Is construction the ultimate meme?

>>2939551
Construction and perspective grids are tools to make drawing easier for you. I'm not sure why this is so hard for idiots like you to understand. If you don't use construction and you are happy with the end results, then yeah, do whatever the fuck you want, literally no one gives a shit how you draw so stop shitting up this board with this bullshit.

>>2939558
/thread

>>2939551
stop saying meme all the time faggot

>>2939551
>Kim Jung Gi

Almost all of Kim Jung Gi's teaching material on youtube focuses on construction. His method of drawing would not be possible without heavy foundations in construction.

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>>2939551
>Cambiaso, 500 years ago

>>2939551
>for figure drawings, it seems like it just stiffens your figures and hampers creativity
it also helps you guarantee you'll get the proportions right so you don't accidentally end up with weird limbs or short torsos.

masters have done it so many times they can cheat sometimes, that doesn't mean noobs get to skip it retard.

>>2939551
They don't use it because they've drawn enough to be able to work without it.

Like so many things, it's a tool to make your work easier, and eventually you may be able to draw well without it.

That said: "Is X a meme?" Go fuck yourself.

>>2939625
>They don't use it because they've drawn enough to be able to work without it.
Exactly this. Do you still using training wheels when you ride your bike? No, that's silly. You haven't needed those for years. It's the same thing with construction.

>>2939673

My mom held on to me and pushed me to steer on my own, falling many times, before I could ride. Training wheels are for pussies.

>>2939674
cool man. dope. I got hit by a gokart when I was learning to ride my bike and have been bike riding ever since.

>>2939674
That's actually really impressive. Good on you and props to your mom. Bad example on my part I suppose. I was trying to say that you should use construction when you're starting out, but you certainly don't need to keep using them once you know what you're doing.

Lmao, they won't film themselves using construction lines. Doesn't mean they don't use it sometimes. These videos are meant to impress, keep that in mind. Same thing with portfolio. It's a tool. Use it for stuff you're not used to yet.

>>2939551
>her

are traps the thinking man's fetish?

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Pretty much every artist that is crazy good at figure drawing and manipulating figures in perspective uses or has used extensive construction.

There's a lot of people that get by drawing by sight and shit, but they're rarely the people doing crazy foreshortened perspective heavy figure drawings from imagination.

>>2939583
Cambiaso is a unique draftsman who used construction that is kind of like how we use today, but over all as an artist he was very mediocre for his time.

>>2939551
god, did you just call the concept of draftsmanship a meme? oh boy

>>2939946
nigga, what the fuck are you on about? Cambiaso was mediocre? I've never asked someone to post their work but you must be a real big dick johnson artist to call Luca mediocre. Get the fuck outta here.

>>2939993
No one here even knows what draftsmanship is.

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I've been seeing this topic more and more lately on /ic/ and I have no idea what the fuck you guys are talking about

>>2939551
Art is a meme

>>2939551
Are you literally retarded?
All great artists use construction, theyve just gotten so good that they dont need to map out every single thing they draw since they see it in the mind's eye.

>>2939993
You conveniently left out the part where I said he's mediocre "for his time," which is true considering there were Barrocci who was definitely a greater painter than Cambiaso; Federico Zuccaro who at least drew much better than Cambiaso; and Giulio Procaccini who normally created better works. Though the earlier painters of their century were still better.

If I was a bad painter, I wouldn't show my work because you'd disregard my point. If i was a great painter, I wouldn't show my work on here.

>>2940079
i don't think being only the 5th best painter in the world makes you mediocre dude

>>2940079
Oh i know what you meant, and i think its complete dogshit regardless. Oh, you think two guys are better(i disagree) so he's mediocre for his time? That's a dumbass thing to say.

>>2939551
Construction is a crutch for artists who are unable to create dynamic 3D figures through line alone.

>>2940159
this

>>2940159
>>2940165
This is disgusting. You guys should be taken out back and shot old-yeller style like the animals that you are.

>>2940079
I haven't rolled my eyes this hard at a post in a long time

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>>2939551
>masters from the previous centuries didn't use construction, they didn't know about perspective grids and all that heavy stuff, they just drew from real life and kept things in memory

wew lad

>>2940079
>this F1 driver keeps finishing 3rd or 4th every race, what a mediocre driver!

construction is something that every good artist uses, but the really good artists have internalized it to such a degree that it looks like they're just winging everything and somehow coming up with awesome art anyway.

anyone who thinks maybe they don't need construction is just proving that they really, really need construction.

>>2940185
They didn't use the perspective grids for anything that wasn't architecture. No one did that retarded box method to build human figures. They felt out simple rounded forms from gestures and built those up, they were much more concerned with making poses work for the composition than they were with getting foreshortening precise.

>>2939551
Construction is like perspective grids. You do it to force yourself to be precise when you don't yet have the feel for it, then you stop using construction when the practice of constructing forms has been ingrained in you and you can do it in your mind. Doesn't mean you should skip it, it's a tool for improving your fundamentals, not a fundamental in and of itself.

>>2940189
Exactly. I'd like to see these posters spend 2 hours on say a head that they've made using meticulous construction vs one made freehand with "no construction" chances are both will look like garbage because they're fucking noobies that are shitposting about things that are way out of their grasp anyway. Do it noobs. I dare you. Maybe you'll grow as an artist instead of a shitposter on an art board

>>2940208
What the fuck are you on about? OP asked a question and people replied.

OP was dead wrong in this case, old masters used literally every trick available to them. We live in a time where observation drawing isn't nearly as useful as back before cameras so there's a new focus on imaginative drawing that requires some draftsmanship skills. calling a "meme" was dumb and people said as much.

>>2940246
>We live in a time where observation drawing isn't nearly as useful as back before cameras so there's a new focus on imaginative drawing

Uh no, that's not it, at all.

>>2940095
>>2940084
Just because those are the ones listed doesn't mean those are the only ones better. There are many virtually forgotten painters of that time who are about the same level as Cambiaso, and some worse of course, and some better. The latter half of 16h century isn't something that is published very well. The only thing is that Cambiaso has a strange style that's most easily attributed to him. There are also many better painters who were born about 20 years earlier or so who were still active around most of Cambiaso's career. Even Vasari who is considered a mediocre painter of his time shows himself to be more capable than Cambiaso.

Many of the people referencing Cambiaso haven't even seen his paintings, mostly his drawings, much less other painters of the time.

Just look at this travesty
http://images.arcadja.com/cambiaso_luca-madonna_col_bambino_e_san_giovannino%7eOM42a300%7e10050_20120529_131_25.jpg

>>2940291
lol, just be wrong and move on. you don't even need to admit it, just don't post more about it. latter half of the 16th century isn't published very well indeed, :P

>>2939558
Oh fuck off you bitter no-shower.

>>2939551
Purposely not learning things that will make you improve doesn't make you better, it makes you a retard.

This thread is a solid recipe for how to troll /ic/

Well done op, you've perfected it.

".. but, but, muh kim jung gi uses construction when teaching"

You dumb fucks seem incapable of grasping the difference between teaching and actually making something. He's showing the basic level of understanding it takes to achieve what he does. As in, if you can't even draw boxes in perspective, then you can't expect to do anything more interesting.

Of course he doesn't use construction in his actual work that he cares about, construction is for students and any professional knows that it ruins the life and flow of a drawing. Quality art takes a subtle fluidity in graphic forms and flows.

If you stopped fagging around on message boards and spent time grinding at art, then you would be able to draw every plane of a human face from your brain proceduraly without needing to even think about confirming to any construction bullshit.

But good luck becoming pro as someone that can't even draw good shit without construction. Maybe you'll be able achieve Scott Robertson or Feng Zhu tier art, where everyone respects your draftsmanship and teaching skills despite being bored as fuck by your stiff and mediocre designs.

>>2940079
You're missing the point, if he was mediocre, he'd get lost in the history among thousands of others.

I remember getting meme'd by /ic/ into thinking life drawing is the only way to git gud. Then I got to know that construction exists, went through drawabox and dynamic sketching and improved in 2 months more than I had in the previous 3 years.
How can it be a meme if it works?

>>2940394
Post your work. You seem to have it all figured out :')

>>2939583
>le ancient boxes man that people only know because of Vilppu

Literally the only one that did this shit back in the day, and coincidentally he's also a trash tier artist.

Really makes me think.

>>2940394
>construction is for students and any professional knows that it ruins the life and flow of a drawing.

You seem really confused. It's usually the other way around, non-constructed images tend to be awkward and stiff as fuck because they lack a proper gesture basis. Gesture is pretty much the first part of any figure construction. If your drawings end up looking stiff and lifeless, you suck at gesture and your non-constructed work looks most likely way worse.

>>2940473
That's because 99% of work from those days is just copying references. No need for construction when you have a model in front of your camera obscura.

>>2940394
Bridgman disagrees with your amateur outlook on structure and gesture being oil and water to eachother.

to anyone who thinks muh construction is bad:

1. don't fucking use it
2. shut the fuck up

if you think it makes you a better artist, good for you. here's the reality of the situation though: you're still going to be mediocre, and then you'll quit. congratulations on wasting time on yet another thread over a pointless debate which will have zero impact on your art in twenty years. you'll have long stopped making art by then, let's be honest.

>>2940481
Gesture is just sketching, a bunch of lines to make an abstract figure. Everyone knows sketching is fine. Construction is placing boxes, spheres, cylinders in perspective, it's what comes after the gesture. It stiffens your gesture, this is a fact.

>>2940189
Can you elaborate on this? I am able to rotate boxes and cylinders easily in my head, I can imagine them on the paper. I assume masters like KJG are the same. Do I even need construction at this point? My mind's eye can produce very vivid images.

>>2939551
Use construction for learning purposes, stupid.

>>2940394

Actually this, I can't believe the amount of people that go

>t-they did do much construction they internalized it!

while it's completely untrue. Steve Huston even if he teaches about structure to the students, he emphasizes that it's all about gesture, edges and fluid, beautiful shapes transitions. He also says all perspective you will do for figures can be eyeballed with the use of your own pencil/stick in your hand.

Sinix never did construction which is apparent from his early sketchbooks he has showed.

KJG never does construction himself, even in the earliest stuff he has showed and through dozens of sketchbooks and other stuff.

>>2940394
>and any professional knows that it ruins the life and flow of a drawing.
except when it doesn't
case closed

its very simple people who don't use construction won't make it, people who do will,so keep going construction bros we are all gonna make it

>>2940555
Sketching in perspective is a form of construction. It gives you guidelines for the final drawing. You sound like you don't understand perspective and that's why you have such an aversion towards anything related to it.

>>2940588
Gestures don't fall under construction. They're just a bunch of loose flowy lines that vaguely resemble a figure, their purpose isn't to provide a rigid framework for your figure like cylinders and boxes

>>2940595
one can focus on different things when drawing the same subject

just because you do flowy lines when you have somebody posing for you, that doesn't mean other artists can not focus on other things, like posture, proportions, perspective, anatomy, foreshortening, shadows, angles, etc etc

>>2939551
oh please, will you kill yourself already?

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>>2940630
Construction isn't about rigid frameworks either, it's just to help you put complex shapes into perspective more easily by simplifying them. Also, most people combine gesture and with at least some form of construction, at the very least wrapping lines to show volume.

>>2939551
I can tell you're never gonna make it.
Construction is a foundation to prevent your image from failing and to sanity check it when it does. If you can't build on top of it then that's just your own shortcoming.

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>>2940637
Most talented artists don't do all this fucking construction crap, they just fucking draw. When you do construction you end up with stiff shit like pic related. If you have any ounce of talent, you'll be able to get gud without all this new age bullshit.

>>2940650

98% of the youtube artists either
-stick to simple pictures they can comfort zone on livestream
-did the underdrawing before hitting record
-already practiced the pose in warmup
-already studied the complexities before hitting record
-have the breakdown of construction on another screen they did beforehand
-just really good at sight drawing from ref

Those who do show the full process clearly show the rough/construction.

>>2940650
>new age
Jesus christ could you be any more of a fucking pleb that doesnt want to practice?

>>2939551

I learned to draw using loomis, bridgeman, and vilppu and adapted those methods to my own form of construction.
Now I no longer use construction or draw out perspective grids unless I want to check for perfect accuracy.
Years of practice and working with these methods and studying anatomy on my own has made all the 'construction' automatic in my head as i now have decent understanding of forms. Doesn't mean I didn't learn it and grind it for years initially or never think about it.

>inb4 post work
I don't care if you don't believe me, this should be common sense and all you'll do is fuck over yourself.


Disregarding basic fundamentals just because you *think* certain artists don't use them or keep them in mind is a bad idea.

>>2940650
>new age bullshit

You are legitimately retarded or baiting.

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>>2939551
>masters from the previous centuries didn't use construction, they didn't know about perspective grids

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>>2939551

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>>2939551

The only reason those guys don't use construction, is because they've used so much it's all internalized now. Your question is like asking if training wheels are a meme, well if you've never rode a bike before, they are definitely not.

>>2940666
>>2940674
He's right though, validity of the method aside, proper documentation of construction has only been happening since the early 20th century.

Apart from fringe cases like Cambiaso, and like 2 Durer sketches involving geometry there's hardly any documented cases of artists using construction. (Apart from perspective stuff).

>>2940679
>>2940680


HHAHAHAHAHAH

You can't be serious? You call that master work? I've seen artists on the draw thread that can draw better than that

>>2940711
why did you type out laughter? this isnt reddit

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>>2940417
>dynamic sketching
>700 dollars
Not sure if shill

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>>2940555
>>2940394
Of course construction stiffens up the drawing, that's why you're supposed to exaggerate the gesture. Did no one tell you that?
Does pic related seem stiff to you?

Just admit you can't draw boxes in perspective, it's okay anon, we won't be mad at you.

>>2940757
Torrents are a thing.

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>>2940659
>youtube artists

>>2939551
>im so retard that i care about how people make their drawings and shit about the thecniques

Thas what i read

>>2940797
pros who stream/record themselves drawing

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>>2940807
>PROS on YouTube

>>2940816
>implying proko isnt a pro
>implying james gurney isnt a pro
>implying richard friend isnt a pro

Idiots always assume that theyre right because they assume everyone else is as ignorant as they are.

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Is this thread the ultimate meme?

>>2940921

No, your life is.

>>2939999
fecking checked
also well said

>>2939674

The analogy still works.
You can brute force past construction if you're stubborn, but it'll be painful sometimes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii0c12Hcq1Q

This guy is pretty interesting. He doesn't use the full Loomis head style construction but you can still see that the first lines he puts down indicates some form of perspective and a base for him to draw on. He's using construction in a very loose sense.

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>>2939551
>Kim Jung Gi, Ruan Jia, Sinix and many others don't use construction
who said they did't? you?
go look at their old work where it was obviously relevant to use construction. dont fucking compare them to you just because you dont understand construction faggot.

Yes Goyim, construction is absolutely necessary even though nobody pre-20th century used it. Buy my Analytical Figure Drawing DVD for only 49.99$!

>>2943363
you can learn construction in the free pdf's offered in the sticky or share threads or even on youtube. no bump because the topics been covered to death itt

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>>2939551
Depends on how you want to define construction. Classical anatomy is very structural. You can see in William Blake's figures that components of the body are stack in a manner that does seem to imply that construction techniques were used. Think in terms of Bridgman's masses.

Just because Kim Jung Gi and Ruan Gia don't draw the individual cubes and cylinders doesn't mean that they aren't structurally massing together anatomical components.

>>2943363

IMO the construction methods we see today are a amalgation of the sketching techniques found across various modern fields of commercial art; animation, comic book art, illustration and industrial design. The idea that there has been no advances in art is preposterous.

>>2939551
They do the construction in their heads you dumb nigger

>>2939551
All those artists began practicing THROUGH construction. Now they're so used to it they don't need it.

>>2943764
Nice information you just pulled out of your ass, my man.

Sinix explicitly states that he doesn't like construction, and never used it.

>>2944232
Sinix is a liar

>>2944232

And as a result he can't draw symmetrical faces in perspective.

>>2944232
Sinix art also isn't great so I'm not sure what the take away from this is supposed to be.

>>2944330
I'd very much agree with that, but lets keep things factual here.