Speakers of Portuguese, Spanish, and Italian!

>>65802696
casa de carne is valid in spanish, it lireally means house (made) of meat but as a name it works

>>65802696
It's not Italian

>>65802696
The thing with portuguese and spanish is that some short sentences can be written in the same way.

>>65802800
Can you say in Italian "Casa di Carne"? Or it is "Casa della Carne"?

Casa da carne? Meats own houses in the US?

>>65802807
Yes, confused the hell out of me...

>>65802848
See >>65802778

>>65802696
"Casa de carne" sounds strange to us. The correct would be "Casa da carne". As it stands it seems that the house is made of flesh
Sorry for dumb english

>>65802851
In spanish would be casa de la carne but the way is written it looks it means it's a house made of meat

>>65802696
Casa de carne means meathouse in spanish so it's probably spanish

Casa de la carne would mean that the house is propierty of the meat

>>65802851
In the US I think it just means Steak House.

>>65802942
So google translation

File: Casa-di-carne[1].png (323KB, 340x545px) Image search: [Google]

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>>65802928
Hey, that gave an idea about the Italian usage I asked. So perhaps "Casa di carne" means just that. A house made of meat as opposed to a butcher shop?? Who knows.

Don't mind me, i'm just watching the thread waiting for someone to realize it says "Brazilian-inspired meathouse".

>>65803061
I think "Casa di carne" is correct in italian

>>65802923
Didn't notice this answer. Got it. "A meat house" in a sense of a "butcher shop" which literally means "a house made of meat" or "meat's house" as if meat built it and lives there. But as a name it works... OK.

>>65803398
I googled and found lots of both. Based on responses here, sounds like an article can be dropped which works as a name of a place. But maybe I got it wrong.

>>65803478
>>65803568
"Casa di carne" means "house made of meat", not "meat house" (which would be "casa della carne")

>>65802696
>Brazilian Inspired
Yeah it's definitely not Spanish or Italian.

Casa de Carne: House of Meat
Casa da Carne: House of the Meat

"da" is just "de" + "a" contracted together, so it changes between Meat and the Meat.

>>65804700
Meaning that Casa de Carne is what they were going for. It's sort of the house for meat to be in, as in the uncountable substance, not some specific chops.

>>65802696
Its spanish. I think "Casa di Carne" means "House (of M.R) Meat/Carne", and "Casa della Carne" means "Meat house"

>>65803061
casa di carne means house made of meat.

butcher shop is macelleria.

>>65804894
correct.

>>65802696

>what language is this

The amazing nonsense language of google literal translation of steak/meat house.

>>65804915
Thanks

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It sounds like portuguese from google translator. A common mistake when translating things literally.

sounds like one of those muh heritage things but the guy has no idea what he's saying

>>65805249
Casa de Carne sounds better to me than Casa da Carne.

>>65805674
Of course, if said house is made of actual meat, then yes, it sounds better.

>>65805769
It's more on the grounds of:

Eu vou à casa de carne comprar carne.
vs
Eu vou à casa dA carne comprar A carne.

The second one doesn't sound right. Like a "Caixa de Sons" vs a "Caixa dos Sons" to name some sort of musical box.

>>65805867
The first example denotes a literal meaning.
In the second example it denotes a connotative meaning, which is more suitable in the context of a house that sells meat.

>>65806088
I guess. The first one still sounds better to me. I'm gonna chalk that up to regional differences.

>>65802696
>Casa de Carne
Is that right? Shouldn't it be "Casa *da* Carne"? Casa de Carne sounds as if it's a house made of meat.

>>65806748
>>65805867

Nevermind my dumb post. And yes, "Casa *da* Carne" is correct.

>La Casa vs. Casa
In general, you'll avoid articles before proper names in Spanish. Since "Casa de [la] Carne" would be a proper name, no article.

The rule is different for Portuguese, since for some fucking stupid reason Portuguese spams articles before proper names.

>Casa de Carne vs. Casa da Carne
Both would be correct, but with different implications. The difference is the article "a" (da = de+a).
Casa de Carne would be literally "house of meat[s]", aka meathouse.
Casa da Carne would be "house of the meat[s]", aka "the meat owns a house".

>>65806982
>t. doesn't know Portuguese at all
You'll have to go back.

About Italian: I think skipping the article would imply the house is made of meat.

>>65805674
>Casa de Carne sounds better to me than Casa da Carne.
Ditto. And "casa de fruta" as in >>65805249 doesn't sound bad... "casa de frutas" would be better, but still.

BTW "Casa de Carnes" would sound even better.

>>65807017
I could shove at least three levels of argumenta ad hominem down your throat, but I'm busier wondering if there's regional variation regarding the article in de carne/da carne.

>>65807089
>"casa de frutas" would be better, but still.

>BTW "Casa de Carnes" would sound even better.

Agreed on all counts. "De" makes it sound less banal, but I guess both would be grammatically correct, just with slightly different connotations.

>>65807089
I've never seen "Casa de Carne" anywhere in my entire life. It's "Casa DA Carne".

>>65804700
>>65804759
This
You usually see "Casa da Carne" because the "de + a" makes it look like it's the (only) meathouse, as if it is superior to other meathouses or other meathouses aren't true meathouses.

>>65805867
>>>65805769 #

>Eu vou à casa de carne comprar carne.

Es curioso que en la primera parte de la frase useis la preposión 'a' y en la segunda sin embargo no.

En español sería; "(yo) voy a la '''''''casa de carne''''''' a comprar carne".

'casa de carne' no existe en español y suena ridiculo btw. Sería literalmente una case hecha de carne. Si se refiere al lugar donde se procesa la carne, seria 'matadero', la tienda donde se vende al publico 'carnicería', y un restaurante especializado en carnes 'asador', 'braseria' o 'grill', depende.

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>>65807216
I can't recall seeing "casa da carne", I often see "de carnes". Pic lazily googled related.

The thing is, you're dealing with three things really erratic on Romance languages: definition, countable/uncountable nouns and the genitive/"de" ambiguity, so this might be subject to huge regional variation, too.

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>>65807368
This one has singular and no article.

>>65807368
Both "Casa da Carne" or "Casa de Carnes" are correct. "Casa de Carne" without the s makes it sound as if it's a house made of meat.

>>65807259
"à" (with the left accent) is an "a+a" contraction, where the first "a" is a preposition and the second one an article.

It would be written like "Vou a a casa de carne" but we mesh both "a"'s into à, so it's equivalent to the Spanish "a la".

There rest I really can't explain better than what I've already said. de Carne sounds more abstract and superior to me. Like "da Carne" makes it sound like it only has one or two types, and after you buy them, it's empty. "de Carne" makes it feel like it produces the meat from an infinite well, so it would satiate any meat-related hunger.

"Casa feita de carne" would unambiguously mean "house made of meat".

>>65807423
Did you just photoshop that thing now?

>>65807259
>y en la segunda sin embargo no.
"A comprar" would imply gerund (infinitivo gerundivo).

"Eu vou comprar carne" = "I'm going now to buy meat as a single event."
"Eu vou a comprar carne" = "I'm going to buy meat over a certain time." (like, through the week).

>>65807450
>"Casa de Carne" without the s makes it sound as if it's a house made of meat.
At least for me, it doesn't sound like this at all, it sounds more like "carne" is something uncountable and non-specific/generic (so no article).

>>65807472
No, I just googled it. Ironically I was looking for "casa da carne".
Here's the source: http://fozletreiros.loja2.com.br/img/57b52a3412fe9bbf18d66684e04a162c.jpg

Huh. It verbatim meaens "(The) house of meat" in romanian.

>>65807882
For real? After so many weird adopted words, you guys kept both house and meat as latin? The common ones are usually the first ones to go.

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>>65807904
Maybe there's a reason romanian is a romance language.

I can also understand >>65807542
"Eu voi cumpara carne". means "I will buy food."
"Eu cumpar carne." means "I'm buying food."

>>65807961
Err, meat not food

>>65807961
>Maybe there's a reason Romanian is a romance language.
Well, I wasn't disputing that. It's just that the more common the word, the more changes it goes through, so I didn't expect both those common words to survive these many years. Especially without all those weird accents you like so much (and us too, to be fair).

Even between Portuguese and Spanish every fruit is written differently, for example.

Pretty interesting.

>>65807542

Interesting.

In Spanish 'voy a comprar carne' could mean both (i'm going now) or (i have the intention of buying meat). In any case I think spanish make more use of prepositions than portuguese.

Kek, awesome. Interesting to read you guys. Glad I am not the only one getting conflicting search results. But if I limit my search to the br domain for example, I only get "Casa da Carne" not de Carne.

>>65808042
Yeah, I guess. Just the word "house" is Casă which I presume is not something other romance speakers can pronounce normally, and "Casa de Carne" sounds weird in romanian. Not incorrect, but it's not something someone would say. Incidentally, meathouses here are called "măcelărie" or "cărnărie".

>>65808105
>I think spanish make more use of prepositions than portuguese.
Yeah, I think so too. We do concatenate a lot of them, and use gerunds from time to time. Infinitives do get the 'a', but not in a present/future construction like "vou comprar".

>>65808156
>Casă
Literally how we pronounce it, if google is anything to go by. We only mark the accentuated vowels, not the lowered ones, though. Most of them are lowered here (sometimes ignored, even), unlike Spanish where they open them, for example.

>>65808195
Huh. I guess that's why people on plebbit call portuguese weird.

But yeah we use ă and î a lot.

>>65807904
>>65808042
Usually, the "core" vocabulary (stuff you use everyday) is less prone to borrowings, but more prone to phonological shifts.

>>65807961
Interesting... is "cumpar" present tense indicative? It's kinda weird when compared with "compro", but the sentence above is practically the same (voi < 1st person of ir, "to go", often used to mark future tense)

>>65808105
Plenty dialects [like mine] wouldn't use the "a" in "a comprar" even for gerund - we'd say "comprando" instead.

>>65808123
Even if you stick to S.Am. dialects the thing might be subject to changes. For example:
Most dialects: "o Carlos comprou carne" (the Carlos bought meat)
Northeastern: "Carlos comprou carne" ([no article, as in English] Carlos bought meat)

BTW I disagree that giving a steak house restaurant a name like this is because of google translate. I think this could be a silly attempt to make it sound "authentic" as if meat was actually processed onsite hence "we are super fresh". For example I found "Casa della carne" in Italian which turned out to be a grocery store. Of course it is more suitable than a restaurant, but still it is not a butcher shop / macelleria.

>>65808232
Yeah, Euro Portuguese sounds Slavic. Brazilian is a bit more musical and closer to Spanish.

I don't think I've heard Romanian properly, though.

>>65808238
>Usually, the "core" vocabulary (stuff you use everyday) is less prone to borrowings, but more prone to phonological shifts.
This makes sense. But how did fruit get so mixed up, I wonder.

>we'd say "comprando" instead.
We'd say "vou comprar" or "estou a comprar", with the former indicating future and the latter present, so the infinitive isn't always preceded by the preposition. We only use the gerund in the past tense, I think. "Eu fui comprando a minha casa ao longo dos anos". I can't think of any other usual use for it.

>>65808340
It sounds fine to me, desu. It's how I'd pick the name. I'm sure nobody would misunderstand it for a house made of actual meat.

>>65804700
this guy nailed it

>>65808238
It's written cumpăr and yes it is.

>>65808368
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho8xheM6MgQ
Here's a video in standard romanian, without a regional accent or dialect.

>>65808530
Sounds like a Portuguese speaking Italian. I wasn't expecting it to sound so close. I can get like half of the words. Mostly half of each word, kek.

Here's a somewhat neutral Euro Portuguese accent, for completeness sake:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHO9CBj34IM

>>65808368
>nobody would misunderstand it for a house made of actual meat
I understand that. I was talking about something else. I was referring to naming a restaurant (a steak house) to sound like it is a butcher shop. Regardless of grammar in any specific language.

>>65808530
Razboi mondial. This is funny. Does it mean war in Romanian? In some slavic languages that means robbery.

>>65808368
>This makes sense. But how did fruit get so mixed up, I wonder.
If you're talking about the word itself: it's because the original consonant cluster (CT, fructum) was eventually changed in different ways in all child languages.

You'll see the same pattern in other words with the same cluster:
Latin, accusative - fructum, octo, noctem [CT]
Galician - froito, oito, noite [IT]
Portuguese - fruto, oito, noite [T or IT]
Spanish - frucho, ocho, noche [CH]
Italian - frutto, otto, notte [TT]
Romanian - frupt, opt, noapte [PT]

>>65808530
>cumpăr
>ă
Ah, this explains a lot - the ă probably comes from a reduced /o/.

>>65808632
Eh. We do have a word for butcher, which is Talho, but the point you're making makes sense and was just overlooked. I guess that translating house of meat was probably a poor choice, but we don't have a word for steakhouse. And a literal translation "Casa de Bifes"/"Casa dos Bifes" would imply that it was a house of Englishmen, which mainlanders usually call a variant of "rosbif".

>>65808746
I meant the actual fruits:
Maçã - Manzana
Banana - Platano
Pêssego - Melocoton
Ananás - Piña
Laranja - Naranja

Just a weird subset, that I can't find an explanation for, even though it's quite a large one. Obviously there's similarities, but they didn't stay the exact same even though Carne did, for example.

>>65808632

I really wouldn't know if 'casa de carne' refers to a store that sells meat, a slaughterhouse or a restaurant. It simply doesn't make sense in Spanish, except for the surreal concept of a house literally made of meat.

>>65808746

It's fruta in spanish. Also fruto, but thats a bit different, as in 'la uva es el fruto de la vid'. And also in figurative sense; 'tu mentira es fruto de tu frustación'

>>65808819
Ah, sorry. Got it.

This group of words is messy, specially New World stuff. And specially "pineapple", there are at least two ways to call it in both languages [ananá/piña in Spanish, ananás/abacaxi in Portuguese], due to different sources [Guarani naná, Old Tupi ibakatí, or just an analogy with pines]. The exception is orange/laranja - old as fuck borrowing, that follows common consonant shifts (/n/>/l/ if there's another /n/ after it).

>>65809038
I just checked here, it looks like Old Castillian used "frucho". My bad regardless.

And the fruto/fruta distinction exists in Portuguese too, same thing.

>>65808910
I have an unrelated question, so there is no way in the Romance languages to distinguish between "made of something" and "belong to something/someone" like the possessive case in English? Which would be the meet's house which makes no sense at all. But still it is different than "a house of meat" as in "a house made of meat".

>>65809112
I would only use "fruto" when it's still on a tree, or as a concept thought (imagination fruit). Fruta is when it's about to be eaten. Do you guys do the same?

>>65809052
I remember you from other similar threads, and you might know this. Help me settle something from a thread yesterday.

Portuguese/Luso names go: First Name, Mother Name, Father Name
Spanish/Hispano names go: First Name, Father Name, Mother Name

In both systems it's always the father's name that gets passed first (in Spain that being the middle name, and Portugal that being the last name). Anglos's system is of no help, since they only have one surname, and it's both the first and the last.

Obviously we didn't get to a consensus, but there has to have been one of us that changed it along the way for some reason.

You seem like you know your stuff from linguistics from a historic POV. Who was it?

>>65809131
Not really. When it's really ambiguous (a house of meat wouldn't be because it's ridiculous), you just say house made of meat, in this example, to make it clearer.

>>65809161
>imagination fruit
Fruit of one's imagination, I mean. I fucked up the expression.
Fruit of one's labour or work would also be fruto, but never fruta.

>>65809161
For me "fruto" is more abstract: if X produces Y, Y is the "fruto" of X.
"A uva é o fruto da videira", but "a liberdade é o fruto do trabalho"

Fruta would be more palpable, like "a uva é uma fruta".

About mother surnames: I need to check it. It's possible neither "changed" it, both might have reinvented the system, since Romans in general didn't use surnames but [first name] [clan name] [nickname/title] (for example Gaius Julius Caesar = "the Gaius guy from the Julius clan with the funny hair).

>>65809305
Yeah, makes sense. Fruta to me is exclusively something that can be eaten or used to cook. Otherwise it falls into meaning "spawn", or fruto.

About the surnames, whoever is right, at least we (lusos) don't have to explain to foreigners that our middle name is our last name.

>>65809366
>our middle name is our last name
Haha there was a long thread about it recently but I gave up quickly.

>>65809366
I found one source* claiming Portuguese naming conventions changed in the XVIII century, either by British influence or to "shun" Spanish conventions. This makes sense, considering Galicians** use the Spanish naming customs.

* https://www.quora.com/Why-are-surnames-ordered-with-the-maternal-first-then-the-paternal-according-to-Portuguese-Brazilian-naming-convention-Which-one-is-borne-by-the-offspring
See Gouvea's comment.

**https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_naming_customs#Galician_names

About being "right" or "wrong", not really. Both conventions work, and both are subject to change nowadays because of woman rights allowing you to inherit your grandmother's surname and stuff like that.

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>>65809522
Yeah it was yesterday. Pretty fun thread, actually.

>>65809541
So we did change. Huh. I was sure we had kept it from the Germanic invasion times (like the Brits from their German heritage) and that the Spaniards were the ones that changed. Even if that's so, we both changed, and we returned.

Very interesting, man. Thanks for the extra effort, too. Have a bacalhau, on the house.

>>65809662
>Have a bacalhau, on the house.
Thanks, mate. I can't remember last time I ate one of those, they're delicious.

>>65809713
Last night I hate like 12 small ones. Hadn't eaten them in ages, too. Poor as fuck as we got, the empire was worth it in the end, if only for those puppies.

I'ma go to bed now. Have a good one.