So you have open new thread, posted animation some other guy did just for the sake of discussion? Looks like you are trapped by /ic. i'm sure you are one of those who just admire others and don't draw by themself
>>1910668 >>1910695 >>1910732 how does /ic/ reckon this guy got good? rigorous drawing, with little/no aid of fundamentals? or an academic approach from lifedrawing to stylisation? its in my understanding that the latter is not common in japanese artists (but im not sure if their animators also fall in the same bracket).
Im just extremely impressed by animation like this, or any animation really; it just shows a higher level of understanding and consistency of 3d forms than illustrations (where you can compensate the lack of fundamentals with complicated photoshop effects).
What does this even mean? He clearly has strong fundamentals, knows how to draw the human figure and knows perspective. you can't get good without understanding the fundamentals. They are what make your art good in the first place.
>>1910776 This guy sure knows his fundamentals, but i'm not sure if he's actually doing lifedrawing to improve his draftsmanship, they usually just invent a mannequin figure that they could turn around inside their head and just basing everything from there (of course sometimes they need to reference from real life).
Also to some extent, they're copying what they see on-screen, if you're watching Shirobako (that anime about making anime), one of the key animator is actually learning by copying genga. Hideaki Anno also has said that he usually copy explosion footage that he saw on television (that was around the 70s).
Toshiyuki Inoue also ever mentioned that the younger animator should just better learn/observe from the already well-known animator, since it took a long time for them to develop it, it'll be a waste of time to be struggling with the basic again.
From a purely drawing perspective, traditional animators tend to have better fundamentals than other fields of art. This is especially true of the Japanese who manipulate more detailed shapes with complex cinematography, and don't often rotoscope no matter what that one idiot says about Jin Roh.
As for art education, Japanese public schools teach academic methods, and spend a larger portion of school hours on arts and humanities in general when compared to the U.S.. However, at a certain point, schools begin to push forward the students that show "talent" for art, and steer others away. The real art education mangaka receive are from their afterschool art clubs and doujinshi circles, where like-minded students study and push each other and learn through self-publishing.
Manga and anime have constraints both technical and financial that reward a certain homogeny in design, but they are not the entirety of the Japanese art scene. To draw any greater conclusion from that alone is narrow-minded at best, and at worst some passive-aggressive attempt to fit them into the Western narrative about Asians as uncreative drones, even while we've been appropriating design cues from them for centuries.
>>1910820 lack of interest with realism eventhough they're able to do it.
Also, asians, it could be from south-east or east-asia, grow up exposed to the japanese media such as manga and anime more than you know. It's no wonder that they tend to have greater affection towards it.
>>1910799 By fundamentals, i mean isolating different primitive exercises that would otherwise collate to a high level of understanding of forms. i.e. drawing boxes in perspective, rendering spheres, learning anatomy by breaking it down to simple cylinders and boxes etc.
but anyone could very easily reach the same high level of understanding of forms by trial and error, which is what I implied. I meant that he could have learned from books that are derivative from fundamentals. i.e. scarcely learning anatomy and landmarks from 'how to draw manga' books and learning applied perspective and drapery from pose books (or something similar to these resources, the idea is that they dont hoard books of vilppu/scott-robertson quality)
instead of learning how to draw from primitive elements, he could have learned from drawing a fully clothed figure many times over; learning the fundamentals by trial and error. I dont understand what Im saying myself, but I think theres a distinction between these two methods of learning.
You don't see boxing of the figure here? You don't see simplification to primitives?
Look, there isn't some mystical Eastern secret technique here. They obviously construct, they obviously observe as well. They just have a different set of priorities and place a greater premium on certain skills.
>>1910837 I think they draw mannequins early on until they're able to pull that off just from imagination. from that point they could just add anatomy to make things looks more believable to a certain extent.
>>1910840 Where the hell did i imply that mango is high tier art? Maybe i poorly wrote my previous post but there's not even a slightest implication of that matter.
>>1910843 I was challenging the method of learning- not the final result. Obviously when it comes to animating, they will simplify the figure regardless of the learning method.
My point was, that this simplification could be stemmed from 1. learning to construct the figure from boxes (by academically learning how to describe the figure with simple forms) or 2. learning to deconstruct the figure to boxes (by initially learning to draw the clothed figure by rigorous trial and error and simplifying it)
However, Ill withdraw my point here because there is probably no distinction between them and admittedly, I know im only desperately looking for a way to get good quickly.
>I'm reposting this question here since I might get more pertinent information.
Alright I just started >>1901205 year long fundamentals plan last week. I'm up to the part where they're mirroring planes in Scott's book. I used to actively avoid perspective, but figuring it out has made me enthusiastic about mastering it.
I guess my goal is to get into story art, Vis-Dev would be cool but I'm leaning toward Layout artist or storyboarder since I feel as thought I'm not that great of a "Blue Sky" designer, but would like to direct a story.
Maybe animation as well, but that's a third on my list.
What kind of skill set would I need to pursue these goals?
>>1910776 this guy is only decent at drawing, his expertise/talent is in seeing timing or animation. Of course he can focus drawing, but it's clear he has an affinity for animation, seeing things move and timing them properly.
>>1910776 I've seen animators sketchbooks and life-drawings and I think in terms of fundamentals they're the most strong out of all the arts. It's all intuition. They can feel out how an object can rotate in space or move in perspective naturally.
>>1911128 Fuck I hate bahi. Mainly because he is overrated as shit. He gets insane amounts of praise without actually having that much professional work to show off, and the stuff he has done is not even impressive, it's almost ugly I'd say.
>>1911178 >without actually having that much professional work to show off
he's still relatively new. I believe he got hired around 2009
>and the stuff he has done is not even impressive I fully disagree. His key frames are some of the best I've seen. Very full of life considering he only does the key frames. If it had proper inbetweens then it'd probably blow my mind.
> it's almost ugly Some people like slow and realistic animation. Some like extremely exaggerated. I dont think its ugly at all
>>1911184 I like exaggerated animation as well, but he doesn't do exaggerated and fast animation well at all. I don't like how he smears, it's ugly and often completely unnecessary to convey the motion. I don't like how his characters bounce around so much, they look like their bones were replaced with jelly. They also twitch a lot. I don't like how inconsistent his drawings are, his shapes and forms look very inconsistent to me.
To me it looks like Bahi lacks all the basic skills and knowledge that an animator should have. You know, shit that you learn if you actually went to an animation school instead of learning to animate by watching anime sakugas on youtube and copying those.
Lets take some other animator as an example. How about Yoh Yoshinari? He is also someone who often does very fast paced scenes, but the difference between him and Bahi is that his drawings are consistent and the movement looks smooth.
>he's still relatively new. >I believe he got hired around 2009 and that's probably why he is so overrated. Every weeaboo lost their shit when a non-japanese animator was making himself a name in the industry. "living the dream" like people say. People who know shit about animation praise him because he is the only animator they actually know of.
>>1911367 >surely it has to be over 50k Only a chief animation director makes that much.
Average key animator makes around 20k a year. They get paid 4000 yen for a cut. Bahi animated less than 30 cuts in Space Dandy. Do the math. source: http://www.janica.jp/survey/2009symposium_rundown.pdf
>>1911378 >http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interview/2014-04-16/the-space-dandy/part-ii-bahi-jd Wow, i don't know that he got this much attention even from ANN. I guess that's why weebs are wet all over him.
>>1911376 What is an "Animator"? Are they not the ones doing the key frames..or you know, the actual bulk of the work? 9,400 is lower than fucking working at walmart. How can a professional job that requires such skill be so shitty?
I'm guessing the college student is an intern doing animation?
What is Part-timer then?
The rest seem about right. CG animator is basically minimum wage still though
Bahi did an AMA on an IRC channel in August. I'll post some of his answers that are related to the thread.
<g***> Can you even stay in Japan as a freelance animator <(Bahi)> g*** Yes, there is also a system where you can be a freelancer with similar contract to employees. <g***> Interesting <(Bahi)> But freelancing is hard in japan, but that's not news. <k****> do you earn enough to sustain yourself? <(Bahi)> Let's say, it's not easy. <(Bahi)> but I don't mind, I think it's alright when you are young. <(Bahi)> it's probably harder for older animators that are in their 30s, 40s. <(Bahi)> this is young animator life. <(Bahi)> I mean for older animators that want to get married and have a family, it's better to be an employee.
<g***> What will you do if you can't get any work for a while <g***> Do you have another way of getting income <(Bahi)> Do personal work, which I really would like to do too. <g***> Or savings? <(Bahi)> And do illustrations. <g***> Ah, I guess you can always get some money as an artist <(Bahi)> But there is always work though.
<C******> how do you actually get to work on a project tho <C******> do you approach a producer <C******> or does one approach you <(Bahi)> It's automatic <(Bahi)> when you do your first work, things just come on their own. <H*******> Automatic? <(Bahi)> Producers know all animators <(Bahi)> as soon as a new name pops up, they will check it out. <l**> what would it take for a foreign animator to get checked out by japanese producers <(Bahi)> First you have to approach on your own. <H*******> So, you contact the studios, begging for work? <(Bahi)> But not "begging" though
>>1911523 >How do you know? Do you even read this fucking goddamn thread? How long have you been on animation thread? This has been discussed over and over again since 2 months ago. >Are you a pro? No, i aim to be one, but the Pros who've been in the industry have mentioned that.
Bahi is overrated, people who've been sucking his dick is just either muh entry-level 17-18 yo sakuga enthusiast who barely draw shit and browse /a/ all the time, their eyes aren't good enough to judge shit and consider boing-boing high-speed jell-o bones sakuga action is godly as fuck.
>>1911529 actually, the only kind of people who always try to convince others how bad someone else is are jelly little noobs like you. I have never seen a good professional do that kind of thing, not in animation or any other artform. A good artist will say "The guy is pretty good at that boing-boing high-speed stuff, maybe I could even learn a thing or two from that!"
a shit tier amateur such as yourself will say: "HURRR HE SUCKS STOP LIKING THIS GUY'S WORK, ALL THE PROS HATE HIM" And that is reason 12342345 why you will never make it.
>>1911551 >And are the posters in the thread "pro"? >Source? Like i said, read the thread carefully and check the links that were given in this thread. Your lack of attention is just evidence that you only came here to shitpost.
>With that attitude, you'll never be one. Like those words matter to me.
>>1911603 That professional blurted out "Who's that animator from austria again? Bahi? yes, Bahi, He's not really that good".
Listen, if you've been here from the last few threads you must've knew that keyword "Bahi" always ends up derailing the thread, previous thread as i recall was a good one since his dicksucking ends early.
Does posting "all i ever love about anime, is Bahi JD yoyoyo" "How could i be good as him" "i'm surprised you could still maintain your sanity after making that animating a scene like that" "17 years fucking old Bahi ladies and gentlemen, 17 years fucking old! there's no hope for me to work as animator" counts? you could just at least create a new thread just to worship him. /ic/ did that with Jaime Jones, Mullins, and any other artists. or ffs just create a thread to worship some animators in general.
or my advice, make that thread on /a/ since no one will get mad if you create that thread over there, in fact, you will meet more like-minded people that also fascinated by his prodigious talent, there'll also a little chance for you to meet people that consider him as overrated and went vocal about it.
>>1911695 >>1911683 Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they praise him? http://a.pomf.se/flpsmc.mp3
>>There's an Iranian guy or something who... >Aya: Bahi >>Where's he base? >Aya: He's in Austria >>He works digitally and he works for Japan, right? >Aya: Yeah >>They'd think he's..... (not sure what he said here) >Aya: I mean, a lot of studio has started accept it >>I guess as you said they're looking for people, they need people so >Aya: Yes, and he's good. Let's face it, he's brilliant so... >>Yes he's amazing >Aya: It's a cost that studios will be willing to pay for if they can provide the work.
>>1911683 I know this has been the problem from the past couple of threads.
The way to stop shitposting is just by simply contributing your content to thread, anon. It'll eventually dry out and we'll have a decent conversation here. I think that's why we can have a pretty decent discussion in the previous thread.
Or just filter that word, works like a charm for me.
If I ever... EVER saw your face, I'd slap you. Learn what animation means before you talk. Learn what rotoscoping means before you fucking talk. Learn what referening means before you talk. Learn who animated what cuts before you talk. Okiura and Inoue does NOT rotoscope, they just know how the fuck people move. People who thinks Jin Roh is rotoscoped should stop pretending to know, because of how fucking casual they are. Please don't post this ever again.
>>1911719 >Jin-Roh had amazing animation, but on close inspection you realize that a lot of the human figures aren't strictly animated, but are in fact rotoscoped (traced over live action footage). Some people take exception to this technique, but I feel it worked brilliantly in this film. The scenes of Kei were often devastating, simply because she moved exactly as a real girl would. It accentuated the terror when you saw the Special Unit marching in, ready to deal out instant death. http://www.mania.com/jinroh-special-edition_article_81487.html
That said, nothing wrong with rotoscope. Stop getting so defensive.
Just because someone on the internet says anything, it does not mean that it's true. Please remember this.
I've read interviews with Inoue where he talks about how people tend to mistake his work in Jin Roh for rotoscoped.
Just read the comments in that shady "MY OPINIAN ON JIN RAH" you linked.
"Jin Roh does NOT use any rotoscoping for the realistic human animation. Director Hiroyuki Okiura, whose speciality it is to do such realistic work, claims as much in his interviews on the R2 special edition box set. The very extensive behind the scenes features in this box set do not contradict his claim, showing no form of live action involved in the animation.
As an animator, I have to say your "close inspection" is flawed. On close inspection, the motion is very clearly NOT rotoscoped, though it might appear as such at first glance. Watch a Ralph Bakshi film like American Pop, and you will see that the difference between rotoscoped animation, and what Okiura does, in Jin Roh and all his other works, is quite apparent."
>>1911715 >[Q&A session] >Q,Could you name the young animator that you remarkable most? >Ohira:hmm... If I have to mention, Bahi JD. He deserves this, i can't wait to see how his skill turns out in the next 3-4 years.
>>1911767 It was projected onto an object in real life. that's where the "3D" comes from. Everyone in my class was dissapointed when the teachers dropped 3d sculpting and stuff, and came up with this "modern art" stuff.
can someone answer me this for once, how in the hell do you draw traditionally on flash ?
I see all those professional animators drawing so naturally on flash, and yet when I open mine, I have two or three sizes of a shitty brush and every line seem clunky as hell. anyone can advice me something ? are there add-ons or something for flash ?
>>1911806 The problem with the brush is that the pen width scales depending on how zoomed in you are. The pencil tool remains the same. Also at the bottom of the toolbar turn pencil mode to ink mode, not smooth or straight.
>>1911860 Yeah, that annoys me with the brush aswell. The pen-tool is cool to use, but it's literally hell when it comes to colouring. There might be holes in your lines because of how flash reads input from your mouse/tablet, even though there are no visible holes on the canvas. I used pen-tool some before, but it only works against you if you want to colour anything.
I remember changing settings on the pen tool to make it less retarded, but I can't remember where I found it. Still. Brush tool is objectively best.
>>1911613 It's not Bahi, just a guy that's copying him.
Even so, I too, am thrown off by the flailing. It looks like Bahi is a little uncomfortable with "normal" swift character animation, and it really shows in that Dandy cut he did with that mustache monster. It's acceptable as animation, and it creates chaos, but it's not structured chaos, just "noise".
>>1912434 >"use reference footage at the very least"
That's not what >>1912068 said. >"Some will go so far as to turn the reference into a template" >"And some animator become so synonymous with a templated shot that's all they ever do" I guess he's referring to Okiura or Inoue in this case, and that's not the case.
>>1912434 Don't you mean there's no way YOU could do realistic animation without having to use reference footage? There are many artists in this world who can do things you could never imagine, because they are better at their craft than you will ever be.
>>1912459 >Western artists can't to any type of animation without refs.
And just in case you are too much of a moron to notice, I'm being sarcastic here. Both western and japanese artists can animate perfectly fine without reference, they just use refs because it's faster and easier and animation is all about making things easier and more efficient to lower production costs.
You really need to learn to draw and stop being so dependant on references if you ever want to make it as an animator.
>>1912549 It seems to me that typically there are people who want to talk more about animators and the industry. Ideally a separate thread should probably be made for work, since these fill up so quickly with discussion.
It kind of worked with the animation studies thread, but I don't remember if it died from lack of posts or if it got filled and died, so there's that.
>>1912553 *more people who want to talk about animators -- is what I should have said, but yeah, every animation thread other than that one mostly has been filled with posts about software and arguments about B.JD and pictures of anime scenes.
On another note, I'm making an image of software with it's pros and cons because it always comes up. So far I have these listed:
>>1912702 Oh my god, thank you so fucking much for this. It's just what I have been looking for. I used to love easytoon when I had a pc and now that I'm on mac I was missing it, but this is a perfect replacement, I'd say it's even better. Such simple and intuitive controls.
>>1910837 I don't know what you're talking about anon. Vilppu and Scott Robertson are probably the best people to learn from when it comes to fundamentals because they help put you in the right mindset for understanding how forms work. Frankly, I don't think it's possible to have an understanding of forms unless you lean it from a bottom up approach. People have been trying to draw from pure observation for centuries and they never even came close to the level people were at once the rules of perspective were discovered.
>>1913074 On top of >>1913084, your art skills are very poor. Normally I believe that you can still animate without being a master draftsman, but you have to at least have consistency in your character.
>>1912702 >>1912807 That's good to know! If you guys could make things that you like and dislike about the program, that would be great, I don't have a Mac to test it out myself.
For now this is what I have, not the prettiest though. I tried looking around for pros/cons, but I still need to flesh it out a bit. How is it looking folks? Anything I should add or remove? I'm considering on removing Synfig, but I don't know.
>>1913270 Can you read the thread before asking questions as these? There is a guy who made a list that caters perfectly to people who have trouble finding software. Instead of spamming with retarded questions every thread, try to contribute instead.
>>1913437 I like it. The only thing I could suggest is maybe give him little reaction from the step forward, or from the swing of the sword. He stops dead after those actions. He wields the sword as if it is as light as paper. Also the blood(?) spray from the ball appears to be moving vertically but the cut was horizontal. The blood spray should follow the direction of the cut.
Some of the users are highly talented. And they find some cool shit. They have a bunch of nice tutorials on there. I request you overlook the reddit thing in this case because there aren't that many strong animation communities. And the subreddit gets some pretty good hits. Hell if you're looking for exposure, you should definitely post you work there too.
How many categories do you think there should be? What do you think would be the best way of organizing it? -- I thought about adding links, but I figured these were all easily searchable on things like Google. Do you think I should add them? Is there a reason why searching for the software's name isn't as efficient?
-- I didn't invent any new terms, I think. TVPaint for example says on their site that:
>TVPaint Animation is a 2D software based on bitmap technology.
Do you think using the term raster would be easier to understand? Should I use both terms?
Regarding research and the like, the reason that it only lists a limited amount of software is because those are the ones that are mentioned often enough in these types of threads. I will admit I'm not the best at it though, so I'm relying on other people in this thread to catch any mistakes I've made.
The Pros/Cons are actually feedback that's been posted before too (except some of it, like the .gif thing). I don't think c&p the entire feature set from each program would be effective, which is why I looked back and saw what users here said about them when recommending them.
I am still fleshing it out though, I'll make sure to skim though each site again so I don't miss anything. Is there anything in specific that you think should be mentioned? How would you make it?
I did see a ton of more software recommended on other sites, but I don't know how much better or worse they are, which is why I'm just going off what I've seen mentioned. If you have any recommendations though, I would be glad to add them.
On that note, >>1913316 Thanks for letting me know about these two, I've added them to the thing and have also made the OS icons bigger.
>>1913854 If it's flash you can just use the "edit multiple frames" option next to the onion skin, have all the frames highlighted/bracketed, and then drag a selection box around all the art. wait for your computer to maybe be annoyed. then shift+up arrow everything
This is the one I see around the most, that and the exercises from Richard Williams Animator's Survival Kit.
From what I remember hearing, most places/people will always want to see your bouncing ball / walk cycles because it showcases what animating is mostly about (timing + squash and stretch). I might be remembering wrong though. Those two are still good either way
>>1914883 Something simple that's that number of frames would be about a day if you work nonstop. Taking into account the complexity, at least 3 days of nonstop work. Now, taking into account human concerns. A 10 second animation like this one would take about a week of hard work. But to put it into perspective, the Looney Tunes animators had to produce 10 seconds of animation minimum on a weekly basis. But their effect animation was much simpler.
>>1913921 While I suppose it's technically hard to animate, shit like this just feels like the death of animation to me. Why the fuck is this so popular? People flying through the air, fighting with retarded, supernatural power, with missiles flying all around while the camera goes berserk. There is so much of this, it's all the same and it's incredibly boring to watch. It's style over substance, without the style.
>>1915117 It's probably the same reason why superheroes/action and the like are so popular. In real life you can't/don't really see any of these things at all, so it's cool when these kinds of scenes show up.
So I've got of a stupid question but... I'm kind of a beginner, I understand from, perspective and start to try and learn some real anatomy, but I'm still just past pure beginner : can I try to learn to animate simple things as I learn to draw, or is this not a good idea?
>>1915418 Both, but put more emphasis on the realism. There's a strong mindset around here where everyone starts with the fundamentals and builds up their ability to draw realistically, then dumbs it down into cartoons. That's not the best mindset, and if you already know you want to animate, you might as well train it while you learn to draw.
>>1915418 I would say that you can learn how to draw and animate at the same time. You're just adding more things to learn about at the same time (timing, etc).
If you waited until you were super good at everything, you probably wouldn't be animating for a ton of years. Animating is just (usually) drawing a bunch of pictures in the first place, so I don't think it would hurt any.
If you can't draw but want to animate, there's no reason why you couldn't learn how to animate 3D models either. That's becoming the standard these days too, so someone who's interested in joining the animation business should be learning 2D and 3D unless they want to specifically stay in one niche.
i am getting used to animating on wide aspect ratios like 2.35:1 (widely used on movies, not pun intended) because it gives me better focus on drafts for some reason, anyone doing something they have never before when it comes to animating?
>>1915631 I do both, just to get enough work out here. Theres plenty of 2D work as well, you just have to know the right people and get into the industry. 3D is a tough industry though, lots of jobs have gone overseas to China, India, Singapore, Canada, etc.. because of subsidies.
>>1915612 Where are you located and should someone interested in getting a job in the industry be moving there/to an animation "hub sort of place? Or is location becoming less relevant with telecommuting and the internet?
>>1915659 Best places in the states are Los Angeles (for film and commercials), San Francisco (for mobile app/fb game type of work), and there are a few companies spread out. Bluesky is out in Connecticut, DreamWorks has offices in the SF Bay area, LA, India and China. Blizzard is around somewhere. Just do a google search for which industry you want to work in and look at the biggest saturation of companies within one area. Youre gonna need all those companies once your 3 month contract is up and you have a year lease on your apartment. My advice, either stick 100000% with it and completely forget you have a social life, or do it as a hobby. It's a pretty unstable industry. At least from my experience.
>>1915666 Thank you, I appreciate you responding! So all work will be contract work? I figured people who were in a big studio would just be moved to other projects once the one they were working on wrapped up.
I am happy with my minimal social life as it is. I'm going to go all in.
>>1917165 Yeah, that's me. I animated the cat on a different file, and then put it all together with a proper background. As a side-note, I fucked up the perspective, you can see the roof and the tables on the inside have different perspective, but I had to break it to make it work.
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