USS Reliant is the ultimate space weapon

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what ship is this?

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Not a mighty Federation battleship?

>>29326309
Literally in the title and file name.

Looks wise I don't think anything can beat the Ambassador class, the refit/A of Enterprise is darn close.

All of the star trek ships are shit.
>at war with klingons and a whole bunch of others.
>continue to build starships rather than fighting ships.
This is why I don't take star trek seriously like some do, it's a fun show for a bit, but we're humans. If we had FTL ships we'd sure as shit have them armed to the teeth. Not to mention that if another species was better armed then us then we'd immediately try to switch that around. Unless another species has superiority and uses it against us quickly, we'll wreck them in a full scale war. War is about the only things humans will do on a grand scale.

>>29326512

Clearly you've never heard of the Defiant and Dreadnought classes, both of whom are designed solely for combat.

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Thats not the Exelion

>>29326637
clearly you didnt really read his comment as he wasnt complaining about a total lack of combat ships so much as starfleets continued production of exploration and science vessels instead of warships while in a fourway cold war with almost the entirety of the universe

>>29326637
and were shit at it, nothing better than converted starships

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>Not posting the most "fuck you, pay me" ship design the federation ever built
>dem quantum torpedos
>dem pulse phasers
>dat ablative armor
>no holodeck
>no science lab
>no families allowed
>Captained by Best Captain and Bro Worf

>>29326774
>no holodeck

Even the Defiant should have one of these, best way to train your crew and exercising them, imagine training your boarding teams using it instead of shitty blanks like we use now.

>>29326512
Er, thing is, Star Fleet isn't meant to be a combat force. What you see is Star Fleet, not the Federation's military. Regardless,

>at war with klingons and a whole bunch of others.
>Klingons for a year
>Borg had skirmishes and a single, brief invasion
>Cardasians, not for a long time
>Romulans, not for a long time
>Dominion is when they started introducing more combat role ships into Star Fleet, and that war lasted two years

>If we had FTL ships we'd sure as shit have them armed to the teeth.
Star Fleet ships ARE armed to the teeth, since they explore uncharted areas they have to.

>Not to mention that if another species was better armed then us then we'd immediately try to switch that around.
The Federation is better armed, and even Star Fleet, being a non-military entity, is just as powerful as the majority of its enemies.

>Unless another species has superiority and uses it against us quickly, we'll wreck them in a full scale war.
The Borg tried that, they failed, and they had a HUGE tech superiority. The Dominion also did that, and they had a HUGE number superiority, and again, they failed.

>>29326282
Borg, Whale Probe, USS Prometheus, Krenim Time Ship, the enhanced Voyager

>>29326840
Not very much bang for the buck, your crew should be ready to go at launch anyway, it's not meant to be a long range exploration ship.

>>29326871

Star Fleet IS A MILITARY FORCE.

You've been reading too much Federation propaganda.

They even use human shields by bringing families on their ships, so they can demonize anyone that defends themselves.

>>29326840
Nah, place holoemitters throughout the ship.

>>29326774
>Symmetrical across thrust axis
>Bridge in center of ship
the only ship star trek got remotely right

>>29326710
Star Fleet isn't a military force. Read >>29326871

And It's the galaxy not the universe, and again, only the Dominion and the Borg are reasonable threats. But the Dominion tried and lost partially because they're retarded and managed to drag the Klingons and Romulans (along with everyone else) into the war against them. And the Borg try periodically and fail.

>>29327044
I know this is a joke post, but I'll bite. Star Fleet ships with families can detach the section containing non-combatants as needed, and whenever they know they;re going into combat they leave behind the families. And typically, the ones doing the defending is Star Fleet.

Also
>Star Fleet IS A MILITARY FORCE.
Why do they then have an entire separate military force? What role does Star Fleet fill in the military? They don;t even act as a military.

And, just to

>>29326386
>>29326710
I just remembered that in alternate timelines where the Federation is actually in a major war, what would be Star Fleet ships become outright warships designed for war. (And these don't have families.)

>>29327086
>Nah, place holoemitters throughout the ship.
Emergency security staff FTW.

That's right, you're looking at the ship that makes TNG ship show combat look weak and unimaginative.

It can fire at FTL speeds across time and space through yours and enemy warp bubbles. It can combine the quadrants best sensors with energy weapons that at minimum, can glass a planets surface.

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>>29327253

>>29327207

>Robert Picardo errywhere
>Please state the nature of the security emergency
>HOLOSLAP cuz holograms can't really be hurt by phasers and stuff, but can physically assault things thanks to shaped forcefields lol
>All done. Now will somebody please turn me off?

FUND IT

>>29326774

Reliant has so much more style. Imagine it upgraded to combat only mode.

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>>29326282
Get lost Grandpa, you are SO obsolete.

>>29326774
What was the point of having a "head" on the ship if the bridge wasn't there?

>>29326774
>Everything is within walking distance
>They still take an ass-long lift ride to engineering.

>>29327174
>Also
>>Star Fleet IS A MILITARY FORCE.
>Why do they then have an entire separate military force? What role does Star Fleet fill in the military? They don;t even act as a military.
>And, just to
Afaki Gene Roddenberry never wanted them to be a military force. They were a peaceful scientific exploration group that just happens to have well armed ships. But you probably know this already.

>>29327696
Looks like someone doesn't know, you can field 5 Mirandas for every Nebula. Double that if you don't load them down with useless crap, like sensors and torpedoes. Just give them extra phasers and let the crew aim manually from close range.

I gotta fire up Star Fleet command 3 now thanks...

>>29327883
Go do yourself a favor and grab the Star Trek Armada 3 mod for Sins of a Solar Empire.

>>29326343

is this canon? I kind of want it to be

>>29326512

>what is the Prometheus class for 500 Alex?

>>29327896
I forgot about Armada, that's a great one too, I have some full overhaul for SFC3.

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>>29327914

No idea.

I think it's in books and comics, it's definitely in video games.

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HURRRR DURRRR

>mfw they introduced this in the first episode, and then promptly never fucking used it again

>>29327926
Prometheus is pure sex.

>>29328042

it got used maybe 4 or 5 times

>>29328073
only twice

they mention separation as an option a few times but never end up doing it

>>29328042
Cost was too high so they stopped doing it.
It was going to be common, and it was done when the D finally ate it in a movie forget what one though.

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>>29328042

They use it in two other episodes Arsenal of Freedom (Season 1 episode 21) and more notably when they fight the Borg in Best of Both Worlds Part II (Season 4 episode 1).

And then they use it in Star Trek: Generations the first TNG movie to evacuate the crew after the warp core blows.

In any case it was a silly idea and the fact that the ship looked so silly without the saucer section definitely made it worse.

>>29326343

Yo dawg, we heard you liked Excelsior-class starships, so we added another Excelsior so you can Excelsior while you Excelsior!

X-Biz'kit, starring in Pimp My Flagship.

>>29328126

Considering if the warp core goes and thus the ship, it's not a bad idea to be able to split part of the ship away.

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say what you will about the whole new movie alternate universe thing, but this thing was fucking badass. robocop and sherlock knew how to design a boat.

shame the whole bloody thing could be taken down by one squirrely scotsman.

>>29328200

I'd love to see a Miranda-style starship done in the Vengeance look & combat philosophy.

>>29328200

we do not speak of the remakes, also compared to other ships it was fucking gay

It's not the ship but the Captain... I'm laughing at the superior intelligence...

>>29328126
>>29328197

I mean yeah, separating the ship into two sections has definite tactical advantages.

When I said its a silly idea, I meant its a silly idea for the TV show to introduce it because it leads you to ask the question of why they aren't using it constantly. I mean seriously every time they have a showdown with the Romulans or do anything dangerous shouldn't they separate the saucer section and leave all the children and unessential personnel behind?

That's why its a silly idea, just like having kids on the ship in the first place; but then that was one of Rodenberry's ideas.

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>>29328269

Even so, the Reliant gave as good as it got. Knocked out main power twice, had a "knew exactly where to hit" first attack, knocked out a torpedo launcher, and barely missed hitting a warp nacelle at a critical moment.

That thing could inflict serious pain.

>>29328126
>And then they use it in Star Trek: Generations the first TNG movie to evacuate the crew after the warp core blows.
In Voyager they introduce a core that can be ejected in that scenario, and in Insurrection the Sovereign class is shown to have that feature as well.

I think up to that point warp cores were just too heavily in-built to the ships.

>>29326840

They can do that at DS9. Defiant is a short journey ship. It goes out does it's mission and returns to DS9.

>>29328197

Or, you know, they could just EJECT THE WARP CORE like they do every time there's a black hole or spacial anomaly.

But sure, sacrificing half an entire ship isn't a bad idea either.

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>>29328231

What about a Miranda Bird of Prey?

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>>29328331
Your post indicates 2 dimensional thinking ... Z minus 3000 meters...

>>29328376

Khan was intelligent, but not experienced.

A proper Starship Captain would have known how to fight the Enterprise in 3 dimensions.

TFW there will never a war game between a Miranda-Class and Constitution-Class. Closest thing we got was that Stargazer/Galaxy one.

>>29328343

They actually talk about ejecting the core at least once on TNG (the episode where Olivia D' Abo is a sexy teenage Q); but they obviously didn't do it in the movie.

Geordi talks about a coolant leak before the ship blows so that's you canon explanation for it; but in reality then needed a new set (and thus a new ship) because the TV set wasn't detailed enough to work for movies.

>>29326512

This. Gene's push toward Socialist Utopia kind of messed with the design of a lot:

>Borg's come towards Earth, nearly wreck it
>No formal investigations, no call to arms
>Crew goes on like its no big thing

Thats literally like if the Soviet Union had four troop transports, a nuclear sub, a destroyer, and their carrier streaming for washington DC and they were stopped by a single US boat due to a miracle.

Heads would fucking ROLL on capital hill if we narrowly averted a soviet invasion and NOTHING came of it.

But of course it isn't a utopian drama to have a scared terrified populace calling for a massive increase in defense production, and it would threaten his ideas of a peaceful show that showcased socialism and future tech.


In a world where enemy stealth is a thing, cyborgs try to invade your homeworld, and rogue super beings literally show up just to dick around you don't go peaceful turtle, you arm up and ensure its dangerous for anyone to mess with you.

>>29328331
>Even so, the Reliant gave as good as it got.
Only because the "blue on blue" ambush attack caused so much damage to the Enterprise, the crew was a bunch of students...

Khan of the real ST movies was such a great villain because he was not just a superman, but one with critical flaws that consistently bring about his failure because it's not his own time period.

>>29328042

That has quite the story to it. They planned to use it often, but the battle bridge set was frequently stolen for scenes in Star Trek 5. So it was only used once more in season 1.

Then in the following seasons they started using a brand new smaller and more detailed Enterprise D model for new shots (the original model was huge and very hard for the crew to film shots with and they lived in constant fear of breaking it as it was very fragile) This model didn't seperate, so they again opted not to bother using this feature.

In best of both worlds they really wanted to use that feature so they brought out the old bigger model. But it was such a pain to use the effects crew swore they never wanted to use the bigger model again.

Finally it was used once more in Generations, where they had no choice but to use the bigger model because it was the only one big enough to not look like total shit on a movie screen. And then they destroyed the ship so they could make a new flashier more movie like Enterprise for the rest of the TNG films. They also switched to CGI entirely after Generations.

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>>29328406
A proper starship captain would never have followed Kirk into the Mutara Nebula when he HAD GENESIS! FULL POWER!

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>>29328431

>But of course it isn't a utopian drama to have a scared terrified populace calling for a massive increase in defense production, and it would threaten his ideas of a peaceful show that showcased socialism and future tech.

While I agree with you about Rodenberry being a filthy pacifistic commie, if you watch TNG and DS9 following the borg attack there are a lot of clues as to the fact that the Federation are building up their military. The Defiant itself is built specifically to fight the Borg, the Weapons on the Enterprise and every ship in the fleet get upgraded and in one episode an Admiral orders Picard to look for a peaceful solution with the Cardassians because "we haven't finished rebuilding the fleet since the Borg incident".

So it definitely has an effect, although a more muted one than would realistically occur.

>>29326774
I remember some plot point about its structural integrity being so high, they drifted between the hulls of a romulan warbird and did starship donuts and tore the shit out of the warbird.

>>29328406
In all seriousness a Miranda Class could not possibly match up to a Constitution Class enhanced Federation Cruiser. At best Miranda Class is an Armored Cruiser (more likely Light Cruisers) against a Heavy Cruiser - that's why Khan had to use a subterfuge to get her in close and target Enterprise from point blank range with shields down... Otherwise he would have been blown apart. Remember that in "Space Seed" he studied her schematics....

>>29328429

All cores can eject. The problem is the ejection system is built into the core (It kind of has to be) so when the core is damaged enough to be in danger of exploding the system is probably damaged too.

Which is why the core eject only works when they need it as an improvised explosive and the core is undamaged, but always fails when it's going to breach.

They did improve the coolant system though as D only had one intake and outtake line, so if either line ruptured the ship was screwed as patching it while the coolant is leaking is impossible since it will kill anyone trying and once the tank was empty the core would blow soon after. Where as E had several lines so if one line blew (like when Data broke it to kill the borg) there was still enough to keep the core cool while they repaired and refilled it.

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I wish Khan's crew had been better cast.

Sure they were badly dressed due to the planet, but they didn't exactly radiate "superior intellect".

>>29328431

They were working on anti Borg weapons and tactics though. They built the Defiant, and there was a whole team at Starfleet tactical working on what to do if the Borg came back plans.

>>29328535
I suppose a mechanical/pneumatic/electrical ejection system was beyond the capabilities of 22nd century scientists.

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>>29328431
>>29328502

Sometimes TNG's idealism really pissed me off, case in point...

The Pegasus.

Starfleet invents a phasing cloaking device that makes it so your ship will pass straight through matter and energy. Would literally change the balance of power in the entire galaxy and ensure the military superiority of the Federation.

What does Picard do? He fucking tells the Romulans about it because they had a fucking treaty with them that said the Romulans could build cloaking devices; but the Federation couldn't. Seriously who the fuck would have agreed to that treaty in the first place? and Picard suddenly trusts the fucking Romulans?

Arrrrrgggggghhhh.

>>29328558
They'd also been stuck on a planet for ~17.5 earth years that was completely uninhabitable.

>>29328558
Space hippies nigga - theirs was superior... is Khan a faggela or not? I always though his "first mate" was his son from his Space Seed Wife who died but maybe a but buddy? Who knows?

>>29328558
well, when you have Ricardo Montalban chewing up every scene as Khan, not many people can keep up with him. Hell, didn't only one of his crew even have lines? The rest just stood there.

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>>29328579
>What does Picard do? He fucking tells the Romulans about it because they had a fucking treaty with them that said the Romulans could >build cloaking devices; but the Federation couldn't. Seriously who the fuck would have agreed to that treaty in the first place?
Who indeed?

>>29328594

Yeah, but they could have done way more than just stand there.

Director, give the poor people you hired stuff to do. No wonder they just stand there bored out of their minds.

"Okay. Now your motivation is to stand next to Ricardo Montalban."

>>29328579
Let's be fair here, the Romulans had a long history of fucking with the Federation and it's founding members before that. By accepting that concession they stayed in their space and stopped doing shit like the raid in Balance of Terror.

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>>29328645

"Oh cut the bleeding heart crap will ya? We've all got to stand there in the scene. I mean up here, there are literally dozens and dozens of people standing and idling and dozing off. Standing, and idling, and dozing....they're dozing...and they're standing.....I can't stand it anymore! All I do is stand, and doze off and be idle! What's my motivation?! Why doesn't somebody give me lines?!"

>>29328647

>By accepting that concession they stayed in their space and stopped doing shit like the raid in Balance of Terror.

You know what else would have kept the Romulans from fucking with the Federation? A cloaking device on every ship.

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OP is wrong, this is the ultimate space weapon

>>29328692
USS Cacken Bouls?

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>>29328692

Mega Maid's ultimate fantasy.

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>>29328645
>>29328672

>Director, give the poor people you hired stuff to do.

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>>29328706
(T)Raumschiff Surprise

>>29328720

Honestly that's a badly designed prop. The extra can barely interact with the damn thing, beyond a ludicrous twisting motion.

>>29328502
The fact that it is muted is to me even worse, because it means
A- he probably didn't think about it
B- we have to come up with an in-universe explanation as to why the populace is so quiet.

At best the federation is basically the Soviet Union or people's republic of China in space.

And really they need a lot more defiance ships.

So far they have survived as a society due to luck and their enemies last-second moments of stupidity. And relying on your enemies stupidity is not a survival mechanism.


>>29328559
But that realistically wouldn't be enough. If an invasion showed up (narrowly defeated) then the question isn't "what do we do if they come back" it's now "how do we ensure they don't do it ever again".

It'd be like letting the Japanese to after Pearl Harbor with a warning. Except here the borg are even worse, since domination of everything is there main goal and they are hyper aggressive.

Without getting too 40K, but against an aggressive genocidal hive mind genocide itself may be the only realistic defense, at least until you can pin them into a surrender and strong treaty.

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>>29326282
>mfw fedfags thing their space dp-28s are hot shit

>>29328579
Yup.

Federation is like the state department in an endless circle jerk.

>>29328579

That treaty kept the federation and romulans at peace. Telling them about the illegal activity and punishing the wrongdoers built trust.

That said, I absolutely agree with what Starfleets server sector was doing.

Having a contingency plan is a good idea and allowing politics to cripple technology isn't a good thing usually.

>>29328807

Gazorra's "Flauting Danger" pretty much summed up how Picard viewed his crew.

>>29328675
You know what would fend off the romulans too? A long-standoff WMD system that would level cities. It's not like it would be impossible to mount a nuke-equivalent with a warp drive.

Also, to combat Klingons how about get some real security officers on deck? I would bet a platoon of those batleth swinging shits would get their asses kicked by a fireteam of US marines with M4s.

If you have to go hand to hand or blind fire a tv remote laser without sights, your infantry operations and tactics suck at every level.

>>29327736
>What was the point of having a "head" on the ship if the bridge wasn't there?

Navigational deflector - the thing that keeps space dust from punching a million tiny holes in your hull and ending your trip prematurely.

>>29328848
God damn that vid makes him look like he has legit autism

>>29328795
>And really they need a lot more defiance ships.
The Class had some serious defects, and was in cold storage until Sisko drew it as DS9's station's ship, the mods O'Brian made to fix all of its problems were integrated into a series of new construction ships, so several were completed and in service by the time the Dominion war went hot.

>>29328894

The post-"Warp Core breach!" sound/visual gag had me laughing uncontrollably the first time I saw it.

>>29328444
>the battle bridge was stolen
I think you're forgetting who it actually belonged to.

>>29328795

They already have Borg marked as automatically hostile and kill on sight though. They do work on Anti Borg things.

They can't exactly take the fight to the Borg. They don't know where the Borg come from, and they don't know where the Borg homeworld is, nor do they have any communcation with them.

All they know is that once in awhile a Borg cube flies in from far far outside known space and they intercept and destroy it. They can't really go to War with the Borg because the Borg live off the known grid of space.

They can't just send a massive fleet into the distant unknown in the hope they find the Borg homeworld.

>watched Star Trek as a kid and throughout school
>always wanted Star Trek to go dark without going crazy retarded scifi
>always thought it would be really cool if an ex-federation agent started a civil war on some colonies
>would steal federation ships by beaming the entire crew into space
>had some of the best minds he could get his hands on nigger rig him a warship from federation scraps and civilian

We see a ton of the aliens and different species, but all we ever see of the billions of humans is San Francisco. I'd love for them to explore more of how humanity is adapting to the globalization of space.

Kind of glad the new movie series is exploring that to some degree but that is more of an excuse to make it a Hollywood action flick.

I want Picard spending a season trying to track down a terrorist in Federation space, who turns out to be some asshole working with the Klingons to uncover some plot to foil the federation.

I think what I'm saying is I want the Tom Clancy equivalent of Star Trek. Or another Battlestar Galactica.

>>29326840
Except they don't often the holodeck for training, and it randomly will threaten to kill people.

The holodeck seems to be frequently used for bullshit like recreation.

Bitches can rig up some Playstation Nines, iPads, and Xbox Twos if they want entertainment, but you don't need to use the multi-million dollar machine to imitate a victorian village just to fuck a villager in a corset

>>29328925
I thought they could back track them through the nexus centers and stuff?

It's been a while since I saw Star Trek TNG, I had such high hopes for ST: enterprise but then it sorta started to fall apart.


>>29328909
Yeah but there didn't seem to be a bunch of other options. I certainly wouldn't expect their first real warship to be flawless out of the box, but the defiance kicked some noticeable ass.

>>29328937

wasn't that basically what the entire dominion war in DS9 was about, finding changeling spooks hidden everywhere fucking shit up from within?

>>29328444
Star Trek at least could be shifted to CGI without the ships looking noticeably different, and they did a good job making them look "not cgi" compared to contemporary series. And it meant they could do bigger stuff than "two ships facing each other" look good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbGs93JFfb0

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>>29328801

>Star Wars nerds think their shit is the biggest and baddest

Haha.

>>29328801
>Space DP-28
Enjoy your space pizza slice.

>>29328969

Not really. They had a very vague guess where the Borg might be coming from but that was it.

And even still this area is literally years at maximum speed out side Federation Space. There's a reason the Borg made the most apperances in Voyager, where they were decades away from the Federation. They are far far away from Starfleet's operations.

And they still never found the Borg homeworld. So going to war with the Borg is impossible. Well they're sort of always at war with the Borg, but an attack you're suggesting is impossible. They wouldn't even know where to look, and it's far outside the area Starfleet ships can reliably operate.

>>29329032
At the least it isn't as autistic and goddamn cancerous.

>inb4 "muh HERESYYY REEEEEEE"

>>29329014
Was't the right feel. DS9 felt a little too low bro and third worldy. The fact it was on this weird ass funky space station, the ferengi are running around doing dumb shit for profit, and the Dominion war was just filled with Star Trekisms at every corner.

I guess DS9 was too ghetto set in space Harlem, when what I'm interested in is a House of Cards level. All the chips, front row, the best of the best in plain view.

Into Darkness was pretty much right on what I'd like, but imagine that movie playing out over 20 hours, trying to track down the giant space ship, figuring out who Khan is and why he is a psychopath, Scotty doing his own digging and investigative work on the side instead of just casually calling in his Deus Ex on his space cellphone after he already has the solution.

>>29328801
Why are there multiple tie advances when Vader's was the only one?

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>>29329032
>giant glass window weakspots
>all those unnecessary esthetic features
>builtlikeafuckingseaborneship

Holy shit this is almost comical its so bad. Are 40k writers like 15?

>>29329093
It's meant to be comical, it's even funnier because people take it seriously.

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>>29329093
Gotta have all those cathedral features to make it through hell when you want to use your warp drive.

>Even then, you don't always make it because dark and grim

>>29329093
Yes. Yes they are.

>IN A WORLD OF GRIMM DARK
>THE GALAXY MUST BURN CUZ VIOLENCE
>FOR DA EMPARAH!!!
>BABIES BURN AS MUH ORKS EAT VIRGIN FLESH AND POUR FROM DA CHAOS LIKE PLAGUES UPON YER HOUSES
>MEGADEATH CATHEDRALS
You WILL buy our horribly overpriced power creep miniatures.
>BLUD FOR DA BLUD GOD!


I mean the EU for Star Wars got weird, but they need a reset more than we did.

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>>29326282
Nope

>>29329032

>be emprahfag
>get holed by Tau railguns
>or overrun by Tyranids/Orks
>or consumed by the Warp

>>29329146
>You WILL buy our horribly overpriced power creep miniatures.

Fucking tell me about it. I miss the game itself, but I'm glad I'm not throwing money at it anymore.

>>29329146
>>BLUD FOR DA BLUD GOD!
Indeed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vljHBXA3UKE

>>29329165
Really want to know what all that pointy shit is.

>>29329193
I went to my local game shop the other day for /tg/ purposes, thought about getting new 1 inch minis for a space RPG game and looked at 40k just cuz muh power armor MUHRINES.

4x space marine mooks were $20, shitty blue paint-job too.

Fuck all that noise.

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>>29329224
>shitty blue paint-job

Warhams doesn't come NIB painted...

>>29329193
>Really want to know what all that pointy shit is.
space-antenna

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The Rock is the ultimate space weapon.

PS this is now a 40k thread...

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>>29329121
>>29329146

>>29329243
>space-antenna

For space-tunes on space-radio?

>>29329237
Then I guess the lgs or someone else did it, I thought It was weird and they said they are "lightly used", hence in a loose baggy of mooks, but I thought it was an absurd price either way.

I'm not paying $5 for a single shitty marine, painted or no.

>>29329254
>Event Horizon, the Warp Drive

It's shit like this that made me never get into it. Way too edgy.

>>29329266
>absurd price

It is. Money better spent on actual bullets. That's my philosophy now, although I still read some of the novels.

>>29326343

You know, as often as Federation ships seem to break down you'd think this might be a standard hull type. Double redundancy.

It's not like cost matters to them, right?

>>29329193
>that pointy shit
for ramming enemy ships

semper fi

>>29329254
The 40k people always cite their ship size and dakka as power projection, but if US BCGs regularly just vanished for months at a time and missed their target by several seas we wouldn't be able to claim to use them with any degree of efficiency or predictability.

"Muh strongest navy"
>in other news the entire 5th navy has vanished somewhere in the Persian gulf attempting to make its way on a patrol. Half of the force re supplying at Diego Garcia has vanished, and a WW2 Iowa class has been seen bombarding the coast of Japan. Last but not least 3 B-1 bombers have completed bombing runs on isis 3 months after their initial departure. Sure there weren't any terrorists there anymore, but a round of applause for trying.

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>>29329294
>for ramming enemy ships

Doesn't look sturdy enough for that.

Since the Federation came up in this thread, I'll say one thing about them.

I fucking hate all their ships. They're all fucking hideous to me.

The Sulaco? perfectly fine. Pic related Halo ships? Absolutely fine. 40k human ships? Flashy, but same concept as the others.

Seriously. Why would you have all your ship splayed out flat like the Federation style, and not in a conservative 'block' shape like the ones I mentioned above? I realize Star Trek ships are meant to not be warships, but it seems absolutely retarded to me to fly around in a ship that's ;literally 1/2 frisbee.

>>29329349
Curves were the aesthetic back then, and admittedly they do have a distinct look to them. Kinda flying saucer esque.

But you can spot a federation ship out of a lineup a mile away,

>>29328364

That's a cool fucking design. I read somewhere that the original Romulan Bird-of-Prey was supposed to be a Federation ship.

>>29329349
because blocks are fucking boring.

there, I said it.

that shit is visually boring, and generic.
rule of cool before hard science.

>>29329423
>rule of cool before hard science.

Fuck.

>>29326512
Federation ships ARE armed to the teeth, a standard photon torpedo in the TNG series is basically a variable yield antimatter weapon with a maximum yield of 70 megatons or something like that. If by armed to the teeth, you mean bristling with weapons, then you're right. Starfleet is mainly a peacekeeping and exploration agency, with an emphasis on the latter.

>>29326512
Well actually, many Federation ships are modular to a moderate degree, only they are fitted out with scientific modules and whatnot, but inna war they can go back to space dock and refit with the hard shit.

>>29329453

They actually are bristling with weapons. It's not as obvious because ship board weapons in Star Trek aren't depicted as giant guns on the hull, but the Enterprise D for example has Phaser's all around the saucer. Upper and lower. It rarely fires more than a few at a time but it's got plenty of weapons on it.

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>>29329069

I know what the Federation could build to counter that.

>>29329328
you did it wrong

>3 B-1 Bombers that were not done being >made yet have begun bombing targets of an >unknown designation by an unknown >authority. They have the correct authorization though.

>>29328200
>robocop
I was calling Weller "Admiral Robocop" and the Vengeance "USS ED-209" based on the amount of gore it unleashed.

>>29328238
>compared to other ships it was fucking gay

They're all fucking gay >>29329349

>>29329573

True. However
>>29328692 is clearly the gayest.

>>29328647
At least Space North Korea listened to treaties or if their shit got slapped. Real NK just does whatever.

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swerve primitive shits

>>29328042
Believe it or not the original Constitution class could also separate. It was only a one off deal to evacuate the ship in case something like what happened in Generations happened. It was never shown because they never could figure out how to film such a feat with the cheep ass budget they had at the time.

>>29328937

I want a Section 31 series with the same tone as "The Sandbaggers" or "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy", people under extreme stress trying to make decisions that will have life or death consequences. Make Section 31 into a group of people that believe the Federation's utopian society needs to be defended and its values preserved, even if you have to go well outside it's values to do it.

>>29329328

Basically, yeah.

That's kinda the point of the setting, only that kind of shit happens like 1 in 1000 times.

Meaning constantly, because numbers.

>>29328521
Sauce pls? My erection needs this.

>>29329654

/thread

>>29326774
>the most "fuck you, pay me" ship design the federation ever built

But it;s so fucking tiny.

>>29329539
>one of ISIS's top commanders was killed by himself from "3 days hence." The propaganda video shows him holding 2 golden AKs which he views as a sign of Allah's favor. A planned offensive has been halted since hundreds of daesh fighters are reportedly trying to figure out which of them are real.
>The Chinese Army has nuked several Uighur settlements to prevent counterrevolutionary thought from spreading.
>Sweden sent emissaries to North Korea in order to convince them to accept their enlightened socialist ways under their king. The Swedish ambassador was last seen being subjected to myriad torture methods whilst Kim drank wine out of a Red Cross employee's skull.
>The US has declared a total ban on user-servicable computers, citing religious reasons.
>Australian was consumed by horrendous psychic tentacled hybrids from beyond the stars. The New Zealand PM noted it was just Tuesday.

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>>29326871
>Krenim Time Ship

You mean the 'foot-in-ass' ship?

I never really liked ST's ship designs, but for some reason I always thought the Intrepid class was ok.

Armored Voyager is best Voyager.

>>29328618
>>29328647
>>29328820
Have yall ever considered that maybe that the Treaty of Algeron was intentionally shitty to showcase that treaties made quickly can have a crappy effect later on? If anything this was a pretty realistic look at modern geopolitical problems
>be Picard
>get spooky CIA/DARPA fag big wig onboard
> kept in dark
>sent to neutral zone with an empire that we are having deteriorating relations with
>told to explore an asteroid field
>best friend and right hand man is being a cheeky wanker all of a sudden
>out of Earl Grey
>what we're looking for happens to be a secret weapon whose characteristics are the Anti-Thesis of a shit treaty we made from a position of weakness decades ago
>said Empire shows up and demands to know what we're up to
>3 to 1 odds iirc (been awhile since I've seem the episode)
>would likely die if we stand up and fight considering the ace in the hole that we JUST learned we had, is stuck inna asteroid and in questionable condition at best.
>Fighting would also spark interstellar war, something I know Starfleet isn't REMOTELY ready for
>do you wish to run assetdenial.exe?
>Yes
>Kiss Romulan ass to de-escalate tensions/ make it seem like we are doing right by them and not also getting rid of something that if reverse-engineered, could fuck us up worse than the Borg.

Professor X made the right fuckin call. It was a Kobeyashi Maru scenario if ever there was on that he managed to diffuse and turned an interplanetary incident into a negligable hiccup in the shitty, but manageable status quo.

>>29328969
Even if they were able to track them down through the nexus, it woulda been a Klendathu/10 operation, with the best personnel and tech the Federation had to offer assimilated . Sometime defense is the better option.

>>29329081
I agree. Into Darkness imo didn't feel like Star Trek, not because of all the nods to Wrath of Khan or the "muh terrorist" plotline, but the fact it was SO fast paced and action-flicky. I really wish they would have made a season like that.

>>29329279
This

>>29326282
/k/, /k/
what if we got a space station with lots of explosive lethal shit on it hovering above the world
and whenever there was an issue we drop it onto the issue
like a nuke that can't be detected. By the time you see it you can't get away
>inb4 muh money to get space gravity bomb into space
Keeps poor shit countries from being able to get their own space gravity bombs

>>29329349
Well, all UNSC ships were based off the design of the Sulaco, and the UNSC in general off the Colonial Marines/ human technology in Aliens.

>>29330041

Yeah really. It's not like Picard had options. The Romulan's found them. Either he started a war right then, or he explained the situation and turned Admiral jackass over.

>>29329737
This, I totally forgot about that. IIRC all Federations ships Post-Constitution could as well

>>29329254
And this is why 40K is complete emo fail.

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>>29328331
The Reliant pounded on the Enterprise all movie and got btfo by a crippled ship in about four hits.

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>>29330312
Plus, it can be beat by Microsoft Excel:The Game.

>>29330337

Their firepower was about even, but Reliant initially only disabled Enterprise because he wanted Genesis, and then was taken by a cheap shot.

And then in the finale, thanks to 3D thinking Reliant missed almost every shot (although the one they managed wrecked the warp drive) while Enterprise landed every hit. Every hit to an unshielded hull mind you.

>>29330343
>Microsoft Excel:The Game.

>Be me
>Fire up the demo because I like spaceships
>Fuck around and examine some of the wait times for doing shit
>Two weeks to learn a skill
>Other time-consuming shit
>I have a fucking FT job, fuck this game

>>29330099

Fuck it, just start blowing up suns.

>FIRE BREAK PROTOCOL

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I liked the d'deridex the most. As with most of the non-federation ships the writers and directors could never decide how big or powerful it was.

In TNG it was 2x the size of a galaxy class and everyone was terrified of them. Then they became small and weak in DS9 and ruined the romulans in the nemisis movie and replacing it with a ship that looked out of place.

>>29330381

>I have a fucking FT job, fuck this game
Of course you can't to both, silly. EVE is supposed to REPLACE your full-time job.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/01/29/massive-eve-online-battle-could-cost-500000-in-real-money/#75eae3eb1c23
>Estimates of the total losses incurred by players during the height of the battle range from $300,000 to $500,000, most of that coming from the wreckage of massive “Titan” space-ships, which cost between $3,000 and $3,500 a piece in real money. (Exchange rates vary in EVE.)

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>>29328848
>"The Federation's gone, the Borg are everywhere!"
>"Yes this is all very interesting Number One."

>>29326774

Its proper name however is

>USS Benjamin siskos motherfucking pimphand

>>29327854

And roddenberry was a pinko commie cunt who hated the thought that they even should fight anybody.

He even hated the idea of conflict, and that kills every good story written in the history of mankind

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>not posting the most /k/ scifi series ever

These space battles are comfy and the tech is just great

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>>29326774

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>>29328364

>>29328672

I always thought of them as Cimmerians in space. Noble savages who are highly intelligent but enjoy walking around in loincloths

>>29328854

Well i can imagine that the bathlet was usefull earier in boarding actions, when projectile weapons would pierce the hull.

Ive seen some anime where they use pressure suits and axes, cant remember wich

>>29329022

>sacrifice of angles

Best episode of DS9

>into the valley of death rode the six hundred.

>>29329022

>klingons attacking with the sun at their backs

I bet they have Sabaton blasting away as they hurl themselves against the useless cardassians! K'PLA!

>>29329022
I didn't like the CG ds9 battles, what space ship battles supposedly look like in star trek vary too much. They use to be slow drawn out battles and shields took effort to get through.

By the end of DS9 shields would last about 1 shot and another one or two shots would destroy almost any ship.

The ship sizes changed far too much as well, sometimes the klingon negvah was as big as ds9, other times it was just an upgrade or their vorcha class.

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It really is amazing the Borg didn't just pown everyone.

>>29331395
Wouldn't the simple solution just be hollow points or other frangible ammunition that WOULDNT pierce?

>>29326282
that torpedo launcher is a massive design flaw actually, if hit in combat it tends to explode, taking the entire roll bar and often one or both warp nacelles with it, leaving the ship without any offensive armament as the phasers are also on the roll bar

source, star trek academy as a kid.

>>29329882
>But it;s so fucking tiny.
hence relatively easy to mass produce.

the bit about the federation not normally having warships is kind of innaccurate, most federation starships were designed to be multi role with combat being part of the role, the galaxy class were a experiment in long range exploration vessels taking families with them to aid crew stability on long deployments, however it wasnt standard practise and was abandoned on following classes as the size and capability of galaxy class ships meant they ended up in combat more frequently anyway.

but the defiant class were a solution to the whole 'no dedicated warship issue' in that they were small, quick to build dedicated warships that could be rapidly built and deployed during wartime, rather than the slower to build multi role ships with all the bells and whistles

>>29327736
from a combat perspective it would fool the enemy into thinking the bridge is located there, which could cause them to focus on attacking what is actually the cafeteria

>>29331954

Well i just see it this way. Is the spaceship tougher than body armor?

>>29328431
Read
>>29326871
Additionally,
>>No formal investigations, no call to arms
All of that is false, those things happened.
>>Crew goes on like its no big thing
Except for the fact they changed policies, tactics, armaments, and everything else. And they're not military, it';s not their job to fight the Borg.

>Thats literally like if the Soviet Union had four troop transports, a nuclear sub, a destroyer, and their carrier streaming for washington DC and they were stopped by a single US boat due to a miracle. Heads would fucking ROLL on capital hill if we narrowly averted a soviet invasion and NOTHING came of it.

Except in this case the two belligerents have COLOSSALLY different tech levels and we knew virtually know about them beforehand.

>Gene's push toward Socialist Utopia kind of messed with the design of a lot... But of course it isn't a utopian drama to have a scared terrified populace calling for a massive increase in defense production, and it would threaten his ideas of a peaceful show that showcased socialism and future tech.
Roddenberry was well dead by the time TNG and the rest explored the Borg more.

>In a world where enemy stealth is a thing, cyborgs try to invade your homeworld, and rogue super beings literally show up just to dick around you don't go peaceful turtle, you arm up and ensure its dangerous for anyone to mess with you.
Except the Romulans are a fairly minor threat, they do arm up after the Borg, and the Q don't fight you, and if you tried to fight them you'd lose horribly. But even then, they are doing their best to study and prepare to fight the Q, along with everyone else.

1/?

>>29332032
Not sure, we don't see much body armor in Star Trek. Shitty leather vests in I think the original series notwithstanding.

>>29332040
>you don't go peaceful turtle, you arm up and ensure its dangerous for anyone to mess with you.
They didn;t go turtle at all, they expanded all their programs to be able to find and deal with the threat, and again, the Federation can deal with most of its immediate enemies with little to no trouble, they don't really NEED to arm up. The Federation is the single largest entity in their part of the galaxy, and their Star Fleet, being non-military, can handle the threat 99.99% of the time.


>>29328795
>we have to come up with an in-universe explanation as to why the populace is so quiet.
The fact that they know so little about the Borg, the fact that what we watch is about Star Fleet and not the citizenry of the Federation, the fact that the citizenry did join the military and Star Fleet in droves following the attacks, the fact that. There's more, but seriously, they know, we just don't hear about it because the show isn't a political drama.

>At best the federation is basically the Soviet Union or people's republic of China in space.
Except for basically everything about them, barring mainly the economics policy, but they live in a post-scarcity society, and they still have capitalism up the wazoo.

>And really they need a lot more defiance ships.
They;re building more, and they're building better

>So far they have survived as a society due to luck and their enemies last-second moments of stupidity.
With the Borg I'd agree, but the rest were handled fairly normally and without too much trouble (barring the Dominion, but when you have nearly omnipotent beings on your side...)

2/?

>>29332048

>But that realistically wouldn't be enough. If an invasion showed up (narrowly defeated) then the question isn't "what do we do if they come back" it's now "how do we ensure they don't do it ever again".
It will never be enough, the Borg have WAY more tech, troop number, and ship numbers. Everything they have is better than ours, and EVERY time we get around some piece of their tech, they almost instantly adapt. There is not 'enough'. The Federation can't stop invasion, they just can't. They have no idea where the Borg are based out of, and they simply do not, and will never have the means to defeat them conventionally.

>It'd be like letting the Japanese to after Pearl Harbor with a warning. Except here the borg are even worse, since domination of everything is there main goal and they are hyper aggressive.
Again, you're making bad comparisons. You keep implying roughly equal tech, standing, and means, which DOES NOT exist between the Borg and Federation. The Federation, in EVERYTHING, is inferior to the Borg. In that kind of situation, you don't try and attack them on their ground, you defend UNTIL you have the means to attack them there.

>Without getting too 40K, but against an aggressive genocidal hive mind genocide itself may be the only realistic defense, at least until you can pin them into a surrender and strong treaty.
Again, the Federation does not, and will never have the means to defeat the Borg conventionally. And the Borg will NEVER surrender, they will always fight, and they will always come back. The ONLY solution, is their complete and utter eradication.

3/?

>>29332055
>>29328969
>I thought they could back track them through the nexus centers and stuff?
In Voyager, they found one of the Borg hubs and managed to destroy it, but iirc, no, they can't track Borg ships well/at all.

>Yeah but there didn't seem to be a bunch of other options. I certainly wouldn't expect their first real warship to be flawless out of the box, but the defiance kicked some noticeable ass.
They've been designing and building more ships, like the Prometheus-class.

>>29329069
>>29330099
These

4/4

>>29329777
>Make Section 31 into a group of people that believe the Federation's utopian society needs to be defended and its values preserved, even if you have to go well outside it's values to do it.
That's literally the entire point of their existence.

>>29330471
The Federation doesn't have that tech yet, iirc, no one who needs it does.

>>29329254
>Tau stronk

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Hello Star Trek fags

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>>29332105
Greetings soon to be salvage.

>>29332058
>>29332055
>>29332048
>>29332040

See I don't see their tech levels being quite as different outside of a few fields (and the federation seems quite good at coming up with tech-wankery work arounds), and I guess I struggle understand how no one else outside of the federation and the species that have run into the borg seems to view the borg as an existential threat. If there was EVER an existential threat this seems like a great time to form a larger coalition for defense and deterrent, and start a research initiative to end the borg once and for all.

And fair point, they didn't know about the borg. It would help if they were portrayed more consistently, but that could be deliberate.

Maybe a post-voyager series would clear the air as to the borg threat.

I don't hold it against anyone to lose against god-like beings, that's just not fair to start.

I guess I severely overestimated the threat of the various factions to the federation.

Now I want to go back and see some Star Trek.

>>29332114
>>29332105
40k and EVE mean nothing to me because I have no scope of the powerlevels.

What can these fancy ships actually DO?

>>29332125
>>29332058


I will say I think one thing they do badly is portraying average people's lives and I think the show underestimates the use of seeing a ground-up view of a situation.

Yeah they change a few things but I think it was a missed opportunity to go down to earth and portray a shocked populace scared shitless after a narrow invasion. I guess I feel there wasn't enough drama to go with it. But maybe that's not what they were going for.

>>29332150
That massive ship in the EVE pic is a Titan. Largest ship in the game. Fires a Doomsday that can vaporize any dreadnaught and carrier instantly, and deal heavy damage to a supercarrier and Titan.

It would eat the 40k flagship for breakfast.

>>29332125
>See I don't see their tech levels being quite as different outside of a few fields

Do you not remember every time the feds went against the collective and got stomped? Do you not remember the battle of wolf 359? Where a single borg ship defeated dozens of fed ships? And they don't just beat them in weapons tech, they have access to transwarp drive technology, which is basically teleportation on a starship scale.

>>29332150
The 40K ship is good at being possessed by daemons. The EVE ship is really good at microsoft office and knows every keyboard shortcut in excel.

>>29332150
The guy talking about salvage posted the Aeon, the Amarrian titan.

I don't know what the sketch is, but chances are, it's too small for the Aeon's guns to track, and too small a target to reliably hit with fighters and bombers.

>>29332168
Federation also seems to have a head start in AI, time manipulation, and probably has a great understanding of cloaking tech that goes unused. I don't recall the borg having those though.

In a straight fight yes I know they borg are ahead NOW, but in a decade I wouldn't be surprised if the Feds caught up

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>>29332114
Please send help

>>29332180
The 40k ship is 5 miles long. Is that big?

>>29332183
>decade

The borg have at least a century or two lead on the federation when it comes to tech. Trillions of minds all dedicated to a single purpose can work wonders.

>>29332186
Half the EVE titan, definitely not small by EVE standard, not the biggest though.

>>29332186
EVE titans weigh in at around 14km.

>>29331395
Legend of Galactic Heroes, I believe.

>>29332198
But wasn't the Borg's main motivation to try and get Data the fact that he is an advanced AI?

If the borg had time manipulation I'm sure it would have been used, same with cloaking. Cloaking in particular would be useful for an offense, this I confess I can't recall if they had the ability or not

>>29332211
Borg can time travel, they did it in First Contact. As for cloaking, they're so far ahead of most other races they meet that hiding their ships is pointless.

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Okay but we can all agree that 40k would fuck up any other universe as far as boarding, right?

>>29332125
>I don't see their tech levels being quite as different outside of a few fields
It is, in EVERYTHING. All military tech is vastly inferior, same with medical, nano, coms, cybernetics, travel, ships, fundamental understanding of the universe, etc. The Borg have assimilated the knowledge and technology of thousands of civilisations, and can develop it far, far faster than anyone else.

>I guess I struggle understand how no one else outside of the federation and the species that have run into the borg seems to view the borg as an existential threat. If there was EVER an existential threat this seems like a great time to form a larger coalition for defense and deterrent,
Well, the thing is the Borg typically only ATTACK potential threats, they mop everyone else up later. So they ended up focusing on the Federation and not the Romulans Klingons, Cardassians, etc, though they do attack them slightly from time to time. And this result in the Federations enemies not thinking the Borg are really interested in them, so they hope they won't attack them more, and they view the Borg as a way to remove the Federation.

>start a research initiative to end the borg once and for all.
iirc, all the secrets parts (like Section 31) of everyone are researching how to deal with them.

>>29332160
I agree. I actually think it would be interesting to see a series more (but not entirely) focused on that side of things.

>>29332183
>AI
Not really
>Time Manipulation
No, the Borg can do it more easily and are definitely more willing.
>Cloaking tech
I don;t actually recall, but realistically, if the Borg don't have it, as soon as the Federation does use it, the Borg will get it.

In a straight fight yes I know they borg are ahead NOW, but in a decade I wouldn't be surprised if the Feds caught up.
It took thirty years (Voyager: Endgame) for the Federation to BEGIN to be able to handle the Borg, and that was more just surviving them more than being able to fight them.

>>29332211
>But wasn't the Borg's main motivation to try and get Data the fact that he is an advanced AI?
Nope, they wanted him to defect to the Borg because he'd be so valuable for intel. (And fun fact, he made out with the Queen).

>If the borg had time manipulation I'm sure it would have been used, same with cloaking. Cloaking in particular would be useful for an offense, this I confess I can't recall if they had the ability or not
Basically what >>29332222 said.

File: Dust 514.jpg (1MB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1920x1080px

>>29332223
No.

>>29332223
There was one universe some anon read in a book that had minor skirmishes with trillions of ships and deaths. They might take the cake.

>>29332247
>EVE can take 40K
Come on, son. They're not even in the same league.

>>29332247
Buddy.

>>29332255
I want to know that series. I want to know the Sci-Fi series with the biggest scale of them all.

>>29326512
>continue to build starships rather than fighting ships.
Part of the reason why the heroes of the various series have beaten off insurmountable odds is because Federation technobabble gets them out of trouble almost every time. Humanity would have been wiped out several times over if it weren't for these "science" ships doing far more than any simple gunboat could.

>>29332222
>>29332236
>>29332244

I guess I must have missed the time travel aspect, or just forgot over the years.

Time to fire up netflix.

Any favorite episodes that are good revisits?

>>29332244
Yeah I remember data making out with the queen, that was certainly an interesting point

Just for everyone to have and look at.

http://orig03.deviantart.net/494a/f/2014/171/0/1/size_comparison___science_fiction_spaceships_by_dirkloechel-d6lfgdf.jpg

>>29332262
I want to know too, but I didn't save the name sadly.

>>29332255
>They're not even in the same league.

In most respects they are, and they far outstrip 40k when it comes to logistics and production. The build times in EVE have been stated to be in real time. That means capsuleers(the player characters)can produce entire fleets in a matter of days.

>>29332045

Yes that is why i said that the bathlet was important earlier. before phasers and slugs could pierce the hull of a starship but not bodyarmor.

>>29332262
Honestly?

Probably FutureMA or Hitchikers guide to the galaxy. To my knowledge anyway.

>>29332273
He's saying your office-worker couldn't handle a space marine. Which is true.

>>29332280
Futurama, not FutureMA

Fuck you autocorrect

>>29332223
questionable actually, culture drones would eat them alive, and its unlikely the armor would stop phaser blasts once the ST crews turned up the settings a notch.

>>29332307
What is a "culture drone?"

>>29332288
The capsuleers don't fight personally, that's what the DUST troopers are for. They use miniaturized capsule tech to produce immortal mercenaries with all sorts of crazy ass weapons.

>>29332273
Not even close dude, EVE has less than 10,000 star systems. The Imperium is so fucking large they don't even know how big it is. They have a MINIMUM of EVERYTHING within a 50,000 light year radius. There is no way in hell EVE has better production, numbers, or tech. The Imperium's logistics are a nightmare yes, but the Imperium would crush EVE in about an hour.

>>29332321

>having a nice start trek thread
>gaaaaah must sperg my autist 40K grimdark ultra power fantasy!!!!

go start your own thread faggot

>>29332150
Well, the Titans are about the same size as the biggest Imperium battleships and have arguably as much firepower. They're controlled by immortal pilots than can upload their memories to new clones if their body is destroyed.

Titans are also much easier to manufacture as in the 13 years EVE has been running, hundreds have been built in real time. The exact number is unknown since player run corporations keep them secret but there was at least 314 in 2010

>>29332078
The Genesis Device is a peaceful terraforming device that is on par with most sci-fi doomsday weapons, only they go everyone else beat on size and portability. Section 31 probably took some notes when it was first deployed.

>>29332114

IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE FAR FUTURE

THERE IS ONLY ANARCHO-CAPITALISM

>>29332167
The Gloriana-class chapter flagship is actually bigger than most titans, although not by much.

What's more worrying is that a Titan can be built in a matter of months while building an Imperium Battleship can take decades.

>>29332321
>There is no way in hell EVE has better production, numbers, or tech.

Except they do, this is proven fact, and unlike the collection of retards that is the ad mech, the people of EVE still know how to build all their shit. And as I said, word of God, aka the game creators, is that build times in EVE occur in real time. Building a fleet in EVE takes days, building a fleet in 40K takes centuries.

>>29332346
The thread is about space weapons you fag and I posted like a dozen times about Star Trek. Just because some people start talking about something you don't like doesn't invalidate it.

>gaaaaah must sperg my autist 40K grimdark ultra power fantasy!!!!
A. I find Warhammer interesting, as well as many other sci-fi settings.
B. I made like 3 Warhammer posts
C. If anyone is sperging and being an autist it's you.
>Waaaaaaah someone's talking about something I don't like
>Better post and insult them for no reason!

>>29332370
True, but iirc, it only worked that way when it was used near life. The idea is very sci-fi, but not its scope of effect. Blowing up suns would do much more damage, and still remains outside the Federation's abilities.

>>29332411
EVE versus Tyranids or Orks

go

>>29332405
There are still governments in EVE, they just don't bother going after the capsuleers because it would be far too much trouble for far too little gain. Better to just set them against one another, and sub contract the more loyal/useful ones.

>>29332312
intelligent artificial life form in iain banks 'culture' novels, force fields and advanced energy manipulation systems as standard, a standard drone is essentially a floating object with a 150+ IQ and the destructive capability of a MBT a drone armed for bear is much worse.

>>29332422
Tyranids would likely avoid capsuleers as the pay off they'd get in biomass would be nowhere near what they would lose(same reason they don't engage necrons if they can avoid it). Orks would probably love the DUST troopers as they can't truly be killed and just keep coming back for more(kind of like the orks only their ability is tech based instead of biology based).

>>29332346
Relax. Like it or not, though - what he's saying isn't technically wrong. The Imperium is far too massive to effectively manage with the archaic means they have available, but once they do actually manage to mass their fleets and fight you, they'll bowl it over by virtue of tech they don't really understand themselves and numbers that are incomprehensible.

So, in order to fight them, you don't fight their massive fleets - you go around them, hit undefended targets and then while they're busy figuring out a response, you go hit another target. Repeat ad infinitum or until you overstretch your own resources.

>>29332465
"Undefended" in the Imperium of Man is not undefended.

>>29332420
>True, but iirc, it only worked that way when it was used near life.
Almost every military target will have life. The device fits in a standard torpedo casing; this means it can be launched at faster than light speed. Torpedoes maintain warp if launched while a ship is at warp, so it is a superweapon that just about nobody has any hope of detecting or avoiding without the same level of tech as Trek.

And red matter is technically a Prime universe invention, made by the Vulcans so it counts as Federation property.

All of it is rendered irrelevant by temporal technology later in the timeline though. Very, very few other sci-fi universes can hope to compete against time travel shenanigans.

>>29332321
However, due to the sorry state of Imperium logistics and understanding of their own sciences mustering even a dozen cruisers is a major undertaking. The mightiest of the Imperium's fleet can't even be replicated because nobody remembers how they made them. Those that can be recreated take years if not decades.

And current estimates put EVE at about 60k planets but nobody has been able to count them all.

>>29332411
>Except they do, this is proven fact, and unlike the collection of retards that is the ad mech, the people of EVE still know how to build all their shit.
the Ad Mechs do know how to build stuff, just not nearly as much stuff as Humans once knew, or the more advanced stuff the Imperium uses.

>And as I said, word of God, aka the game creators, is that build times in EVE occur in real time. Building a fleet in EVE takes days, building a fleet in 40K takes centuries.
I missed that, sorry. In that you're right, their production rates are way higher then, but I'm not sure they can out do the Imperium's sheer amount of production. Even if it can, I would argue that the Imperium has superior tech, but I honestly, don't know much about EVE in that regard. Additionally, the sheer amount of troops the Imperium has is certainly superior, and possibly the amount of ships as well, though I can't find information of the amount EVE would have.

And back to the original post, as far as I'm aware, a Space Marine would wreck an EVE soldier. But perhaps I am wrong.

>>29332478
Except any other universe with time travel. Or universes that just flat-out negate it. I remember one with a Dragon that was made out of the past and would eat anything trying to alter it.

>>29331324
>Newtonian flight mechanics

Made me happy.

>>29332105
How come all of their ships look like giant choo choo trains?

Is the emperor of Man just a giant train autist?

How did the Imperium just forget how to build the most powerful stuff they have? That's kind of important information.

>>29332478
Wait, I just realized that I'm on a whole different conversational line.

Wouldn't some drones be still considered alive? And even if they weren't, nobody can stop the Feds from tossing a monkey into a torpedo and sending the poor sod off as a sacrifice.

Time travel is really important for the Trek universe because it pretty much ensures that the Borg will always lose. We know that the Federation still exists in the far future, so we know that whatever the Borg may try they are certain to fail. And furthermore, whatever the Borg may come up with in the future would likely be squashed before it even began, because Timefleet is one of the most fucking OP organizations in fiction.

>>29332486
>but I honestly, don't know much about EVE in that regard.
http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/28/eve-evolved-top-ten-ganks-scams-heists-and-events/
Not necessarily related, but it's still a good read.

>>29332478
>Almost every military target will have life.
No, I know, my point is that the Federation doesn't the means to explode stars.

>The device fits in a standard torpedo casing; this means it can be launched at faster than light speed. Torpedoes maintain warp if launched while a ship is at warp, so it is a superweapon that just about nobody has any hope of detecting or avoiding without the same level of tech as Trek.
Torpedoes can have their own warp drives first off. Second, the only people who you would use that against are the people who would certainly have the means to detect it.

>And red matter is technically a Prime universe invention, made by the Vulcans so it counts as Federation property.
We're not in that time frame however, and again, that's not blowing up suns, that's making black hole. Which can be more easily avoided in Star Trek iirc.

>Wouldn't some drones be still considered alive?
They are, since people technically can be rescued.

>And even if they weren't, nobody can stop the Feds from tossing a monkey into a torpedo and sending the poor sod off as a sacrifice.
Why would you do that? What are you sacrificing for? They want literally everything and everyone that's useful.

>Time travel is really important for the Trek universe because it pretty much ensures that the Borg will always lose. We know that the Federation still exists in the far future, so we know that whatever the Borg may try they are certain to fail.
Well actually, what we know is that only if the Borg are defeated by the end of the 24th century will everyone else survive. If they aren't defeated by then, they assimilate the entire galaxy by 2600.

And furthermore, whatever the Borg may come up with in the future would likely be squashed before it even began, because Timefleet is one of the most fucking OP organizations in fiction.

Timefleet exists in the 29th century, not in the 24th, and like I said above, they MUST be defeated by the end of the 24th.

>>29332585
Sorry, the last half is for >>29332521

>>29332502
Because everything to them is one giant techno-goth death cult where everything needs priestly knowledge and stuff.

Imagine the religious zealotry of the covenant from halo but even less functional, since it directly effects their logistics and production systems.

>>29332502
Basically a giant evil god was birthed into existence and all human civilisation collapsed, and with it, most known knowledge and tech. It wasn't until 10,000 years later that Humanity reemerged and began to reclaim the galaxy, where they would start to find STCs that told them how to build stuff again. But, iirc, because of the strife, over 98% of human knowledge and tech was lost.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Age_of_Strife

>>29332499
Those ships are older than his reign, many, if not most, were built before he came to power.

But no idea.

>>29332499
>Is the emperor of Man just a giant train autist?

The technical term is foamer.

>>29332609
It also doesn't help that they don't want to relearn everything as the time before the age of strife is referred to as the dark age of technology.

>>29332607
>>29332609
To be fair most of their tech and industry went down in what can be best described as a Chaos-induced AI rebellion.

Think Terminator, with much more advanced tech, and demons.

>>29332485
>However, due to the sorry state of Imperium logistics and understanding of their own sciences mustering even a dozen cruisers is a major undertaking.
That's not true, while getting fleets to coordinate is that difficult, each battle fleet is about 60 ships strong and can be called to action with (relative) ease.

>The mightiest of the Imperium's fleet can't even be replicated because nobody remembers how they made them. Those that can be recreated take years if not decades.
Pretty much

>And current estimates put EVE at about 60k planets but nobody has been able to count them all.
The Imperium controls a minimum of 1,000,000 Human inhabited worlds (thus not counting controlled alien or mutant worlds). So 60k doesn't really compare. And if we're counting non-inhabited worlds, then fuck if I know, but they have a fuck ton more.

>>29332422
Tyranids would eventually be stalled out and pushed back. Due to the lack of crews on Capsuleer ships and the ability to mine from asteroids in addition to planets EVE would have an edge in logistics. I believe that inquisitor Kryptmann was able to stall the Tyranids by virus bombing planets in their wake. Because of the Tyranid's habit of strip harvesting their conquests it's possible for capsuleers to establish bases of operations in places with little to no biomass while only defending a handful of worlds. In a pinch they can pull everything back into space stations and wait the tyranids out.

On the other hand, orks would have a doozy of a time dealing with capsuleer frigates. Ork point defense is pretty crappy to begin with and the tight orbits of lighter EVE ships would be nearly impossible to deal with.

>>29332642
>Ork point defense is pretty crappy to begin with and the tight orbits of lighter EVE ships would be nearly impossible to deal with
>implying it matters where there is a literal wall of bullets

>>29332626
>It also doesn't help that they don't want to relearn everything as the time before the age of strife is referred to as the dark age of technology.
To an extent, they still hunt down and love to get STCs. But yeah, they're stupid careful.

>To be fair most of their tech and industry went down in what can be best described as a Chaos-induced AI rebellion. Think Terminator, with much more advanced tech, and demons.

Um, no. What happened was the birth of Slaanesh, which destroyed the warp and isolated Human worlds, which disabled Humanity's ability to do basically anything. Additionally, the birth of Slaanesh caused wide-spread insanity and possession. All of which caused the massive regression of everything human, including tech and knowledge, which have way to invasion from Orks and other Xenos, as well as civil war and rebellion all over the place.

The Men of Iron had little to do with it.

>>29332699
Shit, second half it meant for
>>29332637

>>29332642
>Tyranids would eventually be stalled out and pushed back.
I don't think EVE doesn't have nearly enough raw material to handle the Tyranids. Let alone troops or ships.

> Due to the lack of crews on Capsuleer ships and the ability to mine from asteroids in addition to planets EVE would have an edge in logistics.
The Imperium can do that too, and they still aren't much of a match. And yes, Imperial logistics are a nightmare, but mining asteroids wouldn't help much regardless.

> I believe that inquisitor Kryptmann was able to stall the Tyranids by virus bombing planets in their wake.
Not by very much, they still took everything, but yes.

>Because of the Tyranid's habit of strip harvesting their conquests it's possible for capsuleers to establish bases of operations in places with little to no biomass while only defending a handful of worlds.
I don't see how that would help at all first off. But really, that doesn't matter when all you need is a single piece of you to get on a planet to take it over. Having biomass-less bases and worlds doesn't matter when you can kill the entirety of the population in short work and time.

>In a pinch they can pull everything back into space stations and wait the tyranids out.
I doubt that would help, the Hive Fleets, even the 'tiny' scout ones they've sent so far, would destroy the stations.


I think you underestimate the Tyranids.

>>29332585
>Timefleet exists in the 29th century
Precisely. The Borg never won, because the Federation (and all their jolly friends) still exist by that time. They can never win before that and even if they have a plan to do so, it won't come to fruition until during the 29th century, past the latest point where we know the Federation is doing alright.

Seeing as the Enterprise-J is busy exploring other galaxies, I really don't think the Borg are a pressing threat even by the 29th century.

>>29332760
>hurrrrrr muh train autist empuruhh of maynneeee beats every other universe!
>nu uhh you can't shood down my cap ship because it has void shields!!!
>Speeecee muhreens are more powerful than ur stupid space guys

This is how 40k fags sound no matter what, and it's exactly what turns me away from the universe.

The worst part is that the games are pretty decent and don't do any of this. The fan fiction just gets out of hand and turns it into a cringefest.

>>29332766
This is just so wrong. We KNOW time can change, that's the entire point of their existence and the Time War. We've seen alternative timelines where the Federation doesn't exist. The Borg can still win, and like I've stated before, if they stop being a threat, they stop being a threat in the 24th, not later.

>>29332766
You want to know what the scary part is?

If the 29th century humans have time travel, this means that they are in a position of power and still exist at that time.

So if the tech for time travel exists in the 29th century... how come we never hear from anyone beyond the 29th century???

>>29332410
>months
Month. Also, the titans have a better tank than the flagship, and I'd wager the weapons systems are better.

>>29332641
>The Imperium controls a minimum of 1,000,000 Human inhabited worlds (thus not counting controlled alien or mutant worlds). So 60k doesn't really compare. And if we're counting non-inhabited worlds, then fuck if I know, but they have a fuck ton more.

Many of those worlds are borderline uninhabitable or have gone feral. Much of the rest are technological backwaters or dedicated to making nothing but food for the less inhabitable ones. Only the hive worlds actually produce anything of value. Well, that and forge worlds but forge worlds belong to the AdMech and they like to pretend they're an independent empire. I'd say it's something like 1 in ten but the Munitorium sometimes forgets what worlds they have so it's anybody's guess.

Anyhow, warp travel often takes weeks or years and that's only when things go perfectly right. Ships have been known to disappear into the warp and never return or return centuries later thinking it was a week or return with their crews extra crispy or arrive before they actually departed.

EVE warp takes a few minutes at the most and interstellar jumps are instantaneous. Warp speed are at about 30 astronomical units a second which puts them at about 15000 times light speed reliably. By the time the Imperium has gotten their fleet together the Capsuleers have created a fleet from scratch. and is raiding imperium worlds.

>>29332790
Why are you being so autistic about this? I was just presenting a counter argument. There are certainly universes that can defeat the Imperium. But all I'm doing is having a discussion, not saying the retarded shit you seem to think I'm saying, or acting retarded like you.

>>29332656
Frigates have shields. Unless they brig their main batteries into play the orks don't mount enough point defense weapons to deal with one.

>>29332823
>calls another anon retarded
>is vehemently defending his own universe by simply coming up with an excuse for each conceived situation.
>doesn't even realize that in his own head everything he's typing sounds perfectly logical and succinct.
>doesn't understand why other people can't stomach his 3edgy5me tabletop game universe.

Just calm down and don't take the bait anon. You'll live longer.

>>29328565
>using mechanical/pneumatic/electrical systems to eject an ultra-dense magnetically-contained A/AM reaction

>>29332799
Alternate universes exist where the Federation has fallen or never came into being in the first place, but not alternate timelines. Time still works in a single thread for most episodes dealing with time travel, so as far as the Prime Federation is concerned they are safe for the time being. If the existence of the 29th century Feds is at stake, they will come back into the past to ensure that nothing goes wrong and that their predecessors survive.

The Borg got degraded to joke villain status after Kathryn "Psycho" Janeway nuked their Queen and central transwarp hub, anyway.

>>29332805
It just means that the latest batch to contact past humans came from the 29th century and these visitors did not take any steps to hide their involvement.

>>29332818
>Many of those worlds are borderline uninhabitable or have gone feral.
Habitability maybe, but not feral. They wouldn't be controlled if they were feral.

Everything else is essentially true, but those planets still represent a far larger resource base than EVE has (iirc), and they don't account for most of the Imperium's population.

>Anyhow, warp travel often takes weeks or years and that's only when things go perfectly right. Ships have been known to disappear into the warp and never return or return centuries later thinking it was a week or return with their crews extra crispy or arrive before they actually departed.
Yes

>EVE warp takes a few minutes at the most and interstellar jumps are instantaneous. Warp speed are at about 30 astronomical units a second which puts them at about 15000 times light speed reliably. By the time the Imperium has gotten their fleet together the Capsuleers have created a fleet from scratch. and is raiding imperium worlds.
Yes

I wasn't thinking about travel or anything, just resource, numbers, tech, and the like, and I was thinking a shorter war, but yeah, you're right. In an expanded conflict, EVE would most certainly win, the only realistic chance the Imperium would have is EVE not noticing they're about to be attacked.

>>calls another anon retarded
After insulting me for no real reason.

>>is vehemently defending his own universe by simply coming up with an excuse for each conceived situation.
I'm presenting points that I think are valid and waiting for a reply, it's called a discussion.

>>doesn't even realize that in his own head everything he's typing sounds perfectly logical and succinct.
I'm not going 'hurr durr look at me im rite your all faggots'. I'm presenting points, and if the people I'm talking to are getting upset or think I'm acting the way you think I am, then I apologise, but I'm jsut trying to have a discussion on something I find interesting.
Also
>Typing sounds

1/2

>>29332853
>>29332908
2/2

>>doesn't understand why other people can't stomach his 3edgy5me tabletop game universe.
I get why people don't like it, and I've never said anything else. And frankly, barring one or two other people than yourself, most people don't seem to care much, and others are engaged in the discussion.

If you don't like it, hide, report, and kindly fuck off.

>>29332410

>decades

I'm a little behind on the lore, but isn't the general gist of it that even mid-size capital ships in the Imperial Navy are centuries old junkers held together by patchwork and the Emperor's will? And that manufacture of even a single ship can take an equal amount of centuries an entire world's resources with it?

>>29332908
>Everything else is essentially true, but those planets still represent a far larger resource base than EVE has (iirc), and they don't account for most of the Imperium's population.

I think what he means is that a lot of these planets don't even know they are apart of the Imperium and or they are worlds that aren't militarily involved with the empire.

>>29332923
Look anon, don't be salty. In truth I like 40k. You're alright in my book and I enjoy the discussion. But I also simultaneously enjoy pissing of hardcore 40k fans because they get so angry.

>>29332898
>Alternate universes exist where the Federation has fallen or never came into being in the first place, but not alternate timelines.
False, we see and travel to timelines where the Federation has fallen or never existed. Just because the original timeline is restored, doesn;t mean those timelines never occurred.

>Time still works in a single thread for most episodes dealing with time travel, so as far as the Prime Federation is concerned they are safe for the time being. If the existence of the 29th century Feds is at stake, they will come back into the past to ensure that nothing goes wrong and that their predecessors survive.
They do go back when they're threatened, that was the entire Time War, and Archer even ends up in an alternate timeline where the Federation didn;t exist/was destroyed (I can;t recall).

These aren;t alternate universes, they're alternate timelines that were 'corrected'. You're applying a fatalist mindset to this, and it simply doesn't apply. Maybe in the real world it does, but not in the Star Trek universe.

Again, we know time can change, we have seen it happen, and usually, it is corrected. Just because a POTENTIAL future does not have the Borg, it does not mean that the Borg will lose no matter what. That was the basis of the First Contact movie.

>>29332964
>I think what he means is that a lot of these planets don't even know they are apart of the Imperium
I actually wonder about that, because all we know is the Imperium controls those world. Does that mean they're fully integrated, or like you said and not even aware they're a part of it?

>they are worlds that aren't militarily involved with the empire.
Each world has to give the Imperial Guard 1 regiment every 10 years iirc, which might negate my above thought.

>>29332908
It takes very little time to create a battleship in EVE. 5 hours maximum. It takes a little over 12 hours to make a squadron of 12 battleships, and most alliance fleets in EVE field at minimum 50 of them at once.

>>29327914
No. Battle specialized starships were an anathema to Gene while he was alive and for the most part his successors have been willing to honor that.
Even DS9's (the show that distanced itself the most from the franchise creator) USS Defiant is mostly sold as a reconnaissance ship. Even DS9 wouldn't totally disregard Gene's wishes.

>>29333002
>Each world has to give the Imperial Guard 1 regiment every 10 years iirc, which might negate my above thought.

That's true but you have to remember they don't make a huge fanfair about it.

The ship parks itself in orbit, they recruit their people and then they are on their merry way.

You also have to remember that for most of the Imperium, normal citizens on non core worlds and non militarized worlds that Space Marines, the Chaos, The Eldar and pretty much everything else is basically either legend or non-existent to them simply because they are so rarely bothered.

I mean if some space humans were to come by every 10 years and snatched a the most a few thousand people off of the earth do you think we'd ever hear about it? Do you think we'd believe it in 5 years when we're half the world away minding our own business?


All I'm saying is that there are planets in the universe that are basically left alone and therefore either have no knowledge or very limited knowledge that they are a part of any greater presence in the universe than themselves and or their star system.

>>29333080
Defiant was sold as an anti Borg ship.

>>29331589
I like to think what was going on in the Cardasian's heads when hundreds of Galaxy class starships appeared out of no where!

>>29333087
cont. in support of my previous post.

IIRC There are many ways to worship the Emperor within the imperium and they are kind of loose on the rules. On some worlds, they worship the sun, and the Imperium says "close enough, the sun could be the emperor" and let them be and will only have contact with them to get a few hundred troops for the guard every decade or so. Eisenhorn hides for a time on a planet that are in their middle ages, and they dont even know about the Imperium at all.

>>29333106
>Socialist utopia where "currency and personal property is a thing of the past"
>sold

I hate Gene Roddenberry so much for pushing that socialist agenda down everyone's throats. It almost makes me like JJ Abrams re imagined series better because it's turning out to be a more realistic depiction of how humanity would end up joining the galactic community.

>>29332926
>but isn't the general gist of it that even mid-size capital ships in the Imperial Navy are centuries old junkers held together by patchwork and the Emperor's will?
Basically yeah, though it should be noted that the Emperor's will does matter, as he is what stabilises the Warp us Humans.

>And that manufacture of even a single ship can take an equal amount of centuries an entire world's resources with it
Time yes, resources I don't think so, but I can't remember.

>>29333080
Defiant, Constellation, and Prometheus were all designed as Warships. And once Roddenberry died they started going their own direction. To be honest, they couldn't have strayed much away from his wishes just because the lore had been so well established by that point.

>>29333143
I don't remember before his death, but after they definitely had a capitalist system, just a post-scarcity one. And honestly, I don't really mind his socialist stuff too much, just because they've departed away from it so much by this point. If they had kept it his way, I don't think the series would have been as successful.

[spoiler]I still would have watched it though[/spoiler]

>>29332908
>Yes

I wasn't thinking about travel or anything, just resource, numbers, tech, and the like, and I was thinking a shorter war, but yeah, you're right. In an expanded conflict, EVE would most certainly win, the only realistic chance the Imperium would have is EVE not noticing they're about to be attacked.

If you lined up all of the imperium's ships on one side of a solar system and EVE's ships on another I'd have to give it to IoM if only because their fleet would create a black hole and crush Eve's fleet.

However, when you include territory and logistics then EVE can take the Imperium on piecemeal and the Imperium can't build ships that fast.

oh, and props for debating properly.

>>29333177
Check em'
>If they had kept it his way, I don't think the series would have been as successful.

I agree. Just imagine how horrible the series would be with Transgender doctors trying to tell Ensigns that they're cis scum for referring to that alien over there as a HE or SHE when there are only two genders but their soceity may identify as one or more of hundreds.

Imagine the horror as Riker walks in on the now Gay LaForge plowing a Young Wesley Crusher while Picard Protests but Deanna Troi says "BOY LOVE IS OKAY YOU RACIST BIGOT!"

Just imagine how horribly he would have latched on to the current SJW trend and pushed it in everyone's faces.

>>29333087
>>29333143
Yeah okay, you're basically right. They could have no real knowledge of what's going on.

>IIRC There are many ways to worship the Emperor within the imperium and they are kind of loose on the rules.
Not sure about that, since you can be heresied whenever, but there definitely are different varieties of worship and tenets.

Just on the size of regiments, in 40k, they range from a few hundred, to tens of thousands, but I imagine small worlds give less.

>>29333204
>If you lined up all of the imperium's ships on one side of a solar system and EVE's ships on another I'd have to give it to IoM if only because their fleet would create a black hole and crush Eve's fleet.
kek

>oh, and props for debating properly.
Thank you!

>>29333204
Okay now how about IoM vs Imperial Empire?

Points for IoM
>Mary Sue Ships and Troops
>Many millions of worlds
>many millions of ships

Minus for IoM
>Astronomically high Rate of Attrition
>Not easily replaceable front line weapons and troops.
>Abysmal Logistics and FTL Travel
>Refusal to Adapt, Change, Forge Alliances and adapt to new tactics/beliefs to win the day

Points for Imperial Empire
>Highly advanced and continually advancing technology
>fuckhuge death weapons that wipe out planets with a single blast
>Incredibly coordinated and logistically inclined, Strong Emphasis on surgical strikes and advanced tactics when surrounded and or outnumbered.
>Very precise and accurate FTL travel.

Cons for Empire
>Less powerful warships/troops
>No Sense of Loyalty to their Empire ad they are not as heavily indoctrinated.
>Fewer Elite/OP Troops and Ships
>Very Fragile Economy.

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>>29332114
is this chart accurate?

>>29333216
Sadly, it's not too late for any of that. If the trend continues and they reboot the show again...I do remember a fun moment when the Enterprise had dinner with Klingons and started started talking to them about 'Human rights' and the Klingons got unhappy.

>magine the horror as Riker walks in on the now Gay LaForge plowing a Young Wesley Crusher while Picard Protests but Deanna Troi says "BOY LOVE IS OKAY YOU RACIST BIGOT!"
Do SJWs actually defend sex with minors? I haven't seen that and now I'm scared.

>Just imagine how horribly he would have latched on to the current SJW trend and pushed it in everyone's faces.
While I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, that probably would have happened.

>>29333254
>dat voth city ship

Why were the dinosaurs such assholes?

also

>The Fucking City Invasion ship.

I want someone to remake this chart with the 1/4 moon sized mother ship. on it becuase I'm pretty sure that thing is on the same scale as the death star

>>29333254
I posted a link to a size res version here

>>29332269

>>29333177
You say that but the show shoots itself in the foot by saying the following in almost every series:

"Under the New World Economy, material needs and money no longer existed and humanity had grown out of its infancy. People were no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things, effectively eliminating hunger and the want for possessions. The challenge and driving force then were to self-improvement, self-enrichment and the betterment of all humanity."

Humanity will never do this.

Want and desire will always exist and we will always trade something for it?

Commander riker wants to go live in a fucking huge mansion on top of a hill on earth - oh wait what? He can't do that because someone else owns it?!?! Unthinkiable!

If only there were some way for him to convince the current owner of that building to give it to him in exchange for something... hmm... oh well guess I'll just go back to "improving myself and humanity for no gain whatsoever!"

Humans a egocentric at every level. Sure some people have noble intentions but they are always eventually dieted back towards the self. And that's why even in a post scarcity economy Money and Currency and jobs will still be needed.

>>29333250
Just a correction to what you said.

I believe the Imperium has more advanced tech overall, and the Imperium also have stupid huge death weapons that regularly declare exterminatus (planetary destruction) upon planets.

I'm not sure who would win, since the Empire can't build stupid fast and might just get swamped. However, according to random sites, the Empire is lower in numbers. But they might still be able to build faster than the Imperium can. I'd argue the same as with EVE, if the Imperium can get the drop on them they'd win. But they'd lose horribly if the Empire had a sizable warning, which they would do to the millenia that would take the Imperium to gather its forces.

>>29333250
Actually....

The imperial soldier is very will indoctrinated. Imperial Stormtroopers cannot be bribed or blackmailed according to old literature.

I don't see how their economy is "fragile" when it was robust enough to shit out a second 900 km diameter Death Star in 6 months-2 years and the empire was able to hide it from everyone.

That would be like America building up a 1,000 nuke arsenal and congress and the treasury not knowing anything about it (remember the imperial senate existed until episode 4, where the first Death Star showed up.)

The First Order in TFA amounted to nazi holdouts in Argentina who built a working MIRV nuke.

The confederacy of independent system fielded massive trillion-large robot armies even though they were basically a union made of Apple, Google, General Dynamics, Goldman Sachs, Exxon, Lockheed Martin, and Smith and Wesson.

I would argue that on most decent Star Wars worlds the economy is doing fantastic. Most of what we see are the really shitty backwaters. Naboo is considered a middle of nowhere one stoplight town by Star Wars standards, Tatooine basically doesn't exist.

I concede that the imperium wins on the ground, but in space you run into logistics, both repair wise (the empire knows how to build and repair its shit) and delivery wise (they don't need to worry about missing a delivery due to the chaos that is warhammer ftl). Also manufacturing wise (galaxy-theater size invasion forces were made quickly in both the Clone Wars and post-clone war eras, not to mention other violent times in the galaxy).

And we all know logistics win wars.

The topic has been done to death, usually it comes down to dick waving.

>>29333250
I'd go with IoM in a protracted war simply because the Empire doesn't have the psychology to face religious fanatics on equal terms.

On the other end of the spectrum, Imperium ships are large and more durable than Imperial ships.

>>29333343
But desu the galactic Empire does Base Delta Zeros, reducing a planet to molten slag. That can be done by a single star destroyer, so it's not unprecedented in Star Wars. Not to mention if best Star Wars tech breaks, they just build another, tech isn't just "lost" (see Death Star, Death Star 2, and Starkiller base).

I think the imperium a biggest flaw is shit tier organization, travel, communications, and logistics.

And that will lose you a war fast.

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>>29333106
No the Defiant is definitely billed, in universe, as something its not. It's the showrunners way of tipping their hat to Gene's established canon. You and I know (and her actual crew in universe) The Defiant was a purpose built warship but 'The Federation doesn't build warships' is treated as in universe truth too so for propaganda purposes The Defiant is marketed as fulfilling other roles (escort/recon).

So both in universe and in real life, what The Defiant is made more palatable to people.

>>29333315
I think your analysis is wrong. What they describe is essentially a post-scarcity society. People still want and get things, they always will. Picard's family owns a vineyard, Sisko's dad runs a restaurant, people still gamble (seen at least in Riker going to Quark's), Data has a cat, they still collect art (just seen around the ships).

I think what they mean is more that people no longer feel the NEED for possessions, not want. I agree the system they have is poorly described and contradictory, but they still have elements of capitalism. I don't know how their system works, but people do still have wants, and they do get to own property.
And from what I can see, that quote only appears in TNG and its movies.

>>29333315

>implying Rikers desire goes past titties

>>29333387
>But desu the galactic Empire does Base Delta Zeros, reducing a planet to molten slag. That can be done by a single star destroyer, so it's not unprecedented in Star Wars.
I hadn;t heard that, but that's pretty nifty. It definitely equals the playing field more.

>>29333427
Everyone in the Federation gets equal tits of equal size.

Why do you think Riker tries so hard to go out of his way to find a woman outside of Earth who has nice big tits and wants to walk around naked all the time and fuck like a rabbit?

>>29333427
H-he likes jazz too!

[spoiler]Still that scene where he pushed of the girl and then went off to masturbate in the holodeck...[/spoiler]

>>29333435
All tits are equal, but some are more equal than others.

>>29333414
The central conceit of Trek is that technology gets better and better, so things that are mass produced and rationalized get cheaper and more abundant. So there's a post-scarcity economy where anyone can replicate any kind of consumer goods he wants.Energy is abundant enough that people have unrestricted access to consumer-grade replicators. Under the circumstances nobody needs to work to survive and there's really no point in maintaining a cash economy. But by definition improved technology can't increase the efficiency of historical production techniques. If the promise of Sisko's is a home-cooked New Orleans meal, then Sisko's can't partake in the post-scarcity economy. Similarly, you can replicate wine in unlimited quantities but a Chateau Picard vintage is by definition a scarce commodity. People appear to operate these businesses for roughly the same reason that Starfleet officers cruise around the galaxy—for a sense of personal fulfillment rather than enrichment. The Federation has clearly acted so as to prevent the existence of any kind of meaningful banking system, and though various mediums of exchange seem to be floating around there isn't enough stuff for sale for people to really focus on it as an issue.

Socialism. Bread and Circus.

>>29329453
>70 megatons
every single time they use them it's like firing a BB at a cornflake box. Sometimes it make a little hole, sometimes it does jack shit.

>>29329453
Star Trek's damage yeilds are all over the fucking map so there is no reliable canon to tell you what any given torpedo or phaser will do.

One day they will say a photon torpedo can wipe out an entire continent and next they will say it can't even obliterate a single hardened building.

That's why

>>29333414
The problem is that they say they've discarded money as a concept which throws the entire concept of economy into the shitter.

Jake Sisko actually tried to borrow money from Nog at one point because he technically didn't have any money.

>>29331317
Found the 'Merican

>>29333519
Gene Roddenberry is just a shit writer with no concept of how a society with abundance would work.

In essence it's a "mostly" post-scarcity economy but it's heavily socialized because of the sheer abundance of resources.

what do the producers of scarce goods do? Well, presumably they're giving a lot of stuff away. Friends and family get bottles of wine. Perhaps you send a case or two to some particularly admired athletes or scientists or other heroes. Maybe artisan wine just isn't that popular in general. And maybe you barter some bottles for other artisan goods. Maybe you have a friend who hand-carves furniture. But at its most fundamental level, it's a gift economy. The point of running your restaurant or your vineyard is essentially to show off your mastery, not accumulate wealth. There may be some more-or-less formal exchanges, but the key point is to get the output into people's hands and not work so hard as to make yourself miserable.
We can imagine that Federation Credits exist primarily to let people consume government-provided by scarce resources. Housing, interstellar transportation, child and elder care, energy-intensive capital goods for your hobby/business. This is not a currency per se. It exists to ensure that there isn't wild over consumption of goods that are nevertheless intended to be generally available. The Federation probably also uses them to facilitate transactions with other cultures. A non-Federation individual or organization who performs some useful service gets "Credits" entitling him to claim Federation energy or logistical services in the future. Despite official propaganda to the contrary, these credits do circulate as a kind of money in private society, at least from what I can tell in the shows.

>>29333473
The Tsar Bomba was a mere 50 megatons and the entire planet felt that.

>>29333466
No, replicators ARE limited, you're not allowed to make just anything with them, this is seen throughout the series in various forms (requiring payment on stations, not having enough credits to get a special item (TNG), having too much of an item and being denied another, etc).

While I agree people mostly operate vineyards and restaurants, and such, out of desire mainly, they do attract business, which contradicts your point, and the simple fact that they are OWNED does as well. Furthermore, we know there are people who own and operate their own ships, providing a personnel and cargo transport service.

>>29333519
They do have money actually, it's the credit. They talk about it quite often really, investments, purchases, etc. It does exist.
And socialism implies a centrally planned economy, which Star Trek most certainly does not have. And as I'm doing research, the post-scarcity argument actually seem to apply mainly to core-worlds, as famine still occurs elsewhere.

>>29333434
Yep it's an interesting footnote
>whole planet made molten to a minimum of 1 meter to sterilize all life

>>29333535
This guy gets it

I think the best description for what they have is something we haven't developed yet. They DO have capitalist tendencies, and they definitely have socialist ones, but they aren't full on either (especially with capitalism obviously).

I remember a description that describes it fairly well, it's a 'proto-post scarcity society evolved from democratic capitalism'