GESTURE

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>>2941684
I have a couple points:

1.) That image you posted in your example is fucking shitty. I don't understand why people keep posting that shit. The proportions are horrendous and it's overall shape design and gesture is horrific
2.) Speaking of proportions, it's literally the most important concept in art. It's not anatomy and it's not values, it's being able to draw what you fucking see.
3.) Fundamentals aren't in a vacuum. In order to be good at gesture drawing you need to be good at anatomy/form and proportion. Gesture drawing when it comes to humans is being able to simplify the body with as few lines as possible. You CAN'T SIMPLIFY WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW. That's why your gesture sucks.

5.) Speaking of sucky gestures, how about you get better inspiration? I attached some images. Michael hampton is probably the best book for figure drawing in general.

>>2941693
Thank you.
I've been reading FORCE by mike matessi for human anatomy to better understand the human body but its still difficult for me to formulate full human bodies that look interesting, which is why I think gesture is my issue. hampton has a lot of reading and technical stuff but I've heard now 4 people say its the best, so I guess I'll have to start it sooner or later

>>2941706
force is a very good book, good choice

>>2941693
Yo, random westaboo, I'm really happy for you, I'ma let you finish, but chinaman's drawing in the OP has much better gestural legs&feet than any in your pic.

>>2941722
westaboo? Are you too retarded to differentiate anime from disney styles? The guy who made those drawings is Glen Keane. One of the best american animators of all time you cunt.

>>2941724
You're probably confusing westaboo with weeaboo. He called you a westaboo precisely because Keane is american.

>>2941693
> OP image is shit because proportions are "horrendous", bad shape design, and "horrific" gesture.

Sorry, what? The only misjudged proportions I'm seeing is the head scale to body scale ratio. Still, more head lengths in the body is generally an artistic way of beautifying the model, or making it seem like a more significant figure.

The shape design is bad? How? It looks like it's inspired by Mucha, and Much has pretty good shape design. In general, the gesture and design looks very old master-esque.
And finally, what's wrong with the gesture? Not exaggerated enough? The old masters focused on subtlety and natural, or expressive gesture. Not high contrast, dynamic noodle appendages for maximum visual torque.

If I've misrepresented your argument, please feel free to elaborate further, but to be honest, I think you're full of shit.

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oh shiiiit sounds like a gesture battle is about to go down

>>2941840
although much of what you said was inane bullshit you are correct in that she's classically proportioned, seems like people 'round here haven't been doing their villppu.

>>2941880
i would draw a version of her too, but i'm like in a transitional period so like it'd be like a neither here nor there kinda drawing, you know, so like i'll give this one a miss...maybe if you made a thread just for this instead of as part of this other thread idk..

>>2941880
GESTURE BATTLE! GESTURE BATTLE!
GESTUUUURE BATTLE!

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>>2941684
Gesture is a meme convert to construction
its the true way

>>2941944
If you think gesture isn't essential for construction I feel bad for you

>>2941880
damn
anon really nailed it this time
saved for future reference

>>2941947
post your work :^)

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>>2941684
I always had trouble with that definition of gesture because to me it has more to do with shape language than with body language. So far the books that helped me the most were those by Walt Stanchfield, an animator at disney. He insists a lot more on acting rather than making a good looking and fluid drawing like Hampton or Vilppu do. Usually he takes some very crude sketches from his students and makes adjustments (which are often even more crude) to emphasize aspects of the action. In the end if you want to see good gestures you might want to look into animation as well rather than just academic figure drawing.

>>2941880

Not sure if that was the intention but not a gesture drawing.

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>>2942020

>>2942045

It has gestural qualities but it's more of a block in rather than a pure gesture. It focuses too much on the true silhouette.

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>>2942049

>>2941889
Why is what I said inane bullshit? Are you going to make an actual case, or are you just going to make declarative statements without reasoning out your points?

For me, gesture is just Gravity applied to the drawing method.

Good topic OP.

The anon from >>2941693 has the right idea I think.

Regarding construction vs. gesture, Bridgman's books are construction based but even his blocky simplifications have a lot of gesture that can be only derived from knowing what are the "significant" (most visually apparent, appealing, i suppose) landmarks of the body. So anatomy study is a must. Don't try to cram too much, focus on big features, memorize a few, and look for them in the model. See if you can find a way to gracefully represent them.

Ateliers tend to swing the pendulum of how much time you have on a gesture. Sometimes you get 30 seconds, other times you get 30 minutes. The 30 second ones are supposed to get you to relax and not worry too much about being right, the longer ones of course to train your accuracy because you want to get the gesture into something that is lit and as accurate to the model as it can be.

>they turn out very sloppy and can't read well

* Leave lines out that you don't need, focus on big clean, simplified lines that can later on be broken into more detailed ones. Hampton talks about "types of lines". It's a very common thing all around. Women in particular are "S" and "C" curves one after another.

* Get the overlap right. This is something that is even harder if any of the body parts like a hand, knee or foot are facing directly towards you. Thinking in terms of volume/semi-construction here helps a lot.

>>2942136
no because i agree with you in spirit there's no point me going into it lol

>>2942652
definitely not (referring to file name), because you fucked up the pose, so it's like the opposite of a gesture, a 'standstill' maybe

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hows this

>>2941684

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGXpkCbyS4E

THIS is gesture.

>>2942822
yeah it's a surprising pose eh. gave me a lot more appreciation for the original lol

>>2941880
far better than the original

>>2944205
kek, you are never going to make it. You are literally blind to taste and skill.

>>2942751
Either you disagree with me or you don't. You told me that my points were asinine, but you have yet to explain why, which makes me wonder if you have any idea what you think you're talking about.

>>2944211

I'm the other guy, but what anonse have drawn is dat more aesthetic than shit in OP. At the bottom line, her nieco doesn't looks like she has hyperthyroidism.

>>2944221

Fucking autocorrect. Obviously there are issues with her neck.

>>2944211
>shitposter goes full retard

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>>2941684
you have 30 seconds to make a gesture drawing of pic related
GOGOGOGOGOGO

>>2944250
Why? so /ic/ can bicker over whether it's a gesture or not?

>>2941880
>>2942045
>>2942067
>>2942652
>>2942769
>>2942822
jesus these are all shit, you all just copied the drawing instead of fixing it.

This is the reason why you draw from life, and why drawing from other drawings is usually called "master studies".

>>2941684
And to the OP, gesture drawings are to be done quickly so you don't hesitate or second guess yourself. Focus on making decisive lines with varied weight and movement. You're simplifying the movement of the figure. Protip: Start with a slight S curve kind of shape for the spine that clearly identifies the line of action for the entire pose and slowly work your way down.

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>>2944250
this is how i do gestures
come at me

>>2944272
this is shit too

>>2944281
nah its not

>>2942008
Absolutely this. Drawn to Life is essential reading for anyone whose goal is to draw characters for storytelling. Even if it wasn't his intention, Walt Stanchfield nails what gesture is.

>>2944290
WHAT IF

There was a norm of actually posting your work when challenged?

I've been drawing seriously for over 7 years, and I still struggle with proportion. Mostly because I admittedly draw slowly and am quick to lose interest in a figure if I can't nail the entire figure in a few strokes.

>>2944391
huh?

>>2944270
>>2944281

If it's so shit, why don't you enlight us with your autism knowledge and give us a example of how a gesture figure is like?

Please don't take this as a "post your work", just demonstrate why you're right.

>>2944270
>>2944281
Toxicity like that is why I love this board.

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>>2944556
k here's a quick drawing I did. I started in blue but tried to show important lines in black, with the S curve in red. The drawings posted so far were just squiggles where the curves don't interact and build with each other, or they just draw an outline.

>>2944290
>>2942008
This, a gesture is just a tool, depending on the pose I might start with an outline, but gestures are the best tool to fight against stiff, lifeless, and boring drawings.

>>2945486
not gesture. all you did was illustrate the contours, genius.

>>2944272
Isn't this what it essentially boils down to when doing gesture? The quickest sketches end up looking like thise, but if you want to spend some more time on perfecting gesture (when you plan on actually using it to construct a pose) you add the gestures of the contours (like the 'shape' of the calves, etc.) and it becomes something like >>2942067

>>2944454
Here's a suggestion, if a particular method isn't producing good results, try something else. If it doesn't work, drop it.

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>>2944250
took more than 30 secs but alas

>>2944272
Isn't this how most people do it when they have little time and don't usually draw all that fast?

>>2944272
You straightened it and the pose could be clearer but otherwise it's alright.

>>2946508
Pretty good, making the hand gesture more precise would have helped to tell the story. It also looks like she is hiding her eyes with her arm which is a different interpretation of what she's actually doing but it works.

>>2945512
retard detected

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>>2944250
I really love gesture but I know I need to work on it more.

I have yet to encounter a really good detailed description of what a gesture actually is. You can find discussions about what it's for and why it's important and how it matters and about a dozen synonyms but I've yet to really encounter a straight black-and-white definition

Like it's about "motion" and "flow", but it also applies to static objects so I'm not sure how the fuck that works. Its form doesn't seem to matter, it can be done in lines or wash or any kind of thing. It's not the contour or the form, but it may overlap the contour or the form.

I'm starting to doubt there even IS a proper definition of gesture. I think people just do simplified drafts of their subject with a general eye towards composition and then they vomit a load of philosophical garbage about the fucking ~feel~ of the thing because that's the only explanation I have that's consistent with everything I've seen and heard regarding gesture

>>2941880
You made her skinnier then in the original.
Check your privileges SHITLORD!

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>>2947838
Yeah I struggle with this shit big time. Half the attempts in this thread are my fumblings. Never really paid any attention to gesture but I tend to be really stiff so I should probably start. It's always seemed like some obscure dark art. Like composition.

>>2947838
Just a bunch of simplified, abstract lines of the figure you're drawing. Really just a fucking sketch, you can do it however you like, it should just be fast (<5 minutes) and simplify the pose of your subject. Hampton teaches you to draw a head (just a round shape), then an S-shape spine, then a ribcage (egg shape), and then the pelvis (oval shape), then a bunch of sticks or loose contour lines for the rest.

>>2941684
lmao what a bunch of NERDS
its all about the end product you negros
nobodoy cares about your scribbles
Now get back to work or you wont make it!

>>2947838
>I'm starting to doubt there even IS a proper definition of gesture

There isn't. People just got meme'd by Vilppu way too hard. A lot of artists don't bother with 'muh gesture' at all.

>>2948935
Gesture is taught so you start out extreme in its principles in order to teach you to feel the subtlety of a pose.

Because whether people realize it or not, before gesture, we tend to stick-figure our poses and it looks fake. Hence, gesture. Doesn't mean a finished, fully rendered body needs to have spaghetti limbs, just a bit of natural flow.

>>2947838
The definition I found on google seems good enough to me.

a movement or position of the hand, arm, body, head, or face that is expressive of an idea, opinion, emotion, etc.:

Therefore a gesture drawing is a drawing that expresses the emotion/idea behing the pose.

Of course there is a lot more to write about it because there are a ton of variables to take into account in order to make a good gesture drawing. Rhythm, silhouette, angles, body mechanics, anticipation, squash and stretch, appeal, drag and follow through, arcs, exaggeration, forces, and so on. Which is why there are quite a few books that focus on the matter.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

>>2941684
bump

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>>2944250

>>2953988
Cute

GODDAMMIT WHY IS DRAWING SO HARD!?

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>>2944250

bamp

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>>2941880
Imo OP's is much more lifelike so I wouldn't say yours is overall better than the original but in a bunch of ways it totally is. Ntm how hard it is for a copy of a good piece to beat the original so definitely solid work anon!

>>2944270
>jesus these are all shit, you all just copied the drawing instead of fixing it.
you're a fucking idiot

>>2942652
i really like this one. haters might quite literally be autistic

>>2941693
these are nice. is this just a result of tons of practice? I like them a lot I feel like I'm great at proportions but I go retarded on things like making the head too big or really weird angles. is it best to start with a wireframe? I feel like that makes it easier but I lose some of the fluidity. I don't want to just be building muscles on top of a skeleton from memory.

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This whole thread has taught me that some of /ic/ think that gesture means a fully composed figure, some think that gesture means a fully composed figure with good gesture, and that some think that gesture is a rapid sketch of curves to capture the motion and weight of a figure.

Which one is it?

>>2956604
Gesture drawing is a tool plain and simple. It's practice not a style of artwork that has to be completed.

construction > gesture

neither should be ignored
construction is more fundamental but gesture is the key to preventing stiff and lifeless figures

>>2956604
It's one of the most broad art terms around. The whole idea of gestures is very modern too and really only existed for around 100 years, and a lot of the ideas surrounding gesture and their entire popularity can be traced back to Nicolaides' book which was pretty experimental and also posthumously put together. Many people treat gestures as "warmups", though I don't personally agree with them being sidelined like that.

Anyone who claims to have a definitive answer on how it is done will be speaking out of ignorance.

Generally though all that can be said of a gesture is it is a relatively quick drawing that focuses more on the action of the pose than anything else. That's a very broad way of stating it though and includes everything from 5 second scribbles of a pose to 5 minute more careful drawings that start the get into anatomy.

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>>2956660
I think gestures are overrated by western teachers. Stiff well constructed figures already can gives you money and good mood.
Epic gestures with shit construction gives you nothing except suffering.

>>2956700
those are just busy messy sketches. I don't see any fantastic gesture there if that's what you're implying.

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>>2956740
>if that's what you're implying.
Nah, just some random artist sketches for attention.

>>2956743
I'm guessing these are for animation?

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>>2941944
>>2941947

>>2956771
kek.

>>2956604
What my art teacher told me, and what stuck to me, was that gesture is the opposite of contour. When gesture drawing, you're drawing internal movement of forms, rather than the outline of forms themselves: imagine you're sketching the vectors of the object's movement rather than its forms.
They should generally be really fast, and once you start working in surface detail, it's usually not considered a gesture anymore (but some people just seem to think a gesture is any quick figure drawing) but anyway, thinking of it like that really helped my figure drawing. Hope that helped

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>>2944250