>pic related will never be a thing why live?

good

Thank God

>>73133968
there are better ways to show the world you're a cuck

>>73134358
This. I'd be ashamed to show that thing anywhere

>>73133968
EU needs to be way closer, but I don't see a point of a full on de jure federation.

>>73134987
>EU needs to be way closer
Fuck off discount Slav.

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>>73134987
>EU needs to be way closer

>>73135015
Why are Austrians so inherently weird and awkward ?

>>73133968
I'm working on it

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>>73135103
What is wrong with being weird and awkward?

FUCK EU I DONT WANT NIGGERS MUSLIMS AND FAGS IN MY COUNTRY

>>73133968
>Passport to the European Union

guess they spelled The Communist Manifesto wrong

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>>73135205

>>73135040
piigs (including you) collapses
we get eaten by Russia
real Europe becomes a backwater irrelevant shithole

Nice

ITT: edgy nationalists

>>73135642
Nationalism, like socialism is good in moderation.

I don't see why people think you can't be patriotic and pro-EU at the same time.

>>73135717
Because being pro-EU means being a traitor by default.

>>73135717
Being pro-EU means that you're more loyal to an artificial thing made in the '90s (before that, it was only an economic cooperation) than to your own country

>>73135741
How so?

>"renovation of this ethnographic museum funded by EU"
>see, they're stealing our forests!

>>73135809
Because it is an anti-nation superstate that wants to abolish all the individual nations of Europe and replace them.

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>>73133968
>European Federalists
>"I want a continent sized nuclear armed yugoslavia run by Merkel & friends"

>>73135889
how is that a bad thing?

>>73135717
>socialism is good in moderation
step into the helicopter please


ITT: globalist commies
the EU was a mistake we need a new world war

>>73135911
Hello Ahmed.

>>73135943
not even close

>>73135889
>anti-nation
> wants to abolish all the individual nations of Europe

>talking out of your ass

Nation =/= country

>>73135805
>being loyal to a random country you happened to be born in
I never understood this meme

>>73135968
You are the same as them in spirit. You want to destroy the greatest civilisations on Earth and replace them with a cosmopolitan shithole.

>>73135992
Without the state the nation will die. The nation and the state feed into one another. That is why they have to destroy the nation state first, so that they can wage a war on the nations themselves. EU has the same agenda as the Soviets in the destruction of individual peoples.

>>73136024
Because that country and nation gave you everything. You are of it.

Soon

@73136024
low quali bait

you don't even deserve a (You)

>>73135912
>Communists should all die, but I think there should be some regulation to prevent shit like the 2008 economic crisis
>wow, fucking gommie

Nice

>>73136231
The only thing you disagree with the Communists on is which state to serve and how much of the economy should be run by it. You agree with them on everything else.

How are you any better than a Soviet?

>>73136092
My country gave me shit, which is why I moved to a country that gave me education and later a well paid job.
I mean I am well aware that a country is not supposed to be giving you anything, but only creating opportunities which you can use. The only opportunity my 'home' country gave me was an EU passport, which I made a very good use of.
So yea, fuck randomly assigned countries at birth. I prefer to have a choice.

>>73136271
Ah ok, you are a rootless cosmopolitan and a traitor to your home country. That explains your stupid opinion then.

>>73135910
What could possibly go wrong?

>>73136312
But in my opinion, your opinion is stupid, and you think the opposite, so whatever. We can be arguing about it forever.
I am soon to receive my British passport and I was hoping to give up my old eu one, but since brexit is becoming a thing I might keep it just as a backup plan.

>>73136263
Are you saying that health insurance and regulations are literally the same as stealing everyone's property and installing a totalitarian regime with no regard for human rights and lives?

>>73136417
>but since brexit is becoming a thing I might keep it just as a backup plan.
Lol, you are not even loyal to the country you chose.

How shallow are you to spit both in your home country's face and the one which took you in?

>>73136440
I am saying that the EU does not care about human rights or protecting European people, but instead seeks to crush their desires for democracy and nationality. In reality, the only difference between a European Federalist and a Soviet is that the Soviets had an army to enforce their will, while the EU does not yet have that capacity.

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>>73136263
>Social Democracy is the same as Bolshevism

>>73136550
I don't need to be loyal to anything. I am not a dog with a need to have a master.

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>>73136550
>I am saying that the EU does not care about human rights or protecting European people, but instead seeks to crush their desires for democracy and nationality. In reality, the only difference between a European Federalist and a Soviet is that the Soviets had an army to enforce their will, while the EU does not yet have that capacity.

countries are a meme
be loyal to your community
your government and the thugs they pay dont give a shit about you
nothing beyond a neighborhood means anything, except how they play on fucking you over

>>73136550
>EU does not care about human rights or protecting European people
>crush their desires for democracy

This is all baseless bullshit. The EU parliament is directly elected and the commission is made of of member states' ministers, so the EU is as democratic as its members.

And don't fucking lecture me about the USSR.

>>73136596
Yes you do need to be loyal to something. You are a human and only sociopaths have no loyalties.

>>73136587
EU is not democratic. It uses a method of indirect election done by politicians electing other politicians. The body which is elected by the people has no power to introduce or repeal legislation, only to agree or disagree with whim of the rulers. This is called a rubber stamp assembly.

>>73136659
The EU hates the European people, that much is a certainty.

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>>73136727

>>73136659
>implying the EU cares about democracy and nationality

>French and Dutch reject EU Constitution
>Repackage it and subvert referenda in those countries
>Irish reject it
>Make us vote again

>>73136714
>The EU parliament is directly elected
And has no legislative powers idiot. It is literally a rubber stamp assembly. Others like it in the world are the parliaments of China and Iran. Nothing more than rubber stamps for the leadership.

>member states' ministers
Politicians electing politicians is not a democracy. Otherwise you would make the claim that China is a democracy. Is that your claim?

>And don't fucking lecture me about the USSR.
Why, because it hits too close to home that you are exactly the same sort of traitor to your people as those Lithuanians who sided with the Communists?

>>73136550
>their desires for democracy and nationality
Kek. If you think the individual goverments of the european countries give a rats ass about either of these things you are deluded to the point of suspect mental illness.

>>73136550
>the only difference between a European Federalist and a Soviet is that the Soviets had an army to enforce their will
Well and theSoviet Union being build by military conquest and opression while membership in the EU is wholly voluntary, but I'm sure some Ahmed leeching off in austria knows all about the Soviet Union.

>>73135992
That's the ultimate goal of the EU, to do away with nationalism and individualism.

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>>73133968
It will be.

I will will it into existence just to come here and watch the massive butthurt :^)

Screencap this post.

There will be an EU federation led by a Bulgarian :^)

>>73136868
>Politicians electing politicians is not a democracy
What are you babbling about? Thats how the ministers of virtually all european states are appointed. Politcians get voted into parliament and then appoint ministers.

>>73136868
>ministers aren't democratic
So Austria isn't a democracy either?

>Why, because it hits too close to home that you are exactly the same sort of traitor
No, because I was born in a post-USSR state and know a thing or two more about it than a fucking 1st-worlder

>>73137038
>Austria
>First world

>>73136868
>And has no legislative powers idiot.
Thats factually wrong, it has legislative power on finances, home affairs and a select more topics of EU institutions. It also has veto power on all legislation in the EU.
Be against the EU all you want, but you people need to stop lying through your teeth about how it works or stop pretending you know shit about it instead of just aping /pol/tard circlejerking.

>>73136988
nationalism and individualism are opposite each other

>>73136988
Nationalism is the anti-thesis of individualism btw

>>73136844
Don't you think thats more a problem with your national goverment than the EU? Its no like the Eu did that, its your own national goverment thats corrupt as fuck if it "subverted" the will of the people. How would it be better to have a corrupt goverment outside the EU than inside it?

If anything the EU could be a perfect accountability instrument to deal with corrupt goverments, because apparently you couldn't vote them out of office for it.

>>73136943
>If you think the individual goverments of the european countries give a rats ass about either of these things you are deluded to the point of suspect mental illness.
It is easier to make some idiots in Vienna listen to the Austrian people than some idiots in Brussels. The closer power is to the people, the more democratic it tends to be. Hence why centralised countries (see Russia, China, Turkey as examples) tend towards autocracy.

>but I'm sure some Ahmed leeching off in austria knows all about the Soviet Union.
Ahmeds support the EU idiot. It is the reason they can cross into every single country with impunity. Because the EU fines the Italians and Greeks for border enforcement.

>Well and theSoviet Union being build by military conquest and opression while membership in the EU is wholly voluntary
The Soviets in 1924 made the exact same argument. Have you ever read the papers on nationality?

>>73137001
>What are you babbling about? Thats how the ministers of virtually all european states are appointed.
The difference is that the commission is another body to the EU parliament. The Commission is not sourced from elected officials. But instead nominated by regional governments at the recommendation of the EU bureaucracy and approved of by vote. This is more similar to how a Monarchy works than how a democracy does. As an example, Tsar Nicholas II appointed ministers after 1905 in this exact method of appointment and approval by the Duma. Russian Empire was not a democracy. Whereas for example in Austria the elected body sources the government itself.

Now, if you had political knowledge you would know this and understand why it is a problem.

>>73137038
>So Austria isn't a democracy either?
See above.

>No, because I was born in a post-USSR state
Literally not worth anything in this argument. You know nothing about the political structures of the USSR or the EU so you being born in a post-Communist state is as relevant as me being born in Austria.

>>73137104
>Thats factually wrong, it has legislative power on finances, home affairs and a select more topics of EU institutions
No, it does not. It does not have the power to introduce legislation. It only has a power of veto which is what I said.

>>73137295
>lalalala I can't hear you!1!

>>73137374
Make an argument or simply admit you are ignorant on political affairs.

>>73137295
>The difference is that the commission is another body to the EU parliament.
No its fucking not. Its a extension of the European Council, the Heads of State who appoint them and they are affirmed by the Parliament.

>The Commission is not sourced from elected officials
Yes it fucking is. How the fuck are the elected Heads of State NOT elected officials?

> But instead nominated by regional government
???????? How are regional goverments not elected officials?

So democratically elected goverments and heads of state are magically not elected officials and the democratically elected european parliament is also not elected officials just because you don't actually have a point?

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>>73135571
Spain and Ireland are not PIIGS anymore, we are ASPIRE now.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-03/piigs-era-draws-to-an-end-as-spain-ireland-aspire-for-new-badge

>>73137335
>It does not have the power to introduce legislation.
>The few other areas that operate the special legislative procedures are justice & home affairs, budget and taxation and certain aspects of other policy areas: such as the fiscal aspects of environmental policy. In these areas, the Council or Parliament decide law alone.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament#Legislative_procedure
Stop being such a lying shit, holy fuck.

>>73137411
I made my argument, you replied with the same baseless shit that was debunked already, that is not "making an argument". Why the fuck are you wasting your time?

austria was a mistake

>>73137501
Ay, glad to see that.

>>73137335
Is Wien Vienna?

>>73137415
>How the fuck are the elected Heads of State NOT elected officials?
The heads of state do not form the commission, they form the council. They do not partake in the commission. When somebody says they are not sourced it means, they do not partake in its affairs directly. For example, Merkel is sourced from the German Parliament. The Commission of the EU is not sourced from the European parliament.

>???????? How are regional goverments not elected officials?
Because there are two tiers in between them and the Commission in which there are no elections. It is similar to the Chinese system of elections, where local regions vote for officials, then these regional assemblies vote for the National Congress. Which then forms the administration.

>So democratically elected goverments and heads of state are magically not elected officials and the democratically elected european parliament is also not elected officials just because you don't actually have a point?
If you had some political knowledge and were not just an ignorant pro-EU hack you would understand why this is the case. I suggest you pick up a book on political systems, start with comparative politics to gain some insight for you my ignorant friend.

>>73137502
That is not how it operates in reality, that is what it simple says in treaty. In reality, the Commission has almost all the power of writing the budget, treating it as ordinary legislation. There is a difference between political theory and political practice you do know.

>>73137510
I'm watching a show and lecturing ignorant Europhiles. It is a good night.

>>73137597
Yes

>>73137295
>It is easier to make some idiots in Vienna listen to the Austrian people than some idiots in Brussels.
No its not. actually the other way around is easier because you have literally two ways to bend idiots in Brussels to your will, the EU parliamentary elections and your national elections, you only got one way in Vienna and if they decide to not listen, you are fucked.

>Because the EU fines the Italians and Greeks for border enforcement.
Once again with these retarded lies. The EU is FOR stricter border control. Its the NATIONS that are against it and keep violating EU law letting these people into europe.

>The Soviets in 1924 made the exact same argument.
No they didn't, don't be retarded and stop talking about shit you clearly know nothing about. The Soviets never let anyone a choice if they want to join or not.

>The Commission is not sourced from elected officials. But instead nominated by regional governments
So national goverments are not legitimate authorities in your eyes either, what is then? Should everything be run by direct referendum all the time all day? What a stupid and hypocritical complaint.

> This is more similar to how a Monarchy works
And literally every single parliamentary democracy in the world.

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>>73133968
Don't worry, everything is still on schedule.

>>73137815
When did it become Vienna? Why?

>>73137789
>The heads of state do not form the commission
They APPOINT the Commission.

>The Commission of the EU is not sourced from the European parliament.
No they are sourced by the national goverments, whats your point?

>For example, Merkel is sourced from the German Parliament
She is sourced by her party, technically and the ruling coalition. The exact same group that souces the Commissioner.

>Because there are two tiers in between them and the Commission in which there are no elections.
So Ministers are also undemocratic because in most countries they are a appointed by the Head of State, literally the exact same as the commissioners.

>That is not how it operates in reality, that is what it simple says in treaty
>hur dur it doesn't work the way it clearly works because that makes my baseless bullshit fall apart

>In reality, the Commission has almost all the power of writing the budget, treating it as ordinary legislation. There is a difference between political theory and political practice you do know.
No in reality the European Council has all the power and the Commissioners are just their standing representatives in the EU.

>>73137789
>They do not partake in the commission. When somebody says they are not sourced it means, they do not partake in its affairs directly. For example, Merkel is sourced from the German Parliament. The Commission of the EU is not sourced from the European parliament.
>>???????? How are regional goverments not elected officials?
>Because there are two tiers in between them and the Commission in which there are no elections.

EU Commissioner
Ruling Goverment of a Nation->Head of State->EU Commissioner

Minister of every parliamentary democracy in europe
Ruling Goverment->Head of State->Minister

>Somehow Commissioners are different because reasons
?????

>>73135910
I love that picture because of how true it is.

>>73137962
just try to thing how raging that austrianfag will be one day when he will be searching for his first job only to find out new employees are not democratically elected by whole corporation's staff, but by few individuals.

>>73138092
>anyone taking esperanto lessons
>true
Choose one

>>73137829
>And literally every single parliamentary democracy in the world.
In parliamentary democracy the parliament sources the executive. In the EU, the parliament does not do this at all. So it is nothing like a parliamentary democracy.

>the EU parliamentary elections and your national elections
Ah yes, because they really care about the opinions of a country which forms 2.4% of the total seats. They do care not at all and can ignore Austrians at their whim.

>The EU is FOR stricter border control
No, it is not. The EU is bringing in migrants, and refused the British naval proposal of sending back migrants who attempted to cross the Mediterranean as a deterrent. The EU also fined the Italian government for trying to stop migration.

>No they didn't
They did. Read Lenin's/Stalin's papers on nationality. he made the argument that the Soviet Union was a democratic union of nations in a voluntary union, and made lip service to national self determination. Same as the EU.

>So national goverments are not legitimate authorities in your eyes either, what is then?
I already explained why this arrangement is not democratic.

>>73137910
It means the same thing. Vienna is just the English coming from the Romance languages.

>>73138110
I have two jobs.

>>73138051
Electorate -> Parliament of a nation -> Executive

That is how a parliamentary democracy works.

Electorate -> Parliament of a nation -> Executive -> Council -> Commission

Two factors removed further from the electorate.

>>73137962
Ministers have to be sourced from the national parliaments, the EU parliament does not.

>>73138189
Wien is cooler

>>73138189
>In parliamentary democracy the parliament sources the executive
No, in a parliamentary democracy the Head of State appoints the ministers. You know, just like in the EU.

>Ah yes, because they really care about the opinions of a country which forms 2.4% of the total seats. They do care not at all and can ignore Austrians at their whim.
No they can't because your goverment needs to approve of all EU legislation over its commissioner.

> The EU is bringing in migrants
proof

>and refused the British naval proposal of sending back migrants who attempted to cross the Mediterranean as a deterrent
That is factually swrong becaus e towing them back is the standard MO of Frontex and has been for years.

>The EU also fined the Italian government for trying to stop migration.
Also factually wrong, in fact the opposite happenes that the EU bitches constantly about Italy letting refugees go unhindered through italy into the rest of europe.

>They did. Read Lenin's/Stalin's papers on nationality. he made the argument that the Soviet Union was a democratic union of nations in a voluntary union, and made lip service to national self determination. Same as the EU.
Literally how does that matter? They forced them into the Soviet Union with conquest, are you claiming the EU militarily or otherwise conquered Britain in 1973 or Croatia in 2014?

>I already explained why this arrangement is not democratic.
You haven't explained shit, you delcared it undemocratic because of reasons, and when it was pointed out that it works literally the same way as any national goverment, you just keep repeating that nonsense mantra with absolutely no argument.

>>73136727
>EU is not democratic. It uses a method of indirect election done by politicians electing other politicians. The body which is elected by the people has no power to introduce or repeal legislation, only to agree or disagree with whim of the rulers. This is called a rubber stamp assembly.

Darum isses doch gar nicht gegangen du duhmösi

>>73138292
If the EU were a democratic structure it would look like this in organisation.

Electorate -> EU Parliament -> EU executive.

Or if it used the US model.

Electorate -> EU Executive.

Surely you must see how different this is.

>>73138292
>Electorate -> Parliament of a nation -> Executive
You forgot the step for the actual minister. No parliamentary democracy has the parliament directly appoint the Ministers. The Head of State does this. In some european states, the Monarch does it formally.

So in reality its
Electorate -> Parliament of a nation -> Executive->Minister

And in the Eu its
Electorate -> Parliament of a nation -> Executive->Commissioner

You keep just making up lying bullshit here.
The Council as a group doesn't appoint the Commissioners. The individual heads of state do.

>>73138349
>No, in a parliamentary democracy the Head of State appoints the ministers. You know, just like in the EU.
Where do these ministers come from idiot? They are also from the parliament, and they can be removed by it at any times.

What do you mean? European citizenship is already is a thing. Just like on the Euro coins the member states kept their own coat of arms.

>>73138466
>Where do these ministers come from idiot? They are also from the parliament, and they can be removed by it at any times.
Oh wow. EXACTLY LIKE THE EU.
The EU parliament can dissolve the Commission with a 2/3rd majority.

And no, not in all democracies are the ministers PMs. But in the Eu they are. There were even plans to expand this to have the Commissioners be put directly on the top of the electoral list for their district during the parliamentary elections.

>>73138475
It's like you people only care about meaningless and superficial bullshit while you complete ly disregard the real state of affaires.

>>73138452
>No parliamentary democracy has the parliament directly appoint the Ministers
Formal procedure, you know in reality it is parliament choosing minsters.

Unlike the EU methodology.

>The EU parliament can dissolve the Commission with a 2/3rd majority.
In an actual democracy it is done with 1/2 because that entrenches the Commission from scrutiny. Especially as the EU parliament operates on a proportional system. It is divide and conquer, leaving the parliament powerless.

>>73138387
>Electorate -> EU Parliament -> EU executive.
>Or if it used the US model.
>Electorate -> EU Executive.
Thats not how it works anywhere. its the Head of State that appoints the minister and no one else. Thats what matters for how far removed from voter legitimacy are. of course you try to hide one crucial thing That the Commissioners are ALSO approved by the Eu parliament. So in reality its
Electorate_>EU Parliament_>Commissioners

>>73138611
No, because the Commissioners do not get sourced from parliament.

>>73138606
>Formal procedure, you know in reality it is parliament choosing minsters.
No its not. Its not the case in germany, and I know for fact its not the case in Austria either.
But it IS the case in the EU because the EU parliament has to approve of them, which national goverments don't for their ministers.

>In an actual democracy it is done with 1/2
No it isn't, it wildly differs from goverment to goverment, in many in the EU you can't do it at all. The Commission is scrutinized by the Parliament on literally everything they do becaus ethe parliament has to approve of every single law and the Commissioners can be replaced literally at any time by the Heads of their nation. So they have even TWO sources of accountability.

>>73138640
As many ministers of national goverments don't either. Whats your point?
Considering that many EU nations don't even have direct votes in their electoral process for the EU. it makes literally no difference.

What is this non-argument about? The people, including that Austrian, who critizise the EU for its lack of democratic representation oppose any further direct democratization because it would bolster the legitimacy of the union.

>>73138721
>which national goverments don't for their ministers.
National governments do when they form the government from the source of parliament. If a government does not have a majority they cannot simply appoint ministers at will. You should know this since it is basic coalition politics.

If you cannot get a majority in parliament through negotiations then your ministers cannot take office as the government will not survive a vote of no confidence.

>No it isn't
Yes it is. In a parliamentary democracy you can dissolve a government and thus remove ministers with a simple majority.

>>73138840
because right now you have ability to straight up ignore European laws without anything happening to you

>>73138840
Because I do not like my country being an irrelevant 2.4% of a union. There is nothing to benefit from it and only things to lose.

>>73138858
>Yes it is. In a parliamentary democracy you can dissolve a government and thus remove ministers with a simple majority.
Luckily for you that anon is wrong. A simple vote of no-confidence suffices to dissolve the commission too. Additionally to the national goverments who can make their commissioner step back if they choose.

>>73138858
>National governments do when they form the government from the source of parliament. If a government does not have a majority they cannot simply appoint ministers at will.
Nor can the Eu because they need a majority in the EU parliament (which is directly elected) to appoint the Commissioner. And they need to have a majority in their national parliament to be the goverment and have the ability to appoint one.
And no national goverment is going to force a dissolution of the goverment over one unliked minister. Don't be ridiculous.

>>73138973
>he thinks austria would be relevant outside the EU

>>73139076
It wouldn't matter then because we wouldn't be in a union with anyone. In the EU we can just be ignored. If we were our own country there is nobody to ignore us because the highest level of sovereignty rests in Austria.

>>73138874
People need to make up their fucking minds. Do they want the EU to be even more democratic? Then the parliament needs more power instead of the national representatives in the Commission.
Or do they want the EU to have no power, in which case it won't fulfill their arbitrarily high standards for "democracy" because the national goverments will decide everything,a nd according to that austrian, national goverments are not legitimate sources of political power because reasons.

>>73139140
>If we were our own country there is nobody to ignore us because the highest level of sovereignty rests in Austria.
Literally everyone would ignore you. In your own country the politciians won't ignore you anymore than they are right now with Eu or without. But the rest of the world would ignore your wishes and interests for sure, because what would you even do?

In the Eu you literally can't be ignored because you have a veto on literally everything with your head of state.

>>73139240
>In the Eu you literally can't be ignored because you have a veto on literally everything with your head of state.
But you just said they are ignoring us right now. So that is just another level of being ignored. Where is your logic?

>>73139140
In the union you have representation, in the union you have veto powers, in the union you form voting blocks. Outside the union, especially with a completely sovereign Germany with an independent monetary policy you would be nothing but a vassal state that would have to react and adjust to our whims.

>>73139347
>nothing but a vassal state that would have to react and adjust to our whims.
Or we could form a regional bloc, or form up with another major power, like we did historically. And in the EU our politicians take German orders. There is no balancing of power by being in it.

>>73139274
>But you just said they are ignoring us right now.
Actually its less being ignored because you now got two votes. Even if your national goverment ignores you (in which case that seems like a more urgent problem than the EU imo), you still got a vote on the EU parliament.

If both ignore you, then congratulations you just realised representative democracy is a hollow sham that is literally meaningless because you have no real control over your politicians anywhere in any country and it makes no difference at all where they make the decisions.

But you know what? In the EU you don't just have easily ignored 8 million austrians. You have over 500 million fellow europeans to team up with.

>>73139410
>Or we could form a regional bloc
With who? In what sort of regional block would Austria not be ignored if it can't even speak up for itself in a union where its closest cultural neighbour is a major factor?

>There is no balancing of power by being in it.
Yes, because people like you rather bitch about the EU instead of pressuring their goverment to make european intiaitves. Germany doesn't have that many votes, you could easily team up with the V4 or other countries to advance your interests. Much easier than without a EU.

>>73139410
You can do of these things within the union and get an a disproportionate amount of representation as well and the union is actually accountable to you.

What major power do you see yourself as an equal partner Russia? China?

>>73139410
>Or we could form a regional bloc
Which is literally what the EU is m8. And its a lot more benevolent and democratic than any other you are going to find.

>>73139578
No, the EU is an empire. Regional blocs are formed to counterbalance empires by smaller countries in which none of them can dominate.

>>73139569
Not as an equal power, but playing the powers off against each other to maintain interests. That is how it was done historically.

>>73139519
>With who?
v4 nations would be the obvious choice.

>>73139519
>But you know what? In the EU you don't just have easily ignored 8 million austrians. You have over 500 million fellow europeans to team up with.
500 million in which we barely share any interests so it is easy to divide and conquer. What interest do I have in common with a Spanish person or a Lithuanian or a Swede or an Irishman? There is very little to bind together which is why it does not work that way. We're not one nation, it is not like in the USA where different states have common features between the populations.

>>73133968
>English language
top kuk

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>>73139733
back at it again eternal habsburg

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>>73136727

>If you are not loyal to your country you're a sociopath who is not loyal to anything

This is why nationalism makes you look fucking retarded, you fucking retard.
Those whose loyalties are beholden to imaginary constructed lines on a map or to a flag do not deserve their humanity.

Here is my gift to you. Identify what exactly about your country it is that you love, deeply examine those qualities and if they are truly worthy of admiration be loyal to them instead. Otherwise you make yourself trivial.

>>73139773
>Yes you do need to be loyal to something.
At each level of humanity you have to have some ties. Family loyalty, wider group loyalty eg. religion or local community and then national loyalty. Each of these also depends on each other in order to continue to exist.

>>73139733
>What interest do I have in common with a Spanish person or a Lithuanian or a Swede or an Irishman?
Immigration would come to mind as a immediate issue where certainly most Eu citizens are concerned about and we have the same interests.

>>73139733
>Regional blocs are formed to counterbalance empires by smaller countries in which none of them can dominate.
Literally won't ever happen. Any block with germany would have germany dominating. And any block east of germany without germany would have russia making them their bitch or becoming muricas bitch. How do you imagine that to work?

>v4 nations would be the obvious choice.
The V4 are irrelevant on the world stage and even on the EU stage they can't compete with anyone of relevance. And what binds you together with them?

>>73139890
>Immigration would come to mind as a immediate issue where certainly most Eu citizens are concerned about and we have the same interests.
Except this is not true. For example some EU nations want controls on internal migration, while others do not. Others want mass migration from outside of the EU while others do not.

>And any block east of germany without germany would have russia making them their bitch or becoming muricas bitch. How do you imagine that to work?
Russia is not strong enough to dominate like that anymore. You also forget that the Americans are not going anywhere.

>And what binds you together with them?
Not wanting to be dominated by German interests would be a good example.

>most people in Britain have an Irish grandparent
>we left the EU but keep EU citizenship through our Irish passports
>can fuck off if it all goes wrong

Best of both worlds

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>A German and Austrian defend the EU and promote federalisation.

>>73140106
I spent the entire thread attacking the EU though.

>>73139773
excellent post

>>73140106
>irish reading comprehension

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>>73140122
Divide and Conquer Adolf, Divide and Conquer.

>>73139996
>Others want mass migration from outside of the EU while others do not.
I can't think of any Eu country where the population wants mass immigration from outside the EU. Literally where is that supposed to be?
And thats what we talked about, the Eu lets us voice our opinion as a combined group of european people. Because individually our goverments will ignore us. but the EU has many goverments, each of which has a veto and could take up such a call and champion it.
We HAVE these things in common, we just need to actually want to work together instead of chasing pipe dreams of national greatness in isolation.

>Not wanting to be dominated by German interests would be a good example.
Well there you go, you already got a political project in common with your fellow europeans. Now go out and put pressure on your govemerment and become politically active to have your Commissioner, Head of State and EU MPs work together with other MPs from these countries (in the parliament they already are, fyi) to counter-act german interests. because yes, thats a problem. but its a problem because no one else is fucking doing anything in the EU, not because germany can't be countered.

And you said you have nothing binding you to other Eu nations and their populations and here we already have two things. Mass immigration and balancing germany.

>>73135910
Iberian union when?

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>>73140237
>I can't think of any Eu country where the population wants mass immigration from outside the EU.
Ireland is an example.

>Mass immigration and balancing germany.
Germany is institutionally powerful because of the EU, the Euro gives Germany massive power over the entire EU economy for example. Meanwhile the German leadership is at best reluctant to do anything to deal with migration.

>>73139996
>Russia is not strong enough to dominate like that anymore.
The butthurt belt would disagree.
And they are not entirely wrong. There is China too though.

>You also forget that the Americans are not going anywhere.
Even if that were true, and I don't think it is. I rather band together with fellow europeans to fight for our european interests than suck muricas dick forever. If thats the entirety of your aspirations for your country, to suck burgers for protection then I can see why you would oppose the EU. But I don't want that for my country, to be forever the slave of a distant overlord utterly apathetic to our problems who casually fucks up shit in our neighbourhood because he couldn't give less of a fuck about our stability and well-being. I rather share power with frenchmen and poles than that.
Weird as they are. at least they are my fellows.

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>tfw this will never be an official travel document

>>73140429
>Ireland is an example.
That graph says they are positive to immigration, that doesn't mean they like mass immigration, what a stupid example. I'm positive towards immigration too, immigration is a good thing. But like all good things it becomes a bad thing when uncontrolled and in too large quantity, and every EU country you will find the majority of citizens agree with this. And the EU has lots of people, you should know how coalition politics work. Form fucking coalitions in the EU.

>>73140603
>what a stupid example.
Non-EU migration is on a mass level. It asked their opinion of current non-EU migration. So not stupid at all. It is exactly a good example.

>>73139869

Again, you look at the product of ideals and attach your loyalty to them instead of the ideals that make them worthy of said attachment in the first place.

What about family is it that makes you loyal to them? It is not the shared DNA between you, it is the bond you forged in proximity to each other centered around ideals similar to love or compassion or understanding. The same love and compassion an adopted child may feel for their adopted parents and that an abused child may not have for their biological ones. This, as you said, extends to your community.

>>73140689
And from community to the nation. Without the nation the community will collapse. Without the community, the family is exposed and weak because as the old saying goes, it takes many hands to raise a child.

>brits talking about going to war with spain 4 days after triggering article 50
you now understand why the eu is a good thing

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>>73140037
I don't have an Irish grandparent and the best thing I can get is some shitty Indian lifetime visa thing

>>73140429
>Germany is institutionally powerful because of the EU
No its not. germany is influential in the EU, but a coalition of other countries can, and has repeadetly in the past, counter germanies interest in a way you couldn't outside the EU.

>Meanwhile the German leadership is at best reluctant to do anything to deal with migration.
Except for how it was the german leadership that traveled all over north africa for years to make agreements with the local dictators to close up the immigration routes over the mediterrain, which only got fucked up by the frenchs little intervention in Lybia.
Or how it was the german leadership that keeps supporting the EU parliaments calls for a stronger and real coast and borderguard that can actually keep people out of our common border. Or how germany was trying to move others to establish a refugee camp at the turkish-greek border to prevent them from coming further into europe.
Well, germany got countered on that proposal for sure.
Don't giv me shit about germany anything about immigration when germany was one of the only countries that DID SHIT about the immigration crisis while all the other faggots where to busy virtue signalling and pretending their not doing fucking anything and letting greece sit on the problem was some sort of political stance.

>>73140429
>the Euro gives Germany massive power over the entire EU economy for example

You have no clue what you are talking about. The euro is controlled by the ECB which is comprised of the member states of the Euro area and every single state has the same vote, Malta, Austria, etc.

Right now, the ECB is involved in a massive bond-buying scheme that is completely against the will and interest of Germany.

The head of the German central bank openly calls it a disgrace but Germany is being overpowered by other states.

You don't realize how powerful Germany would be if it controlled its own currency, all your little shit Your shit currencies would be just as dependant but like this you wouldn't have a vote on the board of the German central bank.

>>73137501
pigs are called like that because of the high public dficit+debt+low gdp/capita not for the growth

>>73140648
>Non-EU migration is on a mass level.
No its not. WTF are you on about? Immigration isn't rfugee waves. Thats Asylum and refugee politics not immigration. Immigration is the the people that come here to study and work from abroad.

>>73140785
>Except for how it was the german leadership
That was the Italian leadership, the one the German leadership forced from power as part of its finance agenda and replaced with the Eurocrats.

>>73140840
>The euro is controlled by the ECB which is comprised of the member states of the Euro area and every single state has the same vote, Malta, Austria, etc.
You have to be an idiot to think this is how it works in reality. Germany has the most influence over the bank because Germany is the largest economy. It is that simple. Euro also benefits the German economy at the expense of other member states. It is also the German leadership which pushes to maintain this awful currency alongside France.

>>73140856
And that is on a mass level. We are talking millions of people every single year. And I am not talking about refugees, I am talking about legal migration.

>>73140959
>You have to be an idiot to think this is how it works in reality.
Not an argument.

>>73141021
I gave an argument stupid Turk.

>>73135103
I thought that was the Germans?

>>73140959
The Euro was imposed by France as a condition for the reunification of Germany to keep our monetary policy in check and we had to accept it.

>>73140959
>That was the Italian leadership
Berlusconi did it, and Angela Merkel did it too. But of course you people are too busy jerking off to /pol/ bullshit rather than actually paying attention to news, which gave her shit for it for months back in 2013 for her traveling around to north african dictators to prevent exactly what happened.

>>73140959
>And that is on a mass level.
Its on a mass level Eu wide... wat. Thats not what literally anyone means with mass immigration. by your logic we should have no immigration ever.

>>73141047
I know it was, but in reality it did not turn out that way.

>>73135910
>so much shared history, like all those times we tried to kill each other
The Chinese and the Indians had a shit ton of internal wars too.

>become a bigger more unstable version of Yugoslavia
Yugoslav wars happened because balkanites were afraid of becoming a minority in another country. It's a completely different situation. And besides, Britain just peacefully left the union, unlike us.

Basically, it's a stupid pic.

fuck europe and the whites

>>73141059
>by your logic we should have no immigration ever.
I don't want any immigration from outside of Europe. The civilisations involved are too different to allow that to be successful.

>Berlusconi did it, and Angela Merkel did it too
Berlusconi did, Merkel did not.

>But of course you people are too busy jerking off to /pol/ bullshit
I am not a user of /pol/.

>>73141094
India is not a real country either, it is a creation of the British Empire. Before Britain arrived it was dozens of different Kingdoms divided on nationality, religion, culture and languages.

>>73141198
>it was dozens of different Kingdoms divided on nationality, religion, culture and languages.
You mean like most european nations?

>>73141321
Yes, and in an ideal world Germany, Spain and Russia would be split up as well, for example.

>>73141344
What utterly delusional nonsense. Why are anti-Euers always such mental basket cases.
The Eu is hugely flawed, no wonder when we never get it properly reformed when its critics are mostly delusional children like this that want all european nations dissolved and us returned to a state of small feudal enclaves fighting for resources and wells.

>>73141450
You just don't like being confronted with the truth of the matter.

>all european nations
Not all.

>>73141153
THIS

I can't wait until Europe fulfills its destiny as the world's first muslim superstate

>>73141511
>You just don't like being confronted with the truth of the matter.
What truth? Your opinion on all nations having to be dissolved is not a truth, its a ridiculous idea to want to ake europe utterly impotent and a playball in the geopolitics of the world.

>>73141665
>its a ridiculous idea to want to ake europe
When will you understand that there is no Europe. There are many different nations in Europe and your constant attempts to undermine these and create a superstate flies against the will of democracy and the peoples of almost all member states.

>What truth? Your opinion on all nations having to be dissolved is not a truth
You want to dissolve the nations by having them surrender to the will of the EU. How are you any different than an American or Russian in this way?

>>73134358
Yeah, your flag for ex

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ITT: 1 Austrian anti-EUer vs non-/pol/

The EU looks great for countries that just leech money from it BUT

Sure, pro-EUs will say that it's just 'investment', but post-socialist countries need much more work than 'investment'.

Something like Marshal's Plan, but also with replacing corrupt officials that would just take all the money for themselves

>>73141762
>flies against the will of democracy
Its hilarious to me that you probably genuinly don't see the irony of declaring yourself in your one opinion the arbiter of what the "will of the people" is and then declaring it to fly in the face of democracy.

>>73141762
>You want to dissolve the nations by having them surrender to the will of the EU
I want them to have a common aegis of the EU in which all european regions and cultures can govern themselves under their special needs and traditions, in safety because to the outside they are united as one european power.

>>73141898
>in which all european regions and cultures can govern themselves under their special needs and traditions, in safety because to the outside they are united as one european power.
If they are united they will cease to exist. The only way to protect is to be separate states otherwise there will be a destruction of identity.

>>73141887
I agree there needs to be more directed investment and construction projects in the EU. The simple "we give you money, do something with it", is a painful stopgap measure that needs to be overhauled.
No sane person will deny that the Eu has many many flaws and is in dire need of reforming.

>>73141991
>If they are united they will cease to exist.
No they don't. They don't need to be represented in the world stage to exist and live according to their traditions and culltures.
We manage this in our nation states of today, there is no reason to not manage it in this larger scale.

>The only way to protect is to be separate states otherwise there will be a destruction of identity.
This is proven false by the reality we live in, in which many many cultures in europe have preserved their identity over centuries of national union.

Back to /pol/ you edgy degenerates. You sit on your ass at home enjoying a comfy life, guess what, itd all be gone if we give birth to a nationalistic europe again. Youd go to war for nonsense and youd lose friends, family, maybe even your kids. Its not worth it.

>>73141887
The European structural funds have already exceeded the budget of the Marshal plan and are considered to be the biggest transfer of wealth in human history, mate.
>corrupt officials
The European Union has strict criteria and has actually withheld funds in the past because of the slow fight against corruption.

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>>73142014
>>73142156

yeah, but it's just bleeding money.

look at the countries that take all the money away from richer countries: most of them are post-socialist countries, with the exception of shitholes like Greece, Portugal, microstates and EU capitals like Belgium and Lux.

What is the point of keeping eastern euro countries in the EU, anyway?

it just scares w european countries like the UK away.

and the Eastern euro countries haven't improved, either

>>73142082
>go back to /pol/
>degenerates

>>73142082
Now we can sit on assess and watch everything go to shit hmmm very good alternative

>>73142156
>The European structural funds have already exceeded the budget of the Marshal plan and are considered to be the biggest transfer of wealth in human history, mate.
You misunderstand him. He's saying that just transferring money isn't enough. it takes directed construction and work to build them up, just handing over money isn't a solution.

I mean, the Marshall Plan didn't actually do that, so i dunno what he means with that comparison.

>>73142080
>They don't need to be represented in the world stage to exist and live according to their traditions and culltures.
yes they do. Look at nations which live inside the borders of other states. They are under constant cultural assault.

>We manage this in our nation states of today
Lol, no we do not. Look at Spain and its suppression of Catalonians and Basques, or how France has almost wiped out dozens of different local languages and cultures and in a few decades they will be gone because only older people remember them. Or how in a few decades there will be no Sorbs left in Germany. Or how Gaelic is almost extinct in the UK. That is what happens when nations have to coexist in the same borders, they are slowly absorbed by the larger one.

> in which many many cultures in europe have preserved their identity over centuries of national union.
This was prior to the modern age, before mass movements of people or easy means of communication or distance.

>>73142082
this "comfortable" life gives me no joy. I don't take much pleasure from having lots of material goods
all I do is sit he and watch as my country degenerates (i hate how /pol/tards have ruined this word) into a bland, multicultural shithole

>>73142197
>What is the point of keeping eastern euro countries in the EU, anyway?
It made Britain feel important when they forced the rapid east expansion down everyones throat to please the U.S. and it helped dump the Euros value even lower for german exports.
Thats pretty much it.
It helps our honorary germanosphere bro Czechia too, lets not forget.
>it just scares w european countries like the UK away.
Then they can get fucked. I don't like the entitled shitters in poland either, but they are european countries and if we want to get anywhere, we need to help eachother and help the weaker ones among us to get up so they can be a asset in the future. But that would need more directed contruction, true enough.

>>73136440
>he fell for the property rights meme

>>73142280
>Look at Spain and its suppression of Catalonians and Basques
You mean those two regional cultures who still have such a strong cultural dientity after centuries? Those Catalonia and Basques?

> or how France has almost wiped out dozens of different local languages and cultures and in a few decades
Yeah because france actively pursued a policy of erdication of regional culture, while the Eu is spending untold sums on promoting and preserving them.

>>73142280
>Or how Gaelic is almost extinct in the UK.
It was almost extinct before the UK even existed.

>>73142458
>while the Eu is spending untold sums on promoting and preserving them.
It spends money on street signs, while promoting policies which destroy the cultures such as mass movements of people. It does not make up for it.

>>73142527
Except for all the money spend on funding language schools, protecting trademarks of regional specialties and giving money for cultural associations aimed at preserving and promoting these cultures.

>>73142592
And yet the percentages keep going down because of some of the biggest policies of the EU. Movement of peoples and mass migration into the EU from outside of it. You can't preserve a culture while flooding the places the people who are of it live with foreigners.

>>73142202
What exactly goes to shit for you, Slovak? Your country has gained so much from the EU, what exactly does bother you? Are there millions of immigrants in your country? I somehow doubt. The gypsies you have, are they brought from the EU? Could Slovakia alone defend itself?

>>73142657
>and mass migration into the EU from outside of it
Which is not even remotly a EU matter because the Eu has literally no legal influence on national laws on outside-EU immigration.

>>73142657
>You can't preserve a culture while flooding the places the people who are of it live with foreigners.
Which no one is doing outside of your angry delusions.

>>73142705
>Which no one is doing outside of your angry delusions.
You deny that there are mass movements of people occurring?

>Which is not even remotly a EU matter because the Eu has literally no legal influence on national laws on outside-EU immigration.
Yes it does because there are EU regulations on what laws an be applied and there are treaties which also cover it.

>>73142823
>You deny that there are mass movements of people occurring?
Yeah travel happens. How is that mass movement of people in a sense that would displace regional culture?

>>73142823
>Yes it does because there are EU regulations on what laws an be applied and there are treaties which also cover it.
There aren't. The Eu literally can not and does not tell anyone how to conduct its third party border.

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>leave thread for 3 hours
>come back
>Austrian niggers is still here posting

>>73142960
>How is that mass movement of people in a sense that would displace regional culture?
Because if you bring enough people to another place they change it to their culture.

>The Eu literally can not and does not tell anyone how to conduct its third party border.
http://www.politico.eu/article/commission-wants-to-make-eu-countries-pay-for-not-accepting-refugees/

So making monetary threats is not anything like enforcing certain policies?

>>73143064
>random unsourced newspaper make s aclaim about someting the EU commission allegedly wants
Kek. Yeah, now I'm convinced.

>>73143276
>Never heard of politico
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politico

What?

Also, you can just google it and find a hundred other sources on the same exact policy or things from various governments attacking the policy.

>>73143064
Except "taking refugees" means here not immigration, but to detain and process them for deportation. The plan was never to keep any of them.

Of course besides the icnonvenient little fact you try to gloss over that the Eu DIDN'T actually do that.

>>73143388
It doesn't matter if they did or not, it just matters that is shows the EU in fact does have border policies. Which you denied it did.

>>73143438
>It doesn't matter if they did or not, it just matters that is shows the EU in fact does have border policies
Except it doesn't show that at all. in fact it shows that right now it DOESN'T have any input on third party immigration.

>>73143469
No, it shows that the EU has a border policy and actively tries to enforce it.

>>73141887
>>73142014
>"we give you money, do something with it"
That's not how it works. Look at that pic, Bulgaria is the poorest member and yet it doesn't really get much money. You need to apply with serious corruption-free projects to get EU money, it's not a blank cheque. Older members are good at this, but Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia are only getting used to it.

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Remain can still win.

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>>73134358
this

>>73135192
classic slovakia

>>73135910
Yes, that would be perfecto