What does /int/ think of human sacrifice and the Aztec Empire?

niggers doing nigger shit

>>69724111
A mighty and proud civilization.

subhumans

Long forgotten practice that should return on its greatest glory back again.
I don't think they sacrificed as many people as modern textbooks make it seem, non the less it was a nice way to prevent overpopulation.
I unironically think that misery was greater in places like France compared to Tenochtitlan.

I think, if the aztecs had been left alone, their culture could possibly have grown to cover most of the thin strips between the americas

As for the sacrifice?
That shit was messed up, but i doubt they would have let go of it before they were toppled

>>69724111

Conquistadors should have exterminated them completely instead of making rape babies i.e. modern mexicans

very interesting. it just an ancient dogma and ritual and shit. its fucking dumb if you bring up some moral compass for it

>>69724550
but spaniards are rape babies themselves, is a custom.

>>69724111
It was stupid

They sacrificed hot women

File: images.png (167KB, 500x503px) Image search: [Google]

167KB, 500x503px

>>69724111
>What does /int/ think of human sacrifice
pic related i guess
yes i'm a relativist

>>69724111
their society went to shit due to lack of sacrifices

File: sunglasses.jpg (9KB, 170x143px) Image search: [Google]

9KB, 170x143px

There's literally nothing wrong with killing your enemies or culling subugated ppl.

Ppl will die anyway, so why not let the best ppl, your ppl live and others perish?

True warrior society. American civilization had a huge lag, since tribes reached those parts way after the old world were colonized and already headed towards the neolithicum.

The Aztecs were on par with ancient civilizations, but to their misfortune the old world progressed far ahead.

Still, it was a dynamic culture. Sub-saharan Africa was filled with only copying or static cultures, not to mention the Abos, who actually managed to regress from the settler culture.

Would have been nice to see where could Aztecs haven gotten without a foreign invasion.

aztec sacrificed their own children and members of their own society too

>>69724111
it builds character, we should bring it back

>>69724111
they did because sacrifices kept the sun going.

>>69726450
t. Gengis "Baghdad Basher" Khan

File: 1481514458427.png (75KB, 935x553px)

75KB, 935x553px

>>69724164
>>69724296
this

>Muh gods command to not kill my enemies but capture and offer them in sacrifice
>Muh gods command to surrender if my commander is captured
>Muh gods forbid me to use siege weapons or any other kind of non first-hand combat to capture a position

As much as I would have liked to see them fight with cannons and steel weapons, they literally deserved what they got, they captured Cortes twice but ended losing him in Spanish retaliations.

>>69724111
They were savages and cannibals literally worse than niggers

File: rack-engraved-illustration-image-victim-being-tortured-medieval-middle-ages-england-uk-victorian-book-51828895.jpg (295KB, 1300x989px) Image search: [Google]

295KB, 1300x989px

>>69724111
Pretty barbaric.
Unlike... you know

>>69724111
The sacrifice part would have been ok if they did it as a pretext to cull degenerates and other undesirables.

I once read that there were teams of men competing in some sort of sport about which team could have the honor to be sacrificed. Sounds pretty retarded and seems like a counter to survival of the fittest, sacrificing physically fit young men.

>>69726660
this was before the age of evolution
they were trying to save the sun

>>69726622
th-that was DIFFERENT

File: siege.png (69KB, 361x474px)

69KB, 361x474px

>>69726603
horrible warriors

File: images.jpg (99KB, 600x450px) Image search: [Google]

99KB, 600x450px

>>69726450
>Ppl will die anyway, so why not let the best ppl, your ppl live and others perish?
that wasn't the exact point of the sacrifices though
aztecs performed blood magic. sometimes a really big wish (such as a particularly harsh drought being stopped) would require the finest lad or lass to be killed and his/her blood spilled: even the ruler would shed blood from his tongue into a basket so his blood would be mixed to the sacrifices
but yeah killing your enemies instead of keeping them prisioners and having to feed and take care of them sounds like a great idea, doesn't it Himmler?

>>69726450
Good thing to see someone getting it, even more impressive it's a Hungarian.

>>69726622
download from dreamstime.com

>>69726691
seems two smallpox outbreaks can really turn tides

I've heard that the cities were more than overcrowded, so at times feeding that many people could be a problem, so you had sacrifices with a religious pretext. Not sure how true that is, but sort of makes sense

>>69724474
Aztec empire was already too big. They had trouble with feudal tribes rebellions.

>>69726450
sacrifices were also: conquer for us or be sacrificed.. pretty smaht

>>69724111
that sun does NOT look impressed. This is why the aztecs failed.

>>69726762
because of how close their enemies and allies were they were able to exact the price of conquest simply by having proxy wars, sacrifice were not a material necesity per se it supported their hierarchy

>>69726771
Are you talking about the tribes they kept alive just so they could have a source of sacrifice?

I don't know the specifics, but weren't they the alpha dog in the area?

>>69724111
spaniards are more savage tho

>>69726856
yes that's why everyone hated them and make the conquista easier as fuck to the spaniards

>>69726856
>weren't they the alpha dog in the area?
sorta, one tribe was able to resist them for a fairly long time can't remember which one but it a factor was that they had the ability to use copper.

>>69726771
>They had trouble with feudal tribes rebellions.
They actually expected them to rebel, just so they could wage war again and capture more warriors for sacrifice. That's the reason they didn't build any kind of fortress in the conquered regions and as the Spaniards noted they didn't even leave military garrisons.

>>69726910
Well, yeh, obviously, but i thought they were militarily superior enough to keep them down

>>69726919
What did they use the copper for?
Just regular spears and stuff?

>>69727001
axes, armor, spears, etc. Also, they really fucking hated the aztecs.

File: Set_of_Mesoamerican_bronze_axes_2.jpg (299KB, 1606x1004px) Image search: [Google]

299KB, 1606x1004px

>>69726919
It wasn't copper, but bronze, and it was quite common in Mesoamerica.

>>69727001
garland wars kept their enemies poorer but not necessary less people since they needed them for making food for them

>>69726983
good post

>>69727065
why didn't the aztec make bronze axes/swords?

File: fuck ow.jpg (42KB, 736x256px) Image search: [Google]

42KB, 736x256px

>>69727090
They had obsidian which is way sharper than bronze, so they probably didn't see a need to use anything else for swords.

File: shiggy.png (7KB, 88x53px) Image search: [Google]

7KB, 88x53px

>>69724111
>I seriously hope you guys don't do this

>>69724111
I would probably hate being sacrificed

>>69727090
I think i heard somewhere that some of the weapons they used were supposed to be holy

But if they hadn't, i guess they'd be toppled by another people that would become the new alpha dog

File: 1514625039_61b6dd1728.jpg (114KB, 425x500px) Image search: [Google]

114KB, 425x500px

>>69726002
oh shit is that why indos are so ugly

File: wew.png (159KB, 250x250px) Image search: [Google]

159KB, 250x250px

>>69727141

>>69727090
they like blunt to capture
they didn't go to wars to kill everyone

obsidian is rarely used since you would maim and they might die

File: 10670174_10202842059359288_6891001359578952152_n.jpg (35KB, 540x540px) Image search: [Google]

35KB, 540x540px

>>69724164
>leaf filth thinking its opinion matters
>>69724296
80% chance is a t*rkroach posting.

File: Codex_Fejervary_Mayer_page_38_detail.png (512KB, 758x359px) Image search: [Google]

512KB, 758x359px

>>69727090
They certainly used axes, but as other anons said they preferred the obsidian edged sword for prestige/ritual purposes. They didn't use bronze swords for the same reason people didn't use them in the Old World: bronze is too hard and lacks the flexibility of iron to remain together after a few hard hits and same goes for the armor, which in the old world was only used by wealthy men in chariots. So at the end it was far more expensive than the obsidian sword and it didn't offer a real advantage against the light armors of Mesoamerica.

File: 6194005508_75f51fcbee_b.jpg (119KB, 480x651px) Image search: [Google]

119KB, 480x651px

>>69726611
Well, seems that sacrifices and ritual cannibalism is what happens when you regard every living being as valuable as a man. You end up wondering why someone, either plant or animal, has to die everyday so others can live.
Representations like pic related show a very particular perception of the food chain.

File: aztec sacrifices.png (127KB, 1310x723px) Image search: [Google]

127KB, 1310x723px

Pic VERY related (and well worth the read 3bh)

>>69727232
>CHI's get this mad on an anonymous Bhutanese gravel grading forum

>>69726691
to be fair, they didn't have steel weapons or any real armor

If you match a guy with plate armor and a steel sword versus a guy with no armor and a weapon which is essentially nothing more than sharp glass, then obviously the one who's better equipped will win. Not to mention the advantage of horses and gunpowder.

>>69728147
there is some truth but andeans had pack animals but they still practiced human sacrifice

animal sacrifice does not replace human sacrifice or vice versa, some places used pack animals and sacrificed people only, or the opposite

File: 1477875363828.jpg (6KB, 82x77px) Image search: [Google]

6KB, 82x77px

>>69727141
Kinda looks like the sun in the flag of Uruguay.

>>69726691
>100 cavalry
>12 birgantines
>2 years of smallpox
No shit

I always wonder "what if the Dutch were the ones to conquer the Americas, but in the 21st century". Can you imagine how fucking weird it'd be, an army of people who are on average something like 185 cm facing a bunch of indios measuring 155 cm on average (or even less). The indios surely would have thought they were facing an entirely different species of literal giants.

>>69728535
Since the spanish said that the indios were of the same height as them, being some more tall and some less (just like them), they would probably have thought the same as 16th century spaniards.

File: 1475875475023.jpg (19KB, 262x281px) Image search: [Google]

19KB, 262x281px

>>69728535
>people have always been the same height, even 500 years ago

>>69728668
But the Spaniards in general are shorter than the Dutch, and most importantly 16th century Europeans were much shorter than 21st century Europeans.

Though it's interesting that they were the same height back then, it shows that the nutrition, diet and healthcare of the Aztecs weren't particularly worse than that of the Spaniards.

File: rajoy and peña nieto.jpg (28KB, 630x330px) Image search: [Google]

28KB, 630x330px

>>69728535
The Dutch (and most Europeans) in that time measured around 170 cm on average.

>>69728668
>Mestizo fairy tales

>>69728147
The whole white bearded man coming back from the east is a myth. Like in Columbus era people thought the earth was round tier myth

>>69728908
*flat lmao

File: Mesoamerican bronze.jpg (159KB, 1280x968px)

159KB, 1280x968px

>>69726919
It was the Tarascans and their bronze was not a factor, the Aztecs themselves had used bronze war axes, the tlaximaltepoztli, which they obtained as tribute from the Huastecs and the Mixtecs, they prefered their Macahuitl however as obsidian was sharper than their bronze and they knew to use it to good effect (eg decapitating horses) so it wasn't a technological advantage for the Tarascans which themselves traded bronze (axe-monies) with the Aztecs themselves.

>>69724474
The Aztec empire was founded as an alliance between three citiy states, one of it's founders was Nezahualcoyotl the ruler of Texcoco wich was a sort of Athens to Tenochtitlan's Sparta. It is known he had proposed a non sacrificial religion and that he followed it himself although he did allow others to sacrifice, this is a figure the Aztecs themselves greatly respected and is considered the greatest poet of the Nahua. There were certainly foundations on which Mesoamerica, and Aztec civilization in particular, could have evolved a new theology had it been left to its own devices.

>>69728759
Peña Nieto is basically Spanish, doesn't look too different from Pedro Sánchez

File: 1483840831547.png (91KB, 577x480px) Image search: [Google]

91KB, 577x480px

>HURR DURR WE WERE JUST DEFEATED BECAUSE OF THE SMALLPOX
Yes they literally got infected in the middle of the battlefield and then died in minutes because of the smallpox, lmao

>THE SPANIARDS HAD GUNS
Useless against light armored enemies. Most Spaniards fought with sword and rodela. The biggest weapon was the horse.

>MUH SHINY ARMORS
Most Conquistadors weren't heavy armored, max shit they wore was a steel cuirass but most used cotton and leather light armors.


The thing is, I'm not trying to be an asshole and insult Mexicans, which most of them don't descend from the absolutely massacred Aztecs, but from the Spanish allies like the Tlaxcala, but today it has become practically the norm to try to belittle any historical Spanish achievement, and it's tiresome.

The Spaniards, while they were conquering México they were also defeating France in Italy and the Turks in the Mediterranean, the two biggest military powers in the Old World. The Tercios were literally steamrolling everywhere and this military supremacy lasted for over a century. We didn't just win because the Aztecs were savages, the Spaniards of the time were simply a military superpower.

File: Macahuitl Armeria Real.png (174KB, 1080x125px) Image search: [Google]

174KB, 1080x125px

>>69727138
That's a very crude representation of a macahuitl, they used prismatic blades. Pictured is a drawing from the last known specimen.

File: 1483588548129.png (100KB, 250x241px)

100KB, 250x241px

>>69728952
>Peña Nieto is basically Spanish, doesn't look too different from Pedro Sánchez
>this is what mestizos unironically believe

The trauma is big.

>>69728976
>Yes they literally got infected in the middle of the battlefield and then died in minutes because of the smallpox, lmao
They got infected when Cortes went to fight some cunt in Cuba while there was an outbreak there, (why do you think there are no natives left in Cuba) and came back to the City only to find Pedro de Alvarado chimping out and almost barely making it out of Tenochtitlan. They wouldn't come back to the City in 2 years, in those same 2 years there were several outbreaks inside the city. Why do you go against documented facts? Illiterate imbecile.

>>69724111
The Aztecs were fucking awesome, it's a shame that modern Mexico is dominated by Spanish culture instead of their real culture.

>>69728976
>Honestly believes smallpox had nothing to do with the downfall of the Aztecs
It killed off 1/4th of the main city's population, cunt. Most Aztecs died from smallpox than anything else.

>Guns were useless
Guns and cannons were extremely useful, the Aztecs had nothing to defend themselves from it.

>Armor
It still played a role against the Aztecs. While what they were able to accomplish is impressive considering the short time they existed, they were still in the bronze age while Spain was more advanced.

I have no doubt in my mind that without Smallpox and the few conflicts between leaders, the Aztecs could have held their own against the Spanish and allies.

File: 1483703422908.png (17KB, 529x481px) Image search: [Google]

17KB, 529x481px

>>69729057
>Can't even stand the smallpox
>imagine if we brought the bigpox

Fucking primitive savages I swear

>>69728976
>Yes they literally got infected in the middle of the battlefield and then died in minutes because of the smallpox, lmao
no, but they certainly died from that in the siege of Tenochtitlan

>>69728976
>Useless against light armored enemies. Most Spaniards fought with sword and rodela. The biggest weapon was the horse.
Agreed on the last part, but you're disregarding the cannons and that's was the only reason they won against the Tlaxcalans and convinced them to get an alliance.

>Most Conquistadors weren't heavy armored, max shit they wore was a steel cuirass but most used cotton and leather light armors.
they still had steel weapons against wooden weapons

Not to downplay the Spanish feat, but had the natives faced cavalry before they wouldn't have survived battles like Centla or Otumba. They still had the biggest balls of all time for making a charge of 5 horsemen.

File: Pavía.png (244KB, 319x824px)

244KB, 319x824px

>>69729147
>the Aztecs could have held their own against the Spanish and allies.

Meanwhile in the real world the Spaniards were literally steamrolling the modern and heavy armored armies of France.

>MUH LA RAZA

Fucking delusional Chicanos.

>>69729217
>WE WUZ
Spaniards had success in Mexico because aztecs were dicks to everyone in the region so the butthurt tribes literally fought along the spaniards.

>>69729217
>Spanish
>Steamrolling

You can't downplay an empire of 22 million people, where most men were trained to be warriors from a young age. The entire Spanish forces weren't in the Americas as the time, so yes, I honestly believe the Aztecs could have lasted against the Spanish.

I wasn't born in this states, nor is this some pride shit.

>>69728976
>Yes they literally got infected in the middle of the battlefield and then died in minutes because of the smallpox, lmao
Actually they did fall sick in the midst of war, the siege of Tenochtitlán lasted 3 months during which time the epidemic hit the city badly. Things were made worse as the Spaniards cut off the city's two aqueducts (they didn't drink from the lake) and corpses littered much of the lake system.
>Useless against light armored enemies. Most Spaniards fought with sword and rodela. The biggest weapon was the horse.
Only high ranking warriors wore armor, also you're missing the point that Spanish arquebusiers were effective shock troops, guns weren't taken to the new world as a novelty toy, they had an effective role in battle, particularly against peoples unfamiliar with them.
>Most Conquistadors weren't heavy armored, max shit they wore was a steel cuirass but most used cotton and leather light armors.
A steel cuirass and helmet alongside leather armor are pretty effective protection in fact.

No one is trying to diminish the feat of Cortés and his men but you're going full retard here, by the standards of his own time Cortés did a lot of ruthless dishonorable shit (there's a reason he was considered disreputable in Spain) also most mixed peoples in Mexico descend from peoples part of the core of the Nahua core of the Aztec empire, the Tenochtla Mexicah chief amongst them as this is where the Spaniards established new Spain's capital. The Aztec alliance was an alliance between three city states, not just Tenochtitlan, and each of these had further associated smaller towns and territories, Aztec civilization spread through the whole of not just Anahuac (Mexico City), but what are today the Mexican states of Puebla, Hidalgo, Morelos, Edo. de México and parts of Guerrero and Veracruz. It was by far the most densely populated region of the pre-columbian Americas. The Tlaxcalans gained a privileged status and remained in their own land, CONT

>>69724111
I don't.

File: Battle of Gembloux.png (161KB, 320x894px) Image search: [Google]

161KB, 320x894px

>>69729295
Don't be stupid, sooner or later we would have send more men if it was necessary.

The Spaniards of the time were so brutal and confident in their military prowess that one Spanish general asked just for 15.000 castillian soldiers to conquer the entirety of China. You just don't achieve 116 years virtually undefeated in major battlefields by having luck.

>>69729395
>we

Who is we?

What's to say there would have been a difference after the Aztecs got experience fighting the Spanish? I'm saying the Aztecs could have stood a chance if they weren't dealing with every other shit that was thrown at them.

>>69729373
the current Mexican state of Tlaxcala, except for a few who were later encouraged to settle in the Bajío, most ]Mexicans descend from this core of the Aztec empire, this is like you claiming only the peoples of Latium were Romans.

Seriously man, México comes from Mexicah, the original kingdom of México in New Spain roughly corresponds to the Aztec empire, nevermind the Aztec ethnicity, Nahua, was far more extended and remains today the most numerous of all Mexican Americans by far if you exclude the Maya.

>>69728976
The only reason the Spanish ended up on top is because all of the Mexica/Aztec client states hated them, and took the first excuse they could to revolt. Most of the fighting was between Injuns and the Spanish only won because the Injuns suffered one of the most depressing collapses of civilization in history.

When the sun rose after discontinuing blood sacrifices to keep it going, rhe basis of their whole religion fell apart. Their grand empire fell collapsed after a brutal war, their pristine imperial canal city became a cesspit of death and disease, and the vast majority of their population was being wiped out disease, which back then most saw mystically, as punishment from above. It was as apocalyptic as it gets, they literally thought it was the death of man

>>69729293
No, this is a black legend, the Tlaxcaltec treason aside and Spanish dominance over the Totonacs of the Vera Cruz area most peoples remained faithful to the empire until the fall of Tlatelolco and the surrender of the last tlatoani, Cuauhtemoc.

All Mesoamericans performed human sacrifices and were involved in warfare, the Aztecs were simply top dog, not a ruthless opresor as later revisionists and apologist of those who sided with the Spaniards tried to make it.

You would have had to go north amongst the Chichimeca to find peoples who did not perform human sacrifice, down south the post decline Maya also practiced it.

>>69728976
A lot of it was disease, Spanish anon. Spaniards rarely bathed, and were used to disease over the course of dozens of generations. In contrast, Aztecs (but not Mixtecs and other groups) usually bathed. A weakened population leads to a weakened army desu. There wasn't as much contact between Spain and the Aztecs before this. Also, Montezuma was a dumbass and thought that Cortez was the god Quetzalcoatl. This gave the Spanish the ability to enter the capital and attack from within.

>>69729458
It wasn't hatred, those who allied with the Spaniards did so for their own benefit, see >>69729522

File: 1462030905752.jpg (16KB, 319x319px) Image search: [Google]

16KB, 319x319px

>>69729445
>What's to say there would have been a difference after the Aztecs got experience fighting the Spanish? I'm saying the Aztecs could have stood a chance if they weren't dealing with every other shit that was thrown at them.

The shit that I have to read, my God.

Fucking chicanos and AOE Aztecboos.

>>69729529
Nah, Moctezuma did not believe Cortés was a god, that's another myth, it seems he and Cortés did actually bond and become friends despite Cortés later making a captive out of him.

File: .jpg (67KB, 564x605px) Image search: [Google]

67KB, 564x605px

>>69724111
Pillar Men and vampire masks, of course :^)

>>69729549
Sure thing anon, whatever you say.

Keep in mind you honestly believe smallpox had nothing to do with the downfall of the Aztec empire, and believe you were part of the Spanish Conquistadors in the 1500's.

>we
I kek'd when I read that

I think I am going to make several meme arrow copypastas to explain the conquest of Tenochtitlan better given the amount of misinformation ITT.

Altough that is autism for another day.

>>69729573
Still speculation is pretty much useless on that matter, history went down the way it did and Mexico was born from it, which might not have been the case in many other scenarios.

>>69729562
I forgot about that being debunked. But my other point is still valid.

>>69729568
AWAKEN MY MASTERS!

>>69729573
>Keep in mind you honestly believe smallpox had nothing to do with the downfall of the Aztec empire
I never said that, I know it killed millions (although the total numbers are arguable)

It's just that it is constantly used as another of so many excuses to belittle the Spanish feat.

>we
Was just talking about Spain.

>>69729625
Yes, the Aztecs bathed compulsively, it doesn't mean people like the Mixtecs were pigs, temazcal was widespread through the whole of Mesoamerica, at any rate I'm not sure hygiene was a factor (other than the Aztecs being forced to drink from the lake during the siege of tenochtitlan, bathing doesn't prevent smallpox nor typhus.

http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/home/clean-aztecs-dirty-spaniards

>>69729663
Saying it was the main reason the Spanish were able to defeat the Aztecs is not belittling them, its stating the truth.

>was just talking about Spain
Literally WE WUZ tier, the same shit you try to shitpost about me

>>69729689
Huh. I guess I was wrong.

>>69729562
Cortés also literally raped his daughter lel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonor_Cort%C3%A9s_Moctezuma

The Aztecs are a babby civilization.

The Maya are truly the greatest.

>>69729751
Isabel de Moctezuma was suposed to have been a woman of great beauty and it does seem like she used this gift to succesfully ensure her own survival, she prospered and became a Spanish Doña.

It's something you can never know the truth of, much as is the case with Malintzin.

>>69729787
I don't want to be edgy or mean, but frankly all three meso-american civilizations were pretty primitive in many regards. They still displayed some positive traits, namely in the areas of writing with the Aztecs and Mayas having invented their own writing (albeit a very primitive and inefficient form, a bit like Ancient Egyptians, but which is still impressive in its own right), architecture, agriculture and irrigation, sanitation, etc. But in general, they were still very primitive compared to Asian and European civilizations.

File: Battle of Otumba.png (171KB, 318x597px) Image search: [Google]

171KB, 318x597px

>>69729700
When I joked about the small pox I joked because of battles like this.

In the end armies of thousands of men battled one another, ending with a final Spanish victory. You can fantasize all you want about the past, it's not going to change the fact that the Aztecs never stood a chance because the Spaniards were superior in everything but numbers.

>it was the Castilian Cavalry that was decisive for victory in the perilous battle. The Aztecs regarded the Spaniards as already defeated, and were looking to gain glory from capturing live Spaniards to sacrifice to their gods. The Castilian cavalry spearheaded the attack, breaking through the ranks and decimating the Aztec lines, preparing them for the assault of the Castilian rodeleros and tlaxcalan infantry. Though this approach was successful, the sheer numbers of the Aztecs still menaced to overwhelm the Castilians.

>Spaniard success was also thanks to Cortés strategy, he had instructed his troops to strike primarily at the captains and leaders of their opponent. Cortés himself recognized the Aztec leader Matlatzincatl for his rich armor, headdress and flag. He correctly assumed that defeating their leader and capturing their flag would result in the defeat of the Aztecs. He communicated his idea to his captains and led a charge for Matlatzincatl, followed by Gonzalo de Sandoval, Pedro de Alvarado, Cristóbal de Olid, Juan de Salamanca and Alonso Dávila. Cortés attacked the Aztec leader with his lance, and the rest of his captains broke the ranks of the warriors around him. Matlatzincatl was slain by Juan de Salamanca, who retrieved the Aztec battle-standard and delivered it to Cortés. With their leader slain, the Aztec force diminished gradually, and the tlaxcalan and Castilian warriors routed them.

>>69729838
As a princess she was a Doña already. She didn't became one, she was born one.

File: Tenochtitlan 1519.jpg (822KB, 1936x1286px) Image search: [Google]

822KB, 1936x1286px

>>69729901
>But in general, they were still very primitive compared to Asian and European civilizations.
here we go again, what do you expect from people who didn't met Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Indians, Chinese, Greeks nor Romans?

>>69729787
Meh, the Aztecs were something more like the Romans to the Mayan Greeks, it's true their empire was not long lived (merely a couple of centuries) but as a civilization the empire they defeated themselves, Azcapotzalco who were also Nahuas and Aztecs in the civilizational sense extended that to a good half millenia and drew strongly from the previous civilization of Teotihuacan. The Maya themselves were contemporary to this central Mexican civilization, alomg with Toltecs and all drew from sources in Olmec and Cuicuilco civilizations, the latter lost to the eruption of a volcano and sort of like the Mesoamerican Crete or Atlantis, this in central Mexico (Mexico City in fact) It wasn't as if civilization came from the south, Mesoamerica evolved as a whole with some regions advancing different aspects. This isn't a pissing contest type of thing man.

File: Tenochtitlan map.jpg (191KB, 596x686px) Image search: [Google]

191KB, 596x686px

Tenochtitlan was one of the most populated cities in the world when Europeans discovered it, and Spanish explorers described how clean and surprisingly modern it was at the time. It was more livable than plenty of European cities even.

This video's a pretty good redpill on the Aztecs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nS6MpVbB_g

>>69729957
I mean she died in Spain as European nobility.

>>69729908
this, blaming it all on disease is ridiculous

For example, the last Inca Emperor, Atahualpa, sent out a ceremonial delegation with barely any weapons to meet the conquistadors, because he wanted to be able to impress the people by beating them without even needing weapons, and he naively believed there was no way such a small group of men could capture him and take down his empire.

>>69729901
>albeit a very primitive and inefficient form, a bit like Ancient Egyptians, but which is still impressive in its own right
By which standards are you measuring primitiveness and efficiency?

>>69729908
Spaniards won because of their daring, the leadership of Cortés, which did allow for many important non military victories, their technological advancement and a shit ton of luck. It was not because they were "superior"

>>69729901
>compared to Asian and European civilizations

that is where you are wrong in comparison
they are good at what they did

civilizations that are unchanging with regards to time and external pressure are a true cultural hegemon

egypt was seen as the mythical great even my the classic antiquity was due to this unchanging nature

although andean and mesoamerican civs where younger they are by that aspect burgeoning civilizations that would have stood the test of time
a complete geographical domination by the andeans or religious cultural domination by maya and aztecs

the aztecs perfect their own taxation system through the garland wars, something that became almost impossible to break from, without resorting to wars that would have jeapordiezed its own existence such as the roman conquests or alexander conquests

they are just examples of near-perfections as far as civilization-culture go, to survive into the modern age would have destroyed them anyway

>>69729908
>the Spaniards were superior in everything
you can't really claim the horses, cannons, steel weapons/armors, and disease immunity were superior when the enemy had nothing of that

>>69730059
Peru's history is a very different one, Pizarro was more ruthless and less brilliant than Cortés and the Inca more naive and less fortunate than the Aztecs.

>>69724616
I guess the rapebaby mindset is what made Mexicans in the first place

>>69730153
there's one thing I wonder, had the Aztecs, Mayans and Inca simply said "ok, we accept conversion to Catholicism and to pay tribute to Spain", would Cortés and Pizarro simply had left them be? Was there any indication as to their possible plans in case they simply accepted conversion and submission to the crown of Castile?

File: cry some more baby.gif (1MB, 200x200px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 200x200px

>>69726744
>>69728437

File: Battle of Garigliano.png (178KB, 320x620px) Image search: [Google]

178KB, 320x620px

>>69730094
>>69730092
>>69730118

Superior tactics. Superior strategy. Better trained and more disciplined soldiers (what is "verdadera destreza"). Etc.

You don't win an open field battle between 1000 Spaniards and Tlaxcalans vs. 100.000-200.000 Aztecs in a day (thus my smallpox in the battlefield joke) just by luck.

As I said, the Spaniards were steamrolling technologically equal armies in Europe during the time, even at inferior numbers. They were an experiencied military power. There's no need to be so much in denial.

>>69730260
no
for a few years maybe but after a decade it's not possible even then they converted they forced them to work the mines or on the plantations as virtual slaves anyway

the spanish were poor in europe when the discovered gold and other things they were going to the most they can to get the most the can

material first backed by religion not the other way around
when the mines ran out they worked on cash crop killing millions of natives

>>69730333
the tlaxcalans numbered the same as the aztecs doe

>>69730353
there weren't as much Tlaxcalans in Otumba

File: ñ_ñ.png (59KB, 235x184px)

59KB, 235x184px

>>69730337
>the spanish were poor in europe when the discovered gold and other things they were going to the most they can to get the most the can

I just recently heard that the Aztec language is still spoken in some parts of Mexico, is that true?

>>69730410
yes
well it belongs in the same family, the ones that allied with the spanish
proper aztecs are dead as in dead

>>69730353
Not in battles like Otumba, you fucking tiresome chicano.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Otumba

In the Battle of Otumba the Tlaxcalans were around 800, I repeat: 800 shitty infantry. Meanwhile the Aztecs could surpass the 100.000 in numbers. And the Spaniards just 500. But the Spaniards literally swept with hundreds if not thousands of Aztecs in every cavalry charge until they got them to the point they wanted where they could basically do a frontal attack on their commanders.

>>69730480
that was my first response to you
whoever you were talking to is long gone

>>69730333
>Superior tactics. Superior strategy. Better trained and more disciplined soldiers
those very same disciplined Spaniards are the source for the statements in here >>69726603
You really think that people who went to monthly wars were not experenced?

What's so hard to admit they wouldn't have had superior tactics without horses and superior technology?

>>69730387
Go back to /cum/ you >>69729333

>>69730424
The Aztecs are very much alive, just visit Tepito in Mexico City and you'll have your shot at getting killed by a near full blooded descendant of the people of Tenochtitlan. Whether that's a "proper" Aztec is just semantics, Mexicans from the most part do descend from them as it was the Nahua of central mexico and the core of the Aztec empire who did all the literal heavy lifting in the conquest of the rest of Mexico. That's the reason there's a city called Mazatlán in lands the Aztecs never even saw.

>>69730410
Yes, Nahuatl is still spoken although it is obviously not now the same language it was 500 years ago, there are in fact several dialects. Classical Nahuatl does remain the Amerindian language with the largest written record in the Americas.

>>69726771
They weren't an empire in the conventional sense.
They were a union of cities that ruled over several client states in the region.
Many of those client states, and some other non-client states fucking hated them after the flower wars because they were some of the most sacrifice happy Mesoamericans.

>>69730571
i meant the language

>>69730613
those that hated them didn't hate them for the practice itself since they did it too
they hated them because they were keeping them in relative poverty

>>69730501
>You really think that people who went to monthly wars were not experenced?

Experience doesn't equal superior tactics nor a superior global strategy.

The Mara Salvatruchas are also "very experienced" in "fighting", but they would never stand a chance against a SWAT team.

The rest, well, glorifications of war, there are narrations like that about formidable soldiers for every battle ever. I think in general they were probably just surprised because of the low expectations.

>>69730613
See >>69729522
Also, the altepetl were city states joined by a common culture, much like Greece, and they ruled over both other altepetl and kingdoms (I'm not talking chieftains but equally advanced peoples as in Oaxaca) they were as much an empire as Alexander's.

File: tmp_31546-14838005753811740623536.png (647KB, 900x600px) Image search: [Google]

647KB, 900x600px

>>69726450
Hungary is truly out greatest ally

we should have wiped them out

File: Narrow Scape of Cortes.jpg (169KB, 490x572px) Image search: [Google]

169KB, 490x572px

>>69728759
>Mestizo fairy tales
>"Among the men, generally there are found these traits: some are tall some are small. some are fat some are thin, some are brave some are not, some have an average height and some not, some are handsome and some are not."
- Universal History of the Things of New Spain, Tenth Book, Sixth Chapter

>"The people of this land are well made, rather tall than short. They are swarthy as leopards, of good manners and gestures, for the greater part very skillful, robust, and tireless, and at the same time the most moderate men known."
-Chronicle of the anonymous conquistador, Third Chapter

>>69730480
>In the Battle of Otumba the Tlaxcalans were around 800, I repeat: 800 shitty infantry.
that shitty infantry was the reason cortes wasn't captured a third time

>>69730698
>and we are the ones in the denial
Yes, Spaniards could literally have won just by brilliant tactics, sword and buckler. Horses and cannons were used just used so the soldiers wouldn't brag too much back home with Dulcinea and the lads.

File: Tenochtitlan-Mexico City.jpg (450KB, 1224x716px) Image search: [Google]

450KB, 1224x716px

>>69731320
if only, we wouldn't have had to see what became of the place

File: Zócalo.jpg (61KB, 800x304px) Image search: [Google]

61KB, 800x304px

>>69731441
That's Ecatepec ffs, here's Tenochtitlan's central square today

>>69731762
fuck off, been there, it gets as shitty as in the picture just two streets from there

>>69726603
it was their home

>>69728940
>There were certainly foundations on which Mesoamerica, and Aztec civilization in particular, could have evolved a new theology had it been left to its own devices.
But, when things are like that, he's basically created a religious variation, similar to catholics/protestant.
And if the the non-sacrificials didn't become the majority with this great Nezahualcoyotl, do you think they would be able to later?

>>69728201
desu the rules of engagement and the general purpose of warfare was pretty different
Aztecs waged wars to capture prisoners to sacrifice later for their Gods.
They were terrified to learn that Europeans just went straight for the kill.
Horses and fireweapons mostly had a psychological effect only, early Spanish conquistadors had quite few of them only. Iron armor also didn't make much difference, it was uncomfortable to wear under that climate.