How big a moron was Hitler? It seems on hundreds of occasions

>>925350
>>the concept of invading Russia
idk man it wasnt that far off considering how well germany did on the eastern front in ww1

delete this

>>925350
you mentioned invasion of Russia only twice

>>925350
>What am I missing?
A brain and a non-zero exposure to history.

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>>925371
Hitler was a fucking idiot.
This should be in the sticky.

>>925350
Fascism is inherently flawed. The national mythology that the party weaves ultimately buys over the leaders themselves and the extreme executive power leads to the supreme leader surrounding himself with yes-men. That all means the leadership thinking their country can do a lot more than it really can and there is no one around to question that.

>relying on shitty allies
>losing touch with reality
>cancelling next gen weapon projects in 1940 thinking the war was one and then restarting them in 1942 only to have too few of them in service by the wars end.
>having a hard on for bombers when the luftwaffe really needed fighters
>not preparing for the Russian winter
>starving to death your skilled slave labor force
>giving priority to trains "resetting" jews over those suppling your army

>>925350
>>hesitating at moscow and kursk for months allowing the Russians to build impenetrable defences.

>moscow

I think most historians agree that the swing to Kiev was necessery because otherwise Army Group Center's flank would have been exposed. After all, it was a pretty successful battle (biggest encirclement in history I think)

>kursk

What would have been won if Kursk was attacked immediately? Wasn't it kinda the point to wait until a huge Russian force gathers in the pocket, and then try to annihilate the pocket in the most epic encirclement ever? If he attacked immediately he would have won a piece of land and maybe trapped a few Soviet troops in the area

>>925501
Kiev was an incredibly important city that held the way deeper into Russia.
Control of Kiev gave a lot of offensive options to whoever controlled it.

The point of taking Kiev was to open the interior of Russia for more attacks.

>>925501
Sure it was the greatest encirclement in history and a great success if you look at it by itself, but it ruined any chance to capture Moscow.

They didn't even need the panzer divisions from SGC to complete the encirlement, soviet commanders were so enept at this point in the war they couldn't even tie their own shoes let alone organize a 200+ mile counterattack against AGC's flank.

By delaying the drive to Moscow they just gave extra months for moscow to build defenses and allow the divisions in east Russia to be recalled for the defense of Moscow.

>>925561
No doubt.
But capturing moscow would have given Germany control of all the rails leading to every city in west Russia.

After you capture ot, then you could capture all the other cities on your flanks with greater ease.

It was the only way Germany had a chance to win the war in the east.

>>925623
>It was the only way Germany had a chance to win the war in the east.
Yes, but how would Germany capture Moscow (one of the most heavily defended cities) without already controlling other cities like Kiev or St Petersburg?

>>925350
>>the concept of invading Russia
>>actually invading Russia
So what, Germany should have ignored Russia and focused on Britain? Leaving a relatively undefended border between two huge industrial powers with radically different ideologies? Don't tell me you've fallen for the meme that Germany was allied to the Soviet Union

>>925793
>Don't tell me you've fallen for the meme that Germany was allied to the Soviet Union
History 101
Russia never throws the first punch.
Germany was safe and comfy behind the fucking Poland.

>>925831
But the Romanian petroleum reserves weren't safe. Stalin wanted the Western powers and Germany to weaken each other, it's not unlikely he would have attacked if Germany was about to gain the upper hand.

>systematically murdering your most productive demographic

>>925350
Keep in mind that stupid wonder weapons helped usher in American hegemony

One of Germany's biggest issues was trying to fight a war despite state-created internal divisions within the Reich. The war would have been far easier with the assurance of Jewish German scientists and financiers, and not persecuting the Poles and other Untermenschen would allow them to recruit anti-Soviet forces eager to fight their Russian oppressors.

Not to mention the poor allocation of resources specifically for liquidating civilians.

DESU, I kinda feel like Hitler was a made up person. Like really... how do you go from making all these really great moves to completely fucking up. Like he was doing SOOO well. Dude was a real straight shooter, had a peace treaty with Russia, Had Japan as an ally and let them take out British interest in Asia, had a Italian best friend that did what ever he wanted, and was on his way to conquering the rest of Militarized Europe. But then all of the sudden "Hey you know what, fuck the U.S." *declares war on US* "Hey you know what Fuck Russia too, I mean I'm still trying to get rid of the British, but fuck it I'll fight a war from both sides, not like that's gone wrong in the past for Germany or anything" *Declares war on Russia*

Nazi general: "Mine Fuer, maybe we shouldn't Start a war with russia?"
Hitler: "nope fuck Russia"
Nazi general: "ok... maybe we shouldn't fight in the Russian winter?"
Hitler: "nope fuck Russia"
Nazi General: "ok... maybe, probably should just go more south and focus on the oil then, instead of trying to insult Stalin by trying to take Stalingrad?"
Hitler: "Nope, fuck Russian and Stalin."

It's just like.... How the fuck did you think this was going to work out for you? And Hitler just fucked up so bad all at once. It was just all down hill from the loss at Stalingrad.

>>925350
>having unrealistic and too broad of goals for the invasion of Russia
the capture of moscow would have crippled the Russians pretty much permanently and wasn't achieved in first summer simply because panzer divisions had to be diverted since the italians were utterly fail in taking greece and the germans had to help

>constantly changing your main focus after the invasion had started
not expect many changes of doctrines and different efforts in is historically the greatest face off and pursuite of domination ever between nations


he was pretty effective before he became insane, witch was surprisingly long before the end

>>925350
also:
>capturing russia and absolutely murder and pillage the shit out of the countryside while welcomed as liberators at the begining

>>925350
>What am I missing?
6 trillion

>>926297
Well seeing that by the beginning of the war Hitler was being given methamphetamine, cocaine, barbiturates(almost nightly), morphine, bromides and testosterone really contributed to his declining mental health. Especially the meth, which is well documented in giving people paranoia and eventually paranoid psychosis/delusions. Not to mention cocaine, meth, bromides and barbiturates can give feelings of invincibility.

>>925350
>the concept of invading Russia
Stopped reading there. You are clearly retarded.
Russia was a big threat for germany, they were natural born enemies and it was pretty clear that if germany dosent attack russia it will be russia that attacks germany while they are fully occupied on the western front, which was actually Stalins plan. Remember not only did germany advance to the east but russia in the same time started conquering western territories.
It would have either been command half your army to defend the eastern border against an army that massively outnumbers them and can easily break through their lines or strike fast and hard and dont let them use the strength of their big army in hopes of wining the eastern front and devouring all russian assets without having to protect your borders.
The later is obviously the better choice and starting a war against russia was one of the better decisions.
The bad ones came 1940+.

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>>925350
Some of these are only mistakes in hindsight. At the time, after the fall of France when all of Western Europe was under the Nazi's control, invading and destroying Russia seemed plausible. Especially considering how bad Russia had done in the Winter War.

The atrocities against the Ukraine was probably his biggest fuck up. If you really think they're racial subhumans betray them after the war is won. Until then, that's a lot of angry bodies to throw at Stalin.

>>926297
Hitler didn't do any "great moves"

His armies blitzkrieged into poorly prepared countries and then he stole the reserves of several banks because his whole policy could not support all that production.

Hitler couldn't have done anything about the forces escaping at Dunkirk. The tanks out paced the logistics train, the infantry, and their reliability.

The tanks broke down.

Hitla was stopid guys XD
He made mistakes like all other leaders. Get over it. Why are people so obsessed with proving that Hitler was dumb? In buzzfeed and co you can do this "nazis so dumb" shit.

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Hitler was a tard, but Mainstein and the surviving generals were equally to blame for the losses. Might as well actually learn something while you're shit posting OP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zinPbUZUHDE

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>>926512
>Every leader makes mistakes, you guys. Yes, even the kind of mistakes that lead to all the nation's major cities being destroyed, millions of their countrymen either dead or as prisoners of war in foreign nations, massive and unprecedented rapes of the female population, and the country they led being occupied and split in two for fifty years. Literally every leader has had fuckups like this, stop being so mean to Daddy Adolf ;_;

>>925501
>

What would have been won if Kursk was attacked immediately? Wasn't it kinda the point to wait until a huge Russian force gathers in the pocket, and then try to annihilate the pocket in the most epic encirclement ever?
There's also the problem that the soviets had the Germans absolutely spanked in 1943 in terms of logistics, intelligence, and skill at redeploying their reserves. Anywhere the Germans build up, the Russians can build up faster. If you say they should never have launched an offensive against a superior build up, you're basically suggesting that the Germans should have abandoned any hopes of launching strategic offensives against the Soviets.

Keep in mind, the kind of wehraboos who say the war was lost because of Hitler's stupid decision making forget that Kursk should have been the Heer's shining moment. That was certainly what the German officers told Hitler.

Germany had better soldiers, worth 2 Russians, 5 Russians, 10 russians! They're only losing because of the cold, and exposed flanks!

Kursk was an opportunity to fight the Soviet Army pinned down, without having to worry about supply lines and just dig in against the Soviet Soldier, and they lost.

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>>925501

What Hitler should have done at Kursk is just let Manstein decide what to do and stop making suggestions.

>>925350
Starting war with Poland instead of France.

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>actually invading Russia
I wholeheartedly recommend reading this book.

>>925350
One thing you have to learn is that many of those things is a result of German officer corps still having "prussian spirit" which included shifting blame for your own mistakes on everybody else. Hitler fucked up lot's of shit though.
>getting cold feet at Dunkirk and letting the British Expeditionary Force escape
Rundstedt's idea.
>the concept of invading Russia
He wouldn't be able to sustain war economy without it, Soviets stopped sending resources because of enormous debt Germans had there.
>declaring war on the USA
He didn't break a promise once. Wow. Either way war with the US was going to happen anyway.
>having unrealistic and too broad of goals for the invasion of Russia
>constantly changing your main focus after the invasion had started
>pulling three panzer divisions from army group center who[...]
>dismissing the leader of your Army group and assigning yourself the new commander
>thinking that will can overcome things such as logistics and tactics
That's true.
>not allowing tactical retreats
That was an order that was completely ignored. Hitler didn't allow for any retreats but irl it was only about strategic scale.
>allowing complete armies to get surrounded and wiped out
The problem was that they should've left Stalingrad after month or so and siege it, but the perspective of breaking Soviet logistics in the area was too attractive.
>wasting resources on stupid wonder weapon projects
Thanks military-industrial complex. Majority of NATO has the same problem, let a war start and suddenly missiles, torpedoes etc. will be 90% dud.
>refusing potential allies (i.e. nationalist Ukrainians) because you had retarded racial policies and instead make them enemies.
He used them as allies though, just instead of giving them shoddy equipment and pretending that they're good to go on the frontline he used them for anti-partisan duties.

>>925390
That's not a flaw, that's exactly how it's supposed to work. The Nation is acting as one behind its Leader, and the Nation is only as good as its Leader. Hitler was a great politician, but he was no military commander and it showed. If Hitler had made better decisions, Germany would have made better decisions.

>>926808
That is a flaw. Any individual is going to make mistakes. Fascism would require a perfect human being who never erred in order for it to work. And even then, having only one perspective on an issue or problem is going to inevitably lead to failure and inefficiency.

If democracy has anything good going for it, it's that the democratic process of compete ideologies minimizes groupthink.

>>926815
>If democracy has anything good going for it, it's that the democratic process of compete ideologies minimizes groupthink.
Is this a joke? The Iraq War begs to differ.

>>926869
Because America is the only democracy, right?

>>926734
debunked pseudohistory

>>926887
Are you seriously trying to claim that groupthink isn't widespread in democracies?

>>926908
It's less damaging in a democratic society where the parties involved can be removed from office. Under fascism there is no meaningful way to end governmental groupthink other than completely removing and dismantling the state as happened in Italy and Germany.

>>926923
When was the last time a major party was completely removed from office in the US, or the UK? Democracy is a race to the bottom disguised with an illusion of choice.

Basically all you're saying is Hitler is stupid because he was racist.

That doesn't actually make much fucking sense, but hey ho you're a lefty cuck so it doesn't surprise me.

>>925350
delete it fat

There's a branch of history that say's Hitler was actually about as often right as he was wrong. The whole hurr durr Hitler retardo thing was kinda pushed heavily by the former nazi generals and prussianboo historians after the war. Even when you look at what are considered to be historically 'bad' decisions they often were supported by most of his generals, it's just that the ones that dissented are noted more than the ones that agreed.

he was obviously right to pick manstein's plan for invading france, something which wasn't at all favoured by the general staff.

he was possibly right to hold the line in russia in 1941 outside Moscow.

he was possibly right to attack the south in 1943 rather than moscow again

he was right to hold the line in Italy in 43 rather than fall back

he made some blunders, but so did stalin, churchill, roosevelt and so on. it's probably very hard too be 'ceo' of a country at war and not blunder in some manner.

>not realizing that the strength of your army is using mobility and blitzkrieg tactics and not stagnant World War I Era battles of attrition

stuff like this is wrongheaded, because at a certain point, wars of manoevur are not possible. Hitler was probably more prescient than his generals in realising that the allies had caught up and there wasnt' going to be any obvious repeat of the victories of 39-41 - something which had as much to do with the ineptitude of the allied war methods as it did with german genius. it'd be suicidal to attempt gigantic panzer drives in 1944, for instance. at best you'd get cut off at worst you'd just get BTFO'd by aircraft.

>>925350
Falaise Pocket just blows my mind with his incompetence.

>>926107
4chan isn't that productive.

>>926203
But how would he even get in power without projecting some peoples as the enemy?

>>926808
The problem is that the leadership eventually buys into it's own national mythology. It thinks it can't lose but it can. This should be obvious but the centralization of authority means there is no one to point it out. It leads to grand fuck ups.

Fascism is the best way of mobilizing a country quickly, which is usually only useful for war, but it quickly leads to overextension and self destruction.

>>926512
This.

Pretty much all of the Nazi leadership scored exceptionally high on the IQ tests they were handed by the Allied psychologists at Nuremberg and most of them agreed on the matter that Hitler was a smart guy.
Stupid decisions may have had something to do with his health deteriorating in the later years, but the idea that Hitler was a moron is utter nonsense, and such propaganda is better off at /reddit/.

>>930375
Also, a gamble is only a mistake if you lose.

>>930225
If only we could genocide 4chan.

>>925350
Anybody who doesn't understand why Germany invaded Russia doesn't understand the history properly. Fascism vs communism was basically the ultimate showdown, those two ideologies could not coexist next to eachother for long, they hated eachother

>>925367
>>925355
kek
>>925350
>the concept of invading Russia
>actually invading Russia
the absolute madman