This Is Going To Be A Long One...

Also, I forgot to add: About a month ago she emailed me and asked if I could pay her upfront for another commission. I told her no thanks I'll wait until my other is done(I was saying that just to get her to work on my old one, I wasn't going to give her more). After I nicely told her "No thanks, let's finish what we have now" she got legit upset. She copped a real bad attitude and said something like "Whatever, I'll do it whenever I find time. Thanks for all your help when I needed it."

She clearly can't manage money at all and I'm suffering for it and possible other clients.

>>2658727
>I paid her the $360 up front
idiot

>>2658753
No that bitch and bitches like her give artists a bad name. She should be shunned forever.

>>2658728
>About a month ago she emailed me and asked if I could pay her upfront for another commission.
Tell her to do your comm or you'll ask the bank to get your money bank. And don't pay upfront. Any artist that takes on too many comms is a red flag.

>>2658767
>And don't pay upfront.

Great way to do work and not get payed for it. Learned that the hard way. Always demand (partial) payment up front now. Stfu casual.

Can you link us the artist?

>>2658782
I would rather not, I don't want to start shit I'm merely asking for unbiased advice.
>>2658753
Most artists I know have clients pay upfront and never have a problem. What's the other best option?

>>2658808
Fair enough, I just wanted to see the quality of work that jusifies charging $360. Im trying to figure out my own commission prices

>>2658808
Not that I charge a lot, but for anything significant (say over $100, but I'm also a poorfag), I'd offer partial advance payment (i.e. 25% sketch, then the rest).

Shame the shit out of her. At this point she's stolen your money and tried to manipulate you into giving her more. If you can't get your piece, or your money back, at least you can stop other people from getting scammed.

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>>2658727
well that's bad. get aggressive then. tell her you want the drawings done in a week, or you want your money back. if she's unwilling to do so, warn her you'll take actions.
I understand that you don't want to start a flamewar with her, but you should warn other people, that she's not holding the agreement. she probably wants to avoid a bad reputation.

asking for the money upfront is fine, though that is a lot of money.

what I usually do is ask for the half upfront while I am doing the sketches. once we come to a clear understanding of how the final result should look like, I wait for the rest of the money and then I'll start finishing the picture within the next 2 days.

it worked fine for me most of the time.

>>2658824
>>2658820
What would be the next course of action if she refuses to refund me and still doesn't do my work?

>>2658860
Tell her that you are going to sue her.

Nobody likes a sue (not even you, sadly). But let your words and all of the e-mails you sent spread over and you will for sure ruin her reputation... And before that happens, she will eventually:

>apologize and work
>apologize and refund

Keep firm. Remind her she's not giving you a favour. You paid her. It's her obligation to work.

Sorry for bad inglish.

>>2658860
Small claims court (assuming you're both living in the USA, otherwise lol good luck). Also look into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_and_wire_fraud, but it depends on how you paid her.
The downside is that the cost of filing/getting legal advise is going to eat most of whatever money you might get paid back, but it may be possible to recoup those as well. In any case, someone has to make a stand, who knows how many others she's cheated out of their money.

>>2658860
as a last resort, you can always reveal her name here. she won't find any new customers after this.

As other anons said, if nothing works post the artist here. We screencap the thread and voila. She won'b be taking anybodies money anytime soon.
But really shitty move on her part, doesn't do anything and then asks for more money.

>>2658727
>commissioning women

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>>2658888
Oh, yes. That's super shitty. I cannot believe it.

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This shit irritates me to no end. I've been living off commissions for a year or so with a 5-9 day turnaround, and I always get people saying 'wow thats so fast, ive been waiting for a picture I paid for a year ago from so-and-so'. Like a fucking year. So many artists just coast on the bare minimum of work and are kept afloat by exploiting generous and well-meaning people. Its absolutely disgusting. Good luck calling them out on it too, because if theres one thing these sacks of shit have, its excuses.

On practical advice. Assuming you paid her thru paypal, if you sent the money directly to her you can chargeback whenever you want. If she sent an invoice and you paid her thru that, you have to dispute a chargeback. At this point, if a chargeback is within your power, I would either tell her she has a week to finish the pic or you're charging back, or just tell her you no longer want the picture and you want to be refunded or you'll be charging back soon, then do so. She'll throw a fit and say shes depressed or her moms sick or her cat died or some shit but she deserves it. Get your money back bitch.

Just state politely how it is - you're not the bad guy, she is.
If I were you, I'd demand a refund, she's probably gonna half-ass it once you push on her and no artist behaving so unprofessionally has work worth $360.
Keep us updated.

>>2658778
What if you send them the file in low res with an ugly watermark and remove it once they pay? Still a bad idea?

You should just be like, alright, I'm obviously not going to get my art anytime soon so I will let potential consumers know how you are so they won't be scammed like how I was. That should change her attitude a bit.

It sucks, but it's a shit economy and money's money. She doesn't seem like any sort of angel either, so fuck her. Don't feel bad about it.

>>2658727
She sounds like a horrible person. You got scammed hard son. If she doesn't give you any evidence she's working on your commission today, you really should post a link to her account so she can't scam any one else and gets what she deserves.

>>2658727
>keeps being a 'nice guy' while being blatantly scammed
nice going, fagtron

>>2658811
Maybe he could post a crop-out of some artwork of hers or something

Can't she have her fanbase turn on me if I freeze her account for reporting her?

>>2658727
>>2658728

Man you really got some shitty person there.
I'm an artist myself too, I ask 50% first, then do my shit and finish and get the other half.

Just tell her to fuck off, and you want your money back.

>>2658976
I'd take a bunch of internet nerds bitching at me over losing 360 dollars bud

What about reporting to PayPal?

>>2658976
retarded

What I don't understand is how artists think they can get away with shit like this? For example; say the artist has a queue of 10 commissions but needs money next month for bills. Common sense would say do the queue then open up new commissions. How the fuck can an artist still continue to ask for new commissions while refusing to do the older work that was already paid for? It blows my mind.

OP if you're still here I'll finish the commission for you free of charge, no payment or bullshit.

School starts in 2 weeks for me and I'm waiting with nothing to do. Send me the idea or sketches she sent and I'll finish it.

>>2658808
>would rather not, I don't want to start shit I'm merely asking for unbiased advice

The best thing you can do, seeing as she fucked you, is tell us her name so at least she won't get business from people here. You'll probably never see your money or sketch. An artist is nothing without their reputation.

>>2659099
Because, sadly, scammers *do* get away with it a lot of times, which is why the practice persists.

Sure, 1 in 5 might ask for their money back and be persistent enough to escalate, but the other 4 will just give up and call it a loss.

>>2658727
I've done this to someone before, and it wasn't because I was trying to scam someone. I was in a bad situation and was desperate for money and took a commission that was something I couldn't handle. A good person would have just refunded the money but I didn't, I promised to finish the thing. I did eventually finish it, but... it took over a year. I felt so bad that I did a bunch of free drawings for the person who had waited so long. I've finished 2 extra drawings for them and they tell me they feel it's not enough and I should do more. I've since apologized and cut contact with them. I just wanted to forget about all of it.

I'll be honest, I've got awful depression and anxiety issues. It keeps me from doing anything I want to.

I should have never taken that commission in the first place. But I wasn't a professional. I was a dumb, mentally ill kid.

In the future, avoid children with brain problems like me.

Sorry that you had to go through that anon.

>>2659114
How the fuck did it take you a year for 1 image?

>>2659114
>I'll be honest, I've got awful depression and anxiety issues

I'm sorry but this NOT a real excuse. I'm sick of hearing about other artists saying OH I HAVE DEPRESSION. In what other fucking jobs can you say this without doing the work and getting paid?

>>2659117
I just suck.
it's hard to explain but anytime I would work on it, I hated everything I did and felt it wasn't good enough, that the person was going to hate it
The main issues it that I was retarded and when I opened commissions said I would do "anything"
and they wanted porn
And I had never drawn porn
So when what I was doing was not able to live up to my other work (which wasn't great either)
I quickly became very demotivated
so I ended up scrapping maybe 30 wips
When I did finally finish, I still hated what was done, but it was better than all the others I had done.

I was 15 (I'm legal now) at the time, the payment was about $40, which was more money than I had ever had a commission for before.

I'm also a female, btw.
So to add on to my last post "Don't commission mentally ill children who are also women" probably

>>2659122
No, its not an excuse, but it's a reason I shouldn't have taken commissions in the first place. It might have been different if I had gotten treatment for it. But I've only had medication once and then insurance ran out and I haven't been to a doctor since.

>>2659124
well if you were 15 that excuses it. all 15 year olds do dumb shit.

You should never pay an artist in full upfront I thought most artists just ask for a deposit incase they get fucked over.

>>2659114
>>2658727

I've had a similar problem, took me a long time to do finish a commish. Anon wanted a comic of about 4 to 5 pages for 60 bucks, with some solo pics. I was only able to give out a few solo pics before some personal matters got out of hand for me. only have 1 to 2 pages done of mini smut comic done even atm, just because of work and depression, pushing myself to finish it up after about 6 months. Feels bad man.

It's all related to one character they really like alot so I am gonna throw in some more free solo images too.

>>2659135
You always ask for full money upfront when freelancing unless you:
A) have a contract
B) are working through a platform that banks the money ao you don't get scammed

Anything else, and you're being retarded.
>b-b-but then I won't commission you
Literally irrelevant.

OP post the art here.

Let me see if I can understand this correctly.

-You paid her months ago, you have yet to see your work.
-She's broke and has no money so instead of doing stuff already paid for she's continuing to take money and commissions

Is that the just of it? Assuming she is indeed broke and needs money to pay bills whatever how is this the clients fault? The client paid and did their end of the deal. Also a huge red flag that she got mad at you when you declined to give her more money. That's not a good sign at all. Anyone that would get mad over that has severe mental issues.

>>2659124
>I'm also a female, btw.

This explains why you got away with it.

>>2659184
>Female
>Art
>Mental issues

You don't say...

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Buckle up kid, this is a real horror story. I'll try to make it short but detailed.

3 years ago before I got into college I got a bunch of money back on taxes and being the horny teen I was decided to commission porn. I met a upcoming artist and we hit it off right away, we liked a lot of the same shit so we started to talk a lot. We soon became friends I guess you would call it. ANYWAY, I commissioned him for 3 pieces and paid the entire $500 upfront, that summer I still got the sketches and we continued to talk. He told me he was in need of some money could I commissions more. I said sure and gave him another $500, skip to 2015 Spring and Summer a year later still no art yet we still talked and talked a lot. He taught me about art etc etc.

Winter 2015 he told me about how he was still broke and had to help his parents and pay bills. I commissioned him again without anything to show for it. Early 2016 he told me his commission queue was in the 40s and he'd promise me to have all 10 or so commissions I paid for. But brokedown mentally while chatting and told me how he was in a real bad spot in life and didn't know what to do. He said if he couldn't find money for pays and to replace electronic parts at his house. I felt real bad and gave him more money.

CONTINUED IN PART 2

>>2659232
>CONTINUED IN PART 2
oh boy

>>2659232

It should come to no surprise I'm an idiot, nearly years later having very little to show for it I had given him around $3000 dollars. I admit, I have a real soft spot for emotion and people less fortunate than myself. The last 2 years I considered him a friend and fellow artist. But Around April this year I had enough, I basically told him off telling him I've been waiting for years for art I paid for. He got mad, real mad saying he's been working on them and I'd have them soon. He told me how he worked on commissions at least 10 hours a day everyday and he was trying to clear commissions and he'd do all my art ASAP.

He's the kicker, the last 2 years instead of doing my work he's been streaming and taking new commissions for other people. Keep in mind he still has 40+ commissions in his queue 10 of those being mine. Not only is he not doing mine from years ago but he's apparently not doing other peoples. How do I know? Well for someone who works 10+ hours a day he posts full commissions every 3-4 months. He's digging his hole deeper while not doing the older work. What he does with his 10 hours a day I have no idea.

>>2659241
So this Spring I had enough, I called him out. Told him I know he's doing new commissions and not doing mine and I got mad. (I'm a real real nice guy it takes a lot to get me mad). I told him I was done helping him. Again he got mad and tried to turn the story around saying he's been working everyday on commissions and tried to make me look like the bad guy even though I've given him all that money to help him out. I had enough, to me the friendship was over but I didn't want to really piss him off where he'd take the money and split so I just said whatever he'd get around to it sometime. I chalked all the money up as a loss and realized how stupid I was and I learned lesson.

I stopped talking to him for a month this summer and when I came back he was mad. He said I wasn't around when her needed help. He said he sent me e-mails asking for money or more commissions and that he had to do more work for other people to pay bills. This is no joke by the way. Since then I hear from him every once in awhile and he keeps saying I'll have your work done by next month, oh next month, oh next month.

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>>2659257
It came to a point where I offered him $500 to have all my work done by next month so I could finally close the book on him. I figured another $500 would at least get me the art I paid for over the last 2 years and I would at least have something to show for it. He agreed, that was last month and he still says he's working on it.

Am I a fucking idiot? Yes. The thing that bothers me most is I was giving the guy money so he could live life, pay bills and etc and I could get art. That's gone on for years. I know I'll never see any of the art ever, this guy can't be trusted by anyone.

He's told me over and over his got under $100 in his bank that' why he keeps taking new commissions and doesn't have time to do old stuff. I used to check out his stream to see if he was working on my art, but no he was asking people in his chat for commission money to help pay bills. For the last 2 years he's been dead broke and I helped him for nothing. He was once my friend but he's literally digging his own grave.

I still feel bad for the guy, I'm sure under there somewhere he's a nice guy and he needs to do something with his life but he's buried himself far too deep. He just goes from person to person asking for money and very rarely does the work. His art is great but he's lost.

Lesson is never pay upfront 100% EVER.

>>2659232
>>2659235
>>2659241
>>2659257
Holy fucking shit man. You need to report him ASAP

>>2659262
>. I figured another $500 would at least get me the art I paid for over the last 2 years and I would at least have something to show for it. He agreed, that was last month and he still says he's working on it.
Please tell me you didn't give him the money.

>Lesson is never pay upfront 100% EVER.
No, the lesson is that you shouldn't be a complete retard with no social skills or common sense who gives money to his """internet friends""".

You're the art equivalent of fat chicks and shut in virgins that get taken in by their "online gf" on shitty mtv shows.

>>2659268
Eh, he's just a broken person. I am sure the best thing anon could do he already did - step away.

>>2659270
I disagree. The guy felt bad for the guy and decided to help him out. Granted he went too far and I think he felt like he was "taking care" of someone in need.
>>2659277
This. Just walk away and drop all connection to him. Let it die.

>>2659270
Clearly you never met like minded people online on sites not named 4chan. I have a whole Skype list of artists I've talked to over the years and have met at cons. You sound like a closed minded autist.

>>2659268
He needs to at least tell others his name so people can avoid him and not also get scammed by him.

>>2659280
>people you meet person = people you only talk to online
>acquaintances are friends
>implying you'd give 3000 bucks to any of them

Report her.

>>2658727
Ask for your money back. She sounds like a cunt, and you sound like a pussy. If she's being hostile and refuses to either pay you back or finish the work you paid her for, you have no reason to be polite or act nice to her. Either get your money back, get her to do your drawing, or share her name so people can be warned about her behaviour. If she's streaming, you can probably get her banned if you report her to the admins.

I once lost $150 a kid to porn commission. I paid the guy $200 for 50/50 payment. Never heard from the guy for an entire year. So I gave up, a year later he showed me the sketch and demanded the rest of the money.

I basically told him he didn't answer me for an entire year so fuck off.

Shades of Idlecil.

Remember this guy? A half of dozen complains about him on this board. Someone dug up info and found out he was like an entire year behind with like 30 commissions in backlog. Then some in his stream saw he was asking for new commissions and handouts for help. When a couple Anons confronted him he said he felt horrible and all his old commissions would be done by next month. That was February 2015. Any updates onthis fucking scumbag?

>>2664206
I was just thinking about him last week. I'll check out his streams couple times a month because he has good art. The problem is he doesn't work. He streams for like 8 hours a day but there are long stretches of 45 mins a couple times a night where he doesn't work he just disappears. He's lazy as fuck, word is the guy has severe mental problems like depression and he's just a real loser. To answer your question, he's still not current with his commissions and if anything he's even further behind. Look at his Tumblr. All he can do is sketches anymore because they are quick and he doesn't take the time to color or do full commission anymore. He's a fucking bum and anyone who gave him money has been ripped off by him. He's always being talking about in an artist group I chat in.

I'm an artist I've never been a client. Can someone please help me understand how this happens? Shouldn't clients do research about artists before sending them money? How aren't people finding out about what an artist does theft like this.

>>2664436
You can't find out if the scammed clients don't say anything.

>oh well, he took my 3000 dollarinos, whatcha gonna do, live and learn lol

>>2664436
There is a site called ArtistBeware. It's a site were clients can spill the beans on artists that are awful people. Sadly the blog is 99% about furry artists.

>>2658927
>Still a bad idea?
Well they could still decide they don't like it and refuse to pay. Then you wasted time doing work for no reason, even though you don't give the image to them.

>>2659165
>always ask for all money upfront

Why? So you can get scammed like anon?

>>2664493
You draw an image, send it to the person, they refuse to pay you.

What are you going to do?

>>2664498
The 50/50 rules works best.

They pay you 50% up front and when both parties agree that the sketch is 100% done you get the other 50% then you can line and color. Simple as that.

>>2664498
Do a partial deposit like I said you dumb fuck.

Basically this >>2664503

>>2659241
>>2659257
>>2659262

something something kindness to the point of cruelty

This guy clearly has deep seated issues that wont be helped by feeding him like a drug addict. He probably really hates himself and needs therapy. Most of all he needs to stop taking commissions and finish what he owes everyone.

>>2659232
>>2659241
>>2659257
>>2659262
Christ, I wish I knew a loaded sucker who'd give me ~$3500 for sob stories.

I've been a commission artist for years and I've used Sketch-Payment-Finish for all this time, it feels like the best system to me. Especially since I'm sometimes significantly delayed on making a draft/sketch, so I don't want them to have already paid me and wait a long time.

>>2664503
That doesn't help when you're not working for peanuts.

>the knave merely eloped with 200 dubloons that I worked for

The only time asking for full payment upfront is """unethical""" is when YOU, the artist, are an unprofessional manchild that can't work because you're a lazy, unmotivated faggot, in which case you shouldn't be freelancing in the first place.

You want me to draw for you, you're gonna sign a contract, bank the money with a 3rd party or pay up front and you're gonna get your illustration on time, end of discussion.

You don't like it, you can find some kid on DA to bargain with.

>>2664539
>sign a contract

You're already talking on a different level, most people here do not deal with contracts.

What are the typical terms you lay out in a contract, for yourself and the buyer?

>>2664546
>You're already talking on a different level, most people here do not deal with contracts.
Doesn't matter, the point is to ensure you get paid.
Finishing the project on time should be a given, so you have no reason to put yourself at risk.
The average Joe that contacts you won't even be willing to sign a contract, that's only when you work for semi-serious projects, and it's usually done to ensure THE CLIENT doesn't get screwed, not you (copyright mainly, but also discretion).
If you take a job through a platform that protects their freelancers, you're good, because you will get paid.

If you take a job through email or whatever (bottom-of-the-barrel porn commissions included), you ask for money upfront.
Now, if you're hurr durr depressed and have no work ethic, yeah, you probably shouldn't eliminate the only reason to actually finish the job, but then again, you're not fit to work this way in the first place, and sooner or later, clients will start giving you a wide birth and you will go back to living with your disappointed parents and working in burger king because mcdonalds is too good for you.

>What are the typical terms you lay out in a contract, for yourself and the buyer?
IIRC, conceptart.org should have example contracts, and they also have a board for legal matters on the forum, so check there.
Like I said, though, usually you're the one signing a contract designed to protect the client's interests.

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>>2664532
exactly what I do. it's the best way, because this way both the artist and the purchaser take reasonable risks.
I work fairly quick, but I don't like that kind of pressure you get, if you're stuck. once the sketching phase is done, it's really no deal to finish the drawing.

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>>2664498
not anti-semitic or anything, but are you jewish? the way you write/talk has that jewish rythm.

>>2664960
>>2664532

Yeah I drew commissioned porn for years and that's exactly what I did.

Requesting money up front puts unnecessary pressure on both the client and the artist and getting paid after the pic is done is just too risky. Getting paid after the client got a solid sketch is the best.

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Just a little info you fags should know -

Artwork has two major rights to it - material rigths and moral rights. Both belong to the author by default.

Copyright can be sold with the artwork and grants rights to use the work in a book, a banner or other commercial purposes.

The moral rights can't be given away and mean that the author can publish it anonymously or using a pseudonym, choose if he wants to be associated with it and that nobody gets to alter the work in any way (remove a watermark, change colors...).
You can, however, grant the client a right to alter the work, either as he pleases (with an exception of causing harm to the author) or upon consultation, provided you don't misuse this to prevent him from using the work for its original purpose.

It's probably a good idea to have some terms of use along with refund policies in a google doc and link it along with accepting a job offer. It's meant to protect both your and your client's ass.

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>>2658808
>unbiased advice
>/ic/

There's nothing wrong with paying upfront and in fact I advise everyone to get full upfront payment. If you work with paypal you should know that they are incredibly biased toward the client and they will give you your money back if you ask for it. This is specially true for commission work where you aren't sending a physical object. If the client starts a dispute you will lose it unless you can prove you shipped them a product.
I have had people pay me upfront then roll back payment after they receive the work and there really is nothing you can do about it. The risk is just not equal and it's pretty unbalanced against the artist.

I will say though I am not sure if there's a time limit for when you can start a dispute, so as a client you probably want to have the deadline set to sometime before that limit if there is one and just roll back the payment if they fail it instead of sitting on it.

>>2658917
> Assuming you paid her thru paypal, if you sent the money directly to her you can chargeback whenever you want. If she sent an invoice and you paid her thru that, you have to dispute a chargeback.
Only works if they picked the standard option, what if they decided to go with the "send money to friend/family" option?