How do you get better at bargue drawing /ic/ bros? I still cant

>>2749921
People these days just copy them with literally a mechanical process of measuring angles and distances. It shouldn't be difficult, though it might take a long time and be a bit tedious.

>>2749924
im focusing on training my eyes in order to improve to the point i dont have to rely on any tools. I do everything in sight size now so I can do easy comparisons but I still havent achieved anything that would allow me to get past this whole thing.

Realize that it's a slow and deliberate process. It it not at all uncommon for a Bargue plate to take 15 to 20 hours if you're a beginner. Always be taking horizontals and verticals to get everything lined up.

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>>2749955
>15-20 hours

thats too much, man

>>2750291
Gittin good takes time.

I just started fiddling around with these. It's kind of neat.

Something that absolutely will get better the more time and frustration you put into it.

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>>2750291
https://www.amazon.com/Cast-Drawing-Using-Sight-Size-Approach/dp/0980045401

dude just set aside 2-4 hours three to four days a week. Don't think about "finishing", just focus on the process. Try to let it be meditative. Just focus on observing and getting. it. fucking. right. Clear your mind. You'll fall into a rhythm and before you know it you'll be able to put 40 hours into a drawing.

I think pic related was at like 20ish hours and I had to stop (needed the easel for something else) but I could see stuff that needed fixing and that I could have easily put another 10-15 hours into.

On your first one or two go ahead and be impatient, do it in 10 hours, but then start spending more time in the early phases really, really focusing on landing the proportions correctly the first time.

Really, clear mind. Meditate.

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>>2750291
Pic took me a good ten hours I think. It was my third cast drawing so I'm getting a little faster. This is over the course of several weeks, mind you.

>>2750345
Do you at least improve with every drawing made that long? I cant imagine going barely further when i put 10 hours into something

>>2750291

Two things:
One, break it up into multiple days. Maybe even a few weeks if work/schedule-related things are holding you down.
Two, once you break through the initial slog, the process can be almost pleasantly automatic. You get into an almost cathartic flow when you work for a few hours consistently, and the feeling that you're taking steps towards your own growth is great. Don't put on any music/videos that actively grab your attention.

>>2749921
What use is bargue drawing?

>>2750369

It outright obliterates symbol drawing.
It trains you to understand and use proportion.
It helps your eye get used to making measurements and comparisons on the fly.
It gives some rudimentary insight into basic anatomy.
And if you stick with it a while, it definitely helps you become more patient.

>>2750376
So a beginner can do this?

>>2750379

I was a beginner and I was recommended to do plates, so yes, absolutely.
But from what I hear, exercises like these are helpful no matter what your skill level.

>>2750379

I'm the other guy, but yes and no. Yes because Bargue plates were actually made for art students in french art universities in the times of Salon etc.

No, because it is tedious shit and a sure way to kill any drive and joy you get from art. You CAN move to Bargue plates, but first I'd start with simpler things like drawings things around you and those exercises in "Keys to Drawing" by Dodson.

>>2749921
Can someone link me to an introduction to bargue drawing? it seems helpful but I am sorta lost with what to start with.

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>>2750364
Yeah. After ditching the string (mostly) and visualising lines/transferred measurements, I've just gotten generally faster at *all* observational drawing. 30 second sketches of my dog come out in proportion. Even on shorter drawings, I'm able to handle stuff with confidence that was difficult before.

Pic related is a 2 hour comparative method drawing I did at a museum. The shadows on the mouth were very complex, but I got them close-enough.100% sure it's from my time sight-sizing.

>>2749941
How many have you done?

>>2750427
4 so far, all were made in 2 hours or so, no values or colors

>>2750414
>After ditching the string
Is that something people should be using or is it cool to just start without using any external tools?

>>2750432

Not him, but the tool is handy for beginners. In most cases it's better if you can do without, but if you're fucking up then using a tool isn't the end of the world. Focus on what you're producing first and foremost. If you draw like shit without using a string and a string helps you get a better result, use a string. Once you can draw well with a string, phase the string out to speed up your process.

are statues necessary with bargue or can i put there anything else?

>>2750448
Start with a few bargues of increasing difficulty, then use something matte white. It doesn't have to be a statue or cast, but that's highly recommended as a cast has been sculpted to showcase form. You know how a really good painting has a sense of 'form'? So does sculpture.

You can get a couple casts from:
https://www.fineartstore.com/s-2317-plaster-cast-models.aspx

$30-40 isn't too much when you consider the improvement you'll get. If you rotate it for 5 drawings that's $8 a drawing, which is waaaay better price/value than taking a class.

If you absolutely can't get a cast, you can go get a garden gnome or something and spray paint it matte white. As long as there's interesting features and it won't move at all.

>>2750432
Starting with some thread is a good idea. It's attractive to force the "I'm gonna do it hardcore and git gud rly fast!" thing and use no aids, but you're more likely to fuck things up and it'll take you just as long to improve. Use the string to start until it's definitely getting in the way more than it's helping. Don't lie to yourself about that either.

>>2750391
just google "sight size method" and "sight size book". Read more than one. Darren Rousar's book is also pretty worthy:
>>2750345

>>2750431
>>2749941
>do everything in sight size
>no values

Eh, doing nothing but sight size might be counter-productive because although it's building your abilities to measure, be patient, and check-and-recheck values/proportions, it also makes it very very easy to do so. You should do some shorter drawings here and there. just go look at whatever and sketch it in 30 minutes. If you can, go to a live model session that focuses on short-pose. Focus on the bargues/casts, but once a week temper it with comparative/constructive sketches.

Also, you should be working them up with values (no color is correct though). Doing 4 in 2 hours each is not correct. 2 hours is about the *minimum* for a beginner to get the simplified envelope and bed-bug lines in (depending on complexity). That's extremely important, but it's also extremely important to work it up through a value block-in. That's really where you'll start to understand light/shadow as well as form. When you practice observing subtle changes in light/shadow, it helps you to see where form turns and you'll be able to recognize and represent it much faster when you do short pose stuff or constructive, imagination* stuff.

*if imagination is your ultimate goal, work up to drawings from memory. Look at yourself in a mirror for 3 minutes, doing all the steps of sight-size, but only in your head. Then go elsewhere and, looking only at paper, get as much as you can but STAY ACCURATE, DON'T GUESS. Go back and take another look. Rinse and repeat. Eventually you can get to doing a full drawing with just two observation sessions (though maybe longer). As you do this it'll segue naturally into easier drawing from imagination.

>>2750466
>>2750470
thanks, ill keep that in mind

How long should it be taking me to do the first couple of bits of the book. (it's just simple stuff like the eye or the nose and there's no value just line) Should it be taking me hours to do these too or is it just for the more advanced plates that you have to fully render later in the book?

>>2750545
How is one suppoed to answer this? Everyone is different. Not even a pro could answer this question.

Take as much time as you need to get it right. Speed will come for sure eventually. There is literally no benefit to doing it in a certain time as long as you fuck up.

>>2750466
>Darren Rousar's
Where can i download his books?

>>2751141
Dunno, I bought my copy