I Envy Writers

nope

I wouldn't consider myself a skilled writer compared to many, but it's a very different sensation to draw something than write about it.

To frame my own experience, most of my experience with writing and storybuilding was DMing tabletop RPGs online. There was tons of writing and worldbuilding involved, though. Yet as vividly detailed as I could make it, I constantly lamented that I couldn't create a good visual representation. It's part of why I started getting into art.

The grass is always greener, I suppose. But there's a reason the likes of Tolkien also dabbled in art.

>>2321385
Your pretty much like me

>>2321353
but OP, if you care for writing so much, why don't you write yourself.

A good writer creates images in spite of, not because of, a lack of visuals. Visual arts existed for thousands, if not millions of years before writing, so that should let you know about where humanity's ranked in terms of importance.

nup, writers are trying their best to conjure up visual images, sound etc through their print but you can't beat doing the real thing, obviously. Writers are trying to ultimately overcome the limitations of written language, when they write well. That's why it goes on and on and on...A picture is worth one thousand words, after all.

Art goes deeper than splitting it up into genres or mediums. also:

written text = spoken language

good writer = good speaker

thus

written text < spoken language, anyway.

don't envy writers, anyone can write, envy people who are good speakers. They often write books.

But yeah, painting is like photography and writing in one ball to put it in ways i think you'd understand.

>>2321401
>anyone can write

Anyone can draw, too. Not anyone can write well.
I can get immersed in a good book more than I can get immersed in a good painting, but they're different sorts of immersion. Neither one can completely replace the other. The people I envy are the people who can do both.
What I hope is one day to illustrate my own writing. Asking another person to illustrate your writing will always mean compromising your vision with theirs. Illustrating your own is ideal.

>>2321407

you need this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_art

not sure if you differenciate poetry from novels or what but god help you and your opinions my friend.

>>2321451

I don't know if you expect a wikipedia article on art history to prove your point for you, but I still disagree with your opinion and it might surprise you, but your opinion isn't a fact.

>>2321407
>anyone can draw
yes, but like writing it is a skill. Everyone can draw and write, but not well, and even fewer have mastered the craft.

>>2321353
Writing and painting are different aspect of communication. Books can be as fleeting as art can be, and art can be as powerful as writing. To compare one to another is unfair to both mediums.

>>2321480
>yes, but like writing it is a skill. Everyone can draw and write, but not well, and even fewer have mastered the craft.

That was my point, I was just making the comparison to art for emphasis. Anyone can do either, but both require proficiency to do well.

>>2321353
Not trying to be condescending but you can do and mix both too, you know.

Comics, manga, light novels, story image books or whatever you want to call them. All of those have both drawings and stories. I should also add video games considering those were my first inspiration. It takes both to make a great RPG.

And I don't want a random anon quoting me and trying to argue that everything created under those labels is shit. It's not true, those are perfectly valid and great mediums with infinite potential as long as you do not limit yourself to petty limitations such as "my chapter must be that long" or "I should do this or that to pander to x group of person".

>>2321353
>>2321491
I forgot visual novels, too. Those are a very good example, it's a great medium, which is sadly too often misused, but still a great medium with tremendous potential.

>>2321353
Writing is a skill that can be acquired. The only reason you're a shit writer is because you don't allow yourself to explore it enough. For someone who reveres it so much, to not allow yourself to indulge in writing seems like the product of fear of failure, or lack of commitment.

>>2321488
Sorry engrish is not my first language so I kindof missed the point at first

>>2321353
I have written a lot in my day and I would say that I'm an okay writer as I find writing and language easy. I'm shit tier at drawing though and find it very difficult but I envy artist much more then any writer.

>>2321594
>I envy artist much more then any writer
because you can't draw? or..?

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>>2321353
That's funny, because I envy the dead.

>>2321353
I too envy writers. Here I needing to spend hundreds on paint or a tablet meanwhile all they need is google docs and they're good to go.

>>2321609
Here I am* Fuck.
Also needing to spend days on one painting vs needing one afternoon to write something that conveys so much more. And yet I still draw.

>>2321493
>I forgot visual novels, too
It's pretty understandable why it's so rare that someone who isn't a mentally handicapped otaku considers writing visual novels. The most obvious problem is that in order to make a visual novel by yourself you need to be a skilled programmer, a skilled visual artist, a skilled composer and a skilled writer. I don't think there's a lot of people who have mastered more than two of those categories, and those who have are more likely to shy away from the medium because they don't want to be associated with what it stands for. I mean, here you have a medium that allows you to blend the structure of plays and novels seemlessly together, a medium that lets you to incorporate meaningful choices into your story to a similar, or even greater degree than videogames, and what do the Japanese do with them? They shove out dating simulators like there's no tomorrow. Of course noone in their right mind would write a literary visual novel. The audience you'd like to write for wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole, and the people who'd be willing to play it wouldn't give a shit about it because it doesn't let them pretend to date cute girls.

>>2321755
Dude you have no idea what you're talking about, and you're generalizing an entire genre by comparing it to a very niche set of products.

>>2321908
Dude, I've read vns that aren't dating sims, and some of them were pretty good, but you're either ignorant or just flat-out lying if you're honestly trying to make people believe that the cookiecutter dating sim garbage that serves as the backbone for the vast majority of vns out there is only 'a niche set of products'.

>>2321353
okay hers a tip for you all
>i want to write
START WRITING
>i want to draw/paint
START DRAWING/PAINTING
>i want to do both
DO BOTH

>>2321755
>skilled programmer
nope, nowadays you can find guides and such to make one, this really isn't hard, worst case scenario you ask someone to lend you a hand. Everyone and their neighbors can get into programming something as easy as a VN.
>a skilled visual artist
>a skilled writer
Those two are easy as hell.
>a skilled composer
You can learn how to make music in a couple of months thanks to music programs.

VNs are the best medium out there.

I started writing this year. I'm really bad at it so it feels like learning to draw all over again. It's hell. But I like to believe that since I did this hell once, I can do it again.

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>>2321353
I actually think the poem in your pic is not so good, its actually the photograph of the sculpture (two different types of visual arts working in tandem) which really creates most of the impact in that picture. I also don't agree with anything you said in your post. Anyway. I'm a poet and a painter, and really there's no reason you can't do both. My mindset is totally different when I write than when I paint, but the end feeling of accomplishment and satisfaction with my creation is exactly the same. It's pretty cool to note the differing mental states when you're doing one or another. Try it sometime.

>>2321755
>>2321962
You could also, you know, work in a team. Grab just one other person you know you collaborate well with and split the work.

>>2321755
>Of course noone in their right mind would write a literary visual novel

That's because most people who are in their "right mind" don't want to risk anything. They want to walk the paths that have been walked countless times before them, it's the smart and safe thing to do, but because of that, they will never do anything special.

It always takes fearless people who look like they are out of their mind to innovate. Some day, maybe someone will do an incredible visual novel, completely different from what you'd expect from that medium. It will reach a completely different audience, hell, maybe it creates an audience that didn't even exist before. Then more and more artists would try to do the same thing and if more success stories start floating around, that's when the people in their right mind will finally start seeing the potential and chase the success of those that were fearless enough to walk an unknown path before them.

Emotions and cognisance in general exist in a 100% abstract form. Explaining yourself through language, no matter your eloquence, requires you to simplify and diminish your thoughts and ideas.

The advantage of visual art (though perhaps less effective than music) has always been it's ability to communicate the abstract (imo the true) nature of consciousness. Art at it's best, has to do with these "pure" forms of communication, where it seeks neither to convince nor condition.

>>2321962
I agree that it's a great medium, and that programming isn't as big of a deal as it used to be, but if you think writing and drawing are easy as hell you are either some kind of genius or talking out of your ass.

>>2321966
You're right, we need people who are willing to go against conventions and take risks. If you want to be that person though, be prepared not to be taken seriously for the rest of your life because you made a name for yourself using a medium that people didn't take seriously at the time, and only get the recognition you deserve after you've died. The moment you've established yourself as 'someone who writes weird (as in, different from what general audiences are used to) stories in a japanese dating sim format' normies will never admit to liking anything you're responsible for because they're afraid that will make their friends think they're weird as well. Welcome to the age of conformity.

>>2321988
Most normies would probably not even be aware of the japanese VN market and the kind of products that are associated with the medium. If someone made a VN with great art and writing and got it on Steam, most people would probably look at it fairly open minded. I mean, just look at how choice based adventure games are currently really popular. Video game elitists like to call those games "interactive movies" as a depreciatory term, but slowly and steadly they are becoming their own thing and are appreciated by their own fanbase as yet another unique means of telling a story.

>>2322016
Keep in mind that choice based adventure games weren't a big cultural phenomenon. Elitists always find something to complain about, but most people didn't have preconceptions about it because they were only vaguely aware of its existence. On the other hand anime is well established as being 'weird japanese porn with big-eyed schoolgirls' (at least as far as the normies I know are concerned) at this point. It might simply have something to do with the fact that everyone watches porn, and inevitably runs into hentai sooner or later, and the shows that were imported into the western world probably helped to reinforce the idea that it's something shameful, something no adult should admit to liking as well.

Don't let that stop you though. I've been writing plays for a while, and I've been thinking about adapting a few of them in a vn format. If you don't care about public opinion you can do whatever you feel like.

>>2321965
You're right, but personally, aside from the programming part, I wouldn't want anyone else to work on anything artistic with me. It'd automatically become less personal, or ruined, I don't know.

For the fun why not, for a serious work? hell no.

>>2321353
Last NaNoWriMo I wrote a book from the perspective of an artist who calls writing a shitty artform in general because it's not as precise as drawing and painting and leaves too much to the imagination. :^)

>>2322109
That must be true then.

>>2322172
Ehh, I don't know. But what I learned from Linuguistics is that there's definitely a messenger-receiver problem when it comes to language. You're basically dependent on a message pressed through a bottleneck. Not everyone connects the same things with certain words. With pictures I think it's a little less important what someone connects with shapes and colors, though.

>>2322179
As someone who is studying linguistics as well I'd argue the opposite. Aesthetics are visual languages, and the problem of misinterpretation is much more pronounced when it comes to visual communication than it is with words. Sure, if I describe a character everyone will see their own version what they believe that character ought to look like in their minds, while if I draw them everyone will see the 'same' image, but that doesn't mean that the feeling they get from looking at the image would be the same. One person would associate visuals with different things than another, and connect different ideas to them. Text gives you control over how you connect ideas with eachother, which is why it has the power to get the essence of a thing across much better than visuals do.

>>2321595
Because drawing is a much more appealing medium when it comes conveying emotion, I would rather look at a page with doodles then read a one page short story. The only thing better with writing is that it's faster to produce so an artist can spend hours on a painting while a writer can write a couple of pages or a short story in that time.

>>2321353
Why not just find a happy medium with comic books?

>>2322500

I often wonder if you people are retarded.

Comic Books are a fucking terrible medium with shit-tier writing. Please go and stay go.

>>2321934
But i'm shit at writing and i only draw because i'm good at it but i don't enjoy it i feel worthless

>>2322519
>Comic Books are a fucking terrible medium with shit-tier writing.

but it's not the medium responsible for the shitty stories which get's put in

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>>2322519
I feel bad for you

>>2322519
>Please go and stay go

Please educate yourself about the genre, and stay woke.

>>2321353

Writing is just as hard as drawing.

As someone who excels with poetry and writing in general and probably reads 8 hours a day on average... it takes just as much work as becoming a great artist takes. If you haven't read essentially all of the great and minor english poets, all the great novelists since 1800, reread the greats over and over with extensive notes, dissecting poetry word by word (a good estimate of a healthy "study" exercise might be 3 hours per 20 lines of Donne's poetry if you have a good eye) then you really have little shot at writing anything important or original (and by original, I mean in the sense that you have the capability of interacting with and commenting on previous works in the vague "canon").

It's no different than a great artist sitting down and picking apart Millais or Michelangelo. You sit down and pick apart Shakespeare and Melville and Donne instead.

> I absolutely envy them.

I envy you guys who can draw well. At this point I'm only drawing so I can understand the human figure better, and hoping it'll transfer into some skill with camerawork in my film/drama ambitions.

>>2321964

didn't even notice the poem in the OP. Hardly a poem. Looks like garbage you see on reddit's OC Poetry sub or /lit/ critique threads. I wouldn't even call it poetry.

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Where would a writer go to get non aggressive feedback?
I write sci-fi and can't no one tell me if its bad or tremendous or what.
I write good as you can probably already tell.
And my spelling is excellent.

>>2322519
Indeed it is a flawed medium, and most definitely has a lot of bad writing just like there's a lot of bad literature. But that doesn't mean the medium itself is the cause of the bad writing. If you feel so strongly for it why not make something with good writing yourself?

>>2324931
You know /lit/ exists right?

>>2322519
Nah, you are the one who is retarded. Comic books are sequential art + writing. The quality of both depends entirely on you and has nothing whatsoever to do with the medium. A great writer won't magically lose his ability to write because he decides to do a comic, you dumb shit.

>>2324931
>Where would a writer go to get non aggressive feedback?

not from the living. You read Shakespeare or some other canonical great, you compare his writing to yours, and you realize you're trash and figure out how to improve. You never ask from the living.

>>2324935
Not that anon. Have you ever been on /lit/? It's a fucking joke. American college students swinging their dicks about how many times they've read Blood Meridian. The writing threads are 95% utter trash, and what few people there are that have ever sold a damn thing are generally shunned or ignored.

>>2324964
>Bood Meridian
I'm wondering if you've ever been there yourself. Just because there's a thread about it now doesn't mean it's constantly talked about. I've seen it less than 3 times in the past 4 months. No one is discussing it.
Of course they're trash. It's the equivalent to the drawing threads on /ic/. What's your point?

>>2324935
I do but the literature thing.
>>2324942
Thank you, that's real and useful advice. I'm reading Kafka but I haven't thought of comparing structure etc. Thanks anon!

>>2324975
>Thanks anon!

no problem, it's an easy trap to ask the living for writing advice. I'm a wannabe poet and I can say pretty firmly that there is no one alive I think I can learn the craft from, and I'm not even that great yet. Though that's partially because of what MFAs have done to the whole "Creative writing" "field" and turned it into a profession. It's disgusting

So I just hang out at the library and pick through poets I like who are so long dead their bones are probably rotten.

>>2321963
Post work (visual I mean)

>>2321965
>find someone you work well with

That's like saying find a girlfriend you match well with. Not easy on any level.

>>2321988
>if you want to be that person

You know you can put art under anonymous or even under a fake name right?

>>2322519
I know you've been roasted enough without replying to anyone

But "shit-tier writing" depends on a "shit tier writer"

The popular formats for comic books can be repetitive and annoying just like pop music.

What you said is like saying that music sucks because of shit-tier lyrics and beats. It all depends what the you are listening to.

>>2324987
That's good advice, I know nothing about writing as a profession and I'm happy to keep it like that. I like to read sci-fi so that influences the style and content (obv). Again thanks, there's a lot of frustration in the world and it can manifest as dickdom. Not today!

>>2324987
I agree that it's a good idea to focus your learning process on imitating poets and writers you admire but at some point you need discourse to find out about the blindspots in your own vision. Not sure if this is true for America, but I've found that the philosophy professors and even students at my university tend to have better insights into aesthetics and meaning in language than linguists and people teaching creative writing do. Also they're generally more willing to be 100% honest and capable of pinpointing where the problems in a text lie.