>German Tornado jets deployed to Syria cannot fly at night

Sshhh, let them produce cars, not tanks again.

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>>53829104
They don't need an efficient military
There's britbongs and us already.

If we entered an all out war they'd do the logistic part.

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Everyone knows the German military is shit

But the worst meme on /int/, which the majority here seem to *unironically* believe, is that the Germans could suddenly decide to get good and "German industry" would allow them to churn out tanks and fighters and become a ferocious war machine within months.

You know who you are. Yes, you, reading this, probably believe this bullshit. It is bullshit that will nevertheless be mentioned in this thread so I am pre-empting it. How long would it take for the Germans to get good, probably a decade or longer.

>brace for butthurt

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Leopard II and PZH 2000 are masterpieces though.

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>>53829192
They do produce some weapons systems that are good, but the attention they pay to their armed forces, to their own defense is meager.
>>53829270
So they're like the prison bitch of Europe.
"We will protect you if you clean our cell, wash our clothes, make our food and suck our dicks. Are we not merciful?"

>>53829104
shit that happens in every army ever man .

>German Tornado jets deployed to Syria cannot fly at night due to the pilots being blinded.
have you ever been outside at night ? you cant see shit .
you dont wana fly a plane in these conditions you'll crash it into something .

>>53829422
Well...I suppose you're right..

>>53829422
There are some top-tier German arms manucfacturers, I've no doubt they could put out high quality armour, guns, artillery, vehicles in a short amount of time.

But jets, naval shipping and advanced munitions? lel

I know what you mean, often see people posting how Germany could get nuclear weapons capability overnight because they have had nuclear power stations.

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>>53829629
Meant to post this.

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>>53829629
Logistic is a very important part of war, as important as fighting.
But yes their fate would be in our hands.

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>>53829841
The biggest issue is training and war experience

What makes the British Army deadly above all else is the fact that the majority of our regulars have warfighting experience

>>53829925
What areas of logistics are the Germans good at then? Do they have something of similar quality to our 37,000 tonne fast fleet tankers, C-17 strategic transport and Voyagers?

>>53829104
What do you expect? We are ruled by companies. They can sell any shit to the army. See what they did with the G36? Try to lobby all critism out of the way. Companies dont do no fighting, just buying politicians...

Our NH90 copters never work either.

>>53830568

Well, uezs, that G36 thing is strange. I grew up among military people and the only complains, I heard have been due to the caliber. I was told that you rarely shoot a lot of rounds in Dauerfeuer.

>>53830112
>What makes the British Army deadly above all else is the fact that the majority of our regulars have warfighting experience

My sides

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>>53829104
why have a decent military when americans can protect you and feel good about it? :^)

>>53829104
They can always buy planes from France and guns from us.

>>53829104
Didn't the german military minister cut funding by 90% or something?

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>>53829422
>

>>53831877
Yes, this.
We have nearly eliminated our defense budget because know usa has our back.
Because of this we can put a lot of money into the economy and social welfare. Its literally impossible to be poor here unless you choose to be

>>53831750
What's funny? You don't think experience is important?

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>>53832146

>>53832046
>an american posts this
>lets multiple school shootings happen every year

>>53829270
No we'd do the logistic part it's our specialty

>>53832146
Oh I do, but what relevant combat experience are you talking about?

>>53832099
It's increasing again, but only with like 5%

>>53830112

Don't you have like, 10 c-17s?

Fucking lol.

>>53832489
>Oh I do, but what relevant combat experience are you talking about?
In the Iraq War, Britain deployed 50,000 troops at peak which was half of the Army back then. That war and Afghanistan continued for many years. Through rotation, much of the Army was involved.

Furthermore, the British Army was often involved in the toughest areas of Afghanistan and Iraq. Especially Afghanistan is a tough place to fight.

Many of the veterans in these wars are still in the Army, and newer recruits will fight alongside them in future wars. It's a battle-hardened force and those are always, always less likely to break

We are making our next MBT with Germany, I'm scewrd nao

>>53832614
How many do you think the other European countries have?

Time to use refugees.

>>53830112
>experience

Maybe compared to everyone else in Europe but you guys have shit for experience compared to Brits in the 50-80's.

Bombing sandniggers, transporting some bombs, and driving a humvee is not serious experience.

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>Many of the veterans in these wars are still in the Army, and newer recruits will fight alongside them in future wars. It's a battle-hardened force and those are always, always less likely to break

>>53830647
How are your Dutch tanks doing?

It is called budget cuts - german work hours are pretty expensive.

>>53829422
>How long would it take for the Germans to get good, probably a decade or longer.
I agree with everything except this. Assuming they suddenly decide to git gud and do everything to git gud, including inviting over experts with experience from more belligerent countries like France, the UK and the US, it would take them a handful of years at worst.

Then again, that does imply reliance on the goodwill of foreign countries.

>>53832489
>but what relevant combat experience are you talking about?
You mean other than being deployed in nearly ever war America started in the past few decades?

The Dutch air assault infantry (aka choppers) are integrating into the German military.

>>53832614
>when you realise that despite this Britain still has the most heavy airlift capability in Europe
Yes, we are boned.

>>53832803
They won't even fight for their own countries. Also our troops who tried training Iraqis in maintenance found them incompetent and lazy.

>>53832933
Isn't your Defense Minister the former Minister of Education?

>>53829104
>NH90 helicopters
blame italians for that mess 2bh
we ordered some and there was a huge delay of several years

>>53833096
here's an intersting article pertaining to this subject

http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

>>53833053
Doesn't Germany have more A-400's?

>>53832660
>50,000 troops

You mean troops and support members. That was also more than a decade ago.

After your army cuts it's likely only 20-30k of those people are still in the military.

Relatively speaking the UK is probably more experienced than America and Europe.
Absolutely speaking no one other than the SAA and Jihadists are experienced in this day and age. We haven't fought a serious war since 2003.

>>53833204
>A-400's

ordered 60, 3 delivered so far, also,

>Order reduced from 60 to 53 (plus 7 options),[99] and will try to resell 13, leaving 40

>>53829104
I'm surprised Germans even have military after all the bullying they get. Doubt they fund it well.

>>53833204
>Doesn't Germany have more A-400's?
Not yet, besides it's not like the UK isn't buying some too, though less I will admit.

Besides, we all know they'll immediately fall into disrepair.

>>53832660
Literally 25 years ago. How far do you want go back? You can't tell me with a straight face you still have guys over the age of 50 running around as infantry

>battle-hardened force
Come one dude, kek

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>>53829104
>tfw budding Luftwaffe soldier

>>53833418
nope

>>53829104
>Germany is the bullseye on that target
When attacking America Kansas is the bullseye.
We dont have any enemies around us, we arent threatened. We have the luxury ofbeing surrounded by thousands of kilometers of stable countries with extensive relationships and economic connections and its in literally no ones interest to attack Germany. There are no direct threats so why invest in a military?
>>53829841
Nuclear weapons are produced easily. Stuff uranium dust in a bomb, explode that over an area. Nice dirty bomb.
An idiot could make that. And even chemical weapons would wrack havoc in a modern city. Dont think so? Got your gas mask ready?
>>53829629
"We will protect you if you clean our cell, wash our clothes, make our food and suck our dicks. Are we not merciful?"
No Scheckbuchdiplomatie. You fight. We offer some trinkets and ammo as help.
>>53832952
Two thirds of your standing military is integrated into the German army desu.
https://www.thetrumpet.com/article/11998.2.0.0/world/military/germany-is-building-a-european-army-before-your-eyes

>>53832410
>Image showing cuckistan at its finest
>"Durr but u support freedom haha dumb americans"
When will it end?

>>53833418
We dont and nobody wants to see it funded. Why should we?

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>>53833456
reminder that you'll never do nothing wrong :^)

>>53833418
>fund military well
>those jerries are at it again

>fund it badly
>lol why u even military

>>53833418
Nope. Shitty funding, populace and politicians with a morbidly aversion against anything military related and inconvenient company-orientated armament projects fucks the Bundeswehrs shit up.

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>>53832877
>Bombing sandniggers, transporting some bombs, and driving a humvee is not serious experience.
This would be a good point if it described the experience of British troops in those countries, but it doesn't, so it's a shit point

>>53832940
> it would take them a handful of years at worst.
You are insane. The British Army is taking until 2025 to form up 2 new Strike Brigades and transition from a 3-year to a 2-year readiness cycle. The result will be 50,000 troops ready for expeditionary warfare at short notice rather than 35,000. This is a much better-funded, more experienced and capable force with a wider variety of vehicles and tools to draw on.

You're saying Germany can get on that level from a MUCH lower base in just a few years? You have absolutely no idea.

>>53833437
>Literally 25 years ago.
Why are you blatantly lying?

>>53829104
Polish politicians when Germany is strong: "Fuck those nazis. NAZIS EVRYWHERE! Vote me! Only I can save you from the NAZIS!"
Polish politicians when Germany is weak: "Why wont you nazis help us? We deserve people who die for us! Why wont you invest in some military??"

Others will complain anyways so why spend money?

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>>53833962
>>53833666

just keep reducing that budget, I'd rather a few Slovenes died in the desert than Klause sperging out in Europe :^)

>>53833204
>Doesn't Germany have more A-400's?
A400M are not true strategic transporters. They are tactical. And there's a hell of a lot you can't fit inside them.

>>53833602
Cause a country like Germany needs an effective and flexible army

>>53834094
No problem with that to be honest. If you want to fight wars we dont thats your own thing.
>>53834208
No.
In fact we could roll out our old Messerschmidts. Only real purpose for the German army is to make the American wars look more legitimate. They can say: "The whole civilized world stands behind us!" as long as a few guys from a lot of nations are standing around somewhere safe.

If we would have a real army it would only cost us money and our "allies"would want to see us fighting for real. Which would cost even more money and is against everything the population wants.
Every time there is a war we pay for some bombs others throw and then make contracts with the people there who arent as pissed on us as if we would fight for real. Great deal for everyone.

>>53829422

Now listen here, Nigel Mohammedson;

Literally everyone in Europe rides the German Panzer nowadays, except the Ukucks, the French and the Italians. Evenin far away, god forsaken places likeCanadia they ride the German Panzer.

Now I don't know what's wrong with the Italians, they ride some updated M48 or some Fiat Macarroni and fly the F-104 Starjew. We and the French tried to saved them, but we failed and they fell under the yoke of the Hassbergers... I think that's in the origin of all the flaws of Italy.

But going back to the German Panzer, we are the only ones that actually build it too (under license, but we do).

What does the United Kukdom build? Uh? Muh challenger? Lots of foreign pieces there and probably assembled in Malaysia. At least the French build their own panzer.
Muh nuclear submarines with muh trident missiles?

Let me tell you something, Nigel; MADE IN MURICA

Yes.

They are just gracious enough to permit their bestest and most attentive goyim, the United Kukdom, use the murican made missile with a murican made nuclear warhead.

tl;dr go back to manufacturing 100% brit pots and kettles, Mr. Mohammedson.

>>53829104
>germans
>hardworking
TOP KEK
germans are the laziest motherfucker in europe, they always tried to enslave others to do their job for them

>>53832660

Not to mention your crown prince have been down flying Apachees and raining dakka on towelheads

Americans thought they could cuck Germany and get the Wehrmacht as an ally. Instead, a cuck country only produced a cuck army, who would've thought?

>>53834643
>>>>/pol/
Or just cut that siesta and learn English.

>>53829104
German military capacity is deliberately diminished as a political act. The German state fucking hates its military, and whenever it can it fucks them over it personnel.

The only thing Germany has going for it is the already existing equipment and exports. But the dearth between the military and the military-capacity is real. Just logistically it would take years to build up a competent standing military.

Politically? Decades or more before Germany actually has an effective force. If they ever start building one.

>>53834733
>Poland
>Calls others lazy motherfuckers
We've got under 50,000 of you cucks here and the "lazy pole" stereotype still exists.

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>>53834866
The German army is still limited to a certain number.
Im just waiting for a Russian invasion of Estonia and we will sit here with 80 million people and tell them how sorry we that we cant send no one because we arent allowed to. What a shame really.

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>>53834946

>United Kukdom independent military industry

>>53834733
does it ever get boring to constantly whine about Germany and Russia?

>>53829104
>>53830568
>>53830861
G36 being bad is a meme, soldiers that used it in afghanistan had no complaints. they will literally only retire it because of the media.

The root of all problems is the fundiing and the man power. Both were cut down dramatically after the end of the cold war. We could fix this anytime we want but we don't make new debts so no money for the Bundeswehr.

>>53829104
all german money goes toward importing and the welfare of the bulls for the german wives
it's pretty logical, they have to skimp on something

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>>53834643
>What does the United Kukdom build? Uh? Muh challenger?
EVERY single British warship is made in the UK. The Typhoon fighter can be 100% made in the UK if necessary. Hell the F-35s are partly made in Britain, every single one of them, including the thousands that we are NOT buying. We even make 30% of the new Gripen! Which is how we were able to block Sweden from selling them to the Argies.

Yes many of our land vehicles are made by foreign companies, but that's not a big deal because the Army is merely the fist of the Royal Navy, a tool of aggression when we need to intervene somewhere else. It is the Royal Navy that actually defends this country and safeguards our trade, and all Royal Navy warships and submarines are made in the UK.

>the United Kukdom, use the murican made missile with a murican made nuclear warhead.
You fucking liar. The UK's nuclear warheads are made in BRITAIN.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_Weapons_Establishment

>The Atomic Weapons Establishment (AWE) is responsible for the design, manufacture and support of warheads for the United Kingdom's nuclear deterrent.

Nice try Pablo but you resorted to lies and that invalidates everything that you said and will subsequently say in this thread

>>53834583
Yeah cause all those German dead in 9/11, Djerba, Bali or now Istanbul were only collateral damage, right?

Sheltered tinfoil heads like you need to realize that Germany has enemies and not every war is fought for the USA or "muh corpurashuns".

Also do you seriously think any of our potential enemies would take us seriously if we have no, zero, nada, null means to project or protect our interests with force?

Leave your soap bubble for once and think about it.

>>53836336
>Yeah cause all those German dead in 9/11, Djerba, Bali or now Istanbul were only collateral damage, right?
I didn't even know Germans died there.

If anything they were unfortunate victims of rare events that barely ever happen and shouldn't worry us too much.

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>>53834583
You're an idiot so I'll make this simple for you.

Do events outside Germany affect Germany?
YES

Therefore you need a foreign policy. Therefore you need the ability to conduct "the continuation of politics by other means" - war. Abroad.

NO ONE is isolated from what happens elsewhere.

There are only two types of countries in this world. Those that are influenced by events, and those that have the ability TO influence events.

>>53836624
>war is the only way to influence events
I bet you think Switzerland is a irrelevant country.

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>>53834643
>Evenin far away, god forsaken places likeCanadia

>>53836556
They would happen way more often if we didn't fight and cripple them wherever and whenever possible.

By now we're just lucky others do the heavy lifting for us and snackbars are too incompetent/lack the means to wage a full-scale war against us.

Just image a real and proper country would declare war against us (either fighting us directly or indirectly like trying to cut off trading/supply routes or resources).
If we wouldn't have an (effective) army like you propose we'd stand there with our dicks hanging out.
And no, you can't look into the future and political situations can change way faster than you're able to rearm so don't try to exclude the possibility of any wars/conflicts taking place in the future.

>>53836813
>Comparing Switzerland and Germany

What's next? We don't need an army because Costa Rica can afford not having one aswell?

>>53836994
Bist du überhaupt Volksdeutscher?

Every time I read nonsense like this I suspect that I'm talking to an American.

Especially given the fact that you're talking about "cripple them" when we're factually not even involved in this sort of shit at a large scale. Or do you think the adventure in Afghanistan has an effect on what's happening in the rest of the Arab world except that Jihadi Tourists might visit another location instead and bring Chaos to some other country.

>>53836813
>war is the only way to influence events
I never said that, moron. But you need the entire toolbox at your disposal to be a credible world power, the military is one of the vital tools for the state.

>I bet you think Switzerland is a irrelevant country.
Yes, they are. Did you know the Swiss literally pay the EU to tell them what to do? Same with Norway. They are not members of the EU and have no input into making EU rules, but they follow the majority of them and pay up. They do what they're told.

Because they have NO choice. Events that happen outside of Switzerland take the decision away from them. The Swiss maintain the illusion of choice with their referenda addiction but at the end of the day, their economy can't survive a refusal to comply and pay up.

Tell me more about how the huge Swiss influence in the world? This is going to be good. I'm waiting for something like along the lines of "they country the bankers at Davos" or something stupid like that

>>53837287
>"they country the bankers at Davos"
control*

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>>53829906
Ion Cannon when

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>>53835367
Hey bitchboy, let's see you reply to this >>53836316

Take your time. I'll put the kettle on.

>>53837187
Ja ich bin Deutscher.

...und ja wir sind insofern involviert, als dass wir in Afghanistan/Irak/Türkei miteingebunden sind.

Failes states als potentielle Spielplätze können/sind auch für D gefährlich.

Selbst wenn man das alles leugnet ist es naiv zu denken ein Exportland und Schwergewicht wie D bräuchte keine Armee. Man kann ja in die Zukunft sehen und wenn was passiert Händchen halten und so alles regeln und falls das nicht hilft können ja immer noch die USA und andere NATO Staaten alles für uns rausreißen ...nicht

>>53833153
nope, family shit

thats why the first thing she did was to introduce daycares for the army

>>53837633
>Ja ich bin Deutscher.
Aber kein Volksdeutscher?

>Failes states als potentielle Spielplätze können/sind auch für D gefährlich.
Die Peripherie Europas zu stabilisieren ist im Interesse Deutschlands, aber das ganze muss nicht über eine nationale Armee erfolgen. Die Briten haben seit jeher andere ihre Schlachten schlagen lassen.

>Germany, you cannot have a large military
>Ist ja gut!, we won't maintain a military
>Germany, your military sucks
>Ist ja gut!, we will churn out dem Panzers, Luftwaffles and we will restart dem U-2030 program it can sink American, French and Russian subs ja

>>53837470
More like Earl Gay. Drink some proper tea.

>>53836316

Most countries build their own warships. And with a very few exceptions (and Ukuk is not one of them) fill them with murican electronics, murican radars, murican weapons systems, murican GPS satellite connection and etc. But congratulations on building your own hulls and on-board toilets.

>Le Eurofighter

Nigel pls... when was the last time that you had a 100% british fighter plane? WW2

>le trident

It's a murican missile graciously handed over to you. The warhead might be british, but tested in Murica with murican equipment. On your own, you are currently nuclear incapable, unlike France.

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>>53837954
>Die Peripherie Europas zu stabilisieren ist im Interesse Deutschlands, aber das ganze muss nicht über eine nationale Armee erfolgen. Die Briten haben seit jeher andere ihre Schlachten schlagen lassen.
Wrong wrong wrong.

1. Germany's interests are GLOBAL, just like every single other country whether they admit or not.

2. Britain often organises coalitions but its own military is always involved, otherwise it wouldn't work. You probably focus on land campaigns and ignore Britain's prominent naval role in every single important war we've fought in. If our navy was shit then fewer countries would listen to us. As a land power Germany NEEDS a strong army.

>>53838039
>Germany, you cannot have a large military
Bullshit. Complete bullshit. The German military during the Cold War was fucking huge. No one is telling Germany to keep their military small, many of us would prefer them to have a larger military.

>>53838042
Literally kill yourself

People go to Bundeswehr for free McDonalds and a good time.

>>53838335
>Literally

Fuck off, Yank.

>>53829104
>When people talk shit about attacking Europe, Germany is the bullseye on that target and this is the state of their military?

Because shittalk on the internet and dickwaving contests between countries doesn't translate to real wars

>>53838335
>1. Germany's interests are GLOBAL, just like every single other country whether they admit or not.
No, they're not. But if everyone else has global interests too, then I'm certain we'll find some overlap of interests which suits us and lets them take care of the issues.

>2. Britain often organises coalitions but its own military is always involved
A few men tend to be involved, but the majority of the fighting is done by others.

>>53838216
I gave you a second chance and you managed to lie/get it wrong with your very FIRST sentence

>>53838587
>No, they're not.
Yes, they are. What happens in China and the South China Sea matters to Germany. You think your economy won't be affected by a disruption to trade by the Straits of Malacca? The Middle-East matters for reasons so blatantly obvious I don't need to say. Russia matters, the Americas, Africa, everything. It's all connected. As a large economy and a member of the largest economic union in the world, it's all even more important to you.

>But if everyone else has global interests too, then I'm certain we'll find some overlap of interests
Correct, one always had to compromise. But how does the overlap work? How much of Germany's interests will have to be conceded to the other party? The stronger you are, the less you need to concede.

>A few men tend to be involved, but the majority of the fighting is done by others.
Looks like my comment about naval warfare completely passed you by. Or maybe you're one of those idiots who decides the important countries by looking at the biggest "manpower" number in the wikipedia summary table

Think about the Napoleonic Wars. Small British land forces that relied on other continental powers to win battles on land. But without the Royal Navy, Napoleon would never have needed to invade Russia and he would probably have dominated the Continent.

>>53838611

Ok. I'll rephrase it: many yuro countries build their own warships. Happy now?

Gosh, Nigel, accept your cucking status...

Also,

>my pepesmug.jpg face when UKuk had to beg pretty pls to the Muricans to hastily give them sidewinders to equip their harriers and fight Argentina in 1982.

>>53829422
fucking THIS

>>53839160
>Ok. I'll rephrase it: many yuro countries build their own warships. Happy now?
No, I'm not. In fact many Euro countries build warships in a collaboration. Even France, the second European naval power, builds its frigates and destroyers with Italy not on its own. Stop digging, Enrique.

>le Sidewinders on le Harriers
Yeah that wasn't ideal. However it does make me note our improved position today, when it's very likely we will be selling British Brimstone missiles to the Americans

Indeed most of the missiles we use are not American, some of the best missiles on the market, like Meteor, are not American

>>53838977
>What happens in China and the South China Sea matters to Germany.
Luckily it also matters to China and the US and they're well capable of taking care of their backyard. And when it comes to the other things I'm fairly certain you'll find lots of people who are more responsible, capable and willing to take care of things than us.

>How much of Germany's interests will have to be conceded to the other party? The stronger you are, the less you need to concede.
Military strength is not the only factor. Economic appeal and economic benefits you can grant to others is another factor. In the end, lots of things come together. Germany is not a global power, Germany is not the world police. There are things which aren't our businesses.

>without the Royal Navy, Napoleon would never have needed to invade Russia and he would probably have dominated the Continent.
The point is: the bulk of the fighting was done by others. You focussed on what you did well. And we focus on what we do well. And we'll see how things work out.

I'm not all too worried about the future, we've been through much worse throughout history after all.

>>53833053
We have more tactical airlift than you do though

>>53833188
how come everyone complains about the NH90 while ours just werk
>>53833666
That's just bullshit, Germany's land army was as big as France's if not bigger during the cold war

>>53833931
>You're saying Germany can get on that level from a MUCH lower base in just a few years? You have absolutely no idea.
Not that I don't agree, but the bottleneck here isn't experience or general know-how, it's funding. With adequate funding the UK could be done with that in 2 years tops

The truth is halfway between your claims desu

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>>53839440

>>53839511
>I'm not all too worried about the future, we've been through much worse throughout history after all.
I think most people would rather be a big Austria. Germany is in no condition to fight a war anyways. The current military is enough to defend Germany itself and a mobilization is impossible as people are fat, without training and unwilling to fight. Even if, our military is, luckily in my opinion, restricted to a low amount of people and our contribution would be minimal.
Hell, Im conservative and wouldnt lift a finger against a Russian invasion of lets say Estonia or any other NATO country. We might as well leave NATO officially.

>>53839739
Nigga are you serious

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>thread about the state of the German military
>the UK comes in shits up the place because he doesn't get enough attention

JUST

Anyway, Germany has no overseas territories to protect and no real military threat from any nation around or close to it, so it makes some kind of sense they don't have the same military capability (and doctrine) as the UK and France. What's pitiful though, is that they actually have a pretty big defense budget and they seem to just waste it. Look at the new F125-class frigates they're building for example.

>150 m length
>7200 tonnes displacement
>will the biggest frigate class active in the world
>built by ThyssenKrupp

Sounds good so far, right? Just wait

>designed for piracy and peacekeeping missions
>no VLS
>no torpedos
>subpar sensor suite
>only one gas turbine, slow top speed
>€650 million a pop
>won't be able to operate alone in high threat environments

They're literally spending €2.5 billion euros on glorified OPVs

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>>53839511
>Luckily it also matters to China and the US and they're well capable of taking care of their backyard
Of course they are. But when the conflict is over it's the WINNING PARTICIPANTS who dictate the new rules in said backyard. A German should understand this point better than anyone else. You WANT to be at the table, at every important global table. Otherwise you are going to following the rules of others

>Military strength is not the only factor. Economic appeal and economic benefits you can grant to others is another factor. In the end, lots of things come together.
I never said it was the only factor. But having a full spectrum gives you greater influence.

>There are things which aren't our businesses.
It's your business whether you like it or not. You have no choice whether things affect you. They do. Your decision is only how to deal with that: have the ability to project power or allow others to project their interests onto your country

>>53839739
See pic related then kill yourself you HFCS-saturated fat fuck

And Brimstone is from the UK
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brimstone_(missile)

>>53839739
>MBDA, the Euro missiles giant is an American company

(you)

>>53839902
>the UK comes in shits up the place because he doesn't get enough attention

Germany would be better if they took my advice, I'm doing them a favour, famfam

>>53839440
>MBDA
>British

No. And come one, no one can fully built surface combatants on their own. The Daring-class if full of foreign parts too, like diesel generators, propulsion system, most of your sensor suite, anti-air missiles, anti-ship missiles, CIWS

>>53839962
>You WANT to be at the table, at every important global table. Otherwise you are going to following the rules of others
And being militarily involved isn't the only relevant factor.

>I never said it was the only factor. But having a full spectrum gives you greater influence.
Perhaps so, but not in every situation it's reasonable to invest in every area. If you have oversea territories, if you're generally involved elsewhere, it makes a lot of sense to invest in this sort of thing. We aren't though, and that's why we're focussing on different things.

>Your decision is only how to deal with that: have the ability to project power or allow others to project their interests onto your country
Military means aren't the only way to do that. Especially within the Inner-European sphere.

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>>53839868
>>53839962
>>53840012
>Meteor

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>>53840262

>>53833540
>Kansas is the bullseye.
What

>>53840304
Oh, I'm laffin.

>>53840098
I think you should sort your own country out first. When you're done, you can come back to ours.

>>53840194
Erm where did I say MBDA was British?? In a later post I highlighted how it's European. I said Brimstone was British and it is.

>No. And come one, no one can fully built surface combatants on their own.
Well yeah, the latest US Navy Zumwalt Class ships use Rolls Royce gas turbines. But parts can be replaced with those from another country if necessary, what's hard to do is build your own concept

>>53840413
I'm already working on it

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>>53833666

military funding =/= very basic, routine maintenance checks

it is as simple as "Hans, vee moost make shure zee flugzeugen still werken"

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>>53833540
>We dont have any enemies around us
With the way things are going with the EU, soon you might only have enemies around you.

>>53840727
True

You lads are irritating the Poles, that's almost as bad as poking around in the Balkans

>>53840262
ebin

>>53829104
Who needs a strong military in the age of globalization, economic interdependency and post-heroism? But thanks for paying for my security, Ameribro. Keep up the good work.

>>53829422
t. Neville Chamberlain

Bets reason to vote AfD: We will get out of NATO with them.

>>53839962
>You WANT to be at the table, at every important global table

How does that relate to muh military power? If military power were the most relevant factor then Pakistan and North Korea would be at every table dictating terms left and right.

Looks like you don't understand the 21st century.

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>>53843824
>If military power were the most relevant factor then Pakistan and North Korea would be at every table dictating terms left and right.

>>53829422
B-but America did it in WWII

>>53844248
Wrong. That's a myth

>The U.S. Navy grew into a formidable force in the years prior to World War II, with battleship production being restarted in 1937, commencing with the USS North Carolina (BB-55). It was able to add to its fleets during the early years of the war while the US was still neutral, increasing production of vessels both large and small, deploying a navy of nearly 350 major combatant ships by December 1941 and having an equal number under construction.[1]

>>53842304
Oh and both German and Britain also had a military build up lasting several years prior to the war

We should we even need a good army? There is literally no threat to us right now or the near future.
The only good question is: why do we spend so fucking much money on shit that doesn't work/we don't need?

>>53844248
As did Germany. Just look at the first years of war. Hell, even the French had better weapons.

>>53833564
>Be American Child
>Go to school
>Jimmy wants to express his freedom with his dad's hand gun
>Whole class stands up and salutes as Jimmy expresses his freedom by shooting everyone in the class
>Weep while singing "Land of the Free" as I stare down Jimmy's Freedom barrel
>get shot
>"God bless America" are my last thoughts

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I wonder if i can buy this on Agora or smth

>>53844545
>As did Germany. Just look at the first years of war. Hell, even the French had better weapons.
Wrong.

The German military took years to rebuild and rearm before WW2. You are wrong, the American poster is wrong. You both believe your countries' national myths because it's a cheap way to feel good about yourself, you haven't bothered reading the actual history.

The French had better weapons in some areas because they, too, had been building up for years

>>53844778
But it's true. What did we went to France with? Hell, we even drove around in Russia with fucking 38(t)s...

>>53845092
Further to my previous post, I recommend having a read of this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_re-armament

German re-armament that violated Versailles actually started straight after WW1 on a small scale. From 1933, the Nazis were in power, and the buildup accelerated greatly. That's a whole 6 years of very fast and aggressive illegal re-armament with fascists in power, before Poland was invaded.

6 fucking years.
You claimed here >>53844545 that Germany re-armed itself within months. Are you that stupid? Or did you not read the posts you were replying to?

The extent to which you people, and I include most of the American posters in this, believe your own bullshit regarding WW2 is bloody pathetic.

after hundreds of years we can finaly invade europe

>>53834208
what for?

>>53834979
lol you're right

>>53836336
>need to realize that Germany has enemies
name them

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>>53836624
>Therefore you need the ability to conduct "the continuation of politics by other means" - war. Abroad.
best advice ever

>>53834979
>>53846250
The German Armed Forces are limited to 370,000 troops. The ENTIRE Bundeswehr today has 177,000 active personnel.

And you mongs are whining about the limit, give me a fucking break

>>53846408
You need the ability to conduct war when appropriate, not the ability to be fucking idiots

>>53837287
>to be a credible world power
If you think you can be that at the same time when states exist that have more than five times your population and economic size you're delusional

>giving a shit about military spending when USA is literally doing it for you. For free.

Man. If ever a war breaks out, world war style, we all know whom we can rely on. Being part of NATO has advantages.

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>>53846967
>If ever a war breaks out, world war style, we all know whom we can rely on

>>53846565
>you're delusional
You are historically illiterate (because history proves you completely wrong) and you lack any understanding of modern projection of military power. What country could deploy a more effective force in Africa and sustain it for a long period of time, China or Britain? Substitute Africa for anywhere that isn't China's back yard, the answer is the same.

>>53847042
>us and Canada higher percentage of should

Feels good man

>>53846967
>relying on the USA to have your back

Terrible idea. You need to brush up on your history, too.

>>53839902
They're designed for peace support ops. They cost that much because of high endurance capabilities. An investment to save money in the long term.

>>53847076
Do you understand that it is not the Victorian era anymore, and there is no need to deploy large numbers of soldiers to engage civilians and soldiers alike?

>>53847183
Explain why you think we live in a post-war world, please

>>53844516
the difference being Germany came from the restrictions of Versailles

>>53847117
I don't need to brush on my history to know the spawns of London donn't give a shit about whatever lives outside their country or isn't under the umbrella of the language of London. But USA is a nation of warmongers and they literally use war to boost their economy, and as long as they are willing to feed us the bones of what they eat, much like a dog under the table, I'm more than happy to wag my tail and lay belly up.

>>53847282
Because ROE, Geneva conventions, because post WWII experience.

Because the enemy today isn't entrenched, but fights guerrilla. Because you don't need to set up a strong logistic anymore, a carrier is more than enough to setup an HQ and setup a camp and send your occupation forces to patrol empty deserts, and ferry supplies via air.

>>53846450
>The German Armed Forces are limited to 370,000 troops. The ENTIRE Bundeswehr today has 177,000 active personnel.
The point is we're not being trusted as the 2+4 treaty proves. This reveals all calls for German reaarmament are really calls to fight for other people's interests. No, thanks.

>You need the ability to conduct war when appropriate, not the ability to be fucking idiots
Apparently we suck at war. So we better let the Americans do it for us. Spares us the coffins.

>>53838335
>No one is telling Germany to keep their military small,
Confirmed for 14 years old.

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>>53847342
The "restrictions" of Versailles were ignored by Germany almost as soon as the dust settled on the trenches

>>53847361
1946 - after Britain (an American ally) giving substantial help to the Americans to develop the nuclear bomb, on the condition that the resulting data would be shared with the UK, the Americans betrayed the UK and went back on their word, sharing nothing with any allies. This is despite the 1944 Hyde Park Agreement signed by President Roosevelt and Churchill which promised the information would be shared with the UK.

1956 - Suez Crisis. The USA works with the Soviets and uses economic threats to undermine its ally, Britain.

1982 - Falklands War. British territory is invaded. The first response by the USA is an attempt to transfer sovereignty of the islands to Argentina using diplomatic channels, only after Argentina ignores this do the Americans start helping Britain

THIS is the country you are happy to completely trust with your defence. Sounds like a great plan Mario.

>>53847734
Ayo hol up Hans, can't you see u ned2 git gud? Where is my GrossGermanis? Just 360noscope soldiarz with Panzerfaust n u win. Trust me it werkz in Call of Duty: fur die Vatherland

t britishman

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>>53836931

>>53847511
This entire post is so stupid I'm worried about catching some sort of brain cancer from it

>All these countries that rely solely on the US for defense while laughing at the US for lacking in social programs
I really want shit to hit the fan some day. I want to watch these countries be subjugated because they had no defense.

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>>53847925
I FUCKING MISS BRITISH EMPIRE. FUCKING SUCKS WE HAVE SUCK DIRTY REBEL PEASANT DICK JUST TO LIVE. FUCK WHAT HAPPENED TO BEING BASED AS FUCK AND RULING WORLD.

>>53829104
To be fair UK is the only country putting actual money on the Typhoon.

>>53848126
American soldiers will die defending our welfare programs for muslim immigrants.
How does this make you feel?

>>53847826
Cherrypicking much? Do you think that a country that invested so much time and money on a nuclear research was likely to hand it over to another because you're cute? Or because you've got the accent? Tough luck. Bring me proofs of this "substantial help". Einstein and Fermi weren't British.

Let's see. Suez crisis, let us summarise it up

>isrselians mad cuz no Sinai
>oy Nigel, help me up in here
>aye, bloody good idea mate!
>AS THE COLD WAR RAGES ON, GENIUS!
>Soviet Union supports Egypt
>haha jolly good, they dun no British empire lad, our Gurkas will punch the shit out of them nukes right lads? Lads?

Can't say shit about Falklands as I dunno about it. What's your point anyway? The Argentinians barely had the money to buy petrol for their planes, I'm surprised they weren't equipped with stones and slings. Feel betrayed much for a war that your country achieved a major victory on?

How about we bring up the fact that no other English country ever opposed you or one another? How about we bring Jo the fact that your country let Poland be annexed by Soviet Union? How about we bring up the Namibian problem? Sure the nations were controlled by UK and France, and your puppet did your bidding back then.

Shall we continue on all the betrayals of UK?

>>53846450
The simple fact that there are restrictions shows that we are not Allies to anyone but an enemy or liability.
And what were the three funding principles of NATO? "..and to keep the Germans down." was one of them I believe. Pretty harsh from an organization were were forced to join due to outside pressure and most Germans want to leave.
We wont fight your wars and luckily you gave us a pretty nice reason to keep all of our treaties while not fulfilling some of them. If NATO ever gets a real attack by Russia we will simply point at that treaty andsend a few thousand troops. Sadly we can not be allowed to send more.

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The refugees should be forced to make weapons for Germany, for free.

It's only fair.

>>53848225
>I miss British empire
>has never lived in it
>Canadians were not British, but colonials of it, meaning citizens of B class
>the whole idea of the British empire was to export resources from the colonists for cheap, work them in UK, sell them back to the colonials

Sometimes, I think people like you deserve to live in such times

>>53848431
>Cherrypicking much? Do you think that a country that invested so much time and money on a nuclear research was likely to hand it over to another because you're cute? Or because you've got the accent?
No, because the US President signed an agreement and promised to do it. Then they didn't. This betrayal is the entire reason the UK developed its own nuclear weapons independently in 1952.

I am not cherry-picking, I'm showing you how much a "close ally" of one of the world's closest alliances can be relied upon. Not much, at all.

My main point doesn't just concern the USA but trusting ANY foreign country to defend you is a terrible, terrible idea. It should only be an option for tiny countries that are unable to do properly themselves if they tried, like the Balts.

>>53848126
Germany gets bombed to ashes and loses its only asset. Its industry. Whatever the invader country, they now have 80 million people to feed while losing their biggest trading partner west of China and east of Washington.
Im sure thats intelligent.

>>53848126
But that will not happen, son. Because brave brainwashed Americans will flock to Europe to defend it once again, like their grandfathers did in WWII

>>53829104
>German Tornado jets deployed to Syria cannot fly at night due to the pilots being blinded.
The UK fixed this issue 20 years ago when they upgraded their Tornados to GR4, Italy 8 years ago.
The Luftwaffe was supposed to fix it on the cheap without industry contracts, because of budget cuts this didn't happen.

>G36 is being phased out of the military because it cannot fire straight at high temperatures.

G36 problems are just a meme, it was designed as a cheap plastic rifle for a mass army of conscripts and does its job. There's better assault rifles but a M4 wouldn't hit anything either after being put through these tests.

>Only 4 of the German militarys 39 NH90 helicopters are functional.
>The fuel tank for one of their Eurofighter jets "fell off" while preparing for takeoff.

Shit like this happens because for the last 25 years or so the Bundeswehr went through constant reforms, every government tried to make it leaner and cheaper to run.
Maintenance was kept to a bare minimum, if 20-30% hardware was available for training a unit counts as 'combat ready'.

Procurement is a mess too, there's a lot of mismanagement and collusion with industry in the Bundeswehr and because so many projects have been expensive failures it's hard to get Bundestag approval for military spending.

With all these equipment problems getting leaked to the media in the last years and a government that is slowly starting to look at Russia as a credible threat instead of a partner again this is changing though.