Gungrabbjng counter arguments

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Bumpin with 2A pics

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Some more

>>28082469
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/

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>>28082469
This is really the best counterargument to gun grabbers, ironically.

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>>28082469
Modest dump, incoming.

>>28083830
>Implying the US has sensible gun laws anywhere

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>>28083870

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>>28083886

>>28083875
That's the point.
>hey guys, gun control works!
>right after her heavily gun controlled state has a mass murder

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>>28083890

>>28083815
hey wait this doesn't support my echo chamber!

>>28083892
Obviously the mass murderer managed to use a state-sanctioned 0.07mm ball point assault pistol instead of an illegaly-obtained automatic weapon. WE CAN'T HAVE ANY WEAPONS AT ALL, GUISE, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY CRIMINALS FOLLOW THE LAW.

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>>28083897

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>>28083908

>>28083907
Maybe we're just looking at it from different perspectives. If I saw that, I'd think "wow, this cunt is dumb as bricks. Her heavily gun controlled state had a mass shooting. Gun control sure as hell doesn't work after all."

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>>28083916

>>28083815
>whole time it repeats "more guns more homicide"
Kinda obvious, ain't it? Also funny how it rarely states firearm-related homicide.

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>>28083923

>>28083923
This is a retarded image that is needlessly confrontational, but kek at the AR-24 being a CZ clone

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>>28083928

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>>28083932

>>28083923
If you have to get that basic with a grabber, then you're already pissing into the wind.

>>28083923
AR, as in AR-15, stands for Armalite Rifle.

That image is retarded.

>>28083917
Just trying to bring sarcasm in the mix. Also, are there any sources on illegal guns used in crimes? Because I think people always assume that every mass shooter legally buys their guns (which wouldn't be supra sing due to the current media narrative).
On that subject, what did they use in that mass shooting that just happened?

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>>28083936

>>28083940
That's the whole point Captain Obvious.

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>>28083946

>>28083946
>That's the whole point Captain Obvious.
Then why didn't the image actually make that point by clarifying what AR actually means?

>>28083870
Please stop posting this, it's so wrong.

>>28083954
How so?

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>>28083951

>>28083899
Right?

>>28083924
So, it's worth reading the cited papers, is what you're saying?

>>28083830
Honestly, they just say that if guns were completely banned, this wouldn't happen.

Or something something about the guns coming from Nevada or something.

>>28083961
The pictures are pretty, but if you check the sources you'll find that the info language is misleading, misused, and full of logical fallacies.

>>28083908
nigga this isn't even 'bout guns get that /pol/ shit outta here

>>28083946
dafuq was going on in '03?

>>28084019
That was when they finally stopped illegal handguns from coming into the country. That's the year handguns were REALLY banned, and criminals couldn't get them. Enforcement of a law generally lags behind when it's passed by a few years. The homicide rate increased because only bad guys had guns, then fell when everyone was disarmed. Now you can see it's at a very acceptable level.

>>28083974
Probably. I was just reading through the article and it just kept repeating that.

Firearm Self Defense Use

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/

>>28082469
Black k/d: 1.16
White k/d: 0.548

What about Asians?

>>28082469
It's difficult to argue against a reduction in circulating firearms from a public health standpoint. This leaves you in the land of ideology, rhetoric, and public opinion.

What's that one where the one dude did the math , and it said if you weren't a gang member or suicidal you were .000000something likely to be shot.

>>28082469
gunfacts.info

Dammit. I just realized when my hdd crashed and I lost all my /k/ shut posting pics, I lost my gun fact info graphics as well. I appreciate any dumps to help rebuild.

Policy Evaluations

>States with more gun control laws have lower levels of firearm homicide and firearm suicide.
>Fleegher, Eric W; Lee, Lois K; Monuteaux, Michael C; Hemenway, David; Mannix, Rebekah. Firearm legislation and firearm-related fatalities in the United States. JAMA-Internal Medicine. 2013; 173:732-40.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/policy-evaluation/

>>28084034
how are the knife attacks?

>>28083815
So Chicago should have almost no gun crime, or at least less gun crime than comparable cities with lenient gun control.

Oh wait that's not true!

I will gun you down if you dare to try and rob me of my guns

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>>28084034
>Now you can see it's at a very acceptable level.


>too many homicides! we must ban guns!
>guns banned
>homicide rate exactly the same

>This is acceptable

>>28084207
>State level study
>City level claim

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>>28083815

>>28083953
Because gun grabbers don't care. They'll just go "nuh uh, it means salt rifle"

>>28084189
Seeing that states with more gun control laws often have a higher median income and lower gun ownership rates, this isn't surprising. It would be interesting to see how the gun policies actually effected people's actions.

>>28084271
Actually, that dip is attributed to reduced national alcohol use and an improvement in economic conditions. But, if you insist, here are some more charts for you to play with! http://www.tylervigen.com

>>28084314
then even by the information you just stated, gun supply plays no part.

also

>[citation needed]

thanks for playing

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>but all I get is liberal articles

There's a reason for that.

>>28084314
>an improvement in economic conditions.

>2008, homicide takes a sharp downturn

ok pal

>>28084310
The papers are all available for free, or a small fee. Its worth noting that between high income countries the US stands out as having more guns, and more homicides (firearm related and other.)

>>28084336
I was referring to states, not countries. Comparisons between countries are a lot more difficult, as crime is reported differently. This is clearly seen in the "violent crime rate" difference between the US and Britain.

>>28084335
>Disregarding multiple elements (alcohol usage, police presence/tactics, environmental factors.)
>Focusing on the one that's not fully understood academically

Right on, bro!

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>>28084362
>still hasnt posted citations

those are some hot OPINIONS bro

>>28084325
For that, we go to the international level. America remains a leader in high income nations for firearms deaths.

Richardson, Erin G; Hemenway, David. Homicide, suicide and unintentional firearm fatality: comparing the United States with other high-income countries, 2003. Journal of Trauma, 2011; 70:238-43.

Also noted, more guns = more violent deaths.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Firearms and violent death in the United States. In: Webster DW, Vernick JS, eds. Reducing Gun Violence in America Baltimore MD: Johns Hopkins University Press, 2013.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/overall/

>>28084373
More police: http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittUnderstandingWhyCrime2004.pdf

Police tactics (using computers, mostly): https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/publications/What_Caused_The_Crime_Decline.pdf

Alcohol use in crime: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ac.pdf

Happy reading!

>>28084377
>America remains a leader in high income nations for firearms deaths.
61% of those deaths being suicides, which has no correlation to gun availability as
>>28084271
and
>http://www.gunfacts.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/AVAILABILITY-OF-GUNS-International-Suicide-and-Firearm-Ownership-Rates.png
shows
>Also noted, more guns = more violent deaths.
http://www.gunfacts.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/GUNS-IN-OTHER-COUNTRIES-Firearm-Ownership-and-Homicides-Rates-per-Country.png

>>28084389
and even if all of this info is the direct cause of the decline, all it serves to prove is the gun supply plays no part in it and is an inconsequential detail.

>>28084422
>61% of those deaths being suicides, which has no correlation to gun availability

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/risk/
>Every study that has examined the issue to date has found that within the U.S., access to firearms is associated with increased suicide risk.

>>28084443
>combating hard data with harvard 'well i think this so im right'

were done here

>>28084434
Several dozen Phd's and I disagree. Please see the academic literature.

>>28084443
http://www.gunfacts.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/AVAILABILITY-OF-GUNS-International-Suicide-and-Firearm-Ownership-Rates.png

>>28084459
you cant have it both ways, either the other outside factors are the cause of the decline in homicide or the increase in gun supply is.

either way all you are proving is that either more guns prevent homicide or they dont play a factor at all.

>>28084450
Should I take that to mean that you're out of arguments and have resorted to ad hominem attacks, or did you just miss the half dozen citations at the bottom of the page?

>>28084389
>>28084314
>Alcohol
Are you completely ignoring the crackdown on Cocaine and it's sale/distribution?

>>28084470
which are all links to peoples opinions.

all the other links here refuting you are links to the DOJ and WHO with actual numbers, which you are blatantly ignoring

>>28084467
If you're basing all of this off that one chart then I think you need to broaden your understanding of the issue and the various methodologies used in linking these elements.

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>>28084487
>all these mental gymnastics to try and avoid hard data

>>28084485
>That's just their opinion
Ok! I think we're all done for the evening, feel free to read the cited sources and note where they get their 'actual numbers' from. Also, might help to brush up on the concept of an 'expert.'

>>28084487
>If you're basing all of this off that one chart
http://www.gunfacts.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/AVAILABILITY-OF-GUNS-Homicide-In-England-and-Wales-pre-post-1968-Gun-Control-act.png

http://www.gunfacts.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/GUNS-AND-CRIME-PREVENTION-Rape-Rate-in-England-and-Wales-before-and-after-major-gun-control-acts.png

http://www.gunfacts.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/GUNS-IN-OTHER-COUNTRIES-U.K.-Violent-Crime-and-Firearm-Ownership-Rates-Before-and-After-1997.png

http://www.gunfacts.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/GUNS-IN-OTHER-COUNTRIES-U.K.-Violent-Crime-Rates-1982-through-2010-covering-gun-control-acts-in-1998-and-1997-revised.png

http://www.gunfacts.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/GUNS-IN-OTHER-COUNTRIES-Homicide-Rates-for-Top-Ten-Countries-Plus-United-States.png

>>28084495
$20 on the table you couldn't tell me what hard data is, let alone how to find it. If you'd like to dismiss more than a dozen research papers on these subjects without even reading them that is entirely your own privilege.

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>>28084501
>the Department of Justice and World Health organisation are not reputable resources

>>28084514
>Implying cited papers didn't use same sources
Stacking numbers together is easy, establishing a link is hard. There's easily several hours of reading here, so goodnight!

>>28084514
Who?

>>28084510
http://www.tylervigen.com

Maybe try slogging through the non-graphical based research instead?

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>>28084540
>no rebuttal

>>28084544
Oh, that was a point? Five charts plus one? No analysis, methodology, conclusions, or review? That's not a point to be rebutted, that's a graphical representation of data.

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>>28084536

Jesus christ, this whole thread is hilarious.

Practically everyone posting ITT got btfo by one guy and his links to Harvard-published studies.

That impotent rage as you're unable to counter actual studies. Nobody even brought up that they were all funded by groups devoted to reducing gun ownership. I'd hate to see how any of you idiots do in a real debate.

Honestly, it's pretty obvious that getting rid of all things designed as weapons would reduce the murder rate. That doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do. Many other options and programs exist that have repeatedly been shown to reduce homicide. Social intervention to create positive outcomes instead of restricting the actions of all law-abiding citizens. It's quite clear that a society can have guns, and also be peaceful. Creating a more equal balance of power between the ruling and the ruled (they're not the same, even in democracy). Equalizing citizens - allowing those that aren't as physically capable to defend themselves from those that are. Providing a last line of defense against foreign occupation (this fits into equalizing the ruling and the ruled).

There's a lot of ideological reasons to protect gun rights. The effect of societal factors on murder and suicide rates are significantly more important than the presence of guns in society. If you take away the means, people tend to find a way. If you take away the motivation, they have no reason to.

Just stop denying the facts - it doesn't reflect well on gun owners.

>>28082469
The gun grabbers are grasping at straws so fucking hard someone came up with a mass shooting list of 2015, but look at item #345 its the BLM self defense shooting being listed...

http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015

>>28084736
>unable to counter actual studies
>All funded by groups devoted to reducing gun ownership

Not that I don't enjoy a good paranoid ramble, but did you have anything to back this up? Or anything else you wrote? I mean, personal sovereignty is nice and all, but can you support any of that beyond rhetoric?

Here's an edit to a Pastebin I wrote. It's an in depth analysis of why gun laws have no impact on crime. Only uses very simple FBI data and clearly lays out arguments to refute most anti gun claims.

http://pastebin.com/6hx6KiWe

Last time I posted this on /k/ it got very good reception and screencaps! This time I've adjusted the diction and the numbers have been corrected due to typos, but actually work out more favorably as such.

>>28085036
If you were in 10th grade I'd give you a C. It would have been a C+, but DC isn't a state. You should know that.

>>28084253

>Liberal Logic

>>28082469
facts are racist, dont you know that?

>>28082469
That's because "gun violence" is a term that liberals made up. Try "violent crime" or "intentional homicide" and just search government crime databases, like the FBI, directly.

>>28082469
fuck off, gun control discussions are /pol/

>>28084443
And?

Suicide is a human right. I want a painless and quick method of excercising that right.

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>>28085345
I'm talking about rates of violent crime per 100,000 people between different regions that are governed in fashions indicative of states, the data stands effectively.

2/10 made me reply

>>28085345
>>28086171
Oh, and of course, I am referencing the FBI's chart for state by state analysis in which they also assign DC as a jurisdiction deserving to be treated as a state in the analysis.

I'd give you an F in s/k/ool because that stands for "Faggot".

>>28084443
Numerous nations have distinctly higher suicide rates with lower firearms availability.

Maybe you should worry more about why people are so unhappy than sitting content knowing they it's OK people are miserable so long that can't end it.

>>28085908
Fuck you. That's like saying that you can't talk about copyright laws on /a/.

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>>28084176
"I don't believe that taking people's guns away is any kind of solution. Every minute that's ticking by these people are seeking targets to shoot. You have to get in and basically put more lead in the air then they got," said Chief Jeff Heppler of the Galesburg Police Department.

>>28086534
oh yeah, source:

http://www.wwmt.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/West-Michigan-weighs-in-on-gun-debate-following-San-Bernardino-238883.shtml

>>28084789
If you look at the bottom of the pages, you'll notice that they're funded by Means Matter, whose stated goal is reducing access to lethal means (generally meaning firearms, because nobody is going to ban rope or knives/razors or over-the-counter drugs).

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/

The rest is referencing the political ideology on which this nation was founded, which is enshrined in the consitution. You're asking for me to provide a defense for personal sovereignty even when it's not in the interest of public health. I was never arguing that guns have a positive impact on public health, as some have argued here. I'll state it simply.
1. Guns generally have a negative effect on public health
2. The effect of guns on public health are low (though higher than in some countries)
3. There are effective ways to mitigate the public health effects of gun ownership that do not significantly restrict gun rights

If you want references for programs that reduce the murder rate and suicide rate without significant restrictions on personal liberty, I can provide them. If you'd like the reasoning behind the second amendment, and the political purpose of that, I can provide that as well.

>>28082469
Do you want studies that are begging the question or already agree with your existing stance? That is the wrong way to look for a study. Look for credibility and academic honesty. If you hear or read something you disagree with and find no reason to question the integrity of the research, writing, or author, then you should change your opinion.

Am I saying anyone is necessarily wrong or right? No. I can't tell that till I actually read what they did.

You can't just assume you are right or come to the right conclusion if all you read are things that confirm your own opinion.

No, I don't want to take your guns, I'm just trying to promote intellectual honesty. It's like, good science man.

>>28083975
I hate that shit
you can't buy handguns here and that is what most crimes are used with

I fucking hate california

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A common anti-gun tactic is to argue that MORE GUNS = MORE DEATHS. While it almost seems like common sense, be careful because it is actually extremely misleading. While it's true that more guns per capita leads to more GUN deaths, it does NOT mean that there are more murders or violent crimes in general! Basically criminals just have more access to guns and they choose to commit crimes with them, instead of resorting to lead pipes or whatever Britbong Jamal found laying around the house.

Pic related. The article in question was basically LOOK HOW MANY GUNS ARE IN AMERICA! NOW LOOK HOW THERE ARE MORE GUN DEATHS AS A RESULT! Yes, of course there are more gun deaths. If lasers someday outmode guns in utilitarian hurtiness then we would start seeing a rise in laser-related deaths instead of guns or knives or blunt weapons. Yet violent crime rates will not be affected. You can combat this misleading argument by doing what I did and asking them to provide proof that more guns per capita leads to more crime. It doesn't, and you can't.

Another common argument is that guns lead to accidental gun deaths which wouldn't happen if guns were banned. Sure, but so do swimming pools, which in fact kill 6 times as many people annually as guns. You don't see pools being banned. You could also counter this by claiming that guns clearly save more lives through self-defense so the impact of owning guns is actually a net positive.

To be fair the only fair argument against the ubiquity of guns in society is that people are able to commit suicide much more efficiently with a gun than through other methods. But really, if I was going to off myself I would like the peace of mind knowing that my chosen method would work as close to 100% as possible.

>>28084008
A majority of felonious gun use are linked to the very people that are the subject of that infographic.

>>28084736
>one samefag posting the same shit over and over again
>btfo
I guess.
I mean, I'm not particularly interested in the conversation.
Gun-grabbers can say what they please or pass whatever laws, doesn't matter to me until the laws are enforced.
Good luck with enforcement when a large number of po-dunks have made quite clear their refusal to enforce gun control laws, and good luck when there are gun owners who would just as soon die in a pile of brass before handing over guns.

That's really all that matters. The numbers are great, and they can support either side if you cherry pick enough, but it's all rather academic when it comes down to the implementation and enforcement of the laws.

>>28083946
>>28083940
>>28083953


Except Armalight came out and said it does indeed stand for Automatic Rifle, or at least more specifically, not Armalight rifle.

>>28087911
http://jonathanstray.com/papers/FirearmAvailabilityVsHomicideRates.pdf

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>>28084536

The one on first!

>>28082469
It is kind of dry but the one stop shop for all the facts the whole facts and nothing but the facts is the FBI's Uniform Crime Report which they release yearly.
here is the relevant stats for murder. There are sub-tables for by gun knife bare hands etc as well.

>>28090298
forgot my link
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/murder

>>28090255
>Using Northern Ireland data from 1994
They also said the results aren't significant when you drop the US from the data. Hint: We have a lot of niggers

>>28090755
Internationally
https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/Abstract.aspx?id=206421

State-to-State 1988-1997
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447364/

State-to-State 2001-2003
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277953606004898

>>28090888
Okay, now can you give me a study that wasn't done by the same two goddamn authors (that were probably paid by a the jews)?

>>28090755
From the paper:
> If Northern Ireland is eliminated from the analysis, the results remain statistically significant (not shown).

>Dropping the United States from the analysis, the results remain significant when the Cook index is used (p<0.01) but not when the percentage of suicides with a firearm is used
as the gun proxy (Table 2). The firearm
homicide rate is very strongly associated with the Cook index; the nonfirearm ho-micide rate shows no statistically significant correlation (not
shown)

>>28090940
Drop N Ireland and the US and we'll talk. Also more recent data would be nice. Switzerland dropped to 0.6 and they have the 2nd most guns on the list. Most of those countries have seen their homicide rates fall since fucking 1994, EXCEPT FOR BRITAIN OF COURSE.

>>28091001
They did, you're still wrong.

http://pastebin.com/6hx6KiWe

Folks I literally wrote a Pastebin with all the data you'll ever need for US related discussion. Please read it it's typically been received very well and I think it can help with what you're looking for.

>>28091271
How do you expect this to be "all the data you'll ever need" when you only cover 24% of the states and require the reader "just google" the state firearm laws and regulations?

Here's how the pros do it:
https://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1661390

>>28091545
The links are in the essay. I specifically wrote that you could crunch more numbers yourself with the provided sources and come to the same conclusions.

I have not met any anti guns able to refute the data and points made. I'm glad you gave it a read either way, but I'm not going to a comparison for every state to redundantly drive the point.

>>28082469
>correlations between firearm ownership and firearm homicides
That's because there are none

There is zero correlation between gun ownership and crime, gun crime, deaths, gun deaths, or gun murders.

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>>28091887
>A higher number of firearm laws in a state are associated with a lower rate of firearm fatalities in the state, overall and for suicides and homicides individually.

>>28082676
There is literally no correlation in that image