So apparently this is how T-90 looks after being hit by TOW 2A.

Javelins hits from the top. I don't think many tanks are prepared for impacts coming from the top. Top armor is usually thinner to save weight. That said, new counter-measures are coming.

>>29422877
so apparently op is a vatnik and posted a pic of a normal in service t-90 that wasn't hit by anything except russian 'maintenance'

>>29422877
so why we need two of this thread OP? check the catalog you fuckin faggot

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>>29422877
This is indeed the T90 No. 21-4 as seen in the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1Zp37Kdr5Y

Obviously, something is fishy, because otherwise they would not use this camera angle.
(cont)

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>>29423102
Out of all the possible locations the Russians could take the picture of the aftermath in support of their claims, they take it so that the tank barrel exactly hides the hit spot.

>"No penetration, we swear guise"

Clearly shows the cheap missile won over the expensive russian tank. I do not understand the need to lessen American victory.

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>>29423107
Pic relates is T90 turret armor thickness.
TOW can go through about 900mm RHA, so a hit there is an obvious penetration (Syrian TOWs have tandem warheads so muh ERA isn't an issue)

>muh deflection?

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>>29423113
>muh deflection

Pic is of missile hits at extreme angles to the turret ceiling. No deflection occured and the thin top armor is pierced reliably.

>>29423118
pretty sure those are kinetic penetrator pics but whatever

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NTSA.

>>29423113
Considering the commander jumped out after the hit, it certainly did not penetrate completely. The front of the T-90 turret has something around 900mm RHA protection after ERA.

>>29422877
>the impact point is completely obscured
>"looks like nothing happened to it at all! haha"

>>29423230
>Considering the commander jumped out after the hit

I find it really funny when people like you, who don't even know something as simple as how the crew is arrayed, thinks they can weigh in on matters like this. I'm going to give you a two step solution to this problem:

1) Shut the fuck up

2) Get the fuck out

>>29422877
>Would the outcome be the same after Javelin impact?
Who knows? The missile in the video is a standard TOW, not a top-down attack missile like 71F TOW or the Javelin set to top-down.

Will that make a difference? Maybe. But like many things, we'll never know unless we actually try it out.

>>29423244
Yeah, I mistook the gunner's hatch for the commander's hatch, how does that invalidate my argument, Sperguson?

>>29423296
The T-90 doesn't have the protection to stop a Javelin or top-attack TOW. It'd be destroyed if they'd used them. Hell, it's not even known if it was a TOW 2 in the video.

>>29422877
Any top-attacking anti-tank weapon basically slices straight through any tank that's on the market, without any difficulties whatsoever. Pressure, spalling, heat etc does the rest. ATGMs with tandem warheads like the Bill 2 completely negates reactive armor as well, and there really isnt any countermeasures available.

That picture is useless. The tank might be a complete loss for all we know, we need clear pictures of the interior to make any assumption.

For the record even if the tank did not survive, it's not a HUGE deal as no modern MBT could survive a direct ATGM hit without vast amounts of luck.

>>29423472
>For the record even if the tank did not survive, it's not a HUGE deal as no modern MBT could survive a direct ATGM hit without vast amounts of luck.
TOW-1 vs Abrams. Frontal hit. :^)

>>29423063
Nice source you got there.

>>29423244
The guy still got out. If it penetrated he wouldn't be in one living moving piece.

>>29423311
There's no way to know, but then again, there have been many videos of TOW-2's in action in Syria.

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>>29423415
shit picture, but you get the drift. The tank is a T-72.

>>29423570
Most T-72s have ERA on the top, T-72B also has reinforced top armour.
Your picture is of a dubious nature where we don't know the model of the T-72 and we don't know how it was loaded either.

>>29423599
Considering it's getting ATGM'd, it's almost certainly an early model.

>>29423311
According to serial numbers that have been shown off for years now, the most common TOWs in theater are all old stock from either Saudi Arabia, Jordan or Turkey with a smattering from Egypt. In terms of models of ATGMs shown off, by popularity, it goes Spigot and ITOW (by a mile), TOW-A, Konkurs, a handful of Metis and a few TOW-2A's.

From the look of the videos, the guys with the confirmed TOW-2s are the ones with direct ties to CIA SAD as they actually know what they're doing and have nice HD cameras and professional setups. Not to mention they actually realize how to extend the ERA probe on their missiles.

>>29423538
A penetration isn't an insta gib.

Anyone got that webm of the T-55 eating a TOW and the crew bailing while flames are coming out of the hatches.

>>29423599
They are previously NVA tanks, so yes, they are old. The picture is meant to visualise the effect of a top-attacking ATGM, not to gauge any sort of real effectiveness. The hollow charge jet goes through more than 500mm of solid RHA, and is a tandem warhead (meaning, ERA is basically useless). The tank was not loaded.

>>29423671
how do you know

>>29423599
>Most T-72s have ERA on the top

TOW-2B's don't use a HEAT jet and ERA is just as reliant upon sloping as passive armor.

>we don't know how it was loaded either.

It had the typical 24 round mix of HE/HEAT and the rest AP.

>>29422877
I want Russians from 2ch and Russiaboos to leave

>>29423658
That is pretty much a clean kill. Crew is completely out of service and the tank is not going anywhere. Tank is dead, anon. Could they tow the tank out of there, wash out the remains of the previous crew, replace the interior and get it going again (a la early ww2 sherman style)? Probably possible, but it's almost completely pointless.

>>29423671
When i say more than 500mm, that means know that it goes through atleast that. No idea what the actual max is, but since no tank is even close to 500mm, it speaks for itself.

>>29423688
I know a lot of things. What do you mean specifically?

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>>29423690
>It had the typical 24 round mix of HE/HEAT and the rest AP.

How do you know?

>TOW-2B's don't use a HEAT jet and ERA is just as reliant upon sloping as passive armor.

By HEAT jet I assume you mean Shaped Charge, or Copper Jet.

Well if it doesn't use those what does it use, and what are those shaped charge shaped things on the front of it called shaped charge warheads?

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>>29423709
your safe space getting invaded?

>>29423716
I mean back up your claims.

>>29423734
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqb6fzjBItU

>>29423729
Wooooooooowwww

so you are saying that if you have the speed regardless of the weight, you can still make jumps and even shoot a tank while it is overtaking gravity? overwhelming eastern bloc science, whew

>safe space
yeah by slavniggers

>>29423728
>called shaped charge warheads
>Forward warhead
>Aft warhead
They're explosively formed tantalum penetrators, EFPs.

>>29423747
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t459NbF5Vek

>>29423538
>If it penetrated he wouldn't be in one living moving piece.

This is false, as sourced by many videos of burning crews exiting their tanks on fire.

No, being as how the guy who bailed was holding his face together, i would say the tank got hit, and penned

>>29423749
dat proud mongol heritage doe

>>29423751
Explosively formed penetrators are still shaped charges.

And they don't function with magic and are still slowed down by obstacles.

>>29423728
>How do you know?

Go find the clip of the full video. They say 'standard loadout', which is HE/HEAT heavy due to doctrine. Eitherway, what matters more is the propellant, not the explosives, those are almost always secondaries as they're slower to cook off.

>Well if it doesn't use those what does it use, and what are those shaped charge shaped things on the front of it called shaped charge warheads?

They form EFPs instead of the standard jet as it's designed to fly over the target whereas a typical HEAT round is calculated for maximum effectiveness with how far from the target it is (which is known due to them actually striking the target to set off the charge).

>>29423709
I want more pics and >evidence as well as an actual battle damage assessment.

An 'after' image of the tank is great and all but this one doesn't say anything more than that the missile impacted where the video already shows it does, with damage to the external Shtora.

>>29423767
Much like argon and oxygen are still gasses.

HEAT and EFPs are two completely different things

I honestly dont care if the tanks survived the TOW or ATGM hit or not.
I dont even care if the 1 and possibly only video of it being hit is fake or just edited or real.
The tank is russian, it was hit by the US backed group and that is all that matters to me. I dont care about what the truth is, or if what i will believe is the truth, it is our fucking narrative and we are in a fucking war here. 24-7 since 1945, we are in a war with the fucking subhuman filth called slavs, or slaves.
They are proven to be worthless in a war, they do not value honor or human life, they lie, they torture, rape and steal.
They are the only ones that forced communism on others and the echo of that is still present today.
They will be purged from earth, each and every slav will, mark my fucking words, they will.
Either by themselves as they are know to do, or by us, the free people who value freedom and kill the cancer of communism wherever it is.
Their weapons are shit, our weapons are the best.
Their tanks are cannon fodder, our tanks are proper tanks that save lives and kill commies and terrorists.
They dont have any valuable planes or pilots, we have the best in the world.
They want to rule the world, we already do and will continue to do so, until there is only one, true and free world order that we implemented, just like our founding fathers did.

Now i think its time we start kicking the subhumans from this board. They arent welcome, they never were and never will.
Let them die from krokodil or aids, or terror attacks. Just let them loose, dont burden yourselves with them or get in conversations with them.
If any of you faggots are real men, and not some fat autistic shit that stains this great country, you will join the Ukrainian battalions this year and start purging the filth on the front lines.

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>>29423767
Technically yes, but in military applications a shaped charge and an EFP are very much different things.

>>29423754
Yes, im sure BAE engineers are basically national geographical channel who has no idea what they're doing. The ERA that is used in the video i provided is a carbon copy of kontakt-5 and the entire thing is witnessed by hundreds of experts on defence material from an equally large pool of countries.

>>29423772
>They form EFPs instead of the standard jet

just stop posting, this level of ignorance is appalling.

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>>29423728
>>29423690
>>29423599
T-90 autoloader only hold 22 round
they often load 10 HE, and rest are APDSFS, HEAT and ATGM

>>29423772
>Explaining how EFP works

That's nice, but that still doesn't mean it ignores ERA which is what. And i never said it didn't use EFP.

>
Go find the clip of the full video. They say 'standard loadout', which is HE/HEAT heavy due to doctrine. Eitherway, what matters more is the propellant, not the explosives, those are almost always secondaries as they're slower to cook off.

I'm not going to go looking for your source, post your source if you have it.

>>29423786

They are matter in the physical world that doesn't ignore other physical objects.
If you have the exact calculation for the different ways they behave under the same circumstances i'd love to see it, it would be very educational for me i am sure.

>>29423808
are they also mounted around the turret ring, making it completely impossible to miss them?

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>>29423767
>>29423797
Here's on for HEAT. An EFP essentially fires a slug that can still penetrate form a further distance, whilst HEAT collapses the metal liner into a fine point, targeted forward. Much less effective at a distance.

>>29423804
Not sure what you are talking about, i thought we were just posting youtube videos with a mild relevance to the subject insted of providing the sources we were asked for.

>>29423807
>TOW-2B
>not an EFP

>>>/out/

>>29423812
>That's nice, but that still doesn't mean it ignores ERA which is what. And i never said it didn't use EFP.

>light ERA
>Doing anything to EFP slugs

>I'm not going to go looking for your source, post your source if you have it.

And I'm not spoonfeeding you on something that /k/ has been over hundreds of times just because you want to be a newfag.

>>29423820
Whats yours point?

>>29423817
Crew can choose how they load their tank
and can just discard all the extra ammo

>>29423829
That in military terms EFP and shaped charge aren't the same thing. Though obviously HEAT is used for the latter, more often than not.

>>29423796
Tldr

>>29423825
>I am not going to back up my claims on /k/ especially when they are dubious

Well I didn't really expect that you would to be honest.
You could have provided your source the first time but decided to waste time by repeatedly trying to explain what an EFP is.

Also your claims that aren't pertaining to EFPs that you conveniantly pretend you haven't claimed you won't provide a source for either because you're pretending to be butthurt over politely being asked to show where you get your information from.

>>29423812
>They are matter in the physical world that doesn't ignore other physical objects.

Cool story bro.

>>29423824
Alright, what part of that video would you classify as mildly relevant to what you asked for?

And apart from that; just saying "sources" (which you did) is /b/ levels of shitposting.
Specify.

>>29423836
Yeah no one ever doubted that, so what's your point? Should I explain to you what an APFSDS is? Are we just explaining different projectiles now?

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>>29423851
>Well I didn't really expect that you would to be honest.

This is just getting boring. Tell me why you think that any T-72 loaded with even a full loadout of APFSDS wouldn't jack in the box when it's the propellant that causes the explosion and not the rounds and we'll continue this conversation. Otherwise I don't care enough to speak to someone so intellectually dishonest as to actually pull out the 'no, I don't want to look at the first google result, that's too much for me, you do it! I'm not a newfag, you just don't have proofs!'

>>29423851
>decided to waste time by repeatedly trying to explain what an EFP is.

He is not wasting time when you clearly do not know the difference between efp and heat

>>29423851
>doesn't know the difference between EFP and HEAT

There's nowhere for this conversation to go.

>>29423857
I got it into my head that we were talking about the TOW-2B, so when i saw the video being about the Bill i didn't actually watch it, as i thought you were trying to be snide and explain how top attack weapons worked.

The video, which i know watched, doesn't actually say what T-72 it was tbf, and it is basically a commercial so I would usually take it with a grain of salt.

>>29423729
i bet the crew loved that
>muffled blyat

>>29423858
I thought someone claimed otherwise, but I'm too tired and drunk to check.

>Should I explain to you what an APFSDS is?
Sure, gimme nice gifs.

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>>29423118

Those look like kinetic rod impacts and HE jet looks very different.

And if it hit there, there are ERA bricks protecting the upper surface. Which we did in fact see detonate in the video.

So they're probably trying to conceal the fucked up optics.

If there was a penetration, the gunner would have been vaporized, but we saw him egress from the tank.

>>29423873
I don't want to google everything you say, if you have something to show me, then show me.

I can easily tell you why I don't think a T-72 fully loaded with APFSDS would jack in the box.
Many destroyed T-72s don't, and those that don't probably still had HE and HEAT warheads yet didn't explode. So perhaps the most common reason for Jack in the Box is Arabs and other idiots putting extra Ammo in the Tank that shouldn't be there.

What's truely interlectually dishonest is taking a stance, pretending it is fact, saying "Prove me wrong fags" and then getting butthurt when they refuse and ask you to back up your stance.

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>>29423904
No gif, but how about all the variables in kinetic penetration?

>>29423905
>If there was a penetration, the gunner would have been vaporized

This is false. There are plenty of videos of injured tankers escapeing their tanks.

He was holding his face together upon exit.

>>29423820

What's the phase of the metal slug in an EFP? Is it still a plasma?

>>29423921

That jet would have been entering the crew compartment at exactly the height of the gunner's head. There would be nothing left of him.

>>29423883
It does not specify that, no, but the only time Sweden has bought T-72s prior to 1998 it was T-72m1s from Germany.

The image was meant to give a gist of what kind of effects we're talking about (where you can see that the copper jet has gone straight through the tank and entered the ground). The video works pretty good for that idea too, as they actually use ERA during testing.

And it's an edited summary of a military demonstrations, ie. these were given to the military experts present as a flashy summary of what they've seen. If they lie, they would know. And if that happens, their reputation is ruined.

>>29423947
>That jet would have been entering the crew compartment at exactly the height of the gunner's head.

There is variable locations a gunners head could be, nor is it in line with the optic itself.

Being that he was clutching his face like his life depended on it, and being where the impact was, yes, he got facial injuries, which supports a pen.

>>29423905
>>29423173
these impacts are not coming from kinetic penetrators
KE penetrators they would leave a a star like imprint from the stabilization fins behind

>>29423965
>he got facial injuries, which supports a pen.

Or just spalling from the interior surfaces....

>>29423986
>EFP
>MBT
>Spalling
Choose one.

Hell, if a line T-72 in 2015 suffers from fucking spalling, thats beyond pathetic.

>>29423955
Well considering how that just about nobody uses the Bill-2 including sweden, the military experts were probably less than impressed.

It could also be that swedish made ERA isn't of fantastic quality. But either way I get you, earlier model tanks have basically no protection against top attack.

>>29423995
Russian tanks have had spall liners since the 1950s.

>>29423995
you know what spalling is right? im not him, but the tank you seem to be discussing is a t-55, not a t-72 anyway. And yes, it probably still is a problem. Whats your solution?

>>29423903
>i bet the crew loved that
The driver's seat is actually attached to the roof of his compartment (like in anti-mine vehicles) so he doesn't break his back. Gunner and Commander would have to brace themselves by holding the hatch handles and pushing against the turret though.
>>29423711
>That is pretty much a clean kill. Crew is completely out of service and the tank is not going anywhere. Tank is dead, anon. Could they tow the tank out of there, wash out the remains of the previous crew, replace the interior and get it going again (a la early ww2 sherman style)? Probably possible, but it's almost completely pointless.
Why are you talking about he Abrams vs Kornet in a T-90 thread?

>>29424001
Everyone has had spall liners since the 60s or so.

He is a moron, hence the point. Being that he is a rabid slavboo, i cant just give him facts, so if he is claims he is right in spite of them i preemptively put his viewpoint into the ground with the "if" comment.

Its how you deal with vatniks.

>>29424007
>Whats your solution?

You are seriously asking me to a solution to a problem solved in the 50s?

Get out. I would ask you to lurk but thats to hard for you. Just leave

>>29424025
American tanks still don't have spall liners btw.

>>29424038
2ch please fucking leave.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

cntrl + f, type spall, then kill yourself.

>>29424007
>And yes, it probably still is a problem.

In anti-tank warfare, spalling through mechanical stress is an intended effect of high-explosive squash head (HESH) anti-tank shells and many other munitions which may not be powerful enough to pierce the armor of a target. The relatively soft warhead, containing or made of plastic explosive, flattens against the armor plating on tanks and other armored fighting vehicles (AFVs) and explodes, creating a shock wave that travels through the armor as a compression wave and is reflected at the free surface as a tensile wave breaking (tensile stress/strain fracture) the metal on the inside. The resulting spall is dangerous to crew and equipment, and may result in a partial or complete disablement of a vehicle and/or its crew. Many AFVs are equipped with spall liners inside their armor for protection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spall#Antitank_warfare

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>>29424038
>>29423851

>>29424038
yeah, they totally don't have kevlar and shit in their tanks

jesus christ, these vatniks are a bunch of drooling retards

>>29423808
Question
Why in hell would you load APDSFS , HEAT , and ATGM when you arent fighting anything armored , just load HE and those anti personnel steel ball shells or whatever the russians are using as an equivalent

>>29424069
Yes they are.

They actually belive this shit.

2ch might as well be owned by putin himself. You can just say anything anti west or american and its instantly fact.

Its really, really sad.

>>29423965
>There is variable locations a gunners head could be, nor is it in line with the optic itself.
The turret was moving slowly as if observing the scenery- Gunner has his head abutt the sight.

>Being that he was clutching his face like his life depended on it, and being where the impact was, yes, he got facial injuries, which supports a pen.
If it actually penetrated he would be doing more than clutching his head and jumping out of the tank in pain and panic, he'd get it cleanly blown off.
HEAT jets and sub-caliber penetrators are funny in that if they penetrate something that doesn't offer much resistance like too thin of an armor compared to their penetrative capability they don't do much damage at all outside of those struck in their direct path.
But if they encounter something that say matches 80-100% of their penetrative capability, they became severely destabilized upon exiting into the inner space, violently shoving both their remaining mass and the penetration residues in a pattern much more akin to an explosion.

>>29424034
No, please, i just want to know how you think that spall liners are in any way helpful in even a marginal penetration scenario, let alone a total penetration.

>>29424076
Russian/Soviet doctrine always had tanks supplying direct fire support and as such had, in comparison to western forces, an abundance of HE rounds in a standard loadout. This combined with a reliance upon HEAT for long range AT duties meant that a normal loadout for T-72s had an abundance of explosive munitions in the vehicle compared to AP which generally was carried in single digits.

>>29424025
>He is a moron, hence the point. Being that he is a rabid slavboo, i cant just give him facts, so if he is claims he is right in spite of them i preemptively put his viewpoint into the ground with the "if" comment.
>i say something wrong to prove he is a moron when he corrects me
can you see the mental gymnastics at play here?

>>29424131
>implying i brought up anything to do with spall or spall liners, and was not responding to a postulation.

Not only can vatnicks not read, they are retarded.

>>29424077
daily reminder that fetal alcohol syndrome causes autism
ergo, every russian is an autist

i hope they all join the russian army and die like little bitches
aids will kill those who survived

>>29424171
how am i a vatnik while arguing that the t-72 a piece of shit

also, i missed the efp part, i thought we were still discussing >>29423118

>>29424111
>Gunner has his head abutt the sight.

Unless he saw the incomeing or something else and pulled away.

>simultaneously confuseing HEAT, EFPs, and APFSDS.

Hilarious.

>hits strongest part of armor that is literally made to withstand that sort of firepower
>every tank has spots like this
>russian stronk :^)

>>29424168

Nice try, almost straight out of the handbook.

(You)

>>29424076
>Why in hell would you load APDSFS , HEAT , and ATGM when you arent fighting anything armored , just load HE and those anti personnel steel ball shells or whatever the russians are using as an equivalent
Its because all those rounds cost ten times as much at least as a plane jane HE shell.
more shekels for the ammo makers an all that.

>>29424186
>Unless he saw the incomeing or something else and pulled away.
the gun was at least 20 degrees offset to the left from camera POV so bull.
>Hilarious.
reveiling in your ignorance and projecting on others is not hilarious desu.

>>29424195
>Nice try, almost straight out of the handbook.
>[x]buttmad reply
whelp.

>>29424224
>le ebin buttmad maymay

boring

>>29424259
>boring
eyup, still buttmad as fuck.

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>>29424268
>not even the same guy
>keeps going

you get paid by the post, eh?

>>29424282
>you get paid by the post, eh?
>aaand another's butt is dust.
you pay me with your butthurt.

>>29424295
stop projection my bleached nigger friend :^)
everyone knows that only russians are able to freak out because of nothing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYB4v8uThXc

>>29424216
>optics have 20 degree FOV

Lel, i heard russian optics were bad but holy shit

>>29423728
Educate yourself on the difference between an EFP and a HEAT warhead.

>>29422892

other than era, which is on the top

>>29424323
>Lel, i heard russian optics were bad but holy shit
>tunnel vision isn't a thing
kek, i heard muriclaps are getting dumber but holy shit

>>29423524
the burden of proof lies with the OP

>>29423873

You can find many videos where huge flames shoot out of the hatches, and some where there's just a massive explosion.

This makes sense too, as propellant does not explode, it deflagrates

While taking a break from the thread i also decided to try and become more familiar with the physics of EFPs. It seems to me that EFPs are considerably weaker in penetration than conventional shaped charges. So the arguement that ERA wouldn't protect against a TOW-2B when it protects against APFSDS and copper jets is a bit silly isn't it?

>>29424384
>mad vatnik is mad

cute

>>29424315
>stop projection my bleached nigger friend :^)
hmm, muricans to their credit at least don't typically make a mistake with their grammar like you just did.
lemme guess, a buttmad arselicker from south of the border?

>>29424432
how about this: i simply don't care? ;)

>>29423063
/thread

>>29424402

EFP's are shaped charges you tard.

this is like thinking that catholics and christians are two different things.

>>29424402
>EFPs are considerably weaker in penetration than conventional shaped charges

An EFP is what a shaped charge produces. They are not two separate things. One is an effect caused by the other.

>>29423796
Shut up faggot and go get your self killed in Ukraine

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>detonate warhead six inches from target
>"that's a shaped charge"

>detonate warhead one foot from target
>"that's a completely different weapon in no way related to shaped charges"

there are actually people on this thread who think that this is how it works.

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>>29423796
This is probably one of the most autistic posts I have seen in a long time.

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>>29424532
>>29424506

>>29423510
>TOW-1
>Relevant
Pick one.

>>29423937

>plasma

Please learn science.

>>29424555
>>29424506
>>29424532
Actually, i thought this too and found out thats wrong.

There is actually large differences between the two, they have common elements but are applied differently. Idk if this is the right thread for such things though, its pretty much a shitposting thread, and started out as such.

>>29423102
No secondary explosions at least.

>>29423796
Is this some pasta or what?

>>29423107

im not that sure...

Of course you will see an hole at the point the missle hit the tank, which will be a "proof" for everyone out there who has no idea about antitank weapons and tank armor (so most people) as an clear sign of an penetration...

The thing is not if the jet penetrated armor, its about if it completely penetrated or least so far into the armor that inside of the tank there where bouncing of flying (metal-)pieces from the pressure to be harmful to the crew...

so why show a picture with a clearly visible hole at the turrent ?

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>>29424555

holy fuck, this triggers my autism KEK

The thing is, they look very similar, indeed...BUT they have extreme differences

The funny thing is, that i really believe you that you think that you know what you are talking about. BUT THATS WRONG, DIPSHIT

Read some shit about thouse two, im too tired and lazy for this, just sayin: An EFP is theoreticaly closer to an (XXL-, of course) rifle bullet than to a shaped charge

>>29425829
I was the guy before, and this.

I disagree with his example, an EFP is like a poor mans APFSDS.

A HEAT round uses a jet of liquid copper (mostly) to cut though, almost like a torch.

Now you know.

>>29425960
Its not a liquid jet.

>>29424384

So your excuse is incompetence rather than shitty equipment?

Does anyone currently field the TOW-2B?

I want to see on in action, poppin' tops

>>29426426
unfortunately they can kill western tanks pretty easy too, and considering quick kill is aps never. advanced tows are unlikely to get in the hands of haji's

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>>29426090

>not a liquid jet

>>29426426

Thank god no.

They have been using dual warhead TOW's (for the ERA and shit) but they were busy using them on trucks, static positions, and troops instead of proper armor.

Hopefully (and i haven't seen them in a while) they used them all and no resupply is coming.

>>29426818
You are now aware the US Army wants a bolt on Trophy or Quick Kill to test by the end of the year, and full fielding within 2 years.

>>29423937
no, and neither is a HEAT round. The detonation of the explosives behind the metallic lining will never be able to strip electrons from the copper (or whatever else) atoms. Upon detonation, the copper forms a jet of super-heated gas, which becomes molten and then solid as it travels. Once the copper ceases to be gaseous, it's penetration potential is generally negligible (in terms of facing heavy armor) and thus we have spaced armor.

With an EFP, the copper (or whatever) lining never leaves the solid state, and is deformed by the force of the explosion into a solid projectile. Because you're not using enough explosives to form a jet of metal, the velocity of the projectile is less than that of a HEAT round, and thus initial penetration is generally lower. However, because the projectile's penetration potential is not reliant on it's thermal energy, it retains this potential over greater distances

>>29427509
A correction:

Upon reading about the Munroe effect in more detail, I should correct some of the shit I spewed just there:

1) HEAT rounds are in no way reliant on thermal energy to penetrate a target. Rather, the dissipating penetration potential over range of the metallic jet results from the fragmentation and deformation of the stream in air or maybe water and stuff.

2) The metal liner of a shaped charge never reaches a gaseous state, but rather is superplastic. This state is unique to crystalline solids such as metals, and as far as I can tell does not fall cleanly in any of the four basic states of matter. It is a highly stressed crystal structure that, atomically, is not a liquid.

The EFP stuff is pretty much on point though, aside form the relation of HEAT to thermal energy in penetration potential. The point still stands that EFPs generally have lower initial penetration potential by nature of how they are constructed.

>>29427509
>the copper forms a jet of super-heated gas

Why is it so hard for people to give accurate descriptions.

>>29424402
EFP's don't lose as much penetration to spaced armor compared to HEAT.

They can also be made thinner compared to HEAT and still have an effect.

>>29426397
>So your excuse is incompetence rather than shitty equipment?
humans don't have compound eyes.
>>29427380
>You are now aware the US Army wants a bolt on Trophy or Quick Kill to test by the end of the year, and full fielding within 2 years.
current form of Trophy a shit, doesn't have provisions for top attack munitions.
>>29424451
>how about this: i simply don't care? ;)
go build the Wall, Paco.

>>29423107
>Out of all the possible locations the Russians could take the picture of the aftermath in support of their claims, they take it so that the tank barrel exactly hides the hit spot.
OPSEC thing. You don't tell your enemies how effective(or ineffective for that matter) his attack was at least while you are still using that particular equipment.

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>>29429903
>current form of Trophy a shit, doesn't have provisions for top attack munitions.

By top attack you mean munitions that come down at very steep angles.

>>29423760

In another thread of this nature someone mentioned that the dude getting out had his eardrums blown out because the hatch was open. This is a painful occurrence and I'd be holding my head too.

>>29422877
>durr I am dumb and don't know what an EFP is

>>29424370
Which the javelin has tandem charges to defeat.

>>29430718
Neither Javelin or TOW (except the top attack 2B) use EFP warheads.

>>29423524
Please not the proof meme again

>>29427509
>>29427581
Please fucking read up on superplasticity, this meme needs to end.

This has been a long thread, but I still do not find the T-90 impressive, I do not believe it has half the defensive capabilities of the ZTZ-99 Super Abrams.

>>29424392
It goes like this.

1.) Propellant lights up with hatches open = collumns of flames (vents pressure).

2.) Propellant lights up with hatches closed = off goes the turret (can't vent pressure).

3.) Propellant lights up + ammo explosion = off goes everypart to everywhere.

4.) Any fire in the tank = one of the things above, even if the crew safely evacuates (this is the reason why there's so much completely destroyed tanks in Ukraine, they abandon tanks as soon as they catch on fire).

>>29434325
And the reason they abandon tanks, is because the monkeys operating them don't use the fire suppression system, either because they have no idea it exists, have no idea how to use it or don't bother with it's maintenance. AT ALL.