portuguese language thread

>>65865974
>abó

>>65865974
Since it's a pain to write, I'm gonna make a difference between Portuguese and Brazilian.
>is the subjunctive used the same way as in spanish?
No, we use a weird case for it, I think. I can barely explain it, but I guess I can help you on examples.

>are the differences between brazilian and portugual portuguese significant? examples?
Mostly accent and idiomatic expressions. Brazilian sounds closer to Spanish than Portuguese does. We use the mesóclise and enclise for pronouns, and they usually don't, like Spanish, I think.

Give me:
BR: Me dá
PT: Dá-me

He will give me:
BR: Ele me dará
PT: Ele dar-me-á

And a few others.

>>65866195
esp: el me dará

>>65866195
>Me dá
Isso está errado manolo, tem até um poeminha super batido sobre isso:

"Dê-me um cigarro
Diz a gramática
Do professor e do aluno
E do mulato sabido
Mas o bom negro e o bom branco
Da Nação Brasileira
Dizem todos os dias
Deixa disso camarada
Me dá um cigarro."

>>65865974
Also, in most of those "tu" areas, they use the word "tu", but use the 4rd person conjugation after it.

You give:
BR1: Você dá
BR2: Tu dá
PT: Tu dás

Africa uses BR2 casually, and PT officially.

In the plural everyone uses vocês and the 3rd person conjugation:

BR1/BR2/PT: Vocês dão

Even though we have a more formal way:

Formal: Vós dais

>>65866267
Right, I wasn't sure. As you see, Brazilian split off Portuguese early on, when Portuguese and Spanish were closer, so they sort of use a more archaic version, with some caveats. Same thing happened with French and English and Spanish and their colonies, since less population makes for a faster mutable language.

>>65866355
Yeah, but do you really use mesoclise and enclise regularly? Isn't it only in a couple exceptions?

>>65866401
Well I fucked it up.
>4rd
3rd, obviously

>Isn't it only in a couple exceptions?
Isn't it only in a couple exceptions/formal speech?

>>65866401
We use enclise formally but no one uses mesoclise here even though it's also acceptable in our formal grammar. People who use mesoclise in their speech are often seen as a pompous cunt. Proclise is very common in brazilian speech and grammar.

For instance, we do know that "Me dá" is grammatically wrong, but it's still more commonly used in our everyday speech. If you say "Dê-me" odds are you'll be made fun of.

>>65866401
You can find both "tu dá" and "tu dás" in South America. Santa Catarina for example has all three forms (including "você dá").

>>65869089
Ok. I was under impression that even the states that use tu didn't conjugate it, since it was the most common examples I came accross, my bad.

>>65869015
Right. So formal/semi-formal speech.

If it were up to me, we'd go back to Vós, desu. Sounds much more regal.

Regarding pronoun placement in general, I think I know quite a bit, both from historical and current usage. Does anyone want me to explain it?

>>65869152
Don't worry, even people outside said States assume it's always "tu dá".

Also, a Maranhense once reported me that some people on the North-Northwest countryside still use "vós", specially around her region. Considering literacy there is shitty poor, this must be a really conservative trait.

>>65869015
Here's the catch: "me dá" is grammatically wrong accordingly to an standard (prescribed normative grammar). It's considered correct if your standard is actual usage.

[I'll explain a bit more for the sake of non-Portuguese speakers.]

>>65869395
A lot of our interior villages also use Vós fairly regularly. It's pretty contagious, too, and you start doing it in the same conversation if they use it. It does require a fairly conservative household.

It does lead to some confusion as how to conjugate the singular 2nd person, and they start saying (wrongly and usually are corrected) "tu destes" instead of "tu deste".

>>65865974
Everyone but me gotta learn

>>65865974
That map is surprisingly accurate.
I use 'você' 90% of the time.
I only use 'tu' when speaking in a very informal way to a very close relative, which is totally the opposite of how things were supposed to work.

gimmie dat bunda

>>65869578
>voçe me give la bunda

Holy shit brazilians use voceo? ayy lamoo voceo a cute A CUTE

>>65866195
you could just say brazilian rapes our grammar

>>65869639
That'd be disingenuous and petty, though, since they might have butchered it less than we did since the split.

Also, as long as it's understood by them and us, I don't care, even though I do have a preference.

>>65869639
rapes? no. They made it easier and that's why everybody learns brazilian portuguese. Face it, we over complicate shit for no reason.

>>65869501
>I only use 'tu' when speaking in a very informal way to a very close relative, which is totally the opposite of how things were supposed to work.
Not that opposite - you still conserve the "tu is informal, você is formal" approach. Just the cutting line is different, the degree of formality required to shift is smaller.

>>65869481
>It does lead to some confusion as how to conjugate the singular 2nd person, and they start saying (wrongly and usually are corrected) "tu destes" instead of "tu deste".
Ah, the old hypercorrection...

File: tumblr_m9a8exdn8r1reuhyvo1_500.jpg (79KB, 500x333px) Image search: [Google]

79KB, 500x333px

>>65865974
is the subjunctive used the same way as in spanish?
I don't know.

are the differences between brazilian and portugual portuguese significant? examples?
Who cares about Portugal. Learn based Sao Paulo accent and you will be fine.

>>65869692
We definitely talk faster. If by personality, culture or the changes we made, at least it wasn't for no reason.

They went for clarity instead, which is perfectly valid for a country with speakers from different backgrounds, and such a large territory.

>>65869786
>Who cares about Portugal.
;_;

Although for an Argentinian, Brazilian Portuguese is definitely the better option. It's not even like English, where the British version is deemed sexier in the American colonies. It's just harder.

>>65869639
>>65869691
If you're being conservative, one can say both butchered the grammar. The pronoun placement is a good example - the whole linguistic community has been "rebutchering" it over and over through the years.

1700 Portuguese used mainly proclisis, in a system that resembles more most Brazilian dialects (with an important exception - imperative was always enclisis.)

>>65869848
Right. The only extra claim we can really make is that the language carries our name, but we're still the 4th largest country that speaks it.

The number of Portuguese Empire citizens in Brazil and Portugal upon the split was almost equal, too, so it's not like most "carriers" stayed. We just didn't get as many immigrants or descendants here.

>>65869802
It's related to the speed language evolved - Portugal had larger cities and more connections than the former colonies, so any mutation spread faster in Portugal. The same phenomenon happened for example in English (most American are conservative over English dialects) and French (even with all weird English influence over Quebecois French, it's generally more conservative than Parisian).

>>65869841
Areal features help too - Rioplatense Spanish and Gaúcho+Sulista Portuguese have been in contact for some time. This helps preserving certain conservative traits at one side and develop similar features at the other.

>>65865974
Abó sounds based.

>>65870154
Guinea "Portuguese" is weird. They, like every colony besides Brazil, officially use the exact same Portuguese as us, but their casual speech is usually some form of creole that we can't even understand, even if they do know proper Portuguese.

>>65870154
Learn what based actually means, newfag.

>>65870206
> having austim

>>65870255
>he doesn't even know hot to verdetexto
/r/ ban.

>>65870206
Abó é idiota.

>are the differences between brazilian and portugual portuguese significant? examples?

PT-Barbossa:Bom dia senho, o quê está a fazer neste momento?
PT-BR: EH CARA, E AÍ? TUDO LEGAL? kkkUEHUEH BRBR

>>65870331
Bem isso mesmo

>>65869915
Immigrants buffed up numbers greatly... I wonder how the Lusophone scene would look if, say, Italians in São Paulo just said "nah... fuck Portuguese" and kept their languages.

>>65865974
>>65847529
>>65847529
>>65847529

>>65870331
>não sendo "estas"
Aprenda um pouco antes de memar, mapuche de mierda.

>>65870413
>estás
>senhor
Pick one and only one.

>>65870413
Why should i learn shitty spanish, my brown and retarded gorilla?

>>65869786
>São Paulo accent
>not shit

ayy lmao

>>65870505
>Why should i learn shitty spanish
Specially since you already speak it, eh?
"Como te shamas?"

>>65870540
>shamas
Really made me think

File: 1462061759368.jpg (32KB, 540x308px)

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>>65866195
>PT-PT works just like IUPAC rules for naming organic compounds
What the fuck is this

>>65870505
Yeah, must be hard for your little mapuche brain to save so many diferent informations.

>>65870505
for bunda

>>65870540
Rioplatense spanish is the piece of cake, the perfect admixture between ancient (voceo) and modern spanish
well, maybe a little bastarded by shÝtalian, but still..

>>65870575
I think this is one of the areal features I was talking about - LL in Rioplatense Spanish ended evolving into the same as Portuguese CH, and most words in both are cognates.

>llama - chama [both flame and call]
>lluvia - chuva
>llorar - chorar

>>65870615
Mapuches are Chilean.

>>65870702
Thanks for reminding me Italian influenced your accent too - another common feature. (That's why you guys yell like Paulistas instead of talking)

>>65870709
Argentina was the spanish colony with more portugueses living here (not related to Brasil but the crowns uninon for a while), specially in the center-western provinces, and later in the 19th century 65% of spanish immigrants were from Galicia, the make some impact in our accent

>>65871127
This has quite some influence, but alone it wouldn't do much - on the other hand recent immigration + conservative features + mutual influence + colonial influence* together do make you guys easier to understand us and vice-versa.

*easiest examples would be Montevideo [not Argentina, but still same Spanish variety as BBAA] being founded by Portuguese and the Southern countryside being part of La Plata in older times

>>65870587
Only is you use pronouns in the future and conditional. Sounds formal and pompous, and some people don't use them, but most do.

>>65872096
This reminds me Jânio Quadros [a former president]. Someone asked him why did he drink, and he answered

>Bebo-o porque líquido, se fosse sólido comê-lo-ia
Coming from a guy who dusted his own shoulder with flour to say "EU SOU DO POVO! EU TENHO CASPA"...

>>65872353
That's some Portuguese sarcastic/question-evading dad humour right there. It drives me nuts when my father does it. Portuguese isn't particularly good for puns, so I guess this is what they resort to.

>>65872353
kek desu