a tarp during rainy night, surrounded by big compound
>suddently 6 flashbangs go off all over camp within 3 seconds
>see flashbang land 2 meters from my face
> loud bang quickly followed by 4 simunition shots to my chest
>lay in fetal position for 14 minutes while camp is scourged by german invasion
>hear german yelling and 3 LMGS working in tandem to repel counterattack
>Suddently operator looking guy stands over me,
>says in broken english that he needs a pic of my face
>puts off mask in shame and gets flashed for the second time
>another 30 minutes passes and theyleave

Was pretty fun.

>>29514376
So literally no fucking point to any of her gear.

>>29514395
Did you have any guards or were you sitting there just to get shot at and make them feel good?

>>29514368
Hey man, I'd fight harder with a pretty girl watching me

>>29514410
they gave us a few sentries that got hit by marksmen. Basically happens by exercise overwatchers with walkie talkie getting told who just got shot and then walking over to them and asking em to lay down. It was pretty fucked up. our fullface masks got covered in condensation so i almost only saw a dark shadow before i was hit. but it was cool to see them in action. Their flashbangs got 0,5 second fuses and they run through the door the same time as the flashbang comes off. We are danish so ofc we had a big cake in one of the huts for eating after the exercise was over. However it was on a table next to a wood-fiber door that was blown up during the entry, So the cake got blasted to shit by fragments from the door. That part sucked

>>29514374

That is one thing being worked on, yeah. But having a very powerful amphibious assault force that can deploy pretty much anywhere in the world and be logistically supported, with a global network of bases, nuclear submarines and TLAMs...they're definitely in the class of blue water requirements to project power. The prime aspect is, as always, logistics, and the UK has extremely potent logistics for its force.

Only a couple more years though, till that one mark is checked.

>>29514402
You're just stupid. She has no extra gear.

>>29514384
Stop. LOOK UP WHAT INFRASTRCTURE ACTUALLY MEANS

I want you to shame yourself

>>29514457
>they gave us
>that got hit by marksmen
So a completely futile excercise for you. Essentially just there to get shot up by the big bad KSK men. Hell, even the KSK would get more out of it if you were actually allowed to plan your own defence and they had to work against it, instead of just them waltzing straight in.

>>29514368

>Germany
>Post 45
>Military performance

That schöne Fraulein only purpose is to look photogenic and suck the few officers with powers' dick.

>>29514475

Okay.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_infrastructure

Oh hey look at that. Gosh, it's even in the name and everything.

>>29514492
we were 100% there for their fault. they were training hostage rescue where we were supposed to be at the same readiness level as some goatfuckers in a village somewhere that has been farting at the same spot in a couple of weeks before suddently getting wrecked. i think they were trying to match that scenario. However when shit broke loose we were allowed to defend ourselves as well as possible. 2 of the KSK guys got shot and they missed roof access openings in 3 buildings. Still they wrecked us.

>>29514460
Japan also has quite a few amphibs.

probably the only NATO-pact EU country that made the quota.
The Fallschirmjagers are crazy according to my dad.
He told me how he went hiking with some of them and one of those guys dropped himself down a cliff in the dark using only plants to slow himself down.
>>29513217
No that was the Dutch army.

>>29514522
So, fucked up the training of both Danish troops and KSK by creating an unrealistic situation, instead of taking full advantage of the chance, giving the KSK training against a modern military and the Danes training against professional special forces. Maybe your higher ups can make sense of it, but I can't. I'd have fucking hated having to just sit as their targets.

>>29514529

And how far from home can they support a hostile landing in force with enough marines to combat a conventional foe and fight it out over a long period?

The answer is "not very". They are local area amphibs only, not meant for proper amphibious assault on a far off nation. Compare to the US' amphibious fleet, the UK's Albions, Ocean and Bays, France's Mistrals. Or again, more specifically, the logistics behind it.

Japan cannot project power outside its local area. That alone removes it from the equation of "better" navy. France would win be default, because they can actually reach the damn warzone.

>>29514076
It went to shit because the Russians failed.
There wasn't a direct reason to keep funding an army if the main enemy just ceased to exist.
The main reason there were strong armies in the first place in Europe was to fight off a possible Soviet/East German invasion which just never happend.

>>29513662

the JSDF has a larger budget than France. They would kick the shit out of the Bundeswehr.

>>29514475

Goddamn, you're gonna feel dumb.

>>29514573
And now the EU is collapsing, Russian military is modernizing, economical migrants are flooding and countries are slowly but surely turning against eachother.

>>29514123

the SecDef is a civilian too you fucking retard

>>29514561
What would Japan be doing elsewhere? Japan is only concerned with Japan's immediate surroundings. You say "OH NO IT'S A SHIT NAVY BECAUSE IT'S NOT BLUE WATER", but that's because Japan has no goals which demand expeditionary capability. It merely wants to defend itself. Its entire navy has to be viewed from that perspective. While it doesn't have that sort of range, it doesn't have to. What conflict would Japan get into that it isn't around Japan? You have to view it from this perspective, otherwise you're completely retarded.

>>29513282

This, as someone from a neighbouring country, is exactly my experience regarding germans

>>29514554
You misunderstand. it was not supposed to be KSK against Danish military. IT was KSK against village militants who held a hostage. We were supposed to have same circumstances and act as those militants. Plus i think they hover to the side of us having to loose. this was not just CQB training that could be reset within half an hour. it was a week-long scenario with complete roleplay. i was even out herding sheep and shit. You cant just reset that. However on the bigger exercises they spread out the camps so they get multiple raids. Did one of those with navy seals. got kicked to the ground by a broad guy named Doug, that was pretty fun too.

>>29514611

That's some serious backpedalling there.

The question was not "Is japan a shit navy". For their limited scope of local water defense, they are very good.

The claim was "Japan's navy is better than the Uk or France's".

The answer to that is no. Not even close. The ability to project power abroad and to have the logistical network to support that worldwide, fire nuclear weapons, cruise missiles and have nuclear submarines is so far off the power scale on a navy to navy worldwide basis compared to anything that doesn't have those things isn't even a fucking comparison.

>>29514625
Yeah and I'd be pissed off about being used as an incompetent fucking sheepherder for an entire excercise, when I've spent a year being trained and training my rookies into their roles. Waste of fucking time. I could be home masturbating to my animes or shitposting on /k/, instead of that shit.

You were a conscript, weren't you?

>>29513990
He current sec def was a physicist at Harvard who got sucked into defense during the 70s, meaning he was probably working on some major military project (nukes, airplanes, satellites, whatever). The dude has experience in the DoD, but not the military proper.

>>29513117


Cant stop migrating barbarians from invading.

>>29514648
Even lower m8. national guard on voluntary basis. That means i spend my time in the university and if i got a week off i can get paid to do roleplaying and be beat up by special forces once in a while. its a nice change of scenery from being buried in a book.

I can totally understand your point of view as a professional or former professional soldier.

>>29514693
Oh, well that makes more sense then. I was imagining it from a wrong perspective. That'd be pretty fun actually.

>>29514643
I'm not the anon you were originally arguing with, I just take exception to what you've said. See, your whole qualification for "best navy" is retarded, because it focuses on metrics which don't make any fucking sense. The JMSDF is the best navy for pursuing its policies. The Royal Navy barely has enough surface combatants to cover current patrol missions, let alone what will be needed to protect their CVs. France is in a slightly better position, but not by much.

So really, no. The JMSDF is the superior navy.

>>29514589
It went well throughout the 90's but then we got pussified.
Nobody expected that Europe would get killed like this.

>>29514250
>invest in your human resources.

Subsidizing garbage is not a sound investment.

Its more like an enemy action.

>>29514515

I study political organization and international relations (hello unemployment my old friend...) and that kind of super edgy concept that takes too far basic concept has few if not no importance at all. When taken too far "infrastructure" can mean absolutely everything. Damn even your local supermarket supply of cowaduty can be considered "soft infrastructure" in that regard because it "maintains the economic, health, and cultural and social standards of a country".

>>29514086
Of course you do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M198wc1V1lE

Here, enjoy it. Austria is even more laughable than germany.

>>29514167
The US president has EXTREME authority on foreign policy matters. While many people believe the president has a lot of power at home, there isn't too much he can do directly since congress can just say "no". However by appointing joint chiefs of staff and the sec def, the president can certainly have an effect on acquisitions (for example, Robert Gates the last Sec Def cancelled the F-22 raptor order, and McNamara long before him ended the SR71 orders). Congress approves the budget though, so the president can't just draw infinitely without someone giving him approval to do so.

With regards to influencing foreign affairs the US president has a lot of authority. The Intelligence apparatus is entirely under his control (CIA, DIA, NSA, NRO, etc.) and the state department (our ambassadors who give money to foreign nations and fosters relations) is too. In effect, the president can covertly influence numerous world affairs just by ensuring money goes to the right people, or overtly by bringing stuff up to the UN (which at least gives us justification and international approval for what the president will do).

Combined with American economic dominance via the World Bank, Federal Reserve, and the universality of the US dollar and the guaranteed value of US treasury bonds, the United States can do a shit load without it actually look like we did anything at all.

The president can influence that through choosing chairmen of the Fed, supporting the right people, etc., but very little happens DIRECTLY due to his actions.

German here.
The Bundeswehr is a joke.
But, like some other anon mentioned, our “special forces“ are pretty crazy, at least the ones I have met (Fallschirmjäger, Kampftaucher, Fernspäher and a few more), mainly because you actually have to be determined and a good soldier in general to join them, works great to weed out all the fags and turks joining nowadays.

>>29514351
It's often believed that Japan could probably have a nuke ready to go within a year or two.

They have an advanced rocket and space program, and an advanced nuclear program.

They could probably do it in secret if needed, though they wouldn't be able to test them without notice.

If China ramps up more I wouldn't be surprised if Japan became like Israel. "Technically" never admitting it has nukes, but everyone knows that it does.

>>29514715

France really isn't doing better than the UK right now, other than having an active carrier (Which is going to be disappearing soon for a while, this is why you need more than one for coverage).

But of course, if you set yourself the lowest bar possible, of course you'll do good at it. Defending ones local waters isn't exactly shooting for the stars. Both the UK and France do that AND carry out patrols worldwide AND carry out actual operational deployments in hostile areas AND support various ongoing theatres of war AND have high readiness groups for sudden response on standby AND are helping support defense in the Baltics AND carry out continuous nuclear deterrence AND have the ball aching terror of nuclear submarine lurking patrols that could be pretty much anywhere at any time. To say that they're accomplishing less than Japan is laughable. When was the last time Japan even did anything naval in anger? I didn't see them off Libya shelling and striking Gaddafi like both UK and France were. Nor do I see Japan continuously clearing mines from the Strait of Hormuz. I don't see Japan out there escorting American carriers in active theatres off hostile shores.

If you don't see the scale difference of capability and superiority of power there, then you're hopelessly clawing on for marks here. Hell, nuclear weapons ALONE make the arguement a complete non factor.

New Zealand's navy takes care of its requirements perfectly too. Doesn't mean they're superior to the US because they lost a bit of carrier coverage once for a brief time during the reduction from 11 to 10.

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>>29514561

By your definition of what makes a great navy immigrants smugglers from the Mediterranean are the best in the fucking world because they can cross a fucking sea with 5000 people on board with pic related.

>>29514715

>because it focuses on metrics which don't make any fucking sense
>metrics which don't make any fucking sense
>metrics that don't make sense

He was talking about logistics you weeaboo. You never heard the phrase "amateurs study tactics, generals study logistics"?

Trying to say that logistics is a "retarded metric" is just hilariously stupid.

>>29514795

>Purposefully misrepresenting an arguement that factually crushes yours in order to try and stay in the debate

That's some desperation right there.

>>29514826

The retarded metrics isn't "logistic" it's taking the range of operation as the sole determining factor. If your incrediblawesome navy can fucking go in goddamn space with solar sails yet can get sunk by a redsandnigger from mars with a mosin it is indeed a shit navy you got yourself.

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>>29514842

>I-I can go t-to Lybia !
>D-DE GAULLE STRONK !

Whatever.

>>29514877

Like >>29514842 said, purposefully misrepresenting the point and overly simplifying it is only making it clearer you're getting pretty desperate.

Simply fact is.

Both the UK and France can:
- Deploy more power to 99% of the locations in the world than Japan
- Carry out greater varieties of operations than Japan
- Can continue their operations for longer than Japan
- Can scale up to vastly higher levels of capability with their existing forces than Japan can (Fixed Wing aviation, much heavier marine kit, SCALP, Tomahawk, D51, Trident)
- Carry out more concurrent operations than Japan in different places
- Deny greater amounts of waters than Japan can

These are all strategic, large scale factors. None of these are "minor" elements. Saying Japan has "more helicopters" or "some more escorts" or "a bit further ahead on ABM" is all talking tactically. It's talking about little bits here and there.

But on a mature and global comparitive of capability, reach and strength on a STRATEGIC scale, the one that wins wars and changes countries, the UK and France leave Japan in the far far dust.

>>29514921

>thoroughly losing the debate and being reduced to mindless insulting of France in a theatre they did damn well in

Ya blew it.

>>29514943

>I can change countries like... eh... Libya or Mali !

On the strategic scale nothing is more important than Russia and China and guess just WHO is right next to both with various territory disputes ?

>>29514794
Let's just compare the JMSDF to the RN here for a moment.

The Japanese have 26 major surface combatants, not talking about its shitty frigates. The Brits have a total of 19. The Jap ships are on average larger and carry more missiles for the.

The Japs have 4 dedicated ASW Platforms, the Brits have none. They are about to get CVs, whereas the Japs have none. However, any engagement will likely be within range of aircover from Japan, because that's how their military is set up.

Submarine wise, the Brits have a total of 7 attack boats to Japan's 17. The Brit boats are better, but Japan's are no slouches either. The Brits do have 4 missile boats to the Jap's zero. However, unless Britain would like to nuke Japan, that does not overly matter.

In terms of amphibs, Japan has 3 to Britain's 3. Britain's are qualitatively better. Japan's DDHs can perform the task if needed, although not as well as dedicated platforms.

>muh nukes
Fuck off with that argument. Not important in the modern world, unless you'd think that Britain nuking Japanese forces would end well for the Brits.

With all that in mind, who has the more powerful navy? No, Japan cannot project power away from the home islands, but it doesn't want or need to.

>>29514826
You don't know shit. You say LOGISTICS ARE PARAMOUNT without stopping to consider that Japan's logistics wouldn't get stretched because Japan isn't going out all that distance. It's staying around Japan, where it has all the logistics it needs. You need to do some studying of logistics yourself.

>>29514943
You don't understand shit. Japan's not getting into any wars that aren't around Japan, so those metrics DO NOT MATTER. How fucking hard is that for you to understand?

>>29515006

>Thinking comparing mindless numbers with no actual detail is how to judge navies
>Thinking nukes don't matter
>Thinking power projection doesn't matter
>Thinking conventional sub = nuclear sub
>Thinking Britain has only 3 amphibious ships (Clue - It's actually 6-7)
>Completely ignoring any and all logistical concerns
>Completely ignoring long range strike ability
>Completely ignoring marine capabilities

You just went full retard, anon. I suppose you think an Izumo matches a Nimitz too because they both look flat.

>B-but B-Britain couldn't fight Japan in Japan!

Well lets see Japan try to fight Britain in Britain then. Even worse result, they can't even fucking get there in force. Pointless comparison to make to make. You're making japan and the Uk "fight", meanwhile people are actually discussing capabilities in actual reality to large scale tasks.

>>29515027
>>29515038

>Screaming about how it DOESN'T MATTER WAAAAHHH because someone punctured the arguement so hard that you're on the defensive ever sense

It's okay, weebs. Really, it's okay. You're the master of your local bathtub. And thats fine.

Just don't try to talk shit around the big boys who can actually make things happen worldwide.

What I find most hilarious here? The Japs are constantly rabbiting about how JAPAN ONLY HAS TO DO ITS NEEDED THING and yet constantly try to apply Japan's requirements to France and the UK to try and say they're shit without realizing the importance of what those two do at a higher level.

Some space age hypocrisy going on from the Japs here.

it is small and ill equipped.

France, Switzerland, Denmark, and Poland could gang bang Germany in a week.

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>>29514004
Maybe if you were older than 15 you'd realize that when other people take care of you, you lose the ability to call the shots. Now keep drinking that Mountain Dew and eat your Taco Bell.

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Meh it's a joke nowadays, but I like some of our cool stuff. I can't wait to see the first leo3 concept

>>29515072

>Just don't try to talk shit around the big boys who can actually make things happen worldwide.

>"Sir Cameron I must say that we, the US command, find your bombardments over Syria's effectiveness to be quite impressive given that your budget are so low and you planes so few and outdated. Tell us what is your secret ?"
>"Well..."

I don't know why I have images of tornados falling apart in the sky raining shrapnels of rusty sharp metal onto djihadists flashing in my mind whenever I read such statements.

>>29514740
Infrastructure is a wide fucking subject, no shit. But you can't argue social systems are not part of it because you think it's too complicated, that's not how science works.

>>29515143

>the first leo3 concept

The one made with france that will cuck yourself to oblivion by taking control of the project ? Expect decapitation certified turrets, aluminum tracks and optics drowned in water every time it rains.

>>29515112
French cowards getting mawled by a mg3 ... What a sight to behold !

>>29515163

>But you can't argue social systems are not part of it because you think it's too complicated, that's not how science works.

At one point I expected you to add unironically that the year was 2016 too. I'm disappointed.

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>>29515173
Sounds cool

>>29514515
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrastructure

Oh hey look at that. Gosh, it even says 'infrastructure' and everything.

>>29513834
>Germany losing to France


My sides are with Sergei Mosin now

>>29513662
they just made a """""helicopter carrier""""
, they are way better off then Germany

>>29515072
>Thinking comparing mindless numbers with no actual detail is how to judge navies
I don't. I assumed you knew enough about the ships in question to figure this out for yourself.

Do you want me to go in and detail literally every little ship? Too bad, broad strokes for you. Atagos and Kongos are better than the Type 45s. Bigger, more VLS cells, etc. There's a matching number of them. That leaves the rest of Japan's destroyers to match the 11 Type 23 Frigates. The newest 11 are more than a match. That leaves 20 surface combatants unmatched by Britain. The Brits are at a quantitative and qualitative disadvantage all the way through surface ships. Based on that, which has the more powerful force?

>nukes
Using nukes on Japan would be more devastating than being hit by them. This isn't an exchange between two nuclear powers. Use your head to figure out the consequences.
>power projection
Japan has all it needs. I'm sorry you're too retarded to realize this. You can meme about it all you want, but power projection is merely the ability to achieve your national goals and protect your interests.
>Thinking conventional sub = nuclear sub
I said right there that Britain had the advantage qualitatively. But no, I've forgotten you can't read!
>amphibs
Excuse me, I forgot about the three ships in the RFA.
>ignoring logistical concerns
I'm not. I'm flat out telling you Japan isn't going anywhere far away from Japan, and its existing fleet is sufficient for that.
>long range strike ability
Like what? Britain has nothing Japan doesn't at the moment other than SSBNs, which aren't exactly going to be relevant.
>marine capabilities
Japan's marine capabilities are mostly defensive in nature.

>Well lets see Japan try to fight Britain in Britain then.
Why would it want to? That's the problem you have yet to face. Japan has no goals outside of its immediate surroundings.

>Thinking the JMSDF is better than the RN makes me a weeb
I don't even like anime.

>>29515320
For fuck's sake, DDHs are not carriers. They're ASW platforms. The best weapon for ASW is a helicopter. Do the math. Japan has been using DDHs for over 4 decades. Only now are they flat tops, as modern DDs carry the same amount of helicopters as the old DDHs and a rising china means they need more helicopters.

>>29513289
>Poland now has more Leopard 2s than Germany does
Why do you lie on the Internet?
http://www.un-register.org/NationalHoldings/CountryDetail.aspx?Register_Id=4412

>>29515416
Take a look at the numbers in service. Only 320 planned.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/land/vehicles/2015/04/18/germany-to-buy-back-tanks-amid-russia-threat/25879281/

Tanks in mothball are useless.

>>29514111
>They just don't seem to have the backing or support.
this
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/weekinreview/15kulish.html

>>29515523

Don't expect support "à l'américaine" to any soldier ever in europe. While germans are so fucking cuckified it hurts it is barely better in other countries. Here in belgium people don't hate the military they simply don't care.

basically at the moment
ground forces are working at their minimum, with tanks and artillery at their best probably
air and navy are a joke, because budget cuts fucked up everything

special forces are probably the only thing working remotly at a high NATO level

>>29515455
>Tanks in mothball are useless.
Right, the concept of military reserves is just for idiots which is why Americans do it, too?

But even so, Poland doesn't have 320 leopard 2s

>>29515631
True, pretty much all of Europe has long entered the post-heroic age.

>>29514402
Worked as a range officer, she's wearing pretty much everything we wear minus the beret.
>ear pro
>walkie
>sometimes a reflective vest or work shirt (in place of those arm bands)

>>29515741
>Right, the concept of military reserves is just for idiots which is why Americans do it, too?
Mothbolled vehicles don't count towards numbers in service, that's for damn sure. They need to be massively worked up before they can get thrown back in service. It's better to have them around then not, but they don't count for active service numbers- IE the people you have right now who can fight. Hell, not even reserve numbers, who can be brought into the fight fairly quickly. The US is also gifted with where its boneyards are, out in the dry desert, on an impregnable island nation.

>>29515741
>But even so, Poland doesn't have 320 leopard 2s
Because I forgot to address this, a quote from wikipedia
>The Polish Land Forces operate 128 Leopard 2A4s and had an additional 14 Leopard 2A4s and 105 Leopard 2A5s on order in March 2013. The Polish Leopard 2 tanks serve with the 10th Armoured Cavalry Brigade based in Świętoszów. By November 2013, the Polish Defense Ministry had acquired 119 ex-German tanks (105 Leopard 2A5s and 14 2A4s).

>>29516172
Now compare with the original claim: "Poland now has more Leopard 2s than Germany does"
Keep moving the goal posts.

>>29516213
>proving my point
thanks

>>29515269

Don't be willfully dense. It's right there on the fuckin' page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrastructure#.22Hard.22_and_.22soft.22_infrastructure

>>29516236
That's more than the 200 odd Leopard 2s Germany is using today