Why are Russians scared shitless about a defense treaty that

>>76195488
Quality memeballl muh'nonymous

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>>76195488
Why are amerijews encircling russia?

>>76195488
Go look up "World War 1"

>>76195984
NATO is not secret, and won't lead to another WWI scenario. Everybody knows who is in NATO.

>>76195594
Why shouldn't we encircle the only relevant country in the world that is willing to invade a country just because of muh feels. (See Crimea)

Also we would only be the bad guys in the eyes of the far right of NATO countries, and Putin cock suckers in Russia. And a few other countries mainly China, Syria, North Korea. History would remember us as the good guys.

>>76195488
Also the claim that the U.S. is trying to scare Russia with NATO is bullshit. Don't fall for Russian propaganda.

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_111767.htm?#cl101

>>76196379
>History would remember us as the good guys.
lol

no

>>76196379
As if America doesn't use propaganda as well. Look at the bullshit about Trump and Russia, and how ebil Russia is trying destablize America.

We just don't want to be ethnically ce\leansed. Your government has a bad reputation about genocide and racist things are still widely allowed in media. Also tons of anti-Russian propaganda that didn't end with the Cold War. So we are kind of worried. "What is on their minds?" "Why do they demonize us so?" The actions of our current government is a separate case though.

>>76197226
You think somebody would remember you as a good guy? Ever? Don't make me laugh.

>>76197351
Every country on the planet uses propaganda lad

>>76197419
>your country has a bad reputation about genocide
And your country has a bad reputation of mass murder.

Also don't pretend anti-American propaganda ended with the Cold War in Russia.

>>76197351
Bruh, even without collusion, it's pretty clear Russia tried to destabilize America.

>>76197450
They were good guys during WW2, fighting the Nazis, then become villains again afterwards, during Cold War.

Russia is a natural villain.

>>76196379
>invade a country just because of muh feels
Are you retarded?

>>76197450
>And your country has a bad reputation of mass murder.
No, it doesn't. Nobody conquered by us was mass-murdered.

>>76197450
>Also don't pretend anti-American propaganda ended with the Cold War in Russia.
What?

>>76197490
This, the only argument against it is they have no reason to do it. But realistically destabilizing the U.S. is the only way Russia could become a great power again.

>>76197526
>what is Poland
>what is Hungary
>what is the Holomodor

And for the anti-American prop. just look at any state-run Russian news outlet. It's almost all anti-american bullshit.

>>76197526
Katyn
Holodomor

>>76197526
I guess those Ukrainians just starved themselves, it had nothing to do with Russia.

>>76196379
>(See Crimea)
Crimea was originally Russian, has Russian people who had a referendum where huge majority of them voted that they want to leave Ukraine and join Russia (because of what happened in Kiev at that time). You're completely missing the key details.

>>76197419
>Why do they demonize us so?

Because you haven't changed a bit.

>>76196379
Well, Crimea always wanted back to Russia. Surveys showed around 80% pro. Of course, you should only support separatism and violation of our rights.

>>76197526
>Nobody conquered by us was mass-murdered.

what the fuck

>>76197568
Crimea was always Russian (after Stalin deported all those non Russians).

>>76197577
That's literally a muh feels argument for invading someone. There are proper ways to go about separating from country and dumbass ways. You chose the dumbass way.

If Ukraine refused to give a region of their sovereign territory independence, it is NOT Russia's problem. That is where you were in the wrong.

Am I right in my assessment that basically any opposition party that isn't the communist party has no hope of winning elections in Russia because they've all been demonized as American puppets working against Russia? What would it take for Russians to turn against Putin?

>>76197595
>Crimea was always Russian

you're wrong there, Crimea was Ukranian from 1954 until 2014

>>76197550
>>76197552
No conquest and holodomor was in all European part of Russia.

Yes, they did it to themselves like other poor people who reported their more rich neighbours. After the rich were robbed, they couldn't hire poor anymore, so everyone died.

>>76197590
Well, it is an old custom to give couquered nations right n shiet if they bow to some current ideology as Christianity, Socialism or... whatever we have now.

>>76197595
It was before. Tatars were deported because they supported Hitler. People weren't happy under Stalin, you know. Before that Russians were moved from there because Tatars tried to genocide them.

>>76197625
>There are proper ways to go about separating from country
Same way like you separate Kosovo from Serbia?

>>76197625
> There are proper ways to go about separating from country
They had many referendums before ignored by Kiev. Then Kiev changed Crimean constitution and abolished position of president of Crimea because he was separatist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_sovereignty_referendum,_1991
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_referendum,_1994

>>76197625
>You chose the dumbass way.
100% agree.

>>76197630
>opposition
>communist
Lel. They do what they're told to do.
>What would it take for Russians to turn against Putin?
A proper party to support. More awareness about people's strength. Guarantees that the new government won't ruin it even worse.

>>76197595
Russians were a majority in Crimea since 19th century.

>>76197657
I'm not saying that was a proper way. If it was then Kosovo would be a recognized country currently.

>>76197680
I know they did that. But just because the Ukrainian government refused to recognize it, does not give Russia the right to invade and annex them.

>>76197696
What is "a proper way" in that case?

>>76197696
>does not give the right to invade
It's funny when american says that.

>>76197705
A referendum. It's always the proper case. If that doesn't work then Civil War. But in the modern world a referendum should work, but some countries it doesn't. Any country that gets involved in a foreign countries civil war, unless it directly affects the country, is in the wrong, especially if they annex the country afterwords.

>>76197741
You do realize I'm not trying to suggest America hasn't done a lot of bad shit. Right?

>>76197752
Regional-wide referendums are banned by Ukrainian law.
And they had a referendum.
There were no war in Crimea.
> involved in a foreign countries civil war
Almost in any civil war in history there were other countries involved one way or another.

>>76197752
>A referendum
there was a referendum, he literally just told you >>76197680

>>76197705
Economical domination that leads to cultural until it is too late.

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>>76197779
Yeah, you assholes helped the North win the American Civil War

>>76197802
It's a myth. Our ships just passed by.

>>76195488
Geopolitics mainly.

Russia always wants to push and control further West to protect Russias heartland (Moscow) or risk perishing. Because on average, Russia gets attacked on or from the Great European plain once every 33 years. Hence why the Soviet Union was exclusively states west of Russia and the caucuses.

But with NATO, the US have effectively "contained" Russia to it's pre-soviet borders when it was vulnerable. Coupled with the fact that Russia has lacks warm water ports, and the 2 warm water ports they do have, have to travel through straits controlled by NATO forces, Russia is basically the most vulnerable in its history.

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>>76197882
> it's pre-soviet borders

>>76195488
Because NATO outclasses them in every single way and Russia doesn't know how to build alliances without putting countries at gun point.

They're scared

>>76197882
Well they wouldn't have to worry about NATO closing off access to their warm water ports if they weren't violent shitheads that opposed the west for no reason.

>>76197905
>Americans will defend this.

their government for whatever reason wants to have free reign to squeeze its neighbors

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>>76197882
>have to travel through straits controlled by NATO forces, Russia is basically the most vulnerable in its history.

Good.

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>>76197939
>Well they wouldn't have to worry about NATO

>>76195488
idk, probably WWI and WWII

>>76195488
They're not scared of NATO. They have nukes. They're untouchable. They're scared that because Ukraine is so similar to Russia if Ukraine's desire to become a successful Western nation works out Russians will wanna have the same. They invaded Ukraine because they're scared of a Maidan on the Red Square.

>>76197905
Well, the 17th century is still technically pre-soviet.

>>76197939
It all comes down to Putin and his advisers. Putin believes the collapse of the USSR was one of the major geopolitical disasters of the century and a good chunk of his advisers are cold war veterans who due to the collapse of the USSR, calculate on potential, not promises. All in all, it's a very paranoid cold war way of thinking.

>>76197512
>They were good guys during WW2
lol no, they were the bad guys, too. They invaded Poland together with the Nazis. They just happened to be invaded by other bad guys. That doesn't make them good.

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>>76195488

A bunch of saudies fly planes to buildings.

OMIGOSH we are under attack from Afganistan, NATO assemble ! What do you mean, we are attacking the wrong country ? We have a DEFENCIVE pact, so we must bomb the shit out of the middle east to serve our interests and you whiners must follow the DEFENCE treaty, because we say so.


NATO is a USA feel good club for not wanting to look like murderous psychopath it is

and arguably Russia understands that

so they know even if you stage the first attack or do so under a false flag, the rest of us NATO sheeple will follow you to nuke hellfire

>>76197568
>Crimea was originally Russian
Nope. All kinds of people settled in Crimea throughout the ages. Just because the Russians were the last invaders doesn't make their claim more valid.

>has Russian people who had a referendum where huge majority of them voted that they want to leave Ukraine and join Russia
There are no free elections or referenda under a military occupation. In Ukraine's independe referendum in 1991 all of Ukraine, including Crimea voted in favor of independence.

>>76197577
>Crimea always wanted back to Russia. Surveys showed around 80% pro.
see>>76198167

>>76198092
NATO was used in Afghanistan, not in Iraq. NATO was not used to retaliate against the wrong country. The coalition in Iraq was not NATO, it was a coalition set up at that time for the purpose of the Iraq War.

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>>76198167
And what's that >>76197680
> military occupation
Nice meme. Most soldiers were locals. And 80% of local Ukrainian soldiers switched sides and got Russian citizenshop. Including commander of their navy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Berezovsky

>>76195488
1. We always need some buffer zone (see: all wars for past thousand years)
2. It's part of the Great Game (chess between West and Russia), and extending NATO is considered as a threat for us
3. Our puppet-state wasn't stable, so Putin was forced to act tactically - take Crimea

>>76197630
There is no real opposition in Russia because they're too fragmented, which is of course the result of actions of Russian secret services. The East German Stasi called these methods Zersetzung:
>The goal of Zersetzung is the fragmentation, paralysis, disorganization, and isolation of the hostile and negative forces, in order to preventatively impede the hostile and negative activities, to largely restrict, or to totally avert them, and if applicable to prepare the ground for a political and ideological reestablishment.
>For the Zersetzung of groups, it infiltrated them with unofficial collaborators, sometimes minors.[46] The work of opposition groups was hindered by permanent counter-propositions and discord on the part of unofficial collaborators when making decisions.[47] To sow mistrust within the group, the Stasi made believe that certain members were unofficial collaborators; moreover by spreading rumors and manipulated photos,[48] the Stasi feigned indiscretions with unofficial collaborators, or placed members of targeted groups in administrative posts to make believe that this was a reward for the activity of an unofficial collaborator.[31] They even aroused suspicions regarding certain members of the group by assigning privileges, such as housing or a personal car.[31] Moreover, the imprisonment of only certain members of the group gave birth to suspicions.[47]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung

So basically by covert operatios the FSB turned the Russian opposition into a People's Front of Judea.

>>76198092
>We have a DEFENCIVE pact, so we must bomb the shit out of the middle east to serve our interests and you whiners must follow the DEFENCE treaty, because we say so.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what a defensive pact is, helping your allies militarily. Not helping your allies in that case would entirely undermine the reason for having a defensive pact in the first place. Your country may as well be completely on its own when it gets invaded by angry Russians, just like Ukraine.

>>76197550
Poles killed more
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camps_for_Russian_prisoners_and_internees_in_Poland_(1919–24)

>>76198167
>Just because the Russians were the last invaders doesn't make their claim more valid.
It does if you follow the law or something like that.

>>76198323
Based Poles.

>>76197647
>No conquest and holodomor was in all European part of Russia.
While it is true that Ukraine wasn't the only region suffering hunger and starvation, it's a scientifically proven fact that the Russian government deliberately channeled it to Ukraine.

>>76197657
If Serbia hadn't sperged out - with your backing of course - it would have been a proper separation. After all the Yugoslav constitution granted its regions the right to secession expressis verbis.

>>76198389
Yet everyone goes "MUH KATÝN ,MUH COMMIE KILLS" and no one speaks about that.Polish government even protested the construction of memorial for people who died in their concentration camps

daily reminder that it was America which started the Cuban (Turkey) crysis in 1961 and almost dragged the whole world into a nuclear war

>>76197939
You sound like a fucking mobster.

>>76198590
Nah, I'm just trying to egg on Russians and Putin fellators from the west.

>>76198639
Well, you're not doing a very good job.

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>>76195488
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqD8lIdIMRo

>>76198473

t. channel 1

>>76198747
at first you placed some deadly rockets in our backyard then Soviets paid you with the same coin you started crying and playing victim "AGGRESSORS!! RED SCAAAAARE" kek.

go and check, interesting read

>>76198200
We know the Russian tactic of handing out passports to build a claim from Georgia. That doesn't make that claim valid.

>>76198639
By appearing like a fool?

>>76198895

as I recall it was in response to some titanic tank battalions that the USSR, and not russia, had placed at the throat of free europe

now, to take nukes and put them in our hemisphere, that's a great big no fuckin no

>>76198346
Crimea is not Russian land.
http://aillarionov.livejournal.com/649571.html#cutid1

>>76195488
russia is a poor corrupted shithole with no future and no chance for improvements.
just let it fall and then you americans should take control of the central and north-western parts of the country just to be sure something like the ussr or russia in its current state won't happen again

>>76198939
de-facto it is. but after americans come to liberate us from tyranny it will be given back to hohols and finally peace would be achieved.

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>>76199055
You have nukes. Nobody can liberate you except your own populace. It'll be like the last time a slow decline until collapse.
Or maybe the Chinese overtake Siberia and this will trigger something which leads to the eventual liberation of Crimea.

Because Russian politics revolves around perceptions of strength and the resentment in the populace at Russia no longer being a superpower. For politicians to maintain their grasp on the population on the back of this rhetoric, they must at least give the appearance of trying to reclaim those glory days.

>>76198739
This was actually a really interesting talk. Thank you for posting it.

>>76198939
Not sure what do you mean and why you're telling it to me.

Holy shit, you're right, OP! We put our country so close to NATO borders, we must want war!

>>76199500
Then start to read.

>>76199534
Why would I read some retarded blog? If you can't express your opinion, don't even start talking.

>>76195488
People are just afraid you will bomb us like Serbia and Iraq

All this your rhetoric like ITT for example just scare russians. They see you totally missunderstand their views on the world and pose a huge thread for them.

>>76198939
Have you beem to Crimea? Have talked to crimeans? No? Fuck off

>>76199577

>the nations we border join a defensive pact to support one another if we invade them again
>they are warmongers

fucking russia :'D

>>76199697
Imagine if Mexico or Canada tried to join military block with Russia or idk China.
What would be your reaction?
You almost started ww3 because of some stupid missile on Cuba.

>>76199697
You genocided serbs although they didn't invade any NATO country

>>76199731

we don't ever give them reason to do so, also your country disputes with canada over the arctic, among other things
so, really, I couldn't care less

>>76199697
>>76199732
And unlike you in Crimea not a single man was killed in "bloody occupation aggainst the will of crimeans"

>>76199697
Who are you quoting?

>>76199577
>Why would I read
To learn what I mean. After all you said:
>Not sure what do you mean

>>76199696
Do facts scare you?

>>76199778

Glorious liberation and freedom of lands with our ethnic people in them was will of people, *wink wink* ;D

Glory to Arstotzka

>>76199823
I've seen the post. It is irrelevant to our conversation.

NATO was created exclusively to destroy my country, why should I trust it after it invaded Serbia, Lybia and Iraq

>>76199866
It's very relevant

>>76199850
I've been to Crimea, I've seen it with my own eyes and talked to people living there, what can be more important? What some people in New York think about that? We should know opinipn of Uganda's rappers then

>>76199882
Explain.

>>76199867

your country is not the USSR

or IS it? :D

and NATO is a defensive cooperative alliance, since there was one belligerent in particular that happened to be opposing every democracy on earth

>>76199863
That's no way funny when your tropps stay on my country's border. Crimeans are willing to live in Russia, that's only what matters at this case.

>>76199919

no one asked you spain lite

>>76199903
It is direct descendant of the USSR, most people here were born in the USSR, we won't demonize our past like ukrainians or like you want us to do. How did it come "defensive alliance" only took part in offensive wars?

the political redpill

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

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>>76199945

>>76199947

I don't consider the bringing of serbs to heel in their wrathful murder to be an "offensive" action

if that's what you in particular are referring to

>>76199887
Do facts scare you?

>>76199892
You mean the content of the blogpost?

>>76199978
No, I only refer to facts.
>>76199974
That's the thing, total missunderstand of what happened and what's happening. You are just brainwashed. Millions of serbs were replaced and forced out of their homes in Croatia and Kosovo all due to you. Thousands were killed by your bombings of residential areas.

>>76200003
I mean why did you gave it to me.

>>76199697
>a defensive pact
you mean a massive rocket shield sponsored on american money?
>they are warmongers
no of cause they are not. they doing it because of the possible russian expansion, at least that's what western propaganda trying to convince people. but also because the fact that with a simple snap of uncle Sam's fingers economy of all of those puppet states will crash in a brief moment, so they forced to behave like a good puppies they are. pay your debs btw, you ignorant fatfucks living on credit of the people of the rest of the world.

>>76200039
>No, I only refer to facts.
Apparently you refer to anecdotal evidence and avoid facts.

>>76200067
To inform you.

>>76200087
Sp what is your fact then? Bloody occupation? May be we commited genocide of ukrainians or crimeans don't actually want to be part of Russia?

>>76200114
Read the blogpost.

>>76200109
Inform about what I know? For what purpose? Explain.

>>76200085

you know what is a thousand times better at bringing countries together in defense than supposed propaganda of the USA?

the actions of your state

>>76198046
this guy knows what's up

>>76200130
It says that despite russians are majority in Crimea it is not russian because russians live there not long enough. Is that your fact?

>>76197526
Just couple of examples:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples#Russian_Empire.27s_conquest_of_Siberia

Also don't forget about thousands of civillians killed during two Chechen wars and millions of civilians killed during the Afghanistan war.

Do Russians realize their countries agressssive actions are pushing NATO countries deeper into the alliance and pushing some neutral countries towards the alliance?

If the big bear starts roaring at the village gates then of course people are going to be against you.

>>76200133
>For what purpose?
The discussion in this thread. Do you like playing retarded in order to avoid facts like a plague?

>>76200354
There links show only Muslims who were agressors. It is like """genociding""" Nazi Germans.

>>76200354
>don't forget about thousands of civillians killed
By Chechens who raised against non-Muslims. Be sure I won't.

>>76200337
It shows how ridiculous the Russian claim that Crimea is "originally Russian", thereby defusing Rusian state propaganda.

>>76200389
>By Chechens who raised against non-Muslims

By Russians actually. Russians basically razed Grozny to the ground.

>>76200381
Please, elaborate. I feel like you are playing for some reason. How is it related to our discussion? can you speak?

>>76200406
>Russian claim that Crimea is "originally Russian"
? ? ?

>>76200368

>be bear
>menace villagers
>complain about a fence

All these assblasted russians. Hilarious

>>76200389
>There links show only Muslims who were agressors.


I'lold. You're either a Putin bot or gullible brainwashed idiot. Russians clearly were aggressors there. Like Serbians in the Bosnian war. And like Serbs they massacred tons of civilians in ethnics cleansings.

>>76200419
Chechens started it. They were always savage agressors only contained by Cossacks. then lenin genocided Cossacks with their hands. Chechens don't deserve to live on Russian lands they occupied when they killed Russians with the help of commies.

>>76195488
t. Shlomo Shekelstein

>>76200406
By originally it is always meant it was rusaian before 1954 when it was given Ukraine. So you just ignore the will of the people and its current population to fit the opinion of your american masters. That's why russians are scared by NATO: you don't give a single fuck about local populations

>>76200472
>Russians clearly were aggressors there.
Against Muslims? Read some history.
>And like Serbs they massacred tons of civilians in ethnics cleansings.
We literally never did it in the entire history. That makes us different from Westerners.

>>76200472
Tы cepьёзнo? Hy ты и дeбил, лoл.

>>76200452
People are scared, americans have reputation of a nation who bombs anyone it doesn't like to stone age, and now we are called their enemies. That's just rational fear

>>76200474
I'm done.
> then lenin genocided Cossacks with their hands

He did nothing wrong. Cossacks were braindead hounds of Tsar regime quelling dissent everywhere, persecuting Jews and Old Believers. Good grief.

>>76200444
Stop playing dumb. It's literally in the blogpost with a link to the kremlin right at the top.

>>76200538
Hmm, why does that remind me of our neighbouring country?

>>76200584
>Cossacks were braindead hounds of Tsar regime
Stopped reading there. There were different kinds of Cossacks. Anyways better than Muslims.
>persecuting Jews and Old Believers
They were themselves old-believers mostly.

>>76200637
Norway?

>>76200631
PLease, tell me how is it related to what *me* and *you* said here. Stop playing dumb.

>>76200514
No you ignore the thousands of years when Crimea wasn't Russian and even how little of the time Crimea was under Russian rule there was a Russian majority and how that is due to deportations.

>>76200686
>thousands of years when Crimea wasn't Russian
Crimea is greek. So am I.

>>76200666
read the fucking blogpost, dumass

>>76200705
Just post the relevant parts and be done with it

>>76200686
>and how that is due to deportations
Tatars have no right to argue.

1. They are Muslims = agressors. they attacked us first.
2. They joined Nazi Germany.
3. They have mafia that obtains land illegally.

They are a trouble to peaceful people of Crimea.

I (OP) am going to bed. Stop replying. I don't want to wake up to 500 replies.

>>76200704
This is what your president said. He made a historical claim. Yes, your president literally made an argument on the intellectual level of ikibey and you all nodded and defend him.

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>>76200538

we only ever bombed anything to the stone age that was fascist, communist, or crawling with international terrorists :D

also our adversary's usually are the ones to start shit

peace is my concern, those that endanger peace are imperiling no one but themselves

>>76196379
>History would remember us as the good guys.
oh lordy

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Alright OP, man up and tell us what diaspora you are.

>>76200686
Your logic is retardes. Yes, Crimea is russian only for bunch of centuries, so should we handle it to Greece or Turkey? People living there right now are rusaians, can you handle this fact?

>>76200705
I've read it. It has nothing to do with anything I've posted here.

>>76200749
>This is what your president said
Wow, he's a big man so it must be true. *wink*

>>76197490
>Bruh, even without collusion, it's pretty clear Russia tried to destabilize America.
You talking about the Vietnam era when the KGB funded antiwar movements?

>>76200762
You are the only threat to peace here. You literally created the biggest spawn of international terrorists in Kosovo.

>>76200765

he could be anyone that's kept himself up on dates with the russian government's statements over the past few years desu

Ukraine can never join NATO, because of disputed territories. If West gets involved in Crimea, it would mean WW3.

>>76200732
I already explained what it's about. I can't take the burden of reading off you guys. But it's also not a tome of Dostoyevsky. It deals with just one single subject in a couple of paragraphs nad presents information nicely in three tables.

>>76200821
>people out of their home
What? Do you just take facts from your ass? Nobody was replaced in Crimea and even Donbass.

>>76200515
Russians were aggressors all 19 century. I guess ethnic cleansing are intrinsic part of Russian history of conquering of Caucasian region. It all started in 19 century when Russian Empire decided to conquer that region. They started systematically eradicate indigenous people of the region or try to russificate them where they could. Every rebellion was drowned in blood. Just google infamous imperial general Ermolov and his strategy of wiping out the whole Chechen villages as an act of retaliation.

>>76200820

whose weapons are in the hand of nearly every terrorist?

I think it may be you

>>76200821
Do people really believe it? I mean holodomor. A serious question for a moment.

>>76200741
>no right to argue.
That's not how it works, Ivan. Everyone has a right to argue and the facts decide who's right.
Any oppressed populace will ally any outside force threatening the oppressors.

>>76200793
That is true, but it's not what I was talking about. Russia ran a huge propaganda campaign to put their thumb on the scale in the election. And now the country is incredibly divided over the legitimacy of the government because the people who benefitted from it do not want to punish Russia for the greatest attack on our sovereignty since 9/11.

>>76200821
Well Russia wouldn't have invaded if the Ukrainians didn't overthrow their Pro-Russian government. Look at Ukraine now, it's bigger shithole than before and poorest country in Europe.

>>76200791
And his claim has been parroted in this very thread.

>>76200837
Ukraine can't join NATO because its purpose for existing is being a neutral buffer zone between Russia and Europe.

>>76200845
I'm just saying that posting "read the blog" over and over again gets tiresome after a while even if you are right.

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>>76200890
Oh, it's one of these "Trump is evul Putin spy" trolls.

Never mind.

>>76200821
Enjoying your 90 days visa-free travel, Petro?

>>76200868
ISIS literally only uses TOW in Syria as well as any other jihadist group there.

>>76200891
It's better be the poorest country in Europe than a Russian puppet state.

>>76200781
Illegal occupation will not be tolerated. It cannot serve as justification.

>>76200865
Their fault to be evil Muslims.

>>76200877
Did I say otherwise?

>>76200932
I did not say that Trump colluded with Russia you dolt. I only said what people Trump has appointed have admitted is true, that Russia interfered in our election.

>>76198046
This

>>76200949
What are you going to about it? Crimea is de-facto Russian.

Cos they fear the situation where they have to wage an all-out nuclear war against the US and its allies.

>>76200786
Then fuck off. You entered the discussion I had with the Croatian. Follow the backlinks if your memory is so flawed.

>>76195488
NATO infringes on Russia's right to attack its neighbors for no reason.

>>76200903
There is various of reasons to support unification with Crimea. It's not like people only care about it because Putin said so.

>>76200875
I think Holodomor is more realistic story than unproved bullshit about Russian civilians massacred in Chechnya in 90's lol.

>>76200988
>Follow the backlinks
If you mistake anons for each other it is your problem.

>>76200993
Who did we attack recently?

>>76200974
Sonce Putin signed the treaty that stipulates Creamea is annxed into Russia, it's formally a part of the Russian territory.

>>76200956
And that goes down to the entire silliness of the thing, which is that it is far more to Putin's benefit to have the Neville Chamberlains in the Democrat Party occupy the White House since he can get away with anything, which is exactly what happened in Crimea and Syria. He realized Obama was a joke of a president who scared no one.

When you had Trump talking about modernizing the US nuclear arsenal and ramping up defense spending, you have to think "If he were a Russian spy, why the fuck would he be advocating this?"

>>76201020
>Holodomor is more realistic story
They're both beyond retarded then.

>>76200949
>Illegal occupation
What is legal occupation?

>>76200954
>Did I say otherwise?
I literally quoted you doing so

Crimea is strategically important because of its access to black sea.

>>76201019
>It's not like people only care about it because Putin said so.
What part of "they parroted him" didn't you understand?

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>>76198046
>Russians will wanna have the same
Lol

>>76201023
>Who did we attack recently?

Georgia and Ukraine.

>>76201023
Crimea.
>only recently
kek
Russia sets the bar low for their crimes.

ITT: babby's first geopolitical reading of the world

>>76201070
You didn't. Opressed Russians allied with Putin. Too bad for everyone in the end.

>>76200928
Yeah, well, so is refusing to read and playing down its relevance.

>>76201023

>what did we attack recently

a dutch jetliner of all things

>>76201102
>Georgia
True. We also won.
>Ukraine
Official Ukrainian position is different. Their court said otherwise. There is no war between us, lol.

>>76200946
Found an Ukrainian.

>>76200974
And Russia has been under Tartar rule longer than crimea has been Russian. A diaspora doesn't constitute a claim to redraw borders.

>>76201103
>Crimea
What?
>Russia sets the bar low
Well, WWI is irrelevant nowadays.

>>76201092
I understand it. I'm just saying what Putin's claims is not only reasons why people this whole thing.

>>76201023
>If you mistake anons for each other it is your problem.
Still playing dumb

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>this thread

The entire problem here is that Russia is still living in the 19th century when right of conquest was accepted, actions like the heist of Crimea are not exactly acceptable behavior today.

>>76201050
Ok retard. Trump hasn't even told Russia to stop on Twitter. He amended the GOP platform to remove providing arms to Ukraine. He gave the Russians their diplomatic compounds back that were seized for their election interference. Rex Tillerson is complaining about Congress trying to increase the sanctions. Do I really need to go on?

And Hillary is not Obama. Her no fly zone would mean American planes shooting down Russian bombers in Syria.

>>76201135
>a dutch jetliner
What? When? Ohmygod.

>>76201103
Putin took Crimea without firing a shot

Russia is probably funding the rebels in Eastern Ukraine. So they are not directly at war.

>>76201055
an oymoron

>>76201163
I'm has nothing to do with neither Russians nor Ukrainians. All Slavs are filthy backward scam.

>>76201172
Tatars are ~3% in Russia. they must feel the guilt for 10 milleniums more. Or assimilate. that is what they gladly do now.

>>76201200
Butthurt Nazi.

>>76201119
>they have no right to argue.
>Everyone has a right to argue
>Did I say otherwise?

>>76201210
>>76201050
Man, if you're gonna samefag argue with yourself, at least change your posting style to be less obvious.

>>76201204
It's not like we had a choice. There is one of our biggest navy bases.

>>76201197
People parroting him is enough reason to defuse those claims. You're trying to distract from the topic.

>>76201261
>Everyone has a right to argue
>Did I say otherwise?
I didn't say it. I meant I agree about the way they took Crimea.

>>76201213
>Putin took Crimea without firing a shot
Tell that to the 300 dead civilians he shot down in that passenger plane.

>>76201331
Putin shot a plane down?

>>76198046
>>76200219
>>76200971
>They invaded Ukraine because they're scared of a Maidan on the Red Square.
Can't believe people on /int/ this delusional on eastern Europe's geopolitical situation.

>>76201280
Nobody is samefagging there you paranoid mong.

>>76201154
>We

Oh, you. You won nothing, Ivan. This war gave us nothing but problems. The only people who won is a small group of oligarchs. Don't be a retard. The same goes for Crimea, we gain nothing except for economic crisis and fall of our currency value. Russian foreign policy is a joke. Only small group of people benefit from it and not the vast majority of Russians for sure.

>>76201288
Are you reatarded?
1. The stationing right were extended.
2. Even if they weren't that gives you no right to invade.

>>76201349
>russian dindu nuffin
>dindu

Oh I forgot the official meme from Kremlin. It was patriots who somehow magically acquired Russian military hardware via meme magic for no reason and patriotically downed a passenger civilian jet full of enemies. Was that the official lie? Did I get it right?

>>76201331
That was not in Crimea idiot. It was in Eastern Ukraine, shot by some drunken rebels who mistook it for a war plane.

>>76201254
you missed the point again

>>76201312
>People parroting him is enough reason to defuse those claims
I didn't say anything in support of those claims.
>You're trying to distract from the topic
What is the topic? This whole story about Crimea and reasons behind it or what Putin said about it?

>>76201254
stay mad

>>76201392
>Even if they weren't that gives you no right to invade
And what can give anyone rights to invide?

>>76201393
I don't know. If some international detective says it is true, I would believe him.

>>76201331
Tell that to 300 odesites burned alive, including mothers and children. Those who made it got away with it, cause they knew that new Ukrainian government will cover em up and your lovely CNN will never tell about it.

>>76201392
Lol, does your country do anything besides being butthurt about Russia.

>>76201329
That's literally irrelevant. There is no legal justification whatsoever for the deportation of an entire people.

>>76201429
>Said butthurt Nazi who came here to express his butthurt.
NO U really works for you, kek.

>>76201460
A decision by the UNSC.

>>76201392
Ukraine is unreliable, They would have told Russia to fuck off. Crimea is too valuable to let go for Russia.

I still don't get why Putin annexed Crimea. It was the most Russian part of Ukraine, they would be needed to vote in pro Russia governments in Ukraine. Crimeans wanted to join Russia because Russia had a marginally better economy at the time, but annexing Crimea resulted in a ton of sanctions being placed on Russia and inflation, Crimeans won't see any economic benefits for a long time. The only thing Russia got out of it was their national pride, at the cost of pro Russian voters in Ukraine and their economy.

>>76199778
>not a single man was killed
Пиздит кaк pyccкий.

>>76201494
stay mad

>>76201467
>There is no legal justification whatsoever for the deportation of an entire people.
Entire people weren't deported. they joined Nazi. Could've been all killed ofr good. they were lucky Stalin probably eaten something tasty that morning or he already killed his quote for the day.

>>76201525
>I keep butthurting

>>76201465
>tell that to fictional lies
Okay, thanks Russia lies. You really convinced the world that Russia's evil acts were justified...
kek

>>76200932
What happened here is that a few hours after Hillary's spanking on November 8, the DNC sat down and invented an excuse for their loss, that being that Russia blah blah blah. They've done it every election they lose since 2000.

>2000
mmmmuh hanging chads
>2004
mmmmuh rigged Ohio voting machines
>2016
mmmmuh Russia

>>76197512
>They were good guys during WW2
people from Eastern Europe were literally running away to Nazi occupied teritory because they prefered the risk of being killed over the risk of being raped, tortured and then killed

imagine Russian gopnik videos on youtube, now add lack of even the little of education they have now, multiply poverty, degeneration, add hunger, lack of contact with the world outside of their villages (nowadays they at least have tv)

now imagine what happens when you give them weapons, force them through conditions even more horrible than their regular living conditions and then let them out in some semi-civilized area with permission to steal anything, and kill or rape (or both) anyone

now you get the idea of why they were rather considered the bad guys in most of the countries they visited

>>76201355
lol Putin wanted Kuchma to shoot the Ukrainian, protesters back in 2004. When Kuchma refused it tipped Putin over from pro-West to paranoid warmonger. He's been in fear of a color revolution in Russia ever since.

>>76201521
>Хoхoл

>>76201513
Russia has 5 times larger GDP than Ukraine, even with sanctions.

>>76201544
stay mad

>>76201463
So you only believe our biased government who does nothing save for bullshitting and screwing over its citizens for years? Interesting. Really makes you think about your level of intelligence.

>>76201501
It's not like anyone ever care about it. Why should we care?

>>76201574
Bepниcь oбpaтнo в зaгoн, нe пoзopь paшкy бoльшe чeм oбычнo

>>76201561
Do you actually believe the Russia shit started on November 8?

>>76201507
Literally not ture. The Russian general staff did a study if the Sevastopol port could be replaced with a native Russian Black Sea port. The outcome was yes, but it would cost money.
And they obviously didn't invade to save money, retard.

>>76200085
Most of the debts the US government owes are to US citizens. Hell, there's a substantial portion of the US debt that the government owes to itself. We also don't have a history of declaring bankruptcy, unlike Russia.

>>76201424
Then read the prior discussion before entering it

>>76201583
>I came to show my butthurt and fucked up.

>>76201593
Read what I've said.

>>76201561
Russia investigation began one year ago in June 2016 before the election. The dossier (which has accurately predicted every Russian move) was leaked 12 months ago.

>>76201632
I've read the whole thread.

>>76201561
You have no idea just how much money was riding on Hillary's being elected. When you lose your multibillion dollar investment to a guy who'd never held political office in his life and was a de-facto third party candidate, naturally you get butthurt about it.

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>>76201465
Sorry not sorry

>>76201603
Oтъeбиcь, oк? У тeбя тaм cyхapи cтынyт, или чeм нынчe хoхлы oт гoлoднoй cмepти cпacaютcя.

>>76201642
kek yeah, stay mad

>>76195488
Because it does a whole lot more than that

>Muh Ebil Russia.

Lol Americans are retarded. How about acutally trying to improve relationship with Russia, instead of these pointless warmongering, like Trump wants to do?

Cтэй мэд paшн cкaм

>>76201643
And not a word of it came out at that time. Supposing you had incontrovertible evidence of your opponent in a presidential election being a paid agent of a foreign government, simple logic would dictate that it is more sensible to come out with this info, oh I dunno, before Election Day? Derp.

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These geopolitical disputes are giants of thought.
>>76201603
И хoхoл

>>76201665
Now, you'll repeat it again to prove you are butthurt.

>>76201672
>please improve relations with the country that invadeed Crimea and interfered with American election
This is how to spot a Russian shill. Same shit every thread.

>>76201659
I thought Ukrainians can't afford to buy food?

>>76201672
They need to respect our sovereignty and try to improve relations in an over the table manner. Funding propaganda in our country to make people ok with Russia's aggression is not OK.

>>76201701
>stay mad

>>76201711
They eat old people.

>>76201707
Who the cares about Ukraine? They're not your ally, America doesn't owe them anything.

hehe, i surely thought something was wrong when most /int/ anons were going "le i liek russia" "le kind russians best posters". As expected it was all a facade

>>76201722
Gotcha.

>>76201555
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Odessa_clashes

>>76201682
>And not a word of it came out at that time
Never go full retard.

>By Fall 2016, many news organizations knew about the existence of the dossier, which had been described as an "open secret" among journalists. However, they chose not to publish information that could not be confirmed.[7] Finally on October 31, 2016, a week before the election, Mother Jones reported that a former intelligence officer, whom they did not name, had produced a report based on Russian sources and turned it over to the FBI.[11] The report alleged that the Russian government had cultivated Trump for years:

>The "Russian regime has been cultivating, supporting and assisting TRUMP for at least 5 years. Aim, endorsed by PUTIN, has been to encourage splits and divisions in western alliance." It maintained that Trump "and his inner circle have accepted a regular flow of intelligence from the Kremlin, including on his Democratic and other political rivals." It claimed that Russian intelligence had "compromised" Trump during his visits to Moscow and could "blackmail him."[11]

>>76195488
How did US invade yugoslavia, iraq, libya, afghanistan?

>>76201544
It was collective punishment. There's no justification whatsoever for it

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>>76201764
>Mother Jones
You're gonna have to try harder than that, pal.

>>76201742
>Please don't care about victims of Russian aggression
Same Russian shill talking point every thread. Russians are so predictable and always follow the script.

>>76201717
>Funding propaganda in our country
Invest in education, that is the greatest weak link in America

>>76201757
stay mad

Russia can kick around Ukraine, Georgia, and Chechnya all they want and I won't care. All of those places are basket cases on par with mid-level Sub-Saharan African countries. We have no interests there and Russia can't really make them any worse.

>>76201742
What if after WW2, we just said, "who cares about western Europe and Asia? They're not our ally"? It would be fucking retarded. We need to court countries that aren't our allies to become our allies if we want to see the long term benefits from it. Ukraine has like 40 million people and a lot of potential.

>>76201717
>gib gib gib
>doesn't at least offer to stop doing the same shit they want it to stop doing in exchange
Very american diplomacy

You wanna talk about voter fraud, there were a couple million illegal immigrants registered to vote in California. Take those away and Hillary doesn't even win the popular vote. But that sure won't ever be looked into.

>>76201595
The quetion wasn't whether or not you care. The question was if there was legal justification. The answer is no.

>>76201804
>Ukraine has like 40 million people and a lot of potential.

Pretty much all of Ukraine's "potential" (and industry) is in the pro-Russia eastern provinces. We're not going to get anything out of that shithole.

>>76201782
MJ was the first to publish. Many others followed. The dossier has been confirmed by FBI. No one doubts it anymore because everything in it has come true. It predicted Russia would sell 19% of Rosneft to American parties. On Trump's first day in office he made it so oil companies didn't have to disclose foreign payments. Then 19.5% of Rosneft was immediately sold to "undisclosed buyers". Coincidentally Rex Tillerson was made Secretary of State by Trump and he was awarded the Friend of Russia meda
l for making oil deals with Rosneft. This level of corruption is beyond anything seen before in America.

>>76201801
As I said, Ukraine is just a buffer zone between Russia and Europe, they have no vested interest in annexing the whole place because it's dirt-ass poor and Russia would go bankrupt trying to absorb and integrate it.

>>76201817
>want it
want us*

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>>76196379
>History would remember us as the good guys.
20 bucks Nazis and Commies thought the same.

>>76201819
There is quite literally zero evidence for that claim, Ivan.

>>76201648
Then apparently your aim is to disrupt ongoing discussion by acting like a retard.

>>76201837
>legal justification
That's not actually a real thing.

>>76201848
Yeah, I know. In fact Russia has been pretty vocal about wanting to keep Ukraine together and not wanting parts of it to break off. I don't see how our interests, what little we have in Ukraine, really clash with their's. We (and the Germans) are mostly damaging their economy to appease a few eastern NATO allies.

>>76201871
How am I disrupt anything?

>>76201819
It LITERALLY is being looked into right now. Trump appointed Chris Kobach to do it.

>>76201817
We are willing to improve relations if you stop electing people like Putin, or at the very least Putin starts treating us better. We started to improve relations with Iran despite our hostilities, because Iran was willing to work with us in an over the table manner and didn't run a propaganda campaign to get pro Iranian candidates elected in the US.

>>76201891
"We"
No such thing.

>>76201868
>>76201847
>>76201764
>>76201643
>>76200956
>this tryhard DNC employee

>>76201905
"We are willing."
Fuck off

>>76201894
writing more than a dozen replies to me that according to yourself have no relation to the prior discussion

>>76201905
>and didn't run a propaganda campaign to get pro Iranian candidates elected in the US
They already had one in office from 2009 to 2016.

>>76201838
Your arrogance is what will cause our decline on the global stage. After WW2 we could have said "what potential does Europe have? Their cities are rubble. We should let Russia have that shithole, it's not worth the effort". But we didn't. We spent decades cultivating alliances and trade deals, and we benefitted immensely from it.

>>76201770
And gearing up to invade iran?
Having encircled iran

>>76201905
>if you stop electing people like Putin, or at the very least Putin starts treating us better.

You seriously have such a primitive view on politics and think it's up to us to stop electing p*tin or even to get rid of him?

But in reality, it can be achieved only by revolution; p*tin will never give up his power voluntarily.

>>76201951
"Our"
Fuck off commie scum, there are only individuals.

>>76201880
This is what Putin wants to make you people believe. It is the basis of his power. If there is no law, like in Russia, then the strong take whatever they want at the expense of the weak. And if you endorse this you are helping to keep the forces that oppress you in power.

>>76201940
Way to miss the point. The point I was making is that American leaders were willing to make a deal with Iran because Iran did not resort to the same measures Russia did.

>>76201905
>Putin starts treating us better
What he ever done to you?

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>>76201980

>>76201951
>After WW2 we could have said "what potential does Europe have? Their cities are rubble. We should let Russia have that shithole

Except that would have been retarded, because western Europe was not literally rubble at all and was still the most well-developed region in the entire world outside of the coasts of the USA. What can Ukraine possibly get us? It's poorer than Angola per person and a complete and utter mess politically with a brewing civil war and Neo-Nazi militias operating right across the street from their parliament. We've grabbed everything of value after the downfall of the USSR; Ukraine was simply not valuable.

>>76202036
Pinko faggot there is no our or we.

>>76202009
The existence of RT America. Attempting to hack the systems that maintain the voter rolls in 39 states. Threatening our allies in Europe.

>>76202045
"We"
Again you have done nothing.

>>76202045
I thought you like neo-nazi militias. Isn't that the whole point of /pol/?

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>>76202079
>Attempting to hack the systems that maintain the voter rolls in 39 states
So just like when democrats hacked voting ballots in cities right?
I shit equaly both on US and Russia but you burgers act like you've done nothing.

>>76201891
>Russia has been pretty vocal about wanting to keep Ukraine together and not wanting parts of it to break off.
rofl

>>76202079
America doesnt even exist, i cant even define this arbituary mess and reason for existence.

>>76196291
You don't
In all likelihood you can't find like 20% on the map, you're an American

>>76202097
>/pol/
>neo-nazi militias

More like edgy 15 year olds

>>76202045
Ukraine has 40 million people. We live in a world where you do not need natural resources or industry to be economically successful. And Ukraine does have some strategic value if you do want to think of the world in terms of that, they have a lot of farmland.

>>76201951
>Your arrogance is what will cause our decline on the global stage
that's the main long term goal of putin and Russia's foreign policy, so of course americans don't agree.
I wonder how it would work if america and someone else, say spain or something (just to pick a more "neutral" country) had exactly the same power and joining either of them had the same benefits, would everyone go to america's side in such situation, where they have full autonomy to choose and no economical pressure?