>serious discussion thread Why and when did the Southern

Colonialism

>>54936198
>American education

>>54936096
>Hell, Spain was pretty unharmed in WW2 and they still managed to fall behind the likes of Germany and France.

Man, there was a fucking civil war here you know.

The fact that Germany and France were so damaged during the war also assured a lot more foreign help from America and co.

Aside from that, Italy is the 4th largest economy on EU and Spain the 5th, with almost 50% unemployement.

>>54936096

>Spain was pretty unharmed in WW2 and they still managed to fall behind the likes of Germany and France.

Spain was rekt by the civil war and had suffered decades if not centuries of political turmoil.

>>54936096
tl;dr Industrialisation

>>54936276

Meme'ing aside, you can simply travel through Italy to see that it's noticeably behind Western European countries.

>Spain
Franco died

>Portugal
Salazar died

>Italy
Berlusconi didn't die

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>>54936096
Because we decided it, we sided with the protestants in the 30 years war.

>>54936096
For us it was the instability of of the early 20th century kinda fucked us up in terms of being on the same level with the rest of europe the our fascist regime didnt help seing that salazar was pretty mutch a super conservative guy form the in land he pretty mutch sealed portugal tight to any western influence hell the fucking slogan for our empire was proudly alone so we stayed pretty mutch stuck in the 40s until 1974

>>54936357
lad, Lombardy has a GDP per capita rate that is higher than half of England.

The North/South divide is extreme in Italy.

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>>54936096
To much or to little of an effective government that failed to effectively cooperate with merchants to create a modern economy

Long ago

>>54936379
>Salazar
mfw anon learn some history
He was literaly the reson we stayed so behind compared to the rest of the west
See>>54936403

>>54936357
Behind on what? I mean I know they are not as wealthy as northern countries but that does not mean that much.

Spain is shit on economics and we have the second largest life expectancy, only behind Japan. And a few days ago I read that Malaga, on Andalucia, one of the poorest regions on Spain, was ranked on top 10 of best European cities.

Yes we are behind, but I don't see that huge difference.

Portugal and Greece have no industry.
Spain went through a civil war.
Italy has a heavy North-South divide.

>>54936357
Lel apart from Oxbridge and some areas in London, the UK is shit.

Spain stole the gold.

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>>54936472
Here is an older one but it features several other countries.

>>54936096
The siesta meme started.

There was a shift of power from the mediterranean to the north sea round the age of enlightenment and proceeded to claim this with help of industrialization. Late 17th century or so when Spain, Portugal and Venice started to decline.

>>54936630
That shift started around 1340 and was complete by 1500-1550

>>54936573
>yfw Greece has no industry, went through a civil war and has a heavy North-South divide

>>54936464
>>54936573
The divide is still much smaller than in some countries like USA.

>>54936573
and france/Germany went through 2 world wars, yet they're less of a shithole than Spain

>>54936705
Your point? This isn't about us.
It's about comparing Southern Europe and Northern Europe.

>>54936464
Good to see you can cherrypick. Can do the same for every country.
>>54936544
Just leave the thread then. Can't believe I seriously have to justify the claim that these Southern European countries are not on the same level as Western European countries (apart from Lelgium maybe). This is a generally accepted fact.

Italy is not bad by any means, Spain isn't eithe, but the government is very corrupt as compared to say, Germany. Many regions of those countries are undeveloped.

>>54936763
My point is that blaming the divide is stupid

>>54936259
>euro banter

>>54936630
>>54936678

>shift of power

merely GDP per capita and wage growth due to the rise of lowlands manufacturies, increase in free trade and northern trade in general and importance of manpower post the black death

The seat of power was still very much in Istanbul :^)

>>54936719
Both had economic miracles + US investment

>>54936678

Isn't it a bit to early? the 16th century was Spain's height.

>>54936096
>Italy
Italy wasn't a country a few centuries ago and part of their country was already shit back then.

>>54936837
Well look at Europe in 1550

Italy was just finished being violated for half a century.

>>54936899
They got new colonies, loads of gold, habsburg rulers and a few really competent generals. But behind all of this there was no economic powerhouse, most of Spain was extremely rural or desolate.

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>>54936797
>cherrypick

Lad, Lombardy is 1/6th of Italy's population and about 1/3 of North Italy's population.

Did a Ferarri driving Fabiano steal your council house gf?

Initially, the mid 80's, due to widespread fall in demand of consumer goods, outsourcing of industry. (more then Germany, due to relatively high costs of labour combined with strong unions.)

Realistically, with the adoption of the Euro as the EU's standard currency. If anything the current Eurocrisis isn't a debt problem, its a monetary policy crisis which underlines the problems of a Northern European dominated currency in a Garlic border country.

The Reason why the French Franc, Italian Lire, Greek Drachma and Spanish Peso weren't worth shit was due to the relatively high inflation, which in turn was a result of a policy of defecit spending caused by poor tax willingness in most Southern European countries. Hence, inflation in France from 1950- 1980 was approx 5% per annum, essentially taxing any income and wealth a person has. Combined with the fact the currency was "cheap" made Southern Europe attractive for some forms of labour. Likewise, relative high interest rates on bonds kept the amount of credit fairly low in these countries.

Fact is that the Euro is essentially the D-mark with a different name, with the ECB following the exact same policy goals as the Bundesbank did before the Euro.
This in the South led to a huge credit bubble as every Juan, Fernando and Maria could get credit on German rates (which are considerably lower), leading to a huge bubble in private and government debt.

In short, the biggest problem currently for Southern Europe is that if things are good, Credit is too cheap, while at the same time, the current policy is too tight in crisis, forcing mass unemployment.

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>>54937012
>Poortugal.

>>54936983
Actually the entire territory was shit, even if the North was already better. It's stupid to say that Italy was left behind because it actually improved a lot, at least in the North, and more slowly in the South.

>>54937012

>make serious thread
>"lel did your gf get stolen bro? xDDD"

Shameful display. 1/6th of the population is still cherry-picked.

Also, your point is stupid. The fact that there is SUCH a massive disparity between North and South only strengthens my point (of Italy being behind Western Euro countries) and my question.

>>54936581
>this coming from belgium

>>54936096
After northern euros sold their souls to the protestant devil.

>>54936995

Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if Spain had used the massive wealth of the New World in developing Spain instead of funding useless religious wars all over Europe.

>>54937202
Southern Germany (mostly Catholic) is much richer than Northern Germany

>>54937236
I'm from Flanders, one of the richest regions in all of Europe, you stupid chav.

>>54937012
What happens in northern Netherlands?

>>54937236

Found that amusing too. They went 600 days without a government a few days back. Awful country. One of our mistakes.

>>54937366
Nah, it's like playing any Europan Universalis with cheat codes. You fund a huge army and go full retard. That's what Habsburgers did anyway.

>>54936705
>>54936815
Not him but in our case it's because many in the south are a bunch of dumb bible thumpers who prefer not to read any books besides the bible and watch NASCAR over anything educational. What's the cause in Italy?

>>54937381
Rural, just like Southern Italy.

>>54937202
>serious thread
>insists on stereotypes and memes

Italy is a good study case on one of the divergences (the 19th, early 20th century one i.e. the industrialisation one).
But instead of looking at the factors and whatnot you insist on being upset for some reason.
The whole north of italy (yes, the cherrypicked half, where half the population lives) is South East England tier in development and no amount of your butthurt will change that.
You may try to understand why, but please don't get upset, you silly brit.

>>54937472
How can they be at the same level as motherfucking Andalusia?

>>54937373

The differences aren't nearly as big as in Italy. On top of that, a huge part of Germany was commie for a while. Reunification was not THAT long ago.

>>54937538
It's very rural and backward. But at the same, they have a lot of space; hence, they live in big houses.

>>54937381
Fierljeppen and not much else.

>>54937030
Spanish public debt was very small before the crisis and we used the peseta.

>>54937471
what crawled up your ass and died

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>>54937471
can you explain pic related to me?

Is it just the natural geography?

>>54937538
That map shows average disposable income by person. I've always seen the Netherlands lower than their surroundings on these kind of disposable income/purchasing power maps. Look at Denmark too, it's yellow because taxes are very high there. And of course people in Extremadura aren't on the same level as Bulgaria... (yet)

>>54937560
Your own country's southern region is far richer than the northern one. In France, excluding Paris, the north is known as poor and almost bydlo tier.

>>54936678
Hmm D- go study history again in the 1340 portugal haddent even started sea exploration and the 1550 was our golden ages

>>54936096
we gave our money to jesus

>>54937708
Not him, but
North Dakota has the fastest growing economy and they struck a shitload of oil there.
Wyoming is the least populated state and has a bunch of wealthy ranchers.

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>>54936096
they didnt get behind. They still live much better and happy lives than most """"civilized"""" northern european countries. Hence why most europeans flock to the south instead of the north

>>54937471
Shitty goverment of the Bourbons and feudalism before the union, shitty government of Italy after, mafia and corruption now. There's also a mentality that values family too much and society too little, but it won't survive the next generation.

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>>54937839
We are just too lazy to emigrate. We should have done the same as the rapefugees are doing right now in the 80's.

>>54936096
>Why and when?
The reformation and individualism will have helped England, Germany, Netherlands, Scandinavia and other protestant regions to innovate and flourish economically.

>Why still shit?
Portugal and Spain had dictatorships for a long while. And Italy for a bit. I guess the Eurozone has fucked them up recently too.

>>54937827
what about Nebraska/Colorado vs Idaho/Arizona

Is it just because of the desert and the Rocky Mountains?


>>54937848
>>54937471

Also, the South is basically mountains and hills, while the north river Po valley is an infrastructure wet dream.
Neaples was actually more industrialised in the beginning of the 19th century, when industry was still smaller scale.
Sardinia-Piedmont & friends fucking over the south and Garibaldi and investing into North Italy also played a role later on....

>>54937827
>>54937708
I'd also point out that a lot of the poorer areas have a lot of mountains and desert. Colorado does have mining though but it doesn't really have any sort of production. New Mexico has the Navajo who any worth a damn leave to find work. Basically I think it's lack of industry, terrain and being tied to natural resources but its completely a guess since their culture varies a lot.

>>54937772
And have you got any information on the Portuguese economy during that period?

>>54937994
Why are you so stupid? Do you live in a council flat? You keep ignoring Flanders, Southern Germany and France. Protestant scum.

>>54938035
All these states are very different in their situations on why they're poor or rich. Some have large populations, some small, some are deserts or mountainous, some have huge cities, some are just rural, etc.
There's no defining label, but if there was I'd say it has to do with out-of-state migrants, native reservations and economic diversification.

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>>54937373
>I'm from Flanders

whatever you say

>>54937926
Where's that from? Reverse search didn't help.

>>54938319
It's Bilel

>>54938254
okay

I guess it's hard to draw any really broad distinctions apart from the New Industry/Old Industry Union and Confederacy.

>>54938108
What the fuck are you on about you Belgian cunt?

>>54936581
This. Outside of a few areas England feels like Romania. I originally got this thought from my British friend as well.

>>54938435
....He already told you.

>>54936096
tourism as a main source of income does that to your country

Friendly reminder that the only developed part of the uk is london

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>>54938566

>>54938582
POTATOES
O
T
A
T
O
E
S

>>54938598
Less like Romania and more like Poland. Clean but poor.

>>54938319
It's Beastman. Some weeks ago insecam was a thing on 4chan. People scared babies and trolled people. This particular guy is some kind of retarded japanese. He faps and sleep the whole time. For some reason they stopped making threads so I presume they got banned.

>>54938635
Tbh more like poor areas of Russia: poor and degenerate (violent crime, drugs, anti-social behaviour, slag culture, etc).

>>54938107
Yes, our school history books say one gold coin was enough to fuck your mom about 50 times

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>>54936096
>Why and when did the Southern European countries start to fall behind the Northern/Western European countries? The countries I'm talking about are mainly

Italy had a facist dictator who broke their economy.
Spain had a civil war, and a facist dictator.
Portugal, I mean really, the country is called 'poortugal' for reason.
And most of them need to take siestas from 11--16 pm


>when
Depending on who you ask, they'll either say the Mediterraneans started falling behind either during the euro, during the spanish civill war, some day they've always been behind.

>>54938721
I thought Chav culture was an urban phenomenon found in North England.

>>54938795
>Italy had a facist dictator who broke their economy.
nice meme

>>54938795
>Italy had a facist dictator who broke their economy.

t. I just made this up

>>54938799
I've been to plenty of British schools and elements of Chav culture permeate British youth culture in general. Bullying, as in physical bullying, is huge in British schools for instance, and so is abusing teachers. The atmosphere is generally aggressive and primitive. It shares traits with Black American youth culture where one actively needs to be on the social and sometimes physical defense from their peers.

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>>54938635
>>54938721
>>54938566
>>54938108
Stop this!

ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>54937538
Southen Italy is not worst than Andalucía, is even worst than Extremadura. Because of that, despite the rich Northen Italy (richer than Northen Spain), both countries are in the same level.

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>>54938912
>>54938875
He made THE TRAINS RUN ON TIME

>>54938875
I wish you were here in the thirties adding water to the petrol because of muh autarchia

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>>54939085
Not really

>>54939094
something something national syndicalism something stoopid murkans

>>54936276
>there was a fucking civil war here you know.
>what are the 3 guerras carlistas
>what are the different coups during the XIX century
>what are the magnicides commited at the end of the XIX century
>what are the 2 republics

>>54937030
>Spanish Peso
That is so fucking wrong that I didnt even read the rest

We have had many civil wars and political instability. Plus during the Franco dictatorship we didn't received a shit of the Marshall Plan. Oh and almost all our gold went to the Soviets thanks to the commie republican government.

>>54939208
Northern Italy, the Benelux, Switzerland, Southern Germany, France and England are the most populous and economically relevant in Europe. It has nothing to do with north and south.

>>54939208

https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=intent://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_regions_by_GDP%23Intent%3Bscheme%3Dhttp%3Bpackage%3Dorg.wikipedia%3BS.browser_fallback_url%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fen.m.wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FList_of_European_regions_by_GDP%3BS.android.intent.extra.REFERRER_NAME%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.es%3BlaunchFlags%3D0x8080000%3Bend&ved=0ahUKEwiE2Z6g3vDKAhVLVhQKHfpjAJIQjjgITTAL&usg=AFQjCNHBowofFJybzubx74fzlhsGLn4dKw&sig2=1iZTSDU2rH2lTRlo9ByncA

Campania, Calabria, Sicilia...

Think that Spain and Italy have practically the same GDP per capita and IDH.

>>54936096
They figured out that meaning of life is not in rat race after gdp numbers, but in having fun, drinking wine, sleeping in and porking a hot wife.

>>54939801
What about Czech people? Did you already figure that scamming tourists and prostitution doesn't pay off?

>>54939875
Who says it doesn't? :^)

I'd say some have figured it out as well, but we don't have sea or as much sun, leading to sense of deprivation. People from winery regions tend to be more laid back, regardless.

>>54939875
Bit grouchy you m8. Is that Belgian/Catholic induced poverty getting you down?

>>54940005
>Flanders
>poor
I hope you are joking.

>>54940055
Might be rich for Belgian standards.

>>54940089
And very rich by Britbong standards.

>>54940147
Maybe we have strange perceptions in the UK then. I would have thought with the UK being a wealthier country, it would be the other way around.

>>54936096
>serious answer
You're too dumb to understand. Brush your rotten teeth and fuck off.

>>54939610
the blue banana?

>>54940434

>ruled by Turks for 500 years

>>54940434
Why are you so buttblasted about the UK? Did your toilet cleaning application get rejected?

>>54936096

When the Mediterranean stopped being the centre of the world, and technology made the Atlantic Ocean more safe. Notice that many traditional centres of wealth and power, like the Ottomans, began to see their decay with the discovery of oceanic routes that bypassed them. Before then, they held the keys to the wealth of Asia. After then, they weren't so important anymore.

>>54940497
>ruled by Turks for 500 years
And maintained our unique cultural identity, gained national conscious, kicked the turks and build a strong and powerful empire. Meanwhile Britbongs are French villagers, later Roman province.

>>54940536
Ugly retarded mutants irritate me. I can't help myself. You probably work as a toilet cleaner for a Bulgarian company, if you're lucky they`ll send you here to head their offices. Britbong. Im actually surprise you know how to type, given your low literacy levels.

>>54939694
>GDP per capita
>meaningful
The map I gave you is based on actual purchasing power

>>54940830
>tfw Bulgarian whores like your sister literally lick my arsehole for £40

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>>54940830
>Ugly retarded mutants irritate me. I can't help myself. You probably work as a toilet cleaner for a Bulgarian company, if you're lucky they`ll send you here to head their offices. Britbong. Im actually surprise you know how to type, given your low literacy levels.

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>>54936444
how could be Mexico wealthier than us, while looking like Middle East? Have American cinema lied to me again?

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>>54940830
BUTTHURT
U
T
T
H
U
R
T

>>54937012
How is Denmark that low?

>>54940830
> Bulgarians bragging about living standards

>>54940830
hahahahhaah fucking loser

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>>54936096

Spain inflated its economy with South American gold, then you sunk their navy.

Italy has been irrelevant since Rome collapsed. Most of its history has been of separate city-states and territories, much like Germany. But unlike Germany it never had respect for ordnung and production, so unification didn't do much.

Portugal was among the first to colonize but didn't leverage their method, just like France. France set up a bunch of worthless fur traders, and Portugal sailed the world twice-over and set up a bunch of coastal trading posts. Eventually those countries kicked them out, like Japan, for being loud and rowdy (the Dutch and Americans replaced Portugal in Japan).

Overall it's a mixture of a.) not being able to replicate the glory of Rome, which admittedly is a hard thing to do and b.) being retards at colonization, which is also a hard thing to do. Technically speaking, looking at all the colonies in the world right now, I can only conclude that the British were successful.

>>54940965
Bulgarian whore need to be in a whore friendly country, so the most natural decision was to move to England. By the way the Bulgarian whores are all gypsies, so you just admitted to fucking a gypsy hahah which is not surprising since your mom is an indian and your dad a paki. britbong.

>>54941021
ROTTEN TEETH
O
T
T
E
N

T
E
E
T
H

>>54941178
>new zealand defending his overlords
Go suck a sheep dick or something

>>54941193
nice argument britbong

>>54941853
>Italy has been irrelevant since Rome collapsed.
Pretty sure Italy was the richest and one of the most culturally relevant European countries until the 15th century at least, but I don't expect Americans to know basic history so it's fine.

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>>54941004
>Have American cinema lied to me again?

No we haven't lied to you, because a big chunk of Mexico's wealth is tied up by the cartels. Poland's wealth is a lot more distributed.

You may have gopnik criminals here and there, but nothing you have compares to the cartel.

unless Russia annexes you again, maybe

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>>54936096
Being homogeneously shit isn't something you should take pride in, Nigel

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Because this became less rellevant with the discovery of America and better tools for oceanic-going travel.

>>54941959
>Pretty sure Italy was the richest

You didn't exist for most of European history

Venice and Milan did. That's why I called you irrelevant, because nonexistence is the highest form of irrelevance (like Belgium).

>>54941853
>americanpost.tiff

>>54942191

calm down slovakia, go find a thread that bothers to discuss your very important history

it might take 200 years, but you'll find a thread, I promise

If I'm correct Portugal and Spain pretty much didn't invest in their development after finding gold in the americas. So they just became gradually left behind.

>>54942110
Pretty sure the Italian boot formed some million years ago and it wasn't empty after the WRE collapsed.
The fact that a big army and a ing wasn't there to declare the whole country under one ruler doesn't make it less of a geographical unit.

Brits btfo itt

>>54942289
my, aren't you a mature boy. With sarcasm and all!

I recommend opening a book once in a while.

>>54937708

>louisiana 18th

How is this even possible?

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>>54942688
We won this thread m8

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>>54937708

Mississippi river. The world's largest naturally interconnected and navigable waterway system overlaying arable land.

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>>54942723

I did, that's why I'm posting arguments instead of being a snide smug content-less Europoor. You're on par for your region though... arrogance without accomplishment.

>>54942644

Go back to >>54936096 and read
>Why and when did the Southern European countries

>countries

and stop posting

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>>54940830
this guy again

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>>54943009

The river argument lines up slightly, but here's a more accurate chart

>>54943288

It's just not the Mississipi. It's all the tributary smaller rivers connected to it.

>>54943498

Yup, the eastern tributaries lead to red zones (besides Illinois, a green state in a deep sea of red) and the western tributaries are generally green but eventually lead to deep red (Idaho, Montana).

I guess if you expunge those 3 exceptions, it might be a pretty good model for east/west tributaries

>>54943288
Those deep green states have commodity driven, export oriented economies
They're rich just as the gulf countries are rich.

>>54941967
Fucking Norway wins again

>>54944002
It's a snownigger oil-country.

>>54943238
i will hunt you in your dreams, im your worst nightmare, they call me britbong hunter.

>>54944080
And Protestant

>>54944256
Unlike Britain (Islamic).

>>54944290
>"country" with more Muslims calling us Islamic
>"country" with less wealth calling us poor

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>>54944219
>the bulgar britbong hunter

>>54944573
Brussels is home to pretty much all our Muslims. Flanders is for the most part free of them. Flanders is richer than England and has fewer Muslims than England.

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>>54944219
>about to go to bed
>decide to read muh /int/ stories before bed
>see this
mfw

>>54944680
>comparing muh special snowfake region because your "country" is too pathetic

>>54944910
It's not a snowflake region. About 10 million people live in Belgium and 6 million of them (3/5) live in Flanders.

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>>54944993
>10 million people

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>Lelgium

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>>54945093
>>54945223
Kikkerpalers.

>>54938915
Brit here
can confirm
As a general rule, if someone looks like a chav they are a chav

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>>54945284

>>54944219
How does it feel knowing a homeless British person has a better quality of life than you?

>>54936464
>The North/South divide is extreme in Italy.
that is because of germanicism

north are more lightskinned than south so they think they are superior and south italians are stupid because they arent fair

fucking stupid bullshit

>>54936797
>but the government is very corrupt as compared to say, Germany
germany govt is corrupt
look at the refugee crisis

>>54945912
Refugee crisis shows the German government is desperate, to solve its demographic crisis, not corrupt. It's desperation.

Look at the Nordstream deal with Russia if you want to see German government corruption

>>54946074
>to solve its demographic crisis
importing uneducated, different religion and culture people dont solve anyone demographic

>>54940830
>And maintained our unique cultural identity
that is because of the millets system, if ottocucks wanted to genocide you all they could have but making the gavur just pay extra taxes, provide food and devshirme children and shut up is easier

>>54946074
I'd sooner believe that they are bringing violent young blacks in to inoculate complacent german society with violence and will to fight in some grand social engineering experiment than that they honestly believe that a wave of rape by "syrians" will produce new steve jobs' for their economy.

I understand that elites and politicians tend to be disconnected from ordinary man's reality but this is a bit too much.

>>54936096
OP, where did you get that back? what is it of?

>>54947699
sorry had a stroke. i meant where did you get that map from? what is it of?

>>54947699
Area colonized by Europe...

>>54948116
>are colonized by europe
>turkey
u wot?

>>54936096
>>54936379
>>54936403
Portugal's downfall has a well defined start date: it's 1580, the year we Lost our independence to spain, and, thus, our trading superiority. More than half of the """Spanish""" Armada defeated by the English was ours. That was the beginning of the end. The lineage of kings that followed the 1640 independence was, so to say, subpar, and when monarchy fell in 1910 we were largely in debt. The Primeira República made things way worse, and when Salazar appeared we were virtually bankrupt. Over the next decades,he did fill our vaults with gold, but the civilizational delay and the poverty in which the average Portuguese lived in 1974 when the regime fell more than outweighted the gold.
Between 74 and 86, we had 2 FMI interventions thanks to our great left governments post-dictatorship. After 86, when we entered the CEE, it was a mix between our politicians misusing european funds on useless public works made by their friends's companies, and the EU effectively paying our farmers/fishers/etc not to producproduce anything, so that we could feed France's and Gewmoney's economy.
For a better analysis, look for "Causas da decadência dos povos peninsulares".