Another way to learn how to draw

>>2728733
I think the idea is good.

>>2728733
idea can work but will require a huge amount of resources to do thouroghly past exxcersizes and logic puzzles with drawing. Those in and of themselves can prove useful, simple here is a shape rotated things and find the perspective can help starting artists pick up on seeing but its the putting it all together complex exercises that will be hard to do.

I really like the idea op. I'll check it out.

Interesting idea, but I wonder what benefit this has over actually drawing? I feel that an hour spent inking would give me way more valuable practice of accuracy and eye hand coordination than a hour of awkwardly connecting dots in a ms paint like software.

>>2728733
Can you actually draw?

If the answer is no, you have no business playing armchair artist, we have enough of those.

If the answer is yes, no it isn't, stop lying on the internet.

>>2728733
I thnk this is excellent OP.

I like the idea but it felt rather awkward to use

>>2728733
Oh look, more gimmicks to cull the competition.

File: 1477232233762.jpg (16KB, 450x450px) Image search: [Google]

16KB, 450x450px

>>2728787

>heh, you think you're a real artist? pshhhh, yeah right kid..... get off my turf punk, nothing personnel but i'm the real artist around here

The guy is just creating an infrastructure that can motivate otherwise unmotivated artists to practice, no need to be so butthurt and defensive about it. He's not playing "armchair artist" he's programming a setup that rewards practice in a game-like way. It's not that different to the unmotivatedlosers setup.

>>2728874
The "reward" for practice should be self evident if you put in the work like you're supposed to do rather than trying to bring world of warcraft into it.

>>2728876
Also not only that but he has a patreon link. This is ADVERTISEMENT and he should be BANNED no questions asked. It's pathetic because there are other similar sites for free like habitica to tracking your computer activity apps.

Anyway this thread is against the rules.

>>2728733
how good this turns out to be will be HEAVILY reliant on exactly what kind of training program you put together.

>for each correct action
>correct
how are gonne achieve that? especially for more complex tasks like gesture, contour drawing? i imagine that's difficult to program.

or maybe you'll just have them finish the exercise and not check how good it actually was. in that case, nevermind.
but i'll say this: drawing circles and lines will not make you a better artist. it'll always only be warmup.

also this >>2728787

File: thats just like your opinion man.jpg (46KB, 400x400px) Image search: [Google]

46KB, 400x400px

>>2728876

Should this could that supposed to this have to that. There's more than one way to reach a goal, you're mistaking ends and means. There's no need to be pretentious about it. I very much doubt you're qualified to be talking about "THE way to git gud at art" especially when it has more to do with motivation than methodology.

Some things work better for motivating some people. Personally I wouldn't use that program but I fully understand the motivating appeal of having a 'point system' for practice. I do a similar thing by counting my hours and putting it on a spreadsheet, then I try to beat my earlier records. A little competitiveness and goal-setting is a pretty tried and tested method for staying motivated, especially in a medium where (which most people learn after a year or two of art) the "self evident" part of improvement can taper off for weeks or even months at a time. As Vilppu says "The pace of learning of any given subject, after the initial rapid advancement, seems to move upwards in ever shortening steps, while the time between those steps seems to stretch out longer and longer until we begin to wonder if there is any movement at all."

Art is a very subjective experience, and it can be hard to measure progress, but if you have a 'point' system that gives you a solid metric.

But I'm probably wasting my time on this post, you've obviously made up your mind and you want to feel smug about how disciplined you are.

File: CWi2UyY.jpg (41KB, 393x406px) Image search: [Google]

41KB, 393x406px

>>2728889
>I do a similar thing by counting my hours and putting it on a spreadsheet

If you enjoy your work so much that you're at your desk from dawn to dusk you know you've put in the time. To log your time (an inaccurate measure of focus in my opinion) just says to me you don't really love what you as you see time as some sort of currency to some fictitious 10,000 hour rule. There is no 'tried and tested' set amount of hours it takes to become professional as it is different for everybody.

But I'm probably wasting my time on this post, you've obviously made up your mind (if you have one) on how stupid you are. Don't forget to make a pledge to OP.

File: 1421469745329.jpg (23KB, 720x400px) Image search: [Google]

23KB, 720x400px

>>2728892
>To log your time (an inaccurate measure of focus in my opinion) just says to me you don't really love what you as you see time as some sort of currency to some fictitious 10,000 hour rule.

I think I called it when I said you've made up your mind and you just want to feel smug.

I know, anon, you're just so passionate! You love art so much, every second you spend is just pure unadulterated bliss and you never have days where you don't feel like it yet still push yourself to develop your skill. It's all fun and games, and I'm sure every skillful artist would agree with you about that.

No, I don't believe in the 10,000 hour rule, I think that setting measurable goals and meeting them is a healthy road to self improvement and that having a solid, recorded metric of achievement is satisfying. I think that vague nebulous goals are worthless and that I'm better served by saying "I'm going to spend 30 hours practicing perspective and see where it got me at the end" than "I'm gonna draw perspective its so fun then I'll look at it and ill be SOOO GOOD XD"

But you're a condescending shit who clearly has this art thing all figured out, so suit yourself.

>>2728892
Grow up. Guy made a well-thought out post and here you are continuing to shitpost. This thread is obviously for people who have an interest in the idea or can see reasons to support. If you want to be some elitist PoS, take it to the beginner thread if you really need an ego boost that much.

File: 34nyo.jpg (68KB, 600x700px) Image search: [Google]

68KB, 600x700px

>>2728899
I'm not even talking to you. Don't butt in.
>>2728897
>But you're a condescending shit who clearly has this art thing all figured out, so suit yourself.
I don't quite understand how you can think that about me with one or two posts. I don't see how you can disagree with putting in the work, regardless of external digital rewards, is most important.

I can see this app appealing to the /vg/ crowd who love to play MMO and find the exp gathering a great incentive to learning to draw. Fine, these are the people OP will get wallets to open up. But like I said, there are free apps that are similar and this thread is advertisement and against the rules.
>I think that vague nebulous goals are worthless
I'm the opposite, I think writing down goals is a far more valuable habit to do than hour tacking on the wall like an ancestor.

>>2728733
>The first that comes to mind, is to go to art school, or to watch hundreds of tutorials on youtube
*if you're retarded

File: bargue-plate-5.jpg (12KB, 221x300px) Image search: [Google]

12KB, 221x300px

>>2728733
Bargue and Gerome did this already, better, 150 years ago.

Give up, your system will not be as effective.

/thread.

>>2728889

There's a better way to do things than setting up "goals" and relying on "motivation".

It's called having a system and sticking to a schedule.

You see. Your ultimate goal is to reach certain skill level. Your system is the exercises you practice to reach that level.

Goals are good for planning your system, but ultimately you shall rely on your system to get actual shit done.

>>2728733
I like the idea of the experience system, but the actual exercises and stuff could use work.

It's too complicated. I'd use a more "submit a sketchbook page for exp" baseline, and then spread out into your sets and supersets and suchlike as challenges users can opt in to complete.

Function as more of a companion app than a learning tool, if you catch my drift. More motivational, less educational. Less subject to scrutiny, too, /ic/ is VERY particular about learning processes

Would suggest implementing a "streak" system where submitting content multiple days in a row earns you culmative bonuses. Also maybe badges or trophies for hitting milestones, challenges, etc. Or completing old freeware e-books you incorporate into it, idk.

Overall, nice initiative, anon!

>>2728907
>I don't see how you can disagree with putting in the work, regardless of external digital rewards, is most important.

I'm not. I'm saying setting up an external metric is helpful and supports putting in the work. It enforces a good behavior, that's the point. Having a point system isn't a replacement for doing art, it merely quantifies it in a way you can quickly measure.

>I'm the opposite, I think writing down goals is a far more valuable habit to do than hour tacking on the wall like an ancestor.

Writing down goals like what? I said nebulous are useless. "Get better at perspective" is a poor goal, you have very few ways to measure when you met it. Useful goals are measurable. You go "I want to get better at perspective, how?" So you set a goal like "Read x book on perspective" or "Do x number of perspective drawings" or "spend x number of hours practicing perspective." You review if it helped at the end.

Those are measurable goals. You KNOW when you met them. Reaching goals is a rewarding sensation to 99% of humanity. Setting goals and having a structured procedure doesn't magically mean you hate the process, nor does counting hours. It's a record. A journal. So you can keep yourself accountable. Again, it enforces good behavior. To some, that "level up" sort of ding just works for them.

I know for a fact how many hours I've drawn this month and I know for a fact it's a few less than last month, so I intend to push a little harder the next two days to catch up, because I find meeting and exceeding my past achievements satisfying and worthwhile. If I hadn't been keeping track I probably wouldn't have any idea.

Some of us respond well to creating a regimen. It keeps us honest with ourselves and it keeps us disciplined. Maybe that doesn't work for you, that's fine, but you were acting awfully condescending to any method that wasn't your own. Again, you were mistaking means and ends. We share the goal, we approach it differently.

>>2728912
The Bargue course is hardly a complete lesson plan, and it's not entirely relevant today. Hell, Bargue himself had felt that because something had been done before he wouldn't have made that course--it was done to replace the previous set of plates that students had to copy called the Julien Course.

File: 483tb.jpg (44KB, 564x923px) Image search: [Google]

44KB, 564x923px

>>2728920
>Reaching goals is a rewarding sensation to 99% of humanity.
True but If you are reaching your goals that quickly you aren't setting targets that are higher than what you previously thought would be acceptable. The issue with the points system is that it reinforces a quick gratification that stems from MMORPG, which is a bad influence. Do X for Y hours receive Z reward. This puts the beginner in a state of mind where they go "hey I've been at this for a few days/weeks and I still suck where is my level up where is my gains?" because they are used to that instant reward.

An arbitrary number was set for them, not high enough mind you, whilst logging an arbitrary time they think it takes to complete a small goal (for the day) and expect their efforts to be anywhere but satisfactory. This is a bad bad way to think imo.

So ask yourself without lying to yourself if reaching a "sensation" of accomplishment daily is actually doing you any favors. My hunch is that It isn't. Just look at LAS; I know one guy who wants to kill himself everyday just for submitting to the site because he's W1. A 'rewarding sensation' as you like to call it would be much more satisfying after accomplishing loftier goals than short, daily goals like some MMO quest to get the next piece of +10 tier gear.

>>2728930

There's nothing wrong with short term goals that give you quick gratification as long as you don't just stop there. You seem to mistakenly be thinking that just because somebody wants a guided regimen that it means they don't have long term aspirations.

The idea of an MMO style level-up system is that as soon as you level up you've got the next level after it. The examples I provided in regards to perspective can also be short term (it doesn't take that long to finish a book usually, even if you do the exercises), but they work towards broader goals (the nebulous ones like 'Get better at perspective') which work towards broader goals still ('git gud').

All the XP system (or any other metric, be it counting hours or whatever) does is quantify something that would otherwise be obscure. It's "perform x task, get x amount of points. Points are good, you want them." That sort of thing just clicks for some people, the same way an athlete pushes himself harder when it means he can have a medal or be first place, because the competitive spirit is motivating. The alternative you provide (and while you sound more civil now and I appreciate that, in your earlier posts you were a little bit of a cunt about it) is "perform x task just because you'll git gud and gitting gud is its own reward." which is a lot less measurable and a lot easier to lose sight of. This can be pretty damning for people who struggle to stay motivated / have a poor opinion of their progress, but still do want to improve.

>So ask yourself without lying to yourself if reaching a "sensation" of accomplishment daily is actually doing you any favors.

Yes, why wouldn't it? If it was me who set a goal "draw 5 hours today" and then I drew 5 hours and felt good that I met my goal, why would I be worse off than the guy who drew 5 hours today without setting any goals who didn't get the satisfaction of achieving that goal?

>>2728936
>You seem to mistakenly be thinking that just because somebody wants a guided regimen that it means they don't have long term aspirations.

I could type a wall of text for this point but in summary OP doesn't have you in mind, but your wallet, hence why there is a patreon link. How can one guide you on a correct path when the OP in question does not draw? He also has stayed silent this whole time.
>The idea of an MMO style level-up system is that as soon as you level up you've got the next level after it.
No, the idea of an MMO system is a carrot on the stick incentive. Your next level is irrelevant until you get to end game and by the time you're at the end game content you'll still be chasing short term goals until the next patch rolls out and the cycle repeats itself.

I don't believe in short term, either go big, supersize, extra large it or don't even bother. So if I were to follow an MMO system my goals will never be reached and or underestimated because I keep setting short term posts where I THINK I know when I should be better at something. How can I know when the exact day/hour/time I'll be better at X subject? How will the guy programming the site know this if I don't know?
>If it was me who set a goal "draw 5 hours today" and then I drew 5 hours and felt good that I met my goal, why would I be worse off than the guy who drew 5 hours today without setting any goals who didn't get the satisfaction of achieving that goal?
Because you quantify the hours committed as the 'feel good' factor and the other guy who draws because he loves to do it will do so for hours everyday without fussing over time. I've already said this.

>>2728958

He might just be out for money, but he's selling a tool. I can't speak for the quality of what sort of goals it sets, maybe his program is shit, but in theory there's nothing wrong with an XP system.

>Your next level is irrelevant until you get to end game

The end-game is an objective certainly, but each level is a micro-objective with its own rewards. Even with that as a given, so what? Say the xp system is simply "10 xp per hour you spend drawing, reach level 1000 and you win ;^)"
The guy does it, reaches level 1000. He still drew for 10,000 hours. Ultimately it's an artificial guideline, the difference between a level 1000 artist and an artist who just picked up a pencil and drew for 10,000 hours independently is null, they both did exactly the same thing, one just had an external incentive system because it worked for him.

>I don't believe in short term

Well that's your call but it's far from the only option (and in my opinion ignoring short term planning is incredibly foolish). You're ignoring that short term goals build towards long term goals.

>day/hour/time I'll be better at X subject?

"I'm better" is almost entirely at the whims of your opinion, "I practiced the subject for 30 hours" is an indisputable fact and presumably if you want to get better "practice the subject" is how you'll do it. The idea of setting measurable goals is to escape the subjective.

>Because you quantify the hours committed as the 'feel good' factor etc

You're assuming that people who create regimens do so because they're not passionate or something, which is retarded and flies in the face of the fact that a vast majority of professionals in any field. People who aspire to be skilled create routines or some form of system for training with goals on how to improve, because "just doing whatever sounds fun right now" usually does not lead to a balanced skillset.

>>2728978
>You're assuming that people who create regimens do so because they're not passionate or something
Never did I imply that. I only said something on the lines of "logging in your hours" is retarded if you love your job.
>"just doing whatever sounds fun right now"
You are confusing "love for what you do" with "just doing whatever sounds fun right now". If you love what you do then you will perhaps might invest money on proper schooling may it be at a workshop or online education like schoolism. If you invest in good education while just drawing everyday what you like that is "regimen" enough. I think you are overthinking planning--all you have to do is simply draw.

Don't think about EXP points, or pretend stats, or badges, or likes/favs, or dancing bears. Just draw because you like to draw.

>guy comes up to you, an unaesthetic DYEL
>He says "Hey man I've got this killer training routine that's gonna get you shredded, you're gonna be the next Shwarzeneiger dawg!"
>You ask "is this the routine you did? You look like shit"
>Response: "Well, uh, maybe if you do it it'll actually work"
That's what threads like these amount to, same with draw-a-box.

>>2728892
>>2728907
>don't butt in.
Welcome to 4chan
>>2728930
>Global Rule 13: Do not use avatars or attach signatures to your posts.
>avatars
My advice to the people in this thread is report this faggot and don't forget to sage

>>2729001
That isn't avatarfagging, newfag. Avatarfagging is like using an avatar like yahoo! answers.

It is you who needs to be banned for advertisement.

>>2729005
You are dumb as shit.
1. I am not OP. I agree, OP does need to be banned for advertising.
2. It is avatarfagging, posting reimu to identify yourself as the "reimu poster" in the thread is using an avatar
3. You can't report advertising anymore, just normal rule violations.

>>2729012
1) Not all my posts have reimu in it.
2) They are not avatars, one is a smug post and another just a regular picture
3) you're stupid

>>2728733
It would be an amazing idea if you can incorportate proper learning methods into it. It's been crazy effective to use games/gaming with learning for motivation, but it means nothing if what's taught is shit.

Make sure you focus on the fundamentals, and get some research done into better ways to practise. :) Great idea, look forward to seeing it.

>>2728998

>Never did I imply that.

You did by repeatedly drawing a distinction between people who create 'systems' and people who "just do it because they love it". Sometimes people who love it still create systems. I enjoy drawing and I still log my hours, especially when it comes to practicing things I don't want to practice. If doing perspective exercises bores me I'll say "do 5 hours of it then you can draw for fun." I'll still log how many hours I draw for fun, because I get the satisfaction of going "Fuck yeah I beat my old record." and I enjoy that sensation, and it might encourage me to push an extra few drawings at the end of my day when I'd otherwise call it a day. Don't just assume I'm sitting there cringing like I'm pulling teeth drawing just so I can meet my quota, it takes like 2 seconds to write a time down on a spreadsheet when I'm done for the day.

>may it be at a workshop or online education like schoolism.

What do you think they're going to do in those workshops? They're going to teach you a subject, then they're going to tell you to practice what they established in their class. There's a reason many classes have homework like "Draw 100 heads using the formula outlined in the class" or "design 30 pages of thumbnails for next class" when teaching you. They give you an objective and then you meet the objective. This is not really different from saying "get 100 xp for drawing 100 heads using this formula". The regimen provides the structure, the same as taking a class or workshop, which works well for some people. Workshops certainly have the added benefit of instruction and critique, but that's an added benefit of workshops rather than a flaw of another system which provides at least some of the same benefits.

>Don't think about

I'll think about whatever works for me and continue to enjoy drawing too, thanks.

>>2729038
>You did by repeatedly drawing a distinction
I did not, you want to see it that way through your tinted goggles. This always happens in 4chan debates.
>Sometimes people who love it still create systems
Sure, and there are people who don't fuss about trivial things.
>I enjoy drawing and I still log my hours, especially when it comes to practicing things I don't want to practice.
Just like if you're working a 9-5 you hate you still have to punch in your time card so you get paid properly except in your case you don't have a department that takes care of your payroll hours nor will you boast to your co-workers how much hours you logged in for the week (hint 40 hours like everyone else) but it's all for yourself. So imagine you looking at your stub and going "WOW look at all those hours I put in). Nobody does this. They look at the pay and only care about the pay, the outcome from all their hard work. But to each his own.
>and I enjoy that sensation
like I said before >>2728930 sensation to you is numbers rather than the work committed. You keep contradicting yourself here and don't want to admit it.
>Don't just assume I'm sitting there cringing like I'm pulling teeth drawing just so I can meet my quota
Never crossed my mind at first until you brought it up.
>They give you an objective and then you meet the objective.
And if you read what I've been saying this whole time I said target objectives never work out but exceeding the given objective is much better. Bigger, loftier goals for the 2nd or 3rd time.
>I'll think about whatever works for me and continue to enjoy drawing too, thanks.
Sure. Same here?

>>2729048

>I did not, you want to see it that way through your tinted goggles. This always happens in 4chan debates.

Ok, if you say so.

>Sure, and there are people who don't fuss about trivial things.

That condescention is coming back, anon.

>Just like if you're working a 9-5 you hate you

You were just talking about those goggles, retard. What an idiotic assumption to make when I explicitly said that isn't the idea. I like to know the time I spend on things, it doesn't mean I'm treating it as a "9-5 I hate", I'm not counting down (except in instances where I'm practicing a thing I don't enjoy practicing, and even then I'll sometimes push beyond my time if I think it'll help), I'm counting up, that's a pretty big fucking difference.

>sensation to you is numbers rather than the work committed.

Could it be I enjoy both? Could it be the satisfaction of meeting a goal compliments the satisfaction of doing good work, rather than replacing it?

>Never crossed my mind at first until you brought it up.

Well I wonder where your pants-on-head retarded tirade above came from anyway.

>And if you read what I've been saying this whole time I said target objectives never work out but exceeding the given objective is much better.

Why the fuck are you assuming that setting targets disallows you from exceeding targets? Why do you think me setting a target to draw for 5 hours means I can't draw for 6? You JUST GOT DONE shitting on me for saying I enjoy exceeding my targets. It boggles my mind how you can't conceive of the notion that you can divide a big, lofty goal into several small, measurable goals. Watch, I'll do it.
"Get good at art."
How?
"Learn the fundamentals."
What's my worst fundamental?
Perspective
How can I improve perspective?
Read a book. Practice perspective.
Goal: Finish a book, do x number of perspective drawings, review. Start again from the top, adjusting goals as you go.

File: 4356.jpg (18KB, 210x240px) Image search: [Google]

18KB, 210x240px

>>2729063
Anon just let it go. It is clear you and I see things differently. You see time logging and short goal give the mouse a cheese essential to your success and I see overachieving original goals and not worrying about trivial mmo apps and digital buttplugs essential to my success.

Agree to disagree. We still friends?

>>2729075
>You see time logging and short goal give the mouse a cheese essential to your success

Complimentary to my success, but you seem to struggle to grasp that still.

>and I see overachieving original goals

So do I. Take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves, the saying goes.

>not worrying about trivial mmo apps and digital buttplugs

You really are a condescending little fuckwit. Congratulations, you actually kind of annoyed me with this whole useless debate, not necessarily because we disagreed so much as your shitty attitude. So if that's what you were after well done. If it wasn't, try being less of a smug, condescending fuckwit in the future and people might find you less agitating.

>>2729015
>N-not all my shitposts have anime grill in it! only some do
Fuck off

>>2729096
>I-I feel left out in the convo so I want to get your attention by complaining about pictures on an imageboard
have my (you)

File: 1444541757416.png (12KB, 645x773px) Image search: [Google]

12KB, 645x773px

>this entire thread

can we please just get along

>>2729102
>My shitposting continues
>Let me project some insecurities to you
Can't you shit up someone else's board

File: 1399399621041.jpg (19KB, 250x248px) Image search: [Google]

19KB, 250x248px

>>2729105

No.

File: Anime-Girl-Wishes-Goodbye-Talk-To-You-Later-Glitter.gif (148KB, 320x240px) Image search: [Google]

148KB, 320x240px

>>2729108

>>2729114
Good riddance

>>2728733
It's a neat concept, but i feel like the reward system is a bit convoluted and sort of unnecessary, the reward should be something much more simpler like appraisal and overall score on how you did and what not, to encourage more mainstream beginners and other levels to get into it much more simply, although that's just my thought
Otherwise good job, this can help out a lot of people while keeping them entertained

>a bunch of people who can't draw arguing about how to learn
just another /ic/ thread