Does this shit ever get any good? I was told Tsukihime was on

Get to the Satsuki route, it's the best one.

It's part of the official /jp/ canon so be glad you read it regardless of if you enjoyed it

>a shit version of Index
Tsukihime is chuuni just like fate, Higurashi is a magical mistery novel, it's like comparing dies irae to kara no shoujo. Tsukihime has mistery but it's not the main point, that's supposed to be the world view: the creatures, the hierarchy and all those things, if you are not interested in this you won't like Tsukihime.

>>16521881
After Ciel's route

>>16521881
Nope.

When I initially read it, I was relatively new to VNs. At that time, I ended up dropping it because it wasn't interesting enough. I initially dropped Inganock as well when it was released for similar reasons, but after some years had passed and my taste had matured a bit I tried Inganock again and enjoyed it. Figuring the same would be true for Tsukihime, I tried that again as well...but this time around, it was ten times worse as I realized how dull it really is.

The only reason /jp/ loves it is nostalgia. Its translation released at a time when there were practically no other VN translations, and as a result it was their first VN for many readers (and said readers then proceeded to recommend it to others as starter VN). Tsukihime is for the older generation of VN readers what Katawa Shoujo is for the newer generation of VN readers.

You should have read it 15 years ago. Reading it now is like watching NGE 10 years after everyone else.

Wrong time, wrong age, wrong attitude. You're doing it out of obligation.

>>16521881

It's probably for the best you don't like it; with how old it is becoming a fan at this point would only make you wistful.

Just stick to some modern eroge or whatever.

Yeah it's pretty boring.

Why is far side so much better than near side?

Near side is honestly pretty trash.

>>16521881
I just started this
about halfway through Arc's route
I've been enjoying it so far
kinda just trying to get through the first two routes quick because I want to play the Hisui route

>>16521881
No it doesn't.

>>16522155
That and a lot of the reason people liked it and it got so popular is the meme translations like "this chair" spam or "I am the bonebane of my sword" among other nonsense. People used to parrot these sort of things constantly.

>>16522159
But people still discuss NGE whereas Tsukihime fans have to post in Fate threads to find discussion of Tsukihime

>>16522484
>Why is far side so much better than near side?

Because Akiha is best girl

I hated Yume Miru Kusuri, but I liked Tsukihime. Does that mean I have shit taste?

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>>16529522
I approve this post

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>>16529606
>Tfw you will never hug Akiha and have her call you nii-san

Why live?

>>16521881
>comparing Tsukihime to Index
Man, fuck you, you made me slightly irritated.

>>16521881
Just like with F/SN, the first two routes and their heroines are absolute shit made to pander to the very worst casuals, with the good parts coming after that and the best heroine having the final route.

>>16521881
I hated Tsukihime at first, but I ended up enjoying it more after I abandoned my expectations. It's writing isn't "good", but it does have charm if you're into goofy chunnishit. Laugh away at the stupid parts and it makes the VN way my enjoyable as a whole.

>>16525896
>I am the bonebane of my sword
Is that in another route?
I always thought that was from Fate

>>16529618
>Man, fuck you, you made me slightly irritated.
Are you saying that tsukihime is way better than index or index is way better than tsukihime?

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>>16534274
It is from Fate. In case you couldn't tell, that guy is just full of shit.

>>16534274
>tsukihime is way better than index

>>16521881
No. People enjoyed Nasushit for memes.

>>16536274
>memes
That and porn, anon.
because sexy time restores magic power. You'll notice a lot of the newer shit tries to obscure that instead of being as direct about it as the earlier stuff was.
Like when MC gets cucked in the PSP game.

>>16530494
>best heroine
>lies in bed being miserable and then turns into an edgy plot device

Unless you are talking about Rin or Ilya of course. HF is trash but Rin and Ilya still somehow manage to be decent heroines in that route

>>16521881
Arcueid's route is shit-tier as fuck. Ciel's is a bit better, but the game only really gets 10/10 God-tier at Akiha's route onwards.

You're in for a bit more of a slog. Hang in there, and try to appreciate the quirky car engine analogies in the meantime.

>>16522139
I really hate that Fate and Tsukihime just get lumped in with "chuuni" shit just like that. Sure they're chuuni as fuck, but they're definitely better than most of their contemporaries.

>>16542215
>Arcueid's route is shit-tier as fuck.

Why?

>>16548223
Because he didn't like it.

>>16521881
I enjoyed it, but it's really not like it's written especially well or anything.

If you like chuuni it's pretty good chuuni, but it's not... literature.

>>16521881
It's not made with white people in mind.

>>16548352
I'm not OP, but I don't know if you're serious here. Is there really a racial element to this that I'm missing?

>>16548359
Westerners, whites in particular, hate anything fantasy. Why else is their mainstream media so inundated with medical and crime dramas?

>>16548423
Point. I guess this makes me bad at being white.

>>16548423
The fuck are you on?
What is Harry Potter
What is Lord of the Rings
What is Chronicles of Narnia
What is Disney
What is Twilight

>>16548914
All made for Asians now. White people don't care about them besides weebs or neckbeards.

>>16542204
>literally takes out all the villains by herself
Sakura is objectively more useful than Saber and Rin were in their own routes. Rin is absolute shit in HF, because she does nothing but attack and agitate Shirou and Sakura.

>>16548423
>Westerners, whites in particular, hate anything fantasy
what the fuck are you talking about
America literally made the fantasy genre what it is today

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>Arcueid dressed like a grandma when the story is supposed to take place in the year 2000

>>16550090
Who are you quoting?

>>16549829
Are you proud of that?

>>16549289
What are you basing this on? Fantastic Beasts made a couple hundred million in North America alone and was one of the biggest movies in the UK last year. And that's for a Harry Potter spin-off.

>>16549829
>>16550575
>>16551110
Yeah, Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are basically the only big fantasy things here and

frankly, they're awful.

They may be better written than Tsukihime, but the lore of Tsukihime/the Nasuverse is vastly more interesting and less... juvenile.

Seriously, imagine a grown man writing a completely unnuanced Good v Evil story like LotR. Sort of laughable.

>>16551181
>Seriously, imagine a grown man writing a completely unnuanced Good v Evil story like LotR. Sort of laughable.
You're a faggot.
LotR isn't about the Valar. It's about hobbits and men.
You can have unbiased and absolute Zoroastrian-esque good and evil in a story and still have it be include mature or meaningful themes. You just can't make your Glorious Golden Good Guys to be the protagonists, the war of Really Good and Really Evil has to be in the background, the stage set for ambiguous free-willed individuals to find their place in. If the Bloody Black Bad Bastards ever come up, it's because they're making a threat on the Morally Muddled Mortals who the story is actually about.

>>16551239
That's not really my point. My point is that the lore is shit.

You can have morally muddled men and shorter, hairier men all day, but that doesn't make your lore any less childish, unimaginative rubbish.

>>16551181
>but the lore of Tsukihime/the Nasuverse is vastly more interesting
Nah I find nasuverse extremely boring compared to something like LOTR and its worldbuilding. In fact for me its a joke to even begin comparing.

Traditional Christian mythology is about good and evil and traditional Japanese mythology is about gods who are individuals and often assholes to each other, it comes with the heritage.

The latter obviously makes for a more interesting story but it doesn't necessarily make it any better written.

>>16551258
You can talk about worldbuilding all day, but when pretty much every 'race' you have is basically just humans + random physical quirk, it doesn't mean much.

>>16551181
>frankly, they're awful.
Great, that's not what we're talking about here. The topic was "Do Westerners hate fantasy." If you want to talk about the quality of these works, take it to a thread that cares.

>>16551279
>good and evil
Ripped straight from Zoroastrianism.

>>16551350
Well, as the point of them being awful is that their fantasy elements and lore are underimaginative and essentially amount to a poorly developed backdrop, I think it's abundantly relevant to the discussion.

>>16551396
The discussion of what?

>>16551399
Why Tsukihime is good at what it does and worth looking at.

>>16551377
Not even, actually. Traditionally in christian mythos, Lucifer is not some great and powerful dark master. Lucifer is actually trivially weak, even the lowliest commoner can ignore his influence, his war against God lost the second it started. Everyone can kick him in the face, because he is a loser.

While Ahriman/Angra Mainyu similarly is fated to lose against Ahura Mazda/Spenta Mainyu, that's more a matter of predestination rather than not being a threat. Angra Mainyu is every destructive impulse across the entire spectrum of reality, and has ten trillion kills to his name.


The sexy, powerful, Anti-God Super Satan is something relatively new and made up by fiction, and isn't really that Christian at all. (Traditionally, Satan is a title, not a person, too.)

>>16551409
You aren't even discussing the merits of Tsukihime, other than the fact that "it's not Western fantasy, which is childish and cheap." That's not a conversation which is going to end up primarily about Tsukihime.

>>16551396
Even if what you're saying is true, it's still completely irrelevant. You know who Tsukihime appeals to in Japan? Anime nerds and lorefags. You know who Tsukihime appeals to in America? Anime nerds and lorefags. It's not like your run of the mill normalfag in Japan is sitting on a hidden encyclopedic knowledge of the Holy Grail War and Dead Apostles. Even though our heritages are different, at the end of the day, Tsukihime appeals to the same type of person on both sides of the world, so discussing the "quality" of popular fantasies is still irrelevant.

>>16551424
We could go on about Tsukihime, but I don't want to spoil too much.

It's mostly good at introducing different powers and types of beings and making them intrinsically relevant to the story. In many ways, the story is more about the powers and nature of the world and life than it is about the characters involved--the characters become players who act through the framework of a world very much unlike our own, and how things turn out is mostly about who best understands the rules and is both willing and able to use them to their advantage.

I like that.

>>16551468
>We could go on about Tsukihime, but I don't want to spoil too much.
That's what spoiler tags are for, friend. Anyone who hovers over the tag only has themselves to blame.

>>16551416
I was talking about a more rudimentary level. Historians believe that right after the Jews made contact with Persians who practiced (some form) of Zoroastrianism, duality popped into Judaism.

>>16529515
Mainly because Tsukihime is ded whereas NGE had its "remake" and Fate is still in the game with Grand Order.

>>16551181
>>16551249
You're aretard. LoTR only looks that way to you because it's what the majority of fantasy, both Western and Japanese mund you, draws its influence from, either directly or indirectly through other works influenced heavily by it. There was no such thing "lore" when Tolkien developed an entire language and history for his made-up world, which was itself a setting for rather good literature. The whole concept comes from him.

And nobody claims Harry Potter is high-class speculative fiction. There are plenty of well-renowned western fantasy authors that you likely have simply never heard of because you're a wapanese uninterested in western literature who wants to act like he has read more than five books and played more than three VNs in his life, but is too illiterate and uninformed to put on a convincing act.

>>16553192
You really tried to eviscerate me there. Tried so hard.

Literally every folk myth in the history of humankind would like a word with you, by the way. Bullshit stories with fantastical elements are nothing new, and the greats have been building whole worlds around them for thousands of years. What Tolkien did was blatantly imitative of what came before him, and in most cases he took what came before and made it overly simplistic and bland.

And that is why it was successful. Easily digestible rubbish.

And regardless, I've probably written more 'white person spec fic' than you've read.

>>16553215
>hentai vampire novel is better than the book that literally started the Fantasy genre
this your brain on anime

>>16553215
Either you're lying or you've read sn awful lot of fanfiction. I refuse to believe someone even remotely familiar with VNs and paper novels seriously is unable to differentiate between mythology and purposeful literature. A simple plotline does not a bad book make, and in fact most myths, even the few which were written down, have incredibly simple plotlines and one-dimensional characters. Name your incredibly imaginative historical fantasy writers. Homer? Virgil? Ferdowsi? They all wrote stories heavily derivative of the religion around them, with only basic personal fabrications, whereas Tolkien, an anthropologist and linguist, used his knowledge of these same sorts of works to create his own completely independent setting, that is, one that does not need to lean on ours to be understood. This is not to mention the Biblical allusions, post-Victorian allegory, and political themes. Only Virgil comes remotely close, and even he does not do a fraction of what Tolkien does.

That's all beside the point though. The fact is that Japanese fantasy fiction is far more derivative and exploitative in general than Western, though they are both rife with that problem. This does not make it bad, but to compare Nasu's wish-fulfilling waifubait to any serious piece of literature is disingenuous. I like a lot of Type-Moon stuff too, but you are a delusional idiot.

>>16556446
>Tolkien did was blatantly imitative of what came before him
>Easily digestible rubbish
Can any other fanbase possibly be this delusional?

>>16556446
You literally just agreed that it was imitative. All you said he did special was put a lot more time and effort into it.

You can put time and effort into anything and end up with something truly impressive in scale, but that doesn't mean the content is good. Quality vs. quantity, and Tolkien is all quantity.

I also don't care for Shakespeare or the Beatles, if you want to rage at me some more.

>>16556731
>I also don't care for Shakespeare or the Beatles
ooh look at you mr contrarian
>it was imitative
and tsukihime isn't?
The concepts of vampires and mages were already pretty well established
meanwhile there was nothing like elves or orcs in Tolkein's time

>>16556797
Elves and orcs were derived from existing myth. Why does it seem like I know more about this than you?

Also, elves and orcs are pretty much indistinguishable from humans except for cosmetic, physical, and cultural differences. They're about on par with Star Trek aliens, which are also largely not proper aliens at all.

>>16556872
>Why does it seem like I know more about this than you?
You do know more about it than me. Your opinion is still wrong

>>16556731
derivative =/= imitative
words have meanings, and using them without knowing the meanings makes you look dumb

>>16557382
I meant imitative.

His creatures and 'races' were derivative, yees. His overall lore was imitative--of traditional folklore and myth. I stand by this assertion.

>>16556484
The only thing this thread is achieving is making sure nobody takes Tsukihime fans seriously ever again.

>>16523965
I just have finished the Hisui route and holy shit.

>>16557738
You need to stop samefagging. Onegai.

>>16529612
Akiha is a miracle

>>16557857
does it get better?

>>16557864
I'm the one who told you about fifty posts ago that tangents about Western fantasy have absolutely fuck-all to do with this thread but here you are again, militantly trying to beat a controversial topic to death in an unrelated thread.

>>16557886
Akiha and Hisui route are insane.

>>16551181
Mate I enjoyed Tsukihime but you're seriously a delusional weeb if you think Tsukihime has better world-building than LotR. My eyes glazed over whenever the vampire lore was explained, it's barely better than Twilight's lore.

>>16559482
I didn't say worldbuilding, I said lore.

LotR has a well-built world. A well-built, boring world.

Tsukihime at least tries to do some things new. Or, well, a lot of its novelty is borrowed from KnK, but I didn't read KnK until later, so.

>>16557890
Oh, stop whining.

>>16559508
>Tsukihime at least tries to do some things new. Or, well, a lot of its novelty is borrowed from KnK, but I didn't read KnK until later, so.

Okay, I used the wrong term then. But Tsukihime's vampire lore is still shit and is barely better than Twilight's. And one of the biggest flaws of Tsukihime is how the vampire lore isn't shown, but told through overly-long exposition dumps.

>>16559535
I didn't care so much about the vampires. I was more there for the Mystic Eyes and the demons and demon hunters and SHIKI and Ciel's Conceptual Weapon and the life points of nature itself and blah blah.

The vampires were only one aspect of a clusterfuck of ideas.

I happen to like clusterfucks of ideas.

>>16559550
I agree with you actually, the other parts of Tsukihime's lore are really cool. I'm just saying that if we're objectively evaluating Tsukihime, it can be argued that the vampire lore is the weakest parts of the lore, and that the way the vampire lore is explained negatively affects the writing.

>>16559612
I don't disagree. Arcueid's route was the weakest for a reason--it mostly just talked about vampires a lot, and vampires aren't that interesting.

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>>16559622
Yeah I like Arcueid as a character though. She deserves a better backstory and a better route.

>>16559697
I'm one of those weirdos who actually played all the way through Fate/EXTRA. The Arcueid cameo was pretty cool.

The game in general wasn't really worth it, though. The story was mediocre and the gameplay was awful.

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What did you guys think of the Tsukihime manga? It's one of my favorites and after reading some of the VN I'm surprised to see how true it is to the VN (from what I read).

>>16559508
>a lot of its novelty is borrowed from KnK
I thought KnK came after Tsukihime?

>>16561095
>Kara no Kyōkai originated in October 1998 as a series of five chapters released online on Nasu and Takeuchi's dōjin-based website, Takebōki (竹箒?), with its final two chapters being released at Comiket 56 in August 1999. Nasu and Takeuchi later formed Type-Moon, and in 2001, featured a portion of the book in their 2001 Tsukihime fandisk, Tsukihime PLUS-DISC, which saw Kara no Kyōkai gain significant popularity, leading it to be released as a dōjinshi publication at Comiket 61 on December 30, 2001. On August 6, 2004, Kodansha released the series as a commercial publication, which enjoyed immense popularity, with 5,000 limited-edition versions of the novel being sold almost immediately upon release.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara_no_Kyōkai

>>16561704
ah fair enough.
Is there a list somewhere of all the stuff type-moon has done in release order?

>>16522155
>>16521881
I read it soon after it came out. I don't remember much of it, other than thinking that it was all right, just really fucking unnecessarily dragged out in places.

Don't even know which route I completed, I did only one. I remember I got to fuck Ciel in the ass in it. I posted about it on /a/ (pretty sure it was before /jp/ existed) and some nerds got upset because I guess Ciel was their pure waifu. It was my most successful thread on /a/ to date.