Is Jugoslavija the only real example of a functioning Socialist state?

>>918260
Take this to /pol/, Myron

>>918269

It's a legitimate question for the board.

I'm patently biased but the premise is still legit.

>>918260
It fell apart.

>>918287

It takes a Stongman to hold a socialist state together.

When Tito died, the Germans and Americans fueled the nationalist(s).

Prior to Tito's demise, Jugoslavija was a functioning Socialist state. Especially in comparison to the other attempts. Was it not?

View it as an essay question or seminar topic if you must.

it only functioned well because Tito was an IRL Reinhard von Lohengramm, it is not sustainable in the real world

>>918299

So you're saying Tito was an outlier? A truly miraculous anomaly who could only occur when the powers were aligned in a very specific way?

Not necessarily disagreeing with you... Just asking if this is your take.

>>918296
Fine, it was ineffective for its very socialist leanings. Even if Tito theoretically lived forever, the socialist model could not last, because Wealth would eventually be used up in uneconomic policies, and as with almost all welfare states, the amount of wealth needed to expand, would go far beyond that which can reasonably be produced. As minorities became discontent without such living standards, revolutions would again rack the country, regardless of whether Tito was alive or not.

>>918321

So essentially, the notion of a functioning socialist state is an unsustainable red herring and Tito's Jugoslavija just happened to exist in exactly the right place at exactly the right time?

>>918331
Yes, it's basic economic principle that a socialist economic system, is uneconomic, and trying to maintain in yugoslavia's case, would only have ended in failure with all the ethnic tensions.

>>918336

Your reasoning is exactly why I posted this thread here instead of /pol/. Accept the kudos if you wish.

The ethnic tensions and the dissipation of the cold war only served to accelerate the demise of Socialist Jugoslavija.

Even an ethnically "pure" Socialist state with all of the resources of the Balkans would have capitulated eventually.

The anomaly is that Tito was a truly remarkable statesman.

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>>918260
Yugoslavia was a clusterfuck, not "functioning socialist state".

And, frankly, I don't understand what you have against USSR. It wasn't perfect, but neither was USA or any other nation.

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Hey, don't knock the shitty Ukrainian enclave for about a week. They did well considering it was pretty much just wherever the insurrectionaries set up shop.

>>918399

I have no more against the USSR than I have against the USA. They're both wildly imperfect.

Jugoslavija is different because the majority of oldfags in said former clusterfuck will tell you that life was better under Tito. Bosniaks, Croats, Serbs one and all (excluding the ultra-nationalists whose agendas had fuck all to do with economics).

>>918260

Didnt it fall into civil war based around ethnic and religious dividing lines? proving that the marxist idea of a sort of multicultural society is able to function false? And proving that nationalist are right?

Just think about it. If Yugoslavia was that fucking great, and it STILL fell into a brutal civil war, then what chance do shittier countries have? and that people need some binding similarity for a country to actually work and at least a little bit of nationalism?

>>918464

Nobody knows a Serb like a Croat.
Nobody knows a Croat like a Bosniak.
Nobody knows a Bosniak like a Serb.
Repeat ad infinitum.

Take it from someone heavily familiar with the region. They are the same people.

We're not talking about shoehorning Africans and Middle Easterners into White communities.

The issue of ethnicity is strictly borne of the incompetence of municipally inept megalomaniacs.

This is attested by the fact that outside of ultra-nationalists (a minority - except in Republika Srpska - that place is a fucking microcosm of retardation), Croats, Bosniaks and Serbs will all happily share a beer together whenever they societal or work-orientated paths.

If you don't believe me, go and visit. It's a stunning region.

>>918501

Thats only convincing me of my point even more. If these people are basically all the same, and just the first sign of shit going down the drain is enough to make them go at each others throats, then how much worse is it going to be when extremely different groups are in the same situation?

>>918260
It only worked because of Tito borrowing from the West which led to its collapse

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>>918535
>Tito borrowing from the West


>SEE, SOCIALISM IS THE BEST!

>has to take money from capitalist to even function

Tito is best girl.

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>>918545

>>918523

You make a fair point.

People are stupid and as they're generally incapable of getting their heads around something as complex as economics, it's easier to use arbitrary metrics such as vague ethnicity.

That's what makes the dissolution of Jugoslavija so tragic. The West could just as easily intervened neutrally and invited all of the states into Europe. Instead, they invited the Slovenes and fomented an all out war which will take generations to resolve... if ever.

Yet the cause de jour is to let fuckloads of military age MEs swarm in.

Not sure you're in Europe but if you are, I'm sure you can differentiate a Lithuanian (for example) bricklayer who wants to work, assimilate and learn the language from a Somali or Pakistani with no intention of doing either.

Multiculturalism isn't, in and of itself, a corrupt concept. It's the manner of multiculturalism that creates concern.

>>918412
Oldfags all over the world say the past was better than the present. This is no proof at all and neither is your OP. You are stating stuff without any backup.

>>918555
>Instead, they invited the Slovenes

That was not the reason Slovenia declared independence at all.

>>918541
Yeah and before that like 20% of the state incomes was generated through cultural exports. Basically it went like this: Yugos allowed Western trends in the country (cinema and rock music). Yugos copied and appropriated it. Then they exported it to the Eastern block where Western culture wasn't allowed. It was quite clever but only worked in the specific Cold War environment with Tito being happy to be a freeloader.
See: https://books.google.de/books?id=ZMd7AgAAQBAJ&lpg=PA575&ots=N4kQnyA__a&dq=yugoslavia%20cultural%20exports&hl=de&pg=PA575#v=onepage&q=yugoslavia%20cultural%20exports&f=false

>>918555
>I'm sure you can differentiate a Lithuanian (for example) bricklayer who wants to work, assimilate and learn the language from a Somali or Pakistani with no intention of doing either.

Im an American, but I get your point

>Multiculturalism isn't, in and of itself, a corrupt concept.

I think it is. I think its a liberal over reaction to racism that has no real chance of working out. I do think multiethnic or racial societies can function, but there needs to be a common culture they can unite under. And with the somali or pakistani immigrants to Lithuania like you said, those people need to completely give up their views on the world and adopt a European one for things to even have a chance of working out, but of course they wont. And its mostly because they dont give a shit about Europe or European values or anything like that, they just know they will personally be better off there, and see how its different and think "fuck this, Im going to make it like my home"

>>918607
>Oldfags all over the world say the past was better than the present

I'm being facetious here but the oldfags in Botswana wouldn't say so.

>>918607
>This is no proof at all and neither is your OP. You are stating stuff without any backup.

This is a valid point. My evidence is purely anecdotal. Nevertheless, without independently conducted mass surveys, there is no evidence that the majority of oldfag Jugoslavs think that things are better. Unless you can provide same, we're both arguing to prove a negative.

I can only go off the many oldfags I have spoken to in the region and a vague recollection of a survey I may have read on some website.

That for now will have to suffice as far as I'm concerned.

>>918611

Was it because the Serbs were going batshit whackadoodle or because they "felt" more European than the rest of their neighbours?

>>918650

Then we are on the same page... I think.

America thrived because it was a grounded consensus among Anglos, Dutch and Germans. Canada also did well due to the co-operation (of sorts) between Anglos and Franks.

Multiculturalism works within the right metrics and for a fleeting period, Jugoslavija was a fine example.

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>>918663
>Was it because the Serbs were going batshit whackadoodle or because they "felt" more European than the rest of their neighbours?

The mian reason was the growing centralisation in Belgrade and the rise of Serbian nationalism. There was no "feeling European"; but Slovene identity was an important part of the independence movement as there was a barrier between the Slovenes and the others, particularly in language. The Slovene public longed for democratisation. There was also the fact that the Slovene communists were always a bit more reformist and federalist than the others; one of the Slovene proposals was a confederacy, but Belgrade wanted to hear none of it.

>>918699

Thank you for your input. I have no immediate reason to dispute what you have said.

May I ask if you or your family are Slovene and if so, how do you feel about getting out of the war *virtually* unscathed?

Do you or yours feel any sympathy (maybe guilt) towards the Croats and Bosnians who endured hell?

If you are not Slovene, how do you know so much about the matter?

Genuinely interested.

>>918260
Tito is the only reason Yugoslavia worked

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>>918728
I am Slovene. Going through the war with the number of casualties as low as it was is definitely great.

Nobody really thinks much about what happened to the Bosnians and Croats. I understand sadness, but why would we feel guilty, anyway? We fought a war for independence and we won - what happened after that was not our business.

>>918260
Yougoslavia being non aligned and therefore getting less sanctions and proxy wars probably helped.

It wasn't a paradise either, ask anyone from there. Some fucked up stuff happened, and even middle class people suffered confiscations.

Tito's greatest feat was unifying the region and keeping the peace.

With Tito gone, it was bound to collapse though. He had the strong grip over affairs of a Stalin with less of the murderous sociopathy.

>>918741
Person of Ruler always important. Banal and true.

>>918752
>I am Slovene. Going through the war with the number of casualties as low as it was is definitely great.
>Nobody really thinks much about what happened to the Bosnians and Croats. I understand sadness, but why would we feel guilty, anyway? We fought a war for independence and we won - what happened after that was not our business.

Thank you for your honesty.

It does sadden me though.

For nearly seventy years, you all contributed to the same pot, and you all ate from the same pot.

You went to the same resorts. You travelled the same lines. Your language and cultures were a bit different from the rest but they were still closer to yours than Italy or Austria. Slovenia actually gave Jugoslavija one of (if not the) greatest statesman in modern history. A man who liberated you along with men from every Jugoslav state.

You got out and protected yourself from the Serbs but to leave the Croats and Bosnians on their own against the JNA? People who called you brother for seventy years? And not even call on NATO or the UN to intervene ASAP.

You just deliberately forgot about them. They weren't your business any more.

It's just... not sad... It's inhuman.

The Croats and Bosnians I know judge you for what your country did because of the exact attitude you're portraying.

Again, I'm an outsider but I have to ask;-

How can you be so nonchalant?

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>>918789
We may have lived together for a while but we lived under the Habsburgs in another country for a much longer period of time. But that's not really important for this conversation.

After our ten days of war, a cease fire was declared. And even after the meeting on Brioni went through, what - we should've declared war on Yugoslavia and started it all over again, just because the others were fighting a war at the moment? What would less than two million people (less than half of that people capable of fighting) do against Yugoslavia? Croatia has four times as many people. For their support before the war, they received weapons from us but I don't think they could expect more; they didn't stop the Yugoslav army from crossing the border into our country.
Besides, the refugees of the wars were allowed to come here and many stayed. Today, they are so grateful that they live off of our social system, they don't speak our language and they think they are kings.

And don't give me the liberation bullshit. The Axis killed about a hundred thousand of our people but Tito himself, the great liberator, killed about ten thousand during and after the war; we will most likely never know the exact number since their bones lie scattered in the woods, in unmarked graves and in caves and mines. Thousands of our people left the country to escape communism. Since Yugoslavia was all about brotherhood and unity and since Slovenia was so much better off than the rest of the federation, our money, our supplies and our machinery were shipped to the south; the Slovene people received nothing in return but foreign work force that still inhabits our cities to this day - approximately 15% of our population is composed of foreigners who in many cases still do not speak our language. All in all, this Balkan socialism left us far behind the rest of Europe, both economically as well as mentally.

>>918728
> towards the Croats and Bosnians who endured hell
The Croats didn't endure hell, they had FAR less casualties in those conflicts than either the Bosniaks or the Serbs. They came out of that war with very few consequences.

>>918789
>pretending the issue is this black and white
Slovenia had an up-front view of the ethnic cleansing of Serbs in Croatia. Serbs were predominantly the victims of the Croats in that war, not vice-versa.

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>>918865
>Serbs were predominantly the victims of the Croats in that war, not vice-versa.

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>>918865
That didn't happen here because we had less Serbs than in Croatia and because our police force stopped their "rally of truth" in our capital from happening back in 1989. When the war began, many of them (but also Croats, Bosnians and others that lived in Slovenia) fled down south, thinking Slovenia was going to get destroyed. they were wrong and our government had their citizenships revoked but then they sued our country in the European Council of Human Rights and we have to pay them now, the useless parasites.

Not enough Cr*ats were killed. That's all you need to know about Yugoslavia.

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>>918336
>>>918331
>Yes, it's basic economic principle that a socialist economic system, is uneconomic,

>t. libertarian

>>918900

So if Tito was replaced by another liked/tolerated-by-all strongman, would Socialist Jugoslavija still exist today without the competing cold war entities to feed from?

Explain your reasoning.

>>918555
Invited. Ha. The west was against Jugoslavia falling apart. We had to lie about the date of independance referendum.

>>918909
>to feed from

>implying that those two superpowers' threats didnt force tito to maintain one of the strongest armies in the world
>implying the state couldnt cut spending a bit
>implying they coudnt send people to work for cheap in western countries as they usually did
>implying capitalism solves any of the problems you talk about

>>918260
It is. However how much of it functioning was due to properly set up socialism or to Tito's government's skill and the money he received from both powers not to fall to the enemy is up to debate.

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>free

Yugoslavia never was really united to begin with. The differences between individual republics were huge, even stuff you would think could easily be made the same everywhere, such as education, was different in, say Kosovo and Macedonia than it was in Croatia or Slovenia.
>>918331
It was never functional. We lived off foreign debt, most of which was invested either in the military or in commieblocks in order to bribe the people with cheap apartments. The infrastructure sucked, and there were even stupid excuses such as "if we make good roads we would be making transport easier for invading enemies". More people than necessary were hired pretty much everywhere, so giving them vacations wasn't a problem either. The standards of labor were incomparable to those in capitalist countries.

Many people are nostalgic for socialism, but those figures would be much lower if it wasn't for the wars and destruction of the 90s (which they don't realize are also a result of communist rule).

>>918260
Can you fucks make 7.62 x 39 rounds a little more consistently, please? tia

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>>918260
>your economy is based around the special cold-war enviroment where your only income is from two countries trying to expand their influence
>even with this your country is in constant crisis
>USSR is collapsing in on its self in the 80s
>ultra-crisis mode engage because now that the russians arent funding you for influence, there is no need for usa to fund you for influence either
>functioning
topwew lad
and all this is not even taking in the fact that there were massive ethnic tensions and the vast majority of people were enraged with how shit things were

>challenge me
I've lived there unlike your foreign ass so i challenge you then

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>>919707
Why is he so smug?

Watching footage of the Yugoslav Wars is so surreal. Everything looks so modern, it's like a war happening in your hometown or city.

>>920556
thats because not all countries east of germany are shitholes

>>918260
>they sold rocket technology to both the Russians and Americans
Lmao

Stupid dumb fuck

>>918260
Yugoslavia wasn't really Socialist, State-capitalist with Market Socialist elements (Cooperatives allowed and allowed to compete in a market).

Yugoslavia would have collapsed eventually because it existed in a capitalist world thus had to succumb to the laws of capitalism to get resources.

For Socialism to function, it needs to control enough of the world that it can be 100% self-sufficient and it never did this, possibly it could have if China and the USSR didn't fucking hate eachother more than they hated the west, but they did.

Another point with Socialist states is that they tended to be filled with ultra-conservatives at the top who were basically luddites, USSR rejected modern agricultural techniques, rejected agricultural science, rejected computers were of any use etc etc.

Back to Yugoslavia, the major fuckup was that Tito didn't crush the nationalists, the best way to do this subtlety would be "split up" the peoples of the country by offering them jobs, better homes, better schools etc in other areas, so move a lot of Serbs to Coratia, Slovenia etc, move a lot of Slovenians to Croatia etc.

Nationalism is one of the most powerful cancerous spooks.

>>920769
top shitpost
well sure you might as well unite germany, poland and france under a banner you pulled out of your arse.
eradicate the nationalists and viola
you got yourself a dank country right?

>>918260
Full Employment was one of the few good things about the Socialst states and contrary to what you said, Yugoslavia didn't have it. Some regions had pretty high unemployment rate and if it there wasn't the opportunity to be a guest worker abroad (which hundreds of thousands took) it would have been a very serious problem for the state.

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>>920769
Migrations are partly the reason why the Yugoslav wars were so bloody. Had the Serbs not migrated to Krajina and the area that is today known as Republika Srpska, there would be no ethnic violence there.

And those sort of migrations you mentioned did actually happen, which led to shit consequences that can be felt to this day.

>>922925
I'll give you Krajina but Serbs in Bosnia had lived there before Bosniaks were at thing.

>>923858
I know they lived in Herzegovina and the eastern parts of Bosnia but I'm not sure about the other parts. The central part of Bosnia was inhabited by the Bosnians and the west was settled by Croats (at one point the Croatian capital was in Bihač).

Bulgaria was pretty nice.

>>920543
Only Correct post.

Also it wasn't really socialism in the later period. It was ''market socialism''

>>918260
But did workers run their business like co-ops?

No.

Tito kept everything going through sheer will and by having both the Warsaw Pact and NATO nations support Yugoslavia.

Not knowing shit about Jugoslavija, except that the immigrants from that war came here and started a small maffia, They got some pretty dank music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teTUVKzErkI

>>926942
The Yugoslav wars produced the best music, in my opinion. You don't even have to understand the lyrics because the videos make up for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4sqMNHZxjI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RdftnURWBs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rNWQE5ammw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUbCp2WgkYw