When is it OK to trace?

>>2508295
Never. Fuck tracing and fuck the retard who made that image.

>>2508295
>needing an aid for a pose this easy let alone tracing

And this faggot still make 1k a week.
I have to rethink my life.

>>2508295

Never, except when you are digitalfag that fell for intuos mene and puts stylus into his ass to get more exposure on furraffinity while dreaming of becoming polish photobasher.

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>>2508305

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>>2508306

>>2508304
Stop projecting.

>>2508306
>tracing
>still fucked up the clavicles
Bravo.

Perhaps it's fine if you use it to study the pose. But who am I kidding, if you can trace it nicely you might as well sell that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDGXoMqKakE

>>2508308

>Stop tracing.

fix'd

I'm currently learning mannequinization, and I'm having a tough time with it. When I look at my reference, I can break the figure down in my mind, but I can't get it to look right when i try to draw it. Is it okay to trace a few references and mannequinize them?

>>2508295
>When is it OK to trace?
As long as you are tracing an image you have the rights to it is acceptable. Many big name people like Rockwell and Struzan have traced. Tracing does not automatically make something look good.

I Honestly don't see the huge problem.
the biggest thing I've learned when it comes to art and artist is that everyone has there own means to an end.
the process itself doesn't matter as much as the end product, and there is no "right" way to draw.
As long and you are satisfied with the end result then that is your "right" way, if not then search for others until you find one that works.
All these people need to stop projecting themselves and forcing methods that don't work and bashing the ones they don't see as correct just because it's not the "traditional" way.

I only traced once when i had to paint on a 2x3 m wood panel. I traced the human figures because my anatomy knowledge was weak and i had to save time. Then, tracing for smaller drawing is just a poor move.

no
rules
only
tools

http://danwarrenart.blogspot.com/2012/01/im-huge-tracist.html

i like doxy, but his anatomy isn't always great and it seems like he struggles with certain poses

doxy's work is great and he feels comfortable tracing. some people think tracing is the end of the world. i'm sure there are some techniques that doxy feels are cheating the artist out of learning, but for him tracing isn't one of them.

let's look at it like this. if its an artist you emulate you should try to emulate them down to every technique. if doxy traces and you want to be like doxy you should learn to trace the way that he does.

a small example but something that I think is relevant here is that I want to emulate some of van Gogh's work. He would do underdrawings in charcoal and up until i found that out i'd been doing it in pencil and having a hard time. once i switched to charcoal it was much easier to utilize the underdrawing. for someone who isn't painting impasto charcoal would be a shitty option because light washes would smudge the charcoal all over the place but if you paint as thick as van gogh did charcoal is perfect.

>>2508327
Of course. Tracing as a form of study can be a great tool for learning, and if done right will likely help you improve faster. Just make sure to analyse and learn from what you trace, combine it with other ways of study, and don't try to pass them off as orginal work.

>>2508295
>>2508305
>>2508306
>>2508307
>when you literally cannot draw from imagination

>>2508306
Why the fuck would you even need a reference for such an easy pose...

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I'm learning how to draw.. so I'm tracing for practice...

is that acceptable? I literally have no idea how to draw. havent don it sense I was a kid

>>2508295
Any time you want, mostly when you're not tracing over other people's work, but if your end result looks totally different from theirs then just do it and dont tell anyone.

Most importantly it all depends on what is your goal. Do you want to be a working professional? Then no one gives a shit how you come up with these pictures as long as you can do it reliably and consistently and of course not infringing on fucking copyright.
If your goal is the pursuit of art for the sake of being good at art then obviously you gain nothing by tracing and you will be a fucking phony if you tell other people you came up with the stuff on your own.

These are completely different goals with different ethics but most posters here are too stupid to know that.

>>2508505
It's not a good way to learn. It's more a method for saving time that people who already know how to draw use.

>this is legit real

And i thought doxy was a competent artist

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how common is this in the industry

I don't see any reason to trace in any situation. Unless you're converting an image to a vector, but that's more /gd/ than /ic/.

Moral reasons aside, tracing will do very little for your actual learning. Copying a reference is good because you actually need to think, and if you don't recreate the construction it'll probably look off. Referencing is great for building your visual library and reinforcing things like proportions and shapes. But tracing is mindless. There's very little problem-solving and it isn't even really drawing at all. If you rely on tracing models like this guy is, you won't be able to stand on your own and draw from imagination. You're limited by the model. Yeah it saves time, but I think being able to draw something you're happy with from imagination is one of the most satisfying things in art. But I guess if you don't mind not actually being able to draw and don't feel guilty by exploiting tools like this, then tracing is okay.

>>2508307
>the shoulders where improved
Jesus, this guy can't even spell, let alone draw.

>>2508530
>tracing is mindless. There's very little problem-solving and it isn't even really drawing at all
Not true. Get a professional to trace an image and get a non-artist to trace the same image. The difference will be enormous between them. Someone who is skilled will know what eliminate or emphasize when tracing. It's the same as drawing.

>being able to draw something you're happy with from imagination is one of the most satisfying things in art
That's fine for you to feel that way yourself, but it is taking a leap to say that is the case for everybody. Not everyone has the same goals and pleasures.

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>>2508505
I think loose tracing like Doxy did is acceptable, if you look you can see he traced even over his tracing, which would give him more artistic freedom. However, I think it best to keep tracing for learning and/or getting though a pose quickly. For best long term results just use pictures and reference. Even Doxy did a short examples tutorial on measuring portraits.

>>2508295

It's always ok to trace, as long as you're not breaking copyright law.

You think I actually *care* about client work? You think I'mg going to break my neck for a few hundred dollars? Heck no. If they're happy, I'm happy, because I get paid. And I'll take any shortcut I can get away with.

Goddess, and I wondered how he makes so many different panel with foreshortening, its just he traces like a bitch...

>>2508529
That pose is from a Pamela Anderson photo.

>>2508305
>>2508306
What is the point of blurring the reference? So you can't see what you are tracing? Then what is the point?

Only if you yourself made the 3D model.

There is an argument to be made that doing it that way won't make you better at drawing from imagination, but it's 100% undeniable that the art completely belongs to you. Tracing somebody else's 3D model is cheating though.

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>>2508529
>>2508655
Ah yes, every single image of a woman squatting is traced from this picture.

>>2508529
well that's a pretty damn common pose but if you want to get really autistic about it, they're not even posing the same way.

When you're good enough to get away with it and fast enough to turn a profit from it.

>>2508667

Pamela Anderson redefined sexy squating as we know it. It's no shame admitting it like it's no shame to reference old masters.

>>2508535
If you're skilled it wouldn't take all that much longer to just copy the reference.

These artists can make all the "muh time saving" excuses that they want, the reason they trace is because the quality would drop if they didn't.
It's not about saving time, it's about maintaining a quality they couldn't otherwise.

Why in the ever loving fuck would you trace that I can do that in less than a minute.

>>2508320
Whenever i see circles and scratchy lines for gestures i kek.

>>2508394
no, you've got it wrong. the artist must enjoy the process, otherwise he would not be creating.
if only the end result mattered, it would be alright to take other artist's work and with a few modifications claim it as your own. if you don't see something wrong with that, i fear for your future.

>>2508295

Tracing is just another tool. Use it when you need to. Disregard moralfags who sit up in their ivory towers and scream "nevr trace evr!"

You know your strengths and weaknesses, so it's up to you to know if you're using it to learn, or as a crutch. Just be aware that if you try and sell work that's mostly traced, good change it'll catch up with you.

>>2508320
I've seen henhouses with less chicken scratch

>>2508495
pretty sure he just did that as an example, when teaching it's better to keep it simple

how dense are you?

>>2508707

>If you're skilled it wouldn't take all that much longer to just copy the reference.

It takes a long time to get exact right proportions through copying, skill has little to do with it, proper measuring just takes time.

>These artists can make all the "muh time saving" excuses that they want, the reason they trace is because the quality would drop if they didn't.

>It's not about saving time, it's about maintaining a quality they couldn't otherwise.

Tracing/3d and photo bashing is going to be almost mandatory for commercial work in the future.

I don't think its the best way to learn but commercially its already extremely prevalent in concept art and Illustration. The amount of time saved especially for heavy perspective work is insane.

I don't necessarily like it, I think I'd rather everything be hand drawn and painted but its clear the way the wind is blowing.

what about tracing your own drawings? i do it sometimes incase a piece is slightly off somewhere. its not plagiaristic but more perfectionist. tell me im wrong.

>>2509160
It's fine. That's what animators do.

i think its okay to trace when you want to do a value study and don't want to bother with the base sketch

we had a project back in high school where we blew up our own pictures on a projector for a value study

As an animator in commercial work, we trace all the fucking time. Mostly out of deadlines. Sometimes clients want a storyboard for their 3 minute advertisement and to save time, we trace shit like the electronic product they want (Since it's gotta be exact and not some generic TV screen), vehicles, maps, christmas trees, really random shit where it's just like "I don't have time to study what an Android phone looks like, I just need one done". Sometimes we'll rotoscope roughs of people bicycling or jogging because they want updates every single day.

Things usually look way different by the time it hits airwaves and most of the tracing is done for client viewing sake more than audience viewing sake. But it is used in the professional world. General audiences really don't care if you traced, because the rendering is still a huge skillset alone that some draftsmen don't really have.

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I think tracing is fine if the original 3D model or the photograph belongs to you. You're not stealing from anybody. In the end, it's just another tool.

It's no different from using pre-recorded instruments when doing music, building a website on Wordpress, creating a game using Unity and list goes on. Tools like these make it easier for people to express themselves and in some cases, make it possible for people who wouldn't have the chance otherwise.

As you get older you realize you don't have to know fucking everything and be expert in every field, it's okay.

https://youtu.be/JGRdfPp65eg?t=3

>>2509475
Not surprising how shit tier western animation is then.

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>>2508304
Love and hate you for this because that pretty much sums up every furaffinity, or perhaps certain DeviantART artists, who draw like stills from animations. Don't know the particular style but they also do that with dogs, dinosaurs etc.
Pic related, what's is up with this style?

>>2509527

well my dear, eastern animation trace pretty much all of their backgrounds, and nowadays almost all cars and similar moving stuff is cgi

there is nopoint to learn a specifics products details just to draw it out of memory.

Which is better/faster/easier to use? Daz3d or Design Doll?

>>2509539
>there is nopoint to learn a specifics products details just to draw it out of memory.
I think the point is things look better when actually drawn out rather than rotoscoped or done in 3d. At least I prefer it. If you watch new anime vs older ones the cars in the new ones are so obviously 3d and don't have the same feel to them. It comes across much more sterile and stands out to me. But I can understand it is way faster and cheaper and requires less skill, and most people don't care or notice.

>>2509528
lol awww sad dino

>>2509571
https://youtu.be/7X2m2WueNcU?t=45s

Regarding to commercial though, there is no point in perfecting how to draw a Coke bottle vs. just tracing it. Go to the time stamp there, it's clearly a traced, overly detailed Coke bottle that is a single drawing and follows a rail line with no dimension or depth changes in shape. Why? Cause Coke is paying these people to advertise their product and want that logo in view at all times during these few seconds. If you watch the bottle, it actually looks a little "weird" but they don't give a shit. In the end, it's just an ad.

>>2509607

Not when you're actually producing something, then everything goes, but for practice it's extremely important to build your visual library. All good draftsmen can draw a ton of different things from imagination.

>>2509609
But the thing is, this isn't Disney or a company that cares about that sort of thing. The draftsmen behind most commercial products like this, even really cool animated pieces, the business men don't care about your draftsmen skills so much as your visual style, render ability, and ability to deliver the work they want. If someone asks for a person doing the Carlton dance and they expect roughs in a couple of days, you better rotoscope to meet those demands.

Anyone who thinks this is unacceptable or something has obviously never been in an industry with tight ass deadlines.

Concept artists often paint over 3D renders to speed up designing props. It's fine as long as you got legit utilitarian reason in mind.

It's different story when you're just a amateur shitter tracing to mask your lack of knowledge. Then you're just lying to yourself.

Is it ok to trace when you're having trouble with a pose to get it?
Say like you trace it or just break it down and then try drawing it on your own?

>>2511020

Whenever I had trouble with something, my teachers made me trace it, then freehand it, but still referencing. Forces you to use what you learned tracing.

Tracing wouldn't be such a big deal if people actually admitted when they do it. Instead, they'd rather lead people on because honesty devalues their work.

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>>2508295
I think tracing is fine when you want to refine a sketch you did. And I think its crucial for new artists to learn how to do lines and gain control.

>>2511274

Be nice if when people did reveal what portions are traced, self-righteous cunts who've never worked a day in the industry didn't start hooting like twats.

Even just looking up at some of the pretentious responses in this very thread, I don't blame people for keeping it under their hats.

>>2509527
Nigga even Ghibli studio used rotoscope

>>2508295
deadlines

>>2511527
You the ad guy? There's a difference between "I drew this" and "I made this." Figure art and random objects in a commercial aren't really comparable. No need to get so defensive.

>>2511548

Ad guy? Don't know who that is, so no.

"Instead, they'd rather lead people on because honesty devalues their work."

That statement implied any tracing automatically devalued to piece; that it comes from the artist's desire to swindle their audience, monetary or otherwise.

I say it's just as much from people having a sanctimonious view on what's considered "cheating". Far as defensive, you can call it what you like. Calling out twatery where I see it.

>>2511647
Once you trace it's no longer fully your work. Why should your audience be as impressed by that? Tracers keep mum because they don't want to miss out on asspats they don't deserve.

>>2508295
>tracing
>patreon
>tutorials

Oh fuck off.

>>2508304
preach it senpai

>>2508306
digital '''''artists''''' everyone

>>2513914
The art of deceiving.

There is no difference between referencing and tracing if you aren't ripping off another artist. If you're taking photos of your self, a model you hired or using 3D models you are not plagiarizing anyone.

What you should be worried about is plagiarizing, not tracing/referencing.

Tracing can be helpful to understand rhythm lines and anatomy etc.

>>2514781
At the cost of no problem solving stimulation and experience.

>>2515903

Not if you do it in addition to regular studies.Doesn't have to be one way or the other, do both. It has to be done very purposefully though. Tracing can be a great way to reinforce your studies and engrain anatomy stuff into your visual library.

>>2515903
Hmm? I Meant for study purposes. It's easier to understand anatomy for example when you additionally trace the muscles etc. Also great to understand the rhythms used by masters. Though it has no application outside of study.

>>2515961
just say écorché study, sounds nifty and you don't get these shitters on your case

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>>2508295
>When is it OK

All the time

>>2515969
kekd

>>2508295
Why is tracing even considered bad anyway?

>>2516119
It's considered bad when people make money with it and/or act like they actually have the skills to create what they did. It's straight up unethical and pathetic. Tracing takes no skill unless you want a skill in deceiving people into thinking you're worth anything.

>>2516124
Then why do almost all tracers suck? If it was such an easy skill why don't more people trace? I've seen people trace, most of the time they're pretty shit tier.

To be honest I think it's about laziness. Most artist that trace and don't suck mostly know what they're doing. They're just too lazy to spend the time and effort thinking out things.

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>>2508295
Van Gogh made use of compositional grids until he grew out of them. You can call that tracing if you like.

I just got a Compose-It Grid, see pic related. A 3:4 Ratio is scaled up to a 9x12" sketchbook, and a canvas...

>just ignore the distortion of the charcoal lines on this canvas

>>2516769
Their tracing sucks because they don't know what they're tracing. That's why. If you have to trace to get anything done and claim it your own, you most probably can't draw. People who can draw won't trace nor do they need to. So the ones youll see are all done by shitty drawers.

>>2516918
And, yes, IF a person who knows okayish how to draw, they do it to a) steal ideas b) pretend theyre better than they are

I don't think it's a problem to trace art if it's your own art, and I also don't see a problem tracing from photos if you took the photo. I don't really have a "moral" issue one way or the other, but I do wonder how copyright works in cases where Artist A is tracing from Photographer B, whose photos were commissioned in the first place by Client C.

Since 1400s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbFZIpNK10

>>2508295
Just permission or give credit if it's a free stock, Also old masters use a method called "cartoons transfer process" where they reused the poses from a cartoons and tracing it on the canvas using an intermediary paper blackened with charcoal (old school tracing) They do this mainly to speed up their workflow. Most cartoons are inherit by the apprentices or sometimes bought by other workshops if the original artist dies, sometime it's stolen.

https://youtu.be/46_wiOboDk4

>>2508295

When you're learning line wight.

that shit is 60% muscle memory.

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>doing design course
>get told to cheat as much as possible on my first day in class
>come on /ic/
>bunch of jobless shitters tell people to do things the hard way

>>2509527

>what is off-pegs tracing
>what is model sheet tracing
>what are a few of most important things in getting Japanese cartoons done on time

>>2508667
Where's her ass?

>>2508295
tracing is legal, if is paid.

>>2508295
Not sure if the people hating on this even realize what the purpose of making it was.
Gotta keep creating content for his fans, no matter how wrong it is. And he has a lot of level 0 artist fans that could benefit somewhat.

His picarto is nice though.

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>>2516119
It turns you into Nick Simmons

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When you're first preparing your composition, it doesn't hurt to trace from life. You can take it from there to a sketchbook, or to canvas.

Good tools deserve to be used.

anything's ok if you can grasp the fundies

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>>2508297
Yeah and you should never use reference either. Or look at things. That would all be cheating!

>>2518394
>calling people jobless shitters when you don't have a job
>design course
you're a failure

>>2518394
>design course

>>2524139

What's wrong with taking a design course you parrot?

>>2517168
Hockey is a talentless bitch though and not every artist during and after the period used those things.

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>>2521840
>equating use of references to tracing

When whatever you're tracing is also something that you made yourself, if you made a 3D model with the purpose of tracing it for an illustration then you put in all the work.

If you trace someone else's work then you're bad, unless you're just tracing to learn and not to pass it off as your own

>>2508659
It's so you can't see the lines and shapes as strong, so you use more of your skills/style to fill in the blanks instead of just straight up tracing.

I vaguely trace people's faces when I do portraits, just a faint outline as a guide. Then do all the shading and details without it.

Using pencils as in. I don't trace for digital art unless its something very specific and complicated like a weapon or armor piece. It just saves time and adds to accuracy. Don't see why it's a bad thing for those cases.

>>2508295
Industrial designers do it.

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>>2521840
I see posts like this all the time on /ic/ and I feel like a lot of you guys have no idea how to properly use reference. If you're copying a pose in a photo, you aren't referencing. When you put down the gesture for a pose, you're supposed to do it from your own mind, and then when something is confusing you in the pose that you made up, you look up references and you check it.

Swear to god half you retards are just dressing up mediocre studies and saying its okay because you're 'just referencing it'

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>>2525053
explain this then

if you're doing it for learning purposes then i think it's fine. if you're tracing so you can show others your work and claim you did it based on skill then it's lame
if you tell others you traced then it's also alright as well because you're not being deceptive

>>2525062

It's not an exact copy. Also Rockwell took extreme measure to set up those models to pose for HIM. The entire piece was designed before the photoshoot, and then some more after.

>>2525062
if you think this is a photo copy you need to learn how to read posture and weight. The poses in the painting are entirely his own. This isn't a random photo either, its directed by the artist to shape an idea he had.

>>2524163
you're wasting your money and you will realize it after you graduate.

>>2525062
cop in the painting is built like a tank wtf

>>2525140
deadlifts and pulls

>>2525095
getting your associates degree at least is better than no degree

besides the government pays me to go to school so I waste nobodies money but the tax payers

>>2524765
I have trouble with digital inking. Should I use this method?

>>2525140
He got swole from upholding the law.