Which one is worse?

>>3098456
Sketch people. The finished work people may improve kinda slow but they are constantly pushing themselves to their limit since they finish their work and it'll be more beneficial in the long run. The sketch people may have better short term improvement but they'll start to stagnate since they're not pushing their skills.

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>>3098459
What's up with this 4chan meme of that you won't learn much by sketching? Being able to sketch to the level of the image attached would take a really long time to do. Acting like you'll stagnate your sketching skills after a couple months of practice is completely and utterly false. There is so much you can practice by sketching( perspective, composition, anatomy, drapery, posing, expressions, etc)

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>>3098467
(Continued) I mean would you rather have the sketching ability of the first artist or be able to turd polish like this, which is what the majority of DA is capable of after many years of practice.

>>3098473
This guy can't sketch or paint.

>>3098467
i literally sketch all the time.

>>3098491
Neither can da tier artists

most are gonna be lacking, but that doesn't have to be bad. Drawing can be a fun hobby. It's up to the pros to do it all with the right balance and max out. It's stupid to compare hobbyists to professional artists.

>>3098467
>>3098473
It really depends what you consider a sketch. The OP drawings for example have very clean and finished lineart and the design is completely solved. For all intended purpose, the top 2 drawings are finished concept designs. No one is saying you can't get good doing that. But if you think doing a rough doodle and then calling it a day and moving on to another rough doodle is enough to get good, then you are unfortunately mistaken because you never force yourself to actually solve problems.

>>3098473
The first guy every day

turd polishing isn't a skill or an ability, it's a choice

also >implying I don't make finished work, I just dump sketches here because they're throwaway and I won't ever publish them anywhere else

Finished work is the redpill. Don't be like 90% of the people here drawing 100 quick sketches and rendering biceps in hopes that one day it'll be useful for something.

>>3098542
How the hell are you able to make "finished work" if you can't even sketch properly? You first need to learn how to walk.

Like 98% of all the actual problem-solving in a piece is done DURING THE SKETCHING PHASE. Composition, perspective, proportions, lighting, it's all laid down during the sketching. The rest is just time spent grinding.

That's the whole point of making a sketch before you start on the time-consuming part, so you can solve the problems before it becomes prohibitively time-consuming to change things.

Making 100 sketches also exactly the way you improve your skills, there's like 100 times more problem-solving contained in that than in making 1 drawing and then spending 100 hours polishing it.

>>3098547
>How the hell are you able to make "finished work" if you can't even sketch properly?
Anyone who drew as a kid can "sketch". I'm sorry you fell for a perpetuated meme. It's not your fault-- that is the culture here.

>Like 98% of all the actual problem-solving in a piece is done DURING THE SKETCHING PHASE. Composition, perspective, proportions, lighting, it's all laid down during the sketching.

None of this has any relevance, I think you are confused. Anyway all you really need to look for proof are the very anons here who get nowhere because they never finish anything and do "studies".

>>3098558
I can look at myself and how I got good. It was done by making lots of studies and sketches.

>Anyone who drew as a kid can "sketch".
No they can't lmao.

>>3098560
Oh good, you actually draw and aren't a shitposter. More power to you.

>>3098547
>Like 98% of all the actual problem-solving in a piece is done DURING THE SKETCHING PHASE. Composition, perspective, proportions, lighting, it's all laid down during the sketching. The rest is just time spent grinding.

That is true, but only during the sketching phase of a piece you actually plan on finishing. If you start something already knowing it will be nothing but a throwaway sketch, you will never put in the time and effort to properly solve any problems that might arise. Why would you spend hours trying to do your absolute best figuring out the perspective, composition, design, proportions etc when you already decided it's just a sketch? You will just doodle something within your comfort zone for half an hour or so and call it a day.

>>3098579
>Why would you spend hours trying to do your absolute best figuring out the perspective, composition, design, proportions etc when you already decided it's just a sketch?

What?

Tell me what exactly you are doing when you're drawing if not the aforementioned things

>>3098542
I agree with this guy. For years I was stuck in this 'study' mindset, and it was a huge detriment. I have sketchbooks filled with nothing but headless, handless and feetless floating torso's trying to figure 'the magic technique to drawing'. Or just disjointed floating hands not taken to completion under the guise of 'I'm studying hands', and so forth.

Not every thing you do has to be a rendered painting you spent a 100 hours on, but even if you do 'rough stuff', take that rough stuff to some sort of completion. Never skimp out on drawing something, like hands or feet, with the idea of 'this is just a sketch'. The only way to get good at drawing something, is to actually draw it to the best of your ability until you get gud at it. If all you do is sketch it's very easy to just scribble away your problems instead of actually solving them.

I guess it all depends on what you actually take 'sketch' to mean, though.

>>3098653
Well it's good that you found that out.

I would have never thought of specifying all that, I do advice beginners to get a sketchbook, it just never occurred to me that someone might think of sketching as a free pass to make shitty, thoughtless work that leads to nothing and has no purpose.

>>3098542
This. Most of this forum is people spinning their wheels "grinding fundies", and the majority not feeling like they're progressing at all - which is true - grinding loomis for 10 years just makes you good at grinding loomis. Too many of the people here giving "advice" don't know how to tell people to move on to the next steps, because they've never done it themselves. Their education plan is a literal South Park meme:

1. Grind Loomis

2. ????

3. Profit.

Fundamentals are important, but art schools don't keep students grinding the 101 courses for 10 years - they get them going during the first two semesters, and teach them to take the building blocks of the fundamentals, and build bigger projects with them. The only counter to that I've ever gotten here is an autistic "post your work", which doesn't address the main point at all - that this forum creates more stagnation than it does success. They have to turn it into a personal attack, because they know I'm right.

only after 4 years of grinding fundamentals 6 hours a day do you have the right to ever finish something.

the FINAL 0.1% is the only one that actually makes it look good or finished.

>>3098672
>Grind Loomis
Well I too can agree, that's bad. I don't think ever did any "grinding" myself. I read Loomis' books ones, which was something of an epiphany to me at the time, and started applying the theory to my own work. Which I first did crappily, but learned to do it better over time.

Sketching regularly is very good, but you do it to practice things like composition and imagination as much as you do it to practice the "fundies".

>>3098604
It's a psychological thing. If you start something with the mindset that it's only going to be a sketch, it's literally impossible for you to try as hard as you could if you were planning to finish it. You're simply not going to bother to really break your head trying to figure out perspective problems or planning out a cool composition through a bunch of thumbnails,or looking up references whenever you realize you don't know how something looks. You're not going to do any of those things because it's just a sketch with no purpose.

>>3098688
>It's a psychological thing
Ah, so you didn't have a real point after all.

>>3098699
kek

>>3098672
>Too many of the people here giving "advice" don't know how to tell people to move on to the next steps, because they've never done it themselves

I think that's unfair statement and comes off as strawmanlike, it might apply to some, but really I think the biggest reason that isn't talked about as much is because it's the point where art starts becoming very subjective.

The specific steps to making final artwork depend on the medium you work in, the purpose you're making the art for, your individual taste, the audience it's meant for. etc.

I could say a thing or two about making mobile game art and UI design for example, but I can't imagine that being relevant to someone making oil paintings to be displayed in fine arts gallery or someone trying to make it in the animation industry. Each of these require a different approach, and only experts in those fields are going to be able to give rock solid advice.

Fundies are something any artist worth their salt can at least comment on, as they're more or less the same in any type of representative art.

>>3098699
Well, you keep ignoring my point, so I'm pretty sure what I'm saying hits bullseye with you.

>>3098722
What point? You just assume it's "psychological" and deterministic and some kind of universal rule of nature when it most likely only applies to yourself.

>>3098688
Leave him be, lad. Let him continue to do what he is doing.

>>3098688
Yeah, speak for yourself. Even though I only sketch, I always put all my effort into my sketches trying to make them looking as correct as possible. Sketching is not the same thing as doodling.

>>3098734
You shouldn't only sketch, though.

I don't think anyone here argues for that, that's just the bizarre strawman these muppets keep bringing up for some reason.

>>3098734
indeed, and i think sketches aught to be their own thing. personally if i do a sketch and i want to make a more finished picture i start again. i don't try to make a more finished piece on top of the sketch, but respect to people who work differently of course.

>>3098737
My workflow is to make as many sketches as I need to arrive in the one that's worth using as the basis for the final artwork.

That's the advantage of a sketch, you can bang out several of them in a short space of time exploring different possibilities and pick the best one.

>>3098713
It'snot subjective at all. When posters say they feel like they're not advancing, the stock answer is "grind fundies" - in other words, keep doing what they feel they're spinning their wheels on.

The correct answer is: move up to more complex compositions, start applying what you've learned.

It's not true in every case, but it's more common than not, that the answer to everything on here is "grind fundies". And that just makes you good at grinding fundies, not learning to apply they, and work on the new challenges that combining them presents.

>>3098741
>When posters say they feel like they're not advancing

Now you're talking about some completely different thing.

I think most of those people feel like they're not advancing is simply because they haven't been at it for long enough. As in, they think of advancement in terms of weeks when they should be thinking of a timespace of months and years, regardless of what approach they're taking to learning.

>>3098736
I SHOULD do whatever the fuck I wanna do. This is art, there are no should's and shouldn't's. If I want to draw some fucking muppets fingering each other while eating cupcakes then that's what i'm gonna fucking draw. You aren't the boss of me so go fuck yourself.

>>3098751
You're fired.

>>3098751
Calm down, Betsy.