has anyone here just straight up tried learning on their own

>>2855105
I do, but it's also much faster to steal other people's processes, so I do that too. But don't listen to /ic/'s bullshit about hours put in, construction shit, and other loads of bullshit.

>>2855105
Do you just sit down and learn calc without books? Art isnt nearly as complex and most of it is milage, but without pre written knowledge youre just wasting your time figuring out something some one else already written down.

>>2855105
Fuck you.

>>2855117
I know what you're saying - I'm just more of a hands on kind of person I guess and I don't wanna be all about figure drawing.

>>2855105
>without watching tutorials / reading anything?

If you just want to do art as a hobby then do whatever you want, if you're serious about improving then this is the absolute dead worst idea you could come up with because all of these tutorials all this wealth of knowledge came from hundreds of years worth of people trying things themselves and learning from others and building up these techniques over time. You are basically hoping to naturally discover all of this on your own. Even you must understand the folly of this approach.

I htad the luck to have a teacher who was my friend , not just a techer ,but a friend , wich is more important than just a teacher who takes the piss of your work

>>2855569
also , most of the teachers just take the piss of you work and try to make you feel inferior to them as a human , trust me , art is full of these ego-driven faggots

>>2855117
>art
>not as complex as calculus
I'm a math and physics double major, have taken grad courses in both subjects, and this couldn't be more wrong.

>>2855190
You are a fucking retard

>>2855105
>All I see when I come to /ic/ is people worshiping the same 3 zipperheads and I'm not interested in becoming what they are.

What the fuck are you even talking about? People recommending noobs like you a bunch of established teachers who have written books about the fundamentals doesn't equate to /ic/ "worshipping" them and no one says you are supposed to become like them either.

>op wants to reinvent the wheel
Not saying you're a retard, retard, but you seem retarded.

>>2855581
This, actually

>>2855117
even looking through his shitpost i think the point he's getting at is that you shouldn't have to follow some A-Z rigid process. if you had to learn calc, would you go through the entire textbook from the first page to the last or would you just skip to the section with the relevant info for what you are trying to teach yourself?

way too many tutorials and books sell themselves as "you have to do perspective, then anatomy, then rendering, then color theory" when for many people (usually ones with good ability to assess their own skill levels) it's going to work out just fine if they focus on the areas they have trouble with as they come up

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>>2855105
I guess most people that we cal "talented", that have been actively drawing since they were like 4 or 5 did it this way.

>>2855105
/ic/ is for memes you dumbass don't believe anything you read here including the stickies

>>2855105
The tutorials back then were master copies/studies.

>>2855105
I started working as a masseuse and immediately became better at drawing people.
Books are for fags, go find reality.

>>2855698

Are you unironically unaware of that art schools aren't a new thing?

>>2855105
I did exactly what you said, copied hundreds and hundreds of faces I found floating around the web, thinking that by doing things on my own I could find something new and unique.
I didn't realize I was spending 2 fucking years trying to reinvent the wheel.

After a week with fucking Fun with a pencil I learned ten times more than by drawing a thousand tiny portraits (no joke, I was kinda autistic).
Don't do the same mistake I did, even when you have /ic/ with the sticky and the artbook thread and Vilppu and Proko and all this shit - if you still do the same mistake, you're a fucking retard.

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since the begining of human existance we have been inspiring our selves with all that sorrounds us, nature and all that is contained in it, we use this elements to make new ones... so if someone wants to create something from scratch its simply imposible because everything allready exists and all things create themselves.

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I consider myself self-taught.

I'd always set the bar too high and never finished anything, so I found myself drawing the same things over and over. Progress is slow.

>>2855771
It's not the matter, it's the relationship that we create.
Just by drawing two lines next to each other, you are creating a relationship that no one has ever done before in this particular way.

>>2855726
Dumbass, all they did in those classes was copy the masters and draw from life. Literally nothing else.

>>2855612
I was talking about Sakimichan, Feng Zu and Kim Jong Gook or whatever. I know they're good but I don't see the appeal. And yes I would say the "you're just jealous" kinds of posters that come out of the woodwork in response to criticism of them are fanatic zealots at least.

>>2855622
Thanks - this is more or less what I'm saying. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel as someone said so much as I don't want to waste time with stuff I already have somewhat of a grasp on.

>almost everyone else
And yes I know I sound retarded. I get that a lot lol.

>>2855802

Wrong. Depending on the academy they were taught a wide range of subjects such as perspective, anatomy, color theory, ornamentation and so on. You tried to make it sound like they didn't have detailed art instruction "back in the day" as if it's somehow a new phenomenom. Nigger where do you think all the fundamental knowledge of realist painting and drawing comes from? Nope, it's not the deviantart tutorial section or even Loomis. In the context of OP stating that "lol master studies is what tutorials were back in the day" is patently false.

>>2855793
relationships between elements, forms, colors, components, already existed, we just discover new meanings

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>>2855190
>This sentence
you think art isn't hands on when you're studying tutorials?

>>2855809
>Kim Jong Gook
Now you just look salty that you can't draw and he can

>>2855105
I tried to do the whole 'pick it up yourself' thing, but honestly found that even just a little bit of study goes a really long way.

I picked up Betty Edwards' book and within a couple of weeks I was producing more realistic stuff than I ever had before.

The thing about reading books and doing tutorials and all that jazz is that it doesnt just teach you 'technique and tool,' it teaches you (at least the good stuff) how to percieve differently and translate that into your work.

>>2855809
. . . /ic/ hates Sakimichan and Feng Zhu.

Bread&butter /ic/ gods are Ruan Jia, Craig Mullins, and Jaime Jones, if you limit the choice to 3.

>>2855834
lol it's one of those faggots I was talking about.

>>2855105
yeah I'd been learning completely passively/on my own for a very long time and yes progress is very slow but on the other hand everything you've learned to draw is completely from imagination so when you add to that use of reference tutorials etc you kind of get a mega boost to what you're able to do and you dont have that problem of not being able to draw anything but studies

We stand on the shoulders of giants or however that quote goes.

Now kindly fuck off.

>>2855105
Yeah I've tried. No I couldn't do it without the bullshit we tell ourselves. That's why I'm on this board right now, to look around and see what advice people have on cutting the bullshit and getting to the work grind.

I believe it just comes down to honing fundamentals. From learning to draw what you see, to values, to 3D forms, to perspective, then applying all of that to either figure drawing or landscape drawing along with composition. There is a process to drawing and these fundamentals are essentially what drawing breaks down to. So I would think that just learning those in that order will give you the skill-set to be able to actually draw anything.

That seems like a solid game plan to me. But I grit my teeth just trying to do basic 3d forms.

The difference I see with successful self-taught people and those who are stuck, is that those who are stuck do not have a plan. They just try to draw whatever they want. That is not the same as studying, practicing, learning tried and true techniques. It's like learning anything else. There is a process that you have to master first.

>>2855105
Honestly, the thing that's worked best for me is just winging it like you said. When I ran into a problem I'd try to figure it out, if I couldn't I'd hit the books, and if hitting the books didn't work I'd have one of my art friends that I admired give me critique.

Besides the fundamentals (which you'll likely already intuitively have absorbed on some level if you're 'talented') it's not really worth agonizing over getting everything perfect. What's more important is understanding why you're doing something. Are you stylizing just to stylize, or are you stylizing because it makes sense in the context of what you're trying to convey

understanding aesthetic and symbolic grammar is more important than perspective etc imo especially nowadays where sheer representation is old hat

also a lot of drawing if you're first starting out is making sure you're having fun with it. You'll have a LOT more motivation and drive to do something if you don't hate it which is where most people burn out ultimately. Technical exercises are super good but unless if you're balancing out that misery with something fun even if it's just drawing pictures you like then your career or hobby or whatever is going to suck. Drawing should be something you can always come back to, good day, bad day, whatever. It's a source of energy. Wife's dead? Make some art, feel better. The more you have to force yourself the more inertia is gonna drag you down.

>>2857859
Also and I think this is the last dumb bullshit paragraph I'll write about this because who gives a shit what anyone says on a board about korean soup recipes is that really the best thing you can do is be able to break down what you like and dislike and why in concrete terms. I'm not saying you're necessarily providing CRITIQUE which can be helpful as well, but more that having a vocabulary for what you love/hate and why gives you the psychological scaffolding to break shit down and remix it into your own work. Everyone who's really fuckin good at something is a universal fanboy/fangirl about that thing. Want to write for TV? INHALE every fuckin thing you possibly can and build from that knowledge.

also and i swear to god this is the last thing is that you want to practice often and conscientiously. Don't aimlessly shit around and then go on /ic/ and be like WHY AIN'T I DO A GOOD because that shit's fuckin stupid and it'll be your own damn fault

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>>2857822
that's kinda why I wanna go my own way too. When I was younger I drew exclusively from imagination and while I've been using reference lately to check my work I wanna be able to draw well from imagination.

But since drawing from imagination seems to be one of /ic/'s biggest stumbling blocks - some people even think it's just a meme - I didn't expect most people here would understand.

>>2855630
>>2857859

Also found these helpful. Thanks!

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I try. I have a "muh style" but I suck at rendering and perspective.

"back then" art was not highly valued. And being an artist was more about being lucky enough to know royal people who didn't want you working in the fields. Artists were assigned by mentality, not talent. The worst art we have to offer is from europes isolation in the dark ages. It didn't matter how long they practiced or what other works they were allowed to look at, they didn't make talented people artists, they made pious people artists. Strictly visual art was not needed back then. The only reason people illustrated was for the vast majority who couldn't read, so the less complex looking pieces were understood easier and served their purpose best. The only reason people wanted to make something look good was for rich people to buy and sell it off. Jewelry, clothing, tableware, center pieces, statues, architecture ... those were the most needed forms of visually appealing and because of how vast the gap was between rich and working poor, there wasn't a huge demand for this stuff that some lucky shmow couldn't just fill immediately despite not being the best.

In the OP you can art being used to inform, not wow. You wanted someone that could draw a simple mammoth that isn't too complex and could be understood by all. It was more or less just a symbol or word rather than art.

TL;DR
Can humans will themselves to draw complex art without outside motivation? Yes ... if complexity is a necessity in demand and purpose. In the modern age we aren't scraping the bottom of the barrel just trying to survive. So we have extra money and job openings that allow for people to make and buy things solely because "they look pretty and serve 0 purpose"

>>2855105
Yeah I did my own thing. Learned most of what I know today through observation and deconstructing real life. I got real far. Never listened to ic's obsession with loomis and all of their other praised heroes. It is definately possible. I am better than most of the people on here. Now I know most of you wouldn't believe that but I can actually back my statements up. People say it's a stupid desicion but I beg to differ.people like to generalize I guess and we all like to think we know best. One shoe fits all? Just trust in yourself op. As long as you dump your ego and are honest with yourself you will be amazed at the progress you can make.