Roman Catholic Church

>>877709
Televangelists.

Why do Protestards care so much about Catholicism? Like, they always go 'waaah da Catholics have false teachings!' but the Catholic Church's teachings are pretty much all in accordance with other churches like the Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, Ethiopian, etc...

Protestants are clearly the odd ones out.

>>877709
t. Butthurt Protestant

>>877715
Protestant tradition is about whining about catholic tradition, it's like ukrainian nationalism that's solely based on russophobia.

>>877709
t. Ahmed

or

t. Martin

>>877715
>>877718
Actually I'm Eastern Orthodox.

I don't like arguing about teachings, but the Roman Catholic Church is morally bankrupt - always was. It's a mockery of Christianity.

>>877728
>t. Ahmed

I think Muslims are more Christian than Roman Catholics.

>>877714
The original Televangelist was Fulton Sheen, a Catholic archbishop.

>>877715
>Why do Protestards care so much about Catholicism?
Because they separated themselves from the Church in the West, Jesus founded a Church and not a Bible, and they're not the ones that compiled the New Testament.

A Protestant, by definition, is someone that protests. And we all know what they've been protesting all this time.

>>877728
Why not both?

>>877730

Are you a convert?

>>877735
>And we all know what they've been protesting all this time.
I honestly don't know what you're implying.

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>>877709
wow what the hell is this? Even non-Catholic historians agree that Catholicism was largely responsible for the rise of western civilization. This board is /pol/ tier at best

Please educate yourself: http://history-world.org/a_history_of_the_catholic_church.htm

>>878071
It's mostly an offshot of the "le catholics are not white" may may

>>878071
>OP says "No wonder the worst mass murderers and pedophiles are Catholics"
>Hurr durr but we wuz creatorz of the west n shit

>>878088
> world's largest single religious body and the largest Christian church, as well as its largest Catholic church, comprising over half of all Christians (1.22 billion Christians of 2.1 billion) and nearly one-sixth of the world's population

>>877730
>morally bankrupt

Do you really want me to post images of your priests praising AKs?

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>>878074
White Catholic reporting in
>>878088
>OP says some baseless overused shit to attack the catholic church
>I reply that that's wrong, and in fact, the catholic church is largely responsible for the rise of western civilization
I don't see your point. Unless you're trying to imply that western civilization itself is deplorable.

Good God, are people really this stupid now?

>>878134
>the catholic church is largely responsible for the rise of western civilization

Despite not because, it would have happen either way.

Who cares about the denominations. Christianity is a complete failure. It tells you to love your enemies and turn the other cheek. It's basically the forefather of leftism and cuckolding.

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>>878155
please read the link posted here >>878071
for a basic level of knowledge concerning the topic

>>878162
more like leftism is an attempt to take God out of Christianity (see: Communism)

Such a poor level of historical conception on this board. Disappointing..

>>878172
Leftism is secular lutheranism, you can see that it developed in countries that were protestants to begin with (sweden, germany, uk, usa)

>>878172

In that case, why is your cuck pope telling me to build bridges? Why is Merkel, the destroyer of Europe, a christian democrat?

I'm afraid reality doesn't support your specific club of cucktianity. Now why don't you go save some rapefugees like a good samaritan

>>877709
No, not even close. Not the devil himself is responsible for more murders of christians and jews than the vatican.

>>877715
Yes, pagans do what pagans do.

It's when pagans say they're just a sect of Christianity, while standing in an ocean of Christian blood, that people take offense.

We don't care that you worship the Queen of Heaven. We're only dumbfounded that you think her name is Mary.

>>878162
>implying there isn't even greater intersection between atheism and cuckoldery.

>>877731
Jesus is just a prophet, but is coming back, v. Jesus is dead.

It's six for one, half dozen for the other.

>>878186
>Merkel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel
Religion Lutheranism

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>>878186
>endless maymays
I approve of this compelling historical analysis

>>878182
Further evidence that protestantism is straight from hell

>>878134
The rise of Western Civilization happened when the people took the bibles back from the papists, who had chained them shut to the pulpits, and neglected them.

>>878197

Do give me the numbers on this, cucktolic.

Or is this another complete fantasy, like priests who don't rape little boys?

>>878204
Luther is Catholic, papist. Whatever excommunicated papists are.

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>>878208
Here's some numbers concerning our Holy Mother Church

Enjoy

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>>878210
>Luther is Catholic
I can honestly say I have never heard that one before

Please tell me that this is bait

>>877709
No you have pedophiles and mass murders because the Catholic Church teaches as long as you go to confession and repent you will be saved thus it attracts the greatest of sinners who like all of us fail but when they fall from grace they fall far faster and harder

>>878225
Luther was a catholic friar.

What did you think he was? An outsider?

>>878203

Like I said, the name of your faggy little clubs don't matter to me. What matters is that the very phenomena of cuckolding and eternal pity for those who don't deserve it are impossible to imagine without Christianity.

If you don't love your enemies, and want the attackers of Christianity dead (which in the case of Islam is fully understandable), you're merely demonstrating that your doctrine is inherently suicidal and impossible to implement in real life

>>878225
It's like heroin, for protestants to remain protestant they need more and more protest overtime.

>>878226
Plus, for a price, you can go rape little boys for say, a week, no problem.

>>877742
>I honestly don't know what you're implying.
That Protestants protest the Catholic Church.

Shocking, I know.

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>>878208
>France
>Sweden

>>878219

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything I just talked about.

Do your eyeballs shrink or something when you screw too many little boys?

>>878219
The Jesuits are getting sloppy with their propaganda, if that's the best they can do. I guess they miss losing their black pope to the vatican.

>>878225
Was Luther not a catholic monk who then just disagreed with the church and proposed changes to 13 doctrines or something

>>878231
We never have anything to do with you papists offline. Nobody cares about you. We just shake our heads in wonder that satan can appear so organized.

>>878219
That's fine and all but now the Pope is bowing to the Muslims. They're literally blasphemous heathens.

>>878237

Countries that merely replaced Christianity with its secular cousin, leftism.

>>878235
pics of the last protest, please.

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>>878225
>Luther is Catholic
>I can honestly say I have never heard that one before
Before you type the word "Luther" on /his/, remember to read Martin "the pope does well" Luther's 95 theses.

>>878247
You are trying too hard m8.

>>878245
Disagreed? He saw the vatican for the cess pool that it was, and demanded it become slightly less evil.

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>>878227
Okay, Luther was a Catholic priest until he broke from the Church with his starting the Great Deformation

What's your point?

>>878254
You worship the Queen of Heaven, led by the False Prophet of the Whore of Babylon, tutored in the ways of Mystery Babylon from birth.

You are evil.

>>878258

That the vatican was so vile even men inside it puked.

>>878260
You hurl vile insults at the Mother Of God, unprovoked. You will answer to Jesus when your time comes.

>>878250
Then why are there other leftist countries with lower percentage of atheist are aren't as cucked and France and Sweden?

>>878251
I'll give you a video instead:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C31Iyezgro0

>>878260
You forgot the dagon hat part, apply yourself.

>>878234
If you kept on doing it then the priest would advise you to turn yourself in for your crimes to show you truly we're sorry

>>878267
I won't, actually, as Jesus' mother is not the Queen of Heaven.

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>>878253
for all his wickedness, even Luther still gave some homage to the Holy Father. Good on him for that. Wish I could say the same for you.

>>878272
So, no protests. Got it. Everything revolves around Rome. If you're a Christian, you're protesting Rome. If you're orthodox, you're a schismatic from Rome. Everything is about Rome.

And Rome is Babylon.

>>878273
St. Peter Damian described Pope Benedict IX as “feasting on immorality” and “a demon from hell in the disguise of a priest” in the Liber Gomorrhianus, a treatise on papal corruption and sex that accused Benedict IX of routine homosexuality and bestiality.

He was also accused by Bishop Benno of Piacenza of “many vile adulteries and murders.”

Pope Victor III referred to “his rapes, murders and other unspeakable acts. His life as a Pope so vile, so foul, so execrable, that I shudder to think of it.”

Pretty sure that guy had a Dagon hat.

>>878274
Exactly. As Paul told the Romans, the wages of sin is having to say you're sorry.

>>878279
>Rome is Babylon maymay
Wouldn't you say that America resembles Babylon more than the Vatican? America is protestant btw

>>878280
Oh, and papists, that guy was infallible too. The gay raping murdering adulterous pope.

Infallible.

>>877709

>Muh special flavour of Christianity is better than yours

Prots get out

>>878286
America has adopted the Babylonian economic system, but not the Babylonian religious system. It has crept in since the 18th century, when men were wise to keep it out, so that today we are infested with Mystery Babylon to such an extent that I no longer pray for my country, but know it is under judgment.

Peter called Rome "Babylon", so I'm going to stick with that.

>>878287
>what is papal infallibility
(in the Roman Catholic Church) the doctrine that in specified circumstances the pope is incapable of error in pronouncing dogma.

Incapable of sin =/= infallible

>>878291
Real christianity has never been tried.

>>878294
“Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff” (Porro subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus, dicimus, definimus, et pronuntiamus omnino esse de necessitate salutis).This is considered to be an infallible declaration of the Catholic Church.

We're not in your infested sewer.

>>878295
>Peter called Rome "Babylon",
>hundreds of years before Rome was converted to Christianity
>so I'm going to stick with that.
>and ignore history
welcome to /his/

>>878299
There wasn't even a worm on that hook m8.

And yet, everything that monster said ex cathedra is infallible.

>>878304
I was once a Prot dude

>>878306
Show me in history where Rome ceased being Babylon.

Protip: you can't.

>>878308
No you were not, if you are not a Christian now. I don't know what you mean by Prot. If by Prot you mean born again Christian, then why lie on the internet?

>>878311
Constantine converted and moved the capital away from Rome, leaving Rome as the dominant spiritual guidance of Europe under the Pope.

>>878307
I don't believe that "monster" ever made any ex cathedra declarations. Feel free to prove me wrong if you can

>>878319
He never converted to anything but the sun worshiper that he and his father were. Arius the heretic baptized him at his death. Constantine moved to Constantinople, and the Roman empire lasted there a thousand years. Most of the evil of the Roman Church was done before the fall of that leg of the empire, from Rome.

>>878323

So he's not a monster? He's a "monster"?

You cannot even say that the pope who raped, murdered, and engaged in homosexuality and bestiality was a monster?

>>878316
Protestant. Born Catholic, then went Protty, then back to Catholicism. It's all Christianity, though one is more true than the others, apostate.

>>878341

You have literally no idea what becoming a Christian entails.

>>878335
He was alive for a while after his baptism, and baptism near death was the norm then

>>878353
Lol

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There was only one true christian and he died on the cross

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>>878335
>most of the evil
Protestants keep preaching about all this evil, but I have yet to see how converting all of Europe to Christendom and out of paganism is somehow evil. Please, let me know how evil the Church is in what She teaches. inb4 you preach about some bad pope's sins again

>>878339
his actions were monstrous, I will not reduce myself to calling any man a "monster" if i can so help it. You should do likewise

>>878353
Enlighten me, apostate.

>>878355
Arius, a heretic, could no more save Constantine than he could save himself.

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>>878358
what about the other guy who died on the cross?

>>878361
The slaughter of 68,000,000 + people comes into play for that answer.

He's a monster, and you're an idiot.

>>878364
You call me apostate, and ask me to enlighten you.

>>878361
>inb4 you preach about some bad pope's sins again

But he would be coherent, protestantism is about protest. Protesting Rome and the pope in particular.
It's literally their tradition.

>>878367
That's an asinine statement. Is it real?

The one thief did what the bible said to do in order to be saved, and the other did not.

>>878372
We have no such tradition.

We only warn people seeking God not to fall into the same trap the papists have fallen into.

We warn the blind not to follow the blind.

>>878371
What are you? Protestant or Catholic? You sound like you were insulting both. If you're Orthodox, the Catholics (me) have good relations with them.

And settle down sport, I'm teasing. You did insult my very faith, which is the center of my soul, so consider that.

>>878323

"There is no set list of ex cathedra teachings, but that’s because there are only two, and both are about Mary: her Immaculate Conception (declared by Pope Pius IX in 1854 and grandfathered in after the First Vatican Council’s declaration of papal infallibility in 1870) and her bodily Assumption into heaven (declared by Pope Pius XII in 1950).

Both are heretical, idolatrous, blasphemous abominations.

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>>878370
>68,000,000+ people slaughtered by a pope
I'm learning a lot of /his/tory today

Btw you're proving yourself to be a true follower of Christ.... I'm an idiot and he's a monster. Got it.

Repent, apostate.

>>878381
I am a born again Christian.

Of course the right leg of Rome gets along with the left leg of Rome; both are pagan, and both are lost. One just has 1 pope, and the other 5. Neither has a clue about salvation.

I found your post ironic, not insulting.

>>878381
He's a fundamentalist protestant. He thinks the Catholic church is a Babylonian death cult and that the earth is 6000 years old.

>>878383
>this is what protestants are reduced to believing
I will ask Mary, Mother of God, to pray for your poor soul

>>878385
Cartoons about things Jesus never said.

The slaughter of the innocents is something you're going to have to dig for. It's been around for centuries, and fought vigorously by the murderers. It's also in the bible, concerning the woman, the city, who rules over the kings of the earth.

Rome.

>>878388
Lol dude. I was a "born again" too dude. The doctrine is heavily flawed. Stop shitting on Rome and actually try and understand it and you'll see as I have it's better.

You can't have a perfect body of Christians. Man is susceptible to the same things no matter what his station is and the more organized he becomes, the more chance corruption has to sneak in. Plain and simple. Pride goeth before a fall.

>>878398
I'm still waiting for that history lesson about the "slaughter of the innocents"

Please, I'd like to know. I'm about to be baptized Roman Catholic and I don't want to join a murderous cult. I'm pretty sure you're wrong, but feel free to post any information at all backing up your claims.

>>878393
Correct.

I'm glad to have at least one person left behind to say "that son of a bitch was right."

>>878123

What's wrong with that? They are blessing them so that they may only be used righteously.

>>878393
On /christian/ we're usually safe from them, it took me by surprise.

>>878397
We don't believe that. Papists believe that. It's infallible ex cathedra statements from popes who were not declared anti popes, or excommunicated, or whatever.

It's complete nonsense that a man 1800 years after the fact says he knows Mary ascended alive into heaven.

It's more complete nonsense to say that Mary was somehow immaculately conceived, and born free of all sin.

>>878408
Fundies get out reeeeeeconvert

>>878408
except I think those positions are insane

>>878400
I don't want a perfect body of Christians. I know you were never a born again Christian because the Spirit in me does not agree with the spirit in you.

Because you do not understand, and cannot understand, that becoming a new creation in Christ Jesus is a permanent transformation, you have signed up for membership in a church.

So sad.

>>878407
The Roman Catholic Religion viewed in the light of Prophecy and History, New York, Charles K. Moore, 1843, page 60.

And later in the same work,

The best writers enumerate fifty millions of Christians destroyed by fire, and the sword, and the inquisition; and fifteen millions of natives of the American continent and islands; and three millions of Moors in Europe, and one million and a half of Jews. Now, here are sixty-nine millions and five hundred thousands of human beings, murdered by “the woman of the Roman hills, who was drunk with the blood of the saints.” And this horrid list does not include those of her own subjects, who fell in the crusades in Asia, and in her wars against European Christians, and in South America!

-- page 97.

I can only lead you to water. I cannot make you drink.

>>878422
With your current knowledge, yes.

After the fact, "holy shit that son of a bitch was right".

>>878427
Loving the holier than thou attitude typical of a well-intentioned but completely wrong-headed fundamentalist.

Lucifer fell. "If you fall away from Christ, you never had him to begin with" is false.

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>>878417
>1800 years after the fact
objectively incorrect
>complete nonsense
Yes, it's nonsense to claim that Mary's womb had to be free of sin in order to conceive GOD HIMSELF. Yes, complete hogwash, I fundamentally agree!

>>878407
There perished under pope Julian 200,000 Christians: and by the French massacre, on a moderate calculation, in 3 months, 100,000. Of the Waldenses there perished 150,000; of the Albigenses, 150,000. There perished by the Jesuits in 30 years only 900,000. The Duke of Alva destroyed by the common hangman alone, 36,000 persons; the amount murdered by him is set down by Grotius at 100,000! There perished by the fire, and tortures of the Inquisition in Spain, Italy, and France 150,000. … In the Irish massacres there perished 150,000 Protestants!
To sum up the whole, the Roman Catholic church has caused the ruin, and destruction of a million and a half of Moors in Spain; nearly two millions of Jews South America in Europe. In Mexico, and , including the islands of Cuba and St. Domingo, fifteen millions of Indians, in 40 years, fell victims to popery. And in Europe, and the East Indies, and in America, 50 millions of Protestants, at least, have been murdered by it!
Thus the church of Rome stands before the world, “the woman in scarlet, on the scarlet colored Beast.” A church claiming to be Christian, drenched in the blood of sixty-eight millions, and five hundred thousand human beings!

-- W. C. Brownlee, Letters in the Roman Catholic controversy, 1834, pp. 347-348.

>>878432
>Someone makes up numbers and puts them in a book. Presents no original sources to back them up

> Its in a book so its true!

>>878439
Lucifer never had Christ.

>>878422
Fundies make millions out of insane people.

>>878442
>objectively incorrect

Are you serious? You want me to say 1854 years after the fact? 1870 years after the fact?

It is complete nonsense to say that Mary was anything but a normal Jewish girl betrothed to a normal Jewish man.

>>878445
It has been calculated that, from the time of the conquest of Granada until 1609, three millions of Arabs were exiled from Spanish soil; and never have the plains of Valencia, Murcia and Granada recovered the flourishing aspect that they wore when cultivated by their former masters. The decree of 1609 was as fatal to Spain as the revocation of the Edict of Nantes was to France nearly a hundred years later.

-- Williams, Henry Smith, The Historian’s History of the World, vol. 8, p. 259.

In 1492, persecution was begun against the Jews, of whom 500,000 were expelled from Spain and their wealth confiscated. In seventy years the population of Spain was reduced from 10,000,000 to 6,000,000 by the banishment of Jews, Moors and Morescoes (“Christianized” Moors), the most wealthy and intelligent of the inhabitants of that country.

-- Cushing B. Hassell, History of the Church of God, Chapter XV.

>>878432
>Roman Catholic Church is responsible for wiping out native americans
>Native americans and others mentioned are "saints" as spoken of in the Apocalypse
Do people actually believe this?

>>878457
Do you not recognize bible verses? Did the quotation marks not give you a hint?

Revelation 17
I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

50,000,000 dead Christians = 50,000,000 dead saints killed by the Whore of Babylon.

>>878456
Again you quote books that no one has taken seriously for a hundred years. The numbers of dead you give are not even physically possible, except for the Americans who mostly died of plagues, not murder

>>878465
History disappears?

>>878451
>normal jewish girl is the mother of God
>nothing special about her at all
Protestant theology strikes again

1800 is late. It was at least half a millennium before that. And the tradition of the Church since antiquity.

>>878462
I understood perfectly well. I think you're not understanding my point -- NATIVE AMERICANS WEREN'T CHRISTIANS. What kind of logic is this? Not to mention that the Catholic Church is not responsible for killing off native americans, America was settled by protestants. Can we at least agree that America was settled by protestants? Is this /his/ or /b/ ????

>>878469
History is subject to constant revision as we obtain more complete information.

>>878473
Jesus was fully human. He was not born of some sort of god woman.

Romans 3:23: For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Catholic Bible: Romans 3:23: For all except Mary have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God.

Show me where Mary's ascension and immaculate conception was first done. I already gave you the popes, and the year, from a catholic source. uscatholics dot org.

Oh, wait, you can't do anything but lie, can you.

>>878473
Are you insane? You gloss over the murder of 50,000,000 saints to say that the murdered natives weren't saints?

And therefore they don't count?

Truly you are a genocidal maniac!

>>878477
History is subject to revision?

Are you sure? Are you sane?

>>878511
>Are you sure?

I have a degree is history so I am pretty sure I am right.

Am I right in guessing you do not have a degree in history?

>>878442
But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

This is not in the bible, at all. How would any pope say this is true, and not only true, but infallibly true, if it's not in the bible?

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I WANT THE PROTTIES TO LEAVE

>>878515
Your degree in history has taught you that history can be revised to suit the needs of the current society.

Your degree in history is useless.

If you had any consciousness about what I asked, you would say that modern understanding of historical events are subject to revision.

History is not.

>>878498
Let go of your anger and try to discern with an honest heart. I'll use scripture to support my position that Mary is special among women and that it is true and good that we should honor her as the mother of God.

The Uniqueness of Mary as the Mother of God

Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says "I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed." This refers to Jesus (the "emnity") and Mary (the "woman"). The phrase "her seed" (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

Gen 3:15 / Rev. 12:1 - the Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling satan. This points to the power of the woman with the seed and teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve.

John 2:4, 19:26 - Jesus calls Mary "woman" as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman's seed will crush the serpent's skull.

Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23 - a virgin (the Greek word used is "parthenos") will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means "God is with us." John 1:14 - God in flesh dwelt among us. Mary is the Virgin Mother of God.

Matt. 2:11 - Luke emphasizes Jesus is with Mary His Mother, and the magi fall down before both of them, worshiping Jesus.

Luke 1:35 - the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the "Theotokos").

Luke 1:28 - "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you." These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.

>>878523
When we do leave, mark the day.

84 months and 75 days from that day, the Lord will return.

>>878517
>>878498
>>878525
Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Luke 1:38 - Mary's fiat is "let it be done to me according to thy word." Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.

Luke 1:42 - "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus." The phrase "blessed are you among women" really means "you are most blessed of all women." A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary.

Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth's use of "Mother of my Lord" (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used "Adonai" which means Lord God) is the equivalent of "Holy Mary, Mother of God" which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus' Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus' human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).

Luke 1:44 - Mary's voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth's womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.

Luke 1:46 - Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.

>>878524
If you had any consciousness about what I asked, you would say that modern understanding of historical events are subject to revision.

History is not.

nit picking. you know very well what I meant. And no it cannot be revised simply for the needs of society, but only in response to better arguments and evidence

>>878531
Luke 1:48 - Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the "Hail Mary" prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?

Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary "the woman with the redeemer." This is because "co" is from the Latin word "cum" which means "with." Therefore, "co-redemptrix" means "woman with the redeemer." Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

Eph. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - the word "saints" (in Hebrew "qaddiysh") means "holy" ones. So Mary is called Holy, the greatest Saint of all.

Luke 2:35 - Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary's soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus' suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son's suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.

Luke 2:19,51 - Mary kept in mind all these things as she pondered them in her heart. Catholics remember this by devoting themselves to Mary's Immaculate Heart and all the treasures and wisdom and knowledge contained therein.

>>878507
I'm still waiting to hear how Native Americans are considered saints? They weren't even Christian?

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>>878529

>he actually believes in pre-tribulation

>>878525
Scripture says that Mary is blessed among women because she was chosen to bear the Messiah, an honor any Jewish mother would want.

That's it. End of story.

1. The woman is Mary, the virgin birth the meaning of her seed, and the enmity is real.

2. Revelation 12, the woman is Israel. Complete and total eschatological failure on your part to call her Mary.

"Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars."

Genesis 37:9 Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, “Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me.”

The eleven stars, plus Joseph, are the 12 tribes of Israel.

The woman in labor is not Mary. She is Israel.

>>878498
>>878525
>>878531
>>878533

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep-AN7U4OLg

>>878555
Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

>>878572
Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rev 12:1 - the "woman" that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary's offspring are those who keep God's commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary's offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

>>878573
Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.

Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.

>>878443
William Craig Brownlee (1784 – February 10, 1860) was an American clergyman, professor of languages and author

totally not coming from a biased anti-catholic author

>>878525
3. Yes, Jesus knew Mary was a woman. Yes, Jesus crushed Goliath's skull (bet you didn't know that).

4. Yes, Mary was a virgin and gave birth to Jesus.

5. Yes, Jesus lived with Mary. The magi bowing to her means nothing, if it even happened.

6. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Mary is not the mother of God. God is eternal.

7. Gabriel saying Mary was blessed, i.e. full of grace, to be chosen to bear the Messiah, is true. It did not mean she was sinless. If you pray that while you rub your beads, you are doing what an angel did, not what God said.

You might take note that MARY WAS ALIVE AND ON EARTH when Gabriel talked to her.

>>878071
>Catholicism was largely responsible for the rise of western civilization

not sure if stupid or trolling

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>>878612
>Mary is the mother of Jesus
>Mary is not the mother of God
wait a minute.... are you a JW?

>>878531

1. Mary was full of grace, yes. And Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. I don't see you praying to Noah. And no, it does not infer anything other than what it says; that Mary was blessed to be chosen to bear the Messiah. There is no past perfection of a sinless Mary. She was not made perfect by the grace of God until she died.

2. Mary agreed to bear the Messiah. She is not worthy of veneration. At all. She was a 14 year old Jewish girl. Go find a 14 year old Jewish girl, venerate her, and note how completely ridiculous you feel.

3. What twisted convoluted statements. Only one woman could bear the Messiah, it was mary, she was the most blessed. That has nothing to do with being able to speak to the dead, which is what you are attempting to do.

4. Again, God is eternal, and did not rely upon Mary for His existence. You seem to not understand that Jesus came down from heaven in the flesh. But then how could you, being buried this deep in the whore of babylon.

5. John leaped in the womb because the Holy Spirit came upon Elizabeth, and into him.

6. Mary has never heard any of your prayers, because she is not God.

>>878621
not sure if uneducated or hostile protestant

http://www.foresthomechurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/How-the-Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization-in-Science-by-Woods1.pdf

>>878532
You don't mean what you say, and say what you mean? How am I supposed to interpret your posts, if they are this vague and ambiguous?

>>878533
1. Yes, Mary was blessed. She is not divine. She does not hear prayers. There have been Christians far longer than there have been Catholics. Centuries longer.

2. You elevating Mary to Jesus level is idolatry, blasphemy, and an abomination.

3. All Christians are saints. And precious few papists.

4. Mary did not enjoy watching her eldest son tortured to death, no. Mary plays no role in your redemption, as you are not saved. You are not saved, because you are relying on mary to play some role in your redemption.

5. Devoting yourself to the Queen of Heaven makes you a pagan, not a Christian.

>>878541
I'm still waiting to hear how the blood of 50,000,000 saints didn't slake the whore's thirst.

>>878643
You knew I meant "our understanding of history" which is really inseparable from "history" as an academic discipline.

But if you would rather play word games than discuss things...

>>878551
So did Paul, and so does God.

>>878561
Thanks, but I'm not really in a place where I can watch and listen to videos.

>>878642
What you gonna do, post a million more articles written by Catholics?

The western civilization was there before Catholics, and after Catholics, and will still be there when there when the Roman Catholic Church falls apart.

>>878572
1. Mary is not the ark of the covenant. The ark of the covenant holds death. She was not pure at all; she was a sinner like the rest of us. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Your beliefs violate scripture.
2. The ark is death.
3. The ark is death.
4. The ark is death.
5. The ark is death.
6. The ark is death.
7. The ark is death.

You are equating Mary with death. And the ark isn't the ark; it's a copy of the real ark in heaven.

>>878573
The woman is Israel, and I'm getting tired of this nonsense.

>>878577
Again, the woman is Israel. Mary did not flee a flood that swallowed up the chosen people.

The earth groans because it is broken and cursed.

>>878196
>We're only dumbfounded that you think her name is Mary.
Christ is King.
His Kingship is in Succession of David.
Kings in the line of David often had multiple wives.
None of these wives could be called his queen.
The Kind only had one mother.
She was thusly declared the Queen for that reason.
In the monarchy of Israel, the Queen was the King's mother.
Mary is Christ's mother.
Christ is King.
Ergo Mary is the Queen of Christ's Kingdom.

>>878590
Is he wrong?

>>878640
Catholics don't pray to Mary, we ask Mary in heaven to pray for us on Earth

>She is not worthy of veneration
The Blessed Virgin is worthy of veneration (definition: great respect, reverence)

>>878657
1. No one said she was divine
2. No one elevated Mary to Jesus' level
3. Saints are those who have died and are now in heaven.
4. No one said Mary enjoyed watching her ONLY son tortured to death. Mary plays a large role as in that she is one of the parents of Jesus Christ. Christ is the only redeemer. Catholics do not regard mary as their redeemer.
5. Catholics aren't pagans

I was honestly hoping to have some kind of substantial conversation, but you've once again reduced yourself to libel and slander. Good day, sir.

Jesus Christ loves and honors His mother, and you should do the same.

>>878622
And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him.

Didn't you infer the magi bowed to Mary?

God is eternal.

How could Mary give birth to the eternal?

>>878661
It's not a word game. It's a fundamental difference in our worldviews.

I know God recounted history accurately, and I know men do not.

you think that if enough men recount something in a similar fashion, that's good enough to be counted on to be true. I do not.

>>878696
see >>878622

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>>878260

My pastor said Mary was actually greater than Jesus because she had to sacrifice her son, which would have been a harder commitment than Jesus sacrificing his life.

>>878686
No Hebrew mother of a King was the Queen.

1 Kings
Bathsheba therefore went to King Solomon, to speak to him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her and bowed down to her, and sat down on his throne and had a throne set for the king’s mother; so she sat at his right hand. Then she said, “I desire one small petition of you; do not refuse me.”

>set for the king’s mother
>set for the king’s mother

>>878264
Cute annecdote.

Children have vomited inside schools. Is the education system immoral and deserving of complete destruction and disregard?

Also, children are more likely to get molested by teachers than by priests.

>>878659
Please prove that 50,000,000 saints died at the hand of the Catholic Church. Start with defining "saint"

>>878275
So then who were the Queens in the Kingship of David?

>>878692
You pray to Mary to pray for you. No difference. Nothing happens. She cannot hear you.

1. If you think she can hear you, and a million other people at once, you think she is divine.
2. Co-Mediatrix literally elevates her to Jesus level.
3. Saints are christians, living and dead, and not papists.
4. Mary had many other sons.
Mark 6:3 Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?” So they were offended at Him.

Again, what you believe violates scripture.

5. Catholics are absolutely pagans. Here's what pagans did, before Catholicism was created. Tell me if anything sounds familiar.

After the pseudo-conversion of Constantine, thousands of pagans were admitted to the church by baptism alone with out true conversion. They brought with them pagan rites which they boldly introduced into the church with Christian terminology, thus corrupting the primitive faith.

Even the noted Catholic prelate and theologian, Cardinal Newman, tells us that Constantine introduced many things of pagan origin: "We are told in various ways by Eusebius, that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own...

The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin"

This unholy alliance also allowed the continuance of the pagan custom of eating and drinking the literal flesh and literal blood of their god. This is actually how transubstantiation entered the professing church.

>>878707
No, I'm not a JW. They think Jesus is Michael the Archangel.

God is eternal. God did not depend upon Mary for His existence. Jesus came down from heaven in the flesh; He pre-existed Mary.

By an eternity.

>>878280
>>878287
>infallibility=impeccability maymay

Hey jackass, papal infallibility means the Pope can't declare Jesus to have never died on the Cross and say it's truth. It doesn't mean he can't be a douchebag who kicks puppies.

>>878726
All Christians are saints.

The number is likely higher than 50,000,000.

>>878123
Catholics have blessed weapons as well.

>>878311
It never fucking was Babylon.

Jews called Rome "Babylon" in the same way Black Slaves called their plantations and the South as a whole "Egypt."
But only a complete retard would say South Carolina was colonized by ancient Egyptians.

>>878733
Let's see, bible, queen....Queen of Sheba, Queen Vashti and Esther of Persia, Queen Tahpenes of Egypt, the pagan Queen of Heaven, who is an abomination to the Lord.....

Don't see any wife of David being called Queen.

>>878725
>le Catholic statistics

It is infinitely more condemnable for a priest to molest a child than for a teacher. You're a Catholic, so I don't expect you to understand that.

>>878755
Two popes uttered blasphemies unto the Most High, by elevating Mary to the divine.

It suffices to say that the Whore of Babylon deserves her judgments.

>>878770
Two different things. The Jews called Rome "Babylon" so they could disparage it; the slaves called the south "Egypt" so they could glom onto the slavery of the Jews in Egypt.

If you want an example of something being called Sodom, and Egypt, in the bible, it would be Jerusalem, and the world.

Not Babylon.

>>878323
>ex Cathedra is in constant effect

No it isn't, not anymore that the US Presidents' Executive powers. And when it is invoked, it's explicitly made known and only for clarification and definition of Church teachings. Not willy nilly "let's make bestiality moral now." like you clearly think it is.

>>878780
It's also not true. They don't care about that either. Nor has any teacher's association been found guilty of moving pedophiles from school to school to school, where they victimize more and more and more people, never turning them over to law enforcement.

>>878787

I posted the only two examples above, where some pope 1800 years later says that Mary ascended directly into heaven without dying.

Who was that set to take care of Mary again? John the Beloved.

When did John die? 97 AD.

How old would Mary have been, had she outlived John?

117 years old.

Might John have written if A BLOODY MIRACLE CONCERNING HIS WARD MARY HAD HAPPENED???

Why yes, yes he would have.

It is false, and "ex cathedra" is nothing more than the emperor's new clothes.

>>878787
>ex Cathedra is in constant effect
I never said nor implied this.

>>878802
The effect is not constant? Some days it's more true than others?

>>878813
In general, exemption or immunity from liability to error or failure; in particular in theological usage, the supernatural prerogative by which the Church of Christ is, by a special Divine assistance, preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of FAITH and MORALS

Thus, it is in effect when the pope issues decrees concerning faith and morals

>>878758
Okay, now prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the Roman Catholic Church was directly responsible for ALL of the persecutions that you claim they did.

>>878831
>>878758

or even just give a reasonable ASSERTION of how this could possibly be true

What a laughable claim

>>878819
In general, it is a complete and utter lie that any man can be infallible at any time.

Grabbing power is not a "supernatural prerogative". It's just a power grab.

>>878831
What percentage of that horrorshow would you find acceptable behavior from "the church that Jesus started"?

80%? You're okay with slaughtering 40,000,000 Christians?

25%? 12,500,000 murdered Christians is okay?

>>878838
I'm not laughing.

>>878838
For example, it has been estimated by careful and reputed historians of the Catholic Inquisition that 50 million people were slaughtered for the crime of "heresy" by Roman persecutors between the A.D. 606 and the middle of the 19th century.
This is the number cited by John Dowling, who published the classic "History of Romanism" in 1847 (book VIII, chapter 1, footnote 1). Only seven years after its first printing, it could be said of Dowling’s book, "it has already obtained a circulation much more extensive than any other large volume ever published in America, upon the subject of which it treats; or perhaps in England, with the exception of Fox’s Book of Martyrs." Clark’s Martyrology counts the number of Waldensian martyrs during the first half of the 13th century in France alone at two million. From A.D. 1160-1560 the Waldensians which dwelt in the Italian Alps were visited with 36 different fierce persecutions that spared neither age nor sex (Thomas Armitage, A History of the Baptists, "Post-Apostolic Times - The Waldensians," 1890). They were almost completely destroyed as a people and most of their literary record was erased from the face of the earth. From the year 1540 to 1570 "it is proved by national authentic testimony, that nearly one million of Protestants were publicly put to death in various countries in Europe, besides all those who were privately destroyed, and of whom no human record exists" (J.P. Callender, Illustrations of Popery, 1838, p. 400). Catholic historian Vergerius admits gleefully that during the Pontificate of Pope Paul IV (1555-1559) "the Inquisition alone, by tortures, starvation, or the fire, murdered more than 150,000 Protestants." These are only small samples of the brutality which was poured out upon "dissident" Christians by the Roman Catholic Church during the Inquisition.

He's not laughing either.

Neither is God.

>>878612
>Yes, Jesus crushed Goliath's skull
>GOLIATH
What?

>Mary the mother of Jesus
>Mary is not the the mother of God
So wait, are you saying Jesus isn't God?

>>878678
>The ark of the covenant holds death
The OLD one maybe, but we are talking about the NEW Ark.

My OLD toaster bears no heat anymore, does that mean my NEW toaster must be the same?

>>878709
Then he was a heretic and you should've called him out on it.

And if you say "yeah and he was Catholic!" No. Catholics don't have pastors or use the term pastor. We use priests as that's what they are.

>>878719
Wasn't that what I was saying though?

>>878861
Fundamentalist writers claim the existence of the Inquisition proves the Catholic Church could not be the Church founded by our Lord. They use the Inquisition as a good—perhaps their best—bad example. They think this shows that the Catholic Church is illegitimate. At first blush it might seem so, but there is only so much mileage in a ploy like that; most people see at once that the argument is weak. One reason Fundamentalists talk about the Inquisition is that they take it as a personal attack, imagining it was established to eliminate (yes, you guessed it) the Fundamentalists themselves.

They identify themselves with the Catharists (also known as the Albigensians), or perhaps it is better to say they identify the Catharists with themselves. They think the Catharists were twelfth-century Fundamentalists and that Catholics did to them what they would do to Fundamentalists today if they had the political strength they once had.

This is a fantasy. Fundamentalist writers take one point—that Catharists used a vernacular version of the Bible—and conclude from it that these people were "Bible Christians." In fact, theirs was a curious religion that apparently (no one knows for certain) came to France from what is now Bulgaria. Catharism was a blend of Gnosticism, which claimed to have access to a secret source of religious knowledge, and of Manichaeism, which said matter is evil. The Catharists believed in two gods: the "good" God of the New Testament, who sent Jesus to save our souls from being trapped in matter; and the "evil" God of the Old Testament, who created the material world in the first place. The Catharists’ beliefs entailed serious—truly civilization-destroying—social consequences.

>>878906
>>878861
Marriage was scorned because it legitimized sexual relations, which Catharists identified as the Original Sin. But fornication was permitted because it was temporary, secret, and was not generally approved of; while marriage was permanent, open, and publicly sanctioned.

The ramifications of such theories are not hard to imagine. In addition, ritualistic suicide was encouraged (those who would not take their own lives were frequently "helped" along), and Catharists refused to take oaths, which, in a feudal society, meant they opposed all governmental authority. Thus, Catharism was both a moral and a political danger.

Even Lea, so strongly opposed to the Catholic Church, admitted: "The cause of orthodoxy was the cause of progress and civilization. Had Catharism become dominant, or even had it been allowed to exist on equal terms, its influence could not have failed to become disastrous." Whatever else might be said about Catharism, it was certainly not the same as modern Fundamentalism, and Fundamentalist sympathy for this destructive belief system is sadly misplaced.

>>878866

Golgatha, Hill of the Skull. The skull of Goliath of Gath, killed by young David, who cut off his head and stored it right here, at Calvary. The seed of the devil did indeed bruise Jesus' heel, but Jesus crushed his skull.

Jesus is God.
God is eternal.
Mary is not.

Are all modern papists Arians?

>>878910
it is helpful to point out that it is easy to see how those who led the Inquisitions could think their actions were justified. The Bible itself records instances where God commanded that formal, legal inquiries—that is, inquisitions—be carried out to expose secret believers in false religions. In Deuteronomy 17:2–5 God said: "If there is found among you, within any of your towns which the Lord your God gives you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it; then you shall inquire diligently [note that phrase: "inquire diligently"], and if it is true and certain that such an abominable thing has been done in Israel, then you shall bring forth to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones."

It is clear that there were some Israelites who posed as believers in and keepers of the covenant with Yahweh, while inwardly they did not believe and secretly practiced false religions, and even tried to spread them (cf. Deut. 13:6–11). To protect the kingdom from such hidden heresy, these secret practitioners of false religions had to be rooted out and expelled from the community. This directive from the Lord applied even to whole cities that turned away from the true religion (Deut. 13:12–18). Like Israel, medieval Europe was a society of Christian kingdoms that were formally consecrated to the Lord Jesus Christ. It is therefore quite understandable that these Catholics would read their Bibles and conclude that for the good of their Christian society they, like the Israelites before them, "must purge the evil from the midst of you" (Deut. 13:5, 17:7, 12). Paul repeats this principle in 1 Corinthians 5:13.

>>878880
If it's like the old one, yes.

There is no biblical foundation to compare the ark of the covenant to Mary. The new covenant has nothing to do with Mary; she needed it in order to be saved herself.

>>878777
Because the wives weren't Queens in Israel. The mother of the King was, the Queen-Mother.

>>878783
She is not Divine.

If we really believe she was Divine, you could cite it in our Cathechism.

>>878861
Okay, now give me something made by ACTUAL reputable historians, and not from blatant fundamentalist pastors that obviously had everything to gain from accusing those that disputed them

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With the Church becoming the most cohesive power in Western society, technology disappeared. Extensive aqueduct and plumbing systems vanished, after all, Catholics taught that all aspects of the flesh should be reviled and therefore discouraged washing as much as possible. Disease became commonplace as sanitation and hygiene deteriorated with the disappearance of toilets and indoor plumbing. Epidemics decimated towns and villages for hundreds of years.

In the scientific community the losses were monumental. The burning of books and repression of intellectual pursuit by the Church set humanity back as much as two millennia in its scientific understanding. Pythagoras had come up with the idea that the earth revolved around the sun in the sixth century B.C.,Aristarchus had outlined the heliocentric theory and Eratosthenes had measured the circumference of the Earth by the third century B.C.

It would not be until the sixteenth century C.E. that Copernicus would reintroduce the theory that the earth revolves around the sun. Galileo was tried by the Inquisition in Rome when he attempted to promote the heliocentric theory in the seventeenth century, and the Church would only revoke its condemnation of Galileo in 1965.

>>878920
So you want to ask a different question. Does Mary being Jesus' mother confer deity to her?

The answer is obviously no.

There is only one Queen of Heaven mentioned in the bible, and that is the Babylonian pagan Queen of Heaven, Nimrod's wife, Semiramis.

If you worship Mary as the Queen of Heaven, you are in fact worshiping Semiramis.

>>878943
>Citing Jack Chick
HA HA!

>>878936
Co-Mediatrix.

Jesus is divine.

You think she is divine, not me. You think she can hear a billion prayers at once, not me.

Difference between you and I is that I will actually meet her, and you will not.

>>878938
Four, five, six sources.....GIBSMEMOAH!

Hey, I have an idea. If the area interests you, YOU research it.

If you're stupid enough to want catholic historians to document their genocidal ways, I don't hold much hope for you in this life, or the next.

>>878943
Based Jack Chick.

>>878974
How about some modern, peer reviewed scholars who support these numbers.

Maybe because their ain't any?

>>878965
>Co-Mediatrix.

I dont think that is even official doctrine, just something a few people are pushing for

>>878938
A Theological Dictionary, Containing Definitions of All Religious Terms, Volumes 1-2.

Look for the number 50 million.

>>878974
Burden of proof is on you to prove the positive.
As I said. Those that you cited were all fundamentalist pastors who had everything to gain in discrediting those that they didn't like.
It's like citing fucking Jack Chick comics as a reputable source.
Why should I believe them?

>>879009
We're talking about your alleged Catholic death toll. not the number given in revelations

>>879002
In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word."439 But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise "they were both naked, and were not ashamed,"440 inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age,441 and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen

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With the rise of the Christian church came a severe economic collapse throughout the western world. By stigmatizing usury, which made funding economic ventures extremely difficult, they left the doors wide open for the Jew to amass enormous wealth and get control of the money system.

Ancient academies of learning were closed and education for anyone outside of the Church came to an end.One of the world’s greatest libraries in Alexandria, said to have housed 700,000 rolls, were burned down by the Christians in 391, together with all the books of the Gnostic Basilides, Porphyry’s 36 volumes, papyrus rolls of 27 schools of the Mysteries, and 270,000 ancient documents gathered by Ptolemy Philadelphus. This was the Christian holocaust against education and learning in action.

In 398 bishops were forbidden to even read the books of gentiles by the Fourth Council of Carthage. Once again the question arises, why the need for the suppression of education and learning?

The answer is simple, a new world order of control was being implemented

>>878895
After what order?

>>879027
;442 so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled.443 For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first.444 And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, "instead of fathers, children have been born unto thee."445 For the Lord, having been born "the First-begotten of the dead,"446 and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die.447 Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.

>>878901
The Queen Mother of England is the Queen; the mother of the king in Israel is the king's mother.

>>878906
At first, second, third, and fourth blush, too.

>>879027
If its not in the catechism, and there is no statement from a church council or the pope, than it is not official

>>878906
If I understand your genocidal argument, any person not worshiping as you want them to deserves to die.

And you think Jesus said that?

>>878910
I would have been one of the Waldensian "heretics" killed by Rome, so you'll find no sympathy here, papist.

>>878912
>The skull of Goliath of Gath, killed by young David, who cut off his head and stored it right here, at Calvary.
Citation please. This is a nifty tidbit if true.

And I'd reckon you are the Arian (albeit unintentional) in your assertions.

Yes, Mary is Jesus' mother and God is Eternal, but Jesus is also the Son of God the Father. Is Jesus a creation of the Father then? Or like how you did not exist before your father that the same must be said of Christ?

You are asserting that for Mary to be God's Mother, she must be the Mother of both the Father and Spirit as well. But no one believes this. She is the mother of God the Son, as God the Son incarnated within her and was born by her. The entire 2nd Person of the Trinity became her Son and only this 2nd Person of the Trinity did so.

By claiming that Mary isn't the Mother of God, you make assertions about the Nature of Christ more than you do Mary. Most notably, that the Divinity of Christ is seperate from the Humanity of Christ. That the only aspect she mothered was His Body and Blood, that in His Conception and Birth, He was not God as though that implies He was created.

>>878917
That genocidal maniacs think their actions are justified by God makes them evil genocidal maniacs.

>>878918
Bitch did you not see that huge dump of Scriptural basis for her "Arkhood?"

>>878920
Bathsheba was not Solomon's wife dude.

>>878938
Any historian that demonstrates how many millions of Christians the Whore of Babylon has murdered you automatically consider disreputable, because you love lies, and the maker of lies.

>>879011
How about you prove one single fact on a Jack Chick cartoon is false first, before you dismiss them all?

Papists. So eager to put themselves under the boot of Rome. Hating freedom this much.

>>879017
They go hand in hand. The Whore of Babylon is drunk on the blood of the saints, and Mystery Babylon has murdered tens of millions of saints.

>>878959
And Jesus is King of Israel. Mary thusly gets all the roles and titles due to the Mother of the King of Israel.

The King's Mother is Queen. Jesus is the King of Heaven ergo Mary is Queen of Heaven.

And if some Canaanite Idolaters called one of their gods the King of Heaven, does that mean Christ ISNT the King of Heaven?

>>877709
Protestardism is the world's most voilent religion so this seems like a case of the pot calling the kettle black

>>879051
I came from the dirt; Jesus came down from heaven. Maybe you need to learn the difference before you call me Arian, Arius.

Jesus created the world. Jesus walked with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

Jesus did not start existing when Mary's egg was quickened by the Holy Spirit in power and glory.

>>879057
Yes, it was all very terrible. Some places she's the ark, some places David, some places David leaps instead of dances, some places are just hilariously wrong according to the scripture.

There is no ark of the New Covenant; the New Covenant is in the body and blood of Christ Jesus. After He arose. Not before.

>>879060
Yeah, she was his mother. And because he had many wives and only one woman could be Queen, the Mother of the King (in this case Bathsheba) was the Queen as the King had many wives but only one mother.

What did you think I was saying?

>>879078
Jesus is also the King of Kings. So I guess that makes Mary the what, Queen of all King of Kings?

Your attempts to elevate Mary over Jesus are anathema.

>>879083
Violent by getting killed in 8 digit numbers?

Holy fuck you're a fucking snowflake.

"The victims are the real violent ones!"

>>879098
Utter garbage and nonsense. And gee, I was right.

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>>879070
All Megafauna should be equally extinct and small dinosaurs should be as abundant as modern small livestock.

Protoceratops was the size of a modern sheep. If sheep and animals of similar size to sheep are not extinct, then neither should Protoceratops.

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ITT: Fundamentalists who claim that the Catholic Church is not the true church spoken of in scripture because there have been many sinners and sins committed throughout her history. Yes, those in the Church have committed grave errors and sins. No, that does not mean that she is not Holy Mother Church. We are all sinners. Even those who profess the True Catholic Faith.

>>879031
What do you mean "after what order?"

A Priest has the title of Priest. That's it.

>>879057
“We are told that Mary is paralleled with David (both ‘arise’ and ‘set out’), while other times Mary is paralleled with the Ark. Moreover, the statement of David in 2 Sam 6:9, ‘How can the ark of the LORD come to me?,’ changes the parallelism from Mary/David to David/Elizabeth . . . The fluctuation of the parallelism from Mary/Ark to Mary/David to David/Elizabeth to Elizabeth/Obed-Edom seems too capricious to be valid, and is for that reason alone rightly rejected by most scholars” (Eric Svendsen, Who is my Mother? The Role of and Status of the Mother of Jesus in the New Testament and Roman Catholicism, [Calvary Press, 2001], p. 168).

And from the bible:

But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Gee, it's almost as though the saved are going to rule and reign with Christ Jesus in heaven....

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>>879133
It is a misogynist and near criminal nightmare institution

It stood aside as the nations of Europe drifted into the bloodbath of the Great War

It drew up Concordats with Fascist dictators and with Hitler's genocidal Nazis

It instructed Catholic Parties to vote the way clear for National Socialism and Fascism to triumph

It remained almost silent as the Jews were isolated, persecuted, arrested, shot, and gassed in the Holocaust - even celebrating mass with the SS officers and men who ran the camps

It assisted fleeing war criminals - even men who ran the Genocides

It collaborated with Fascist regimes in Latin America that murdered their populations

It ignored child sexual abuse perpetrated by its clergy

It sheltered those who should answer for their actions or inaction at inquiries into pedophilia activity in the church and in its schools and orders

Your Church has done Europe quite enough damage - almost five hundred years exactly since Luther nailed his theses on the cathedral door and your church still has not reformed

>>879125
Like crocodiles, boas, alligators, and komodo dragons? Maybe coelecanths?

>>879133
What makes the Whore of Babylon not the real church is not that the Whore of Babylon is full of sinners.

It is that it is the Whore of Babylon, and has nothing to do with the real church but murder us.

>>879144
Priests have orders. Maybe look into your own religion.

Then maybe repent, and be saved.

>>879157
It did not stand aside as the nations drifted into the great war.
It did not instruct people to vote for the Nazis.
Can't say anything about the others.

>>879157
Nor is it capable of reforming; they are led by evil men.

>>879086
Um dude? You sound like you're espousing Modalism. Which is heresy.

No one is saying Jesus only started existing at conception, but that his already existing divinity incarnated and Mary became the Mother of Christ, and that included his divinity as it is wholly part of him.

>>879181
You said nothing of the first two.

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>>879157
>

>>879186
The bible is heresy to Catholics. Truly, it is.

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.

>>879186
Yup. Arian Queen of Heaven worshiper, damned to eternal flames.

>>879194
The Catholic Zentrum party voted in favor of Hitlers Enabling Act, Enabling him to become Dictator.

>>879194
And in between those two pictures, the '33 Concordat between the pope and Hitler, followed by a 99% voting record for Hitler in '36.

>>879166
And all these hundreds of others small dinosaurs?

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>>879197
The bible is the sacred word of God to Catholics

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man (Adam) was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man (Jesus Christ) is the Lord from heaven

P.S. The first woman was Eve who said No to God. The second Woman was Mary who said Yes to God.

God bless our Church, One, Holy, and Apostolic. Amen!

>>879175
Ah that kind of Order.

Okay, but that still doesn't tell me what you are trying to say.

>>879215
Those are the small ones. Very few of the big ones made it. I say very few, because some broad found some T-Rex soft tissue in Alaska, and Marco Polo wrote of one in China. The Loch Ness monster was likely a dino too.

See, before the word dinosaur was coined, people called such things dragons, serpents, winged serpents, etc. Those things are worldwide, and lived with men.

>>879070
Let's start with an easy one. Chick claimed that the Vatican directly ordered the assassinations of both Abraham Lincoln ("The Poor Pope?") and John Kennedy (The Big Betrayal"). There is no evidence to support these claims.
He also co-conspired with con-artist Alberto Rivera in order to create anti-Catholic sentiment via Rivera's false claims of being a Jesuit priest ("Alberto", "Double Cross", "The Godfathers"). There is absolutely zero evidense that Rivera was ever affiliated with the Jesuits/Society of Jesus.

>>879157
>Catholics are misogynists
>posts Chick Tract

Okay, following the premise set before me, where does Scripture say Women should be Priests?

>>879216
It is not, or they would not elevate their traditions to the same level as the sacred.

In effect, they pull down the sacred Word of God, also by adding heretical works to their canon, to the level of their traditions, making this current pope just as important to Christianity as Jesus.

It's a pagan religion loosely based on Christianity. That's all it is. A worldly, pagan religion that desires to rule the world.

God told EVE that HER seed would crush the serpent's head.

See how you don't care about the bible?

>>879220
The only valid order for priests in the Kingdom of God is the Order of Melchizedek, of which Jesus is the High Priest.

>>879232
Is the absence of evidence, evidence of absence?

>>879110
>completly dismissing everything and claiming to be right

How? Tell me where the non-sequitur occurred.

>>879101
And did Bathsheba, Queen of the reign of Solomon have elevated status over her son?

No she didn't and neither does Mary over her son King Jesus.

>>879185
So the leaders and big, influential names of Protestantism's many flavors are incapable of evil?

>>879232
>Rivera
>not hispanic
>not catholic

kek

>>879240
Okay, here you go
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Rivera
Also, burden of proof.

>>879245
>“We are told that Mary is paralleled with David (both ‘arise’ and ‘set out’), while other times Mary is paralleled with the Ark. Moreover, the statement of David in 2 Sam 6:9, ‘How can the ark of the LORD come to me?,’ changes the parallelism from Mary/David to David/Elizabeth . . . The fluctuation of the parallelism from Mary/Ark to Mary/David to David/Elizabeth to Elizabeth/Obed-Edom seems too capricious to be valid, and is for that reason alone rightly rejected by most scholars” (Eric Svendsen, Who is my Mother? The Role of and Status of the Mother of Jesus in the New Testament and Roman Catholicism, [Calvary Press, 2001], p. 168).
>And from the bible:
>But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
>Gee, it's almost as though the saved are going to rule and reign with Christ Jesus in heaven....

>>879252
So denounce her as Co-Mediatrix, and Queen of Heaven.

>>879259
They cannot be the Whore of Babylon. If you want to drag each and every one of them down, first ask this.

Which one calls himself the "Vicar" of Christ?

>>879262
Hmmmm, Jesuits pissed off at a guy who exposes the evil underbelly of the Whore of Babylon.

Ponderous.

>>879133
>doesn't matter if the Roman Catholic Church commits crimes against Christ
>we are all sinners anyway

lmao, Catholic logic

>>879270
Friendly reminder that Vatican Hill is NOT one of the Seven Hills of Rome. In fact, in ancient Roman times, there was no hill there at all. It was just a flat area that was made into an artificial hill later

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>>879276
So you got no proof at all?

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>>877709
>all this thread

>>879197
In what way? Heresy isn't a buzzword to be tossed around lightly. It's a serious accusation that the heresy in question is
a belief or opinion contrary to orthodox one.

If the Bible, the ENTIRE BIBLE is heresy, how does the Douay–Rheims Bible even exist? And if there is no truth in the Douay–Rheims, how does one account for parelell-if-translated-differently passages and books?

>>879207
There is no substance to that accusation to even make it a rebuttal. You are terrible at apologetics. I don't think you even know what Arianism is.

>>879276
OR, an infamous con artist wanted in several US states AND Spain for multiple fraud charges.
He was a fake.

>>879238
And He made his 12 Disciples Priests.
And Priests of Melchizedek could appoint other Priests.

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>>879276
Where's his 50000 thousand witnesses??

>>879265
>>Gee, it's almost as though the saved are going to rule and reign with Christ Jesus in heaven....
So then how can Mary not get that role?

>>879133
>ITT: Fundamentalists who claim that the Catholic Church is not the true church spoken of in scripture because there have been many sinners and sins committed throughout her history

Yeah lets just ignore the East Orthodox because you cant lump them in the nasty protestant box

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>>879322
>unpardonable
>note showing that this word means "cannot be pardoned"
>implying you wouldn't just naturally realize that and make the connection without needing it to be explained

Just a reminder of what kind of space cadets read these things unironically.
>pic unrelated

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>>879351
Jack seems to like to insult his own readers at times.

>>879292
True.
Rome, built on 7 hills, and ruling over the kings of the earth, is Babylon.
The Vatican is the Whore of Babylon.
Roman Catholicism is Mystery Babylon.

>>879367
>Rulling over the kings of the earth
U wot m8?

>>879296
Proof of what? Rivera's personal faith?

I just said find me something in a Jack Chick cartoon that is false, and you lead me to where Jesuits are pissed off at someone exposing their evil designs.

>>879341
They think Orthodoxy is just Catholicism in a mask, think it's totally accepting of everything they claim (like that guy ITT claiming Mary isn't the Mother of God), or that they just don't exist.

Lets count all the problems there, shall we?

>>879306
To you, heresy is not being a Roman Catholic. Your church murders heretics by the tens of millions.

To the saved, heresy is anything against the scriptures. Any lie of the devil in regards to the scriptures.

Go back and see where you called that verse in 1 Corinthians heresy.

>>879306

>Without Mary, Jesus would not exist.

kek

>>879385
>Your church murders heretics by the tens of millions.
Source?
And it's not like God don't do the same against the Canaanites.

>>879311
Don't know the dude. Just like the tracts. Haven't seen a wrong one yet.

>>879316
So, first you have no idea what order your priests are, and then you think you know something about the Order of Melchizedek.

>>879387
>quoting something not in the post

When did I actually say that? Let alone espouse it as my personal belief?

>>879322
The crowd in the comic? Are you serious?

>>879389
So you think Islam was created by the roman church to help them retake Jerusalem? (which was already in the church's hands at the time since the east and west church hadn't schism-ed yet)

>>879397
So how many Orders were there in ancient Israel?

>>879326
She has it now. Hundreds of millions of us will have it with her.

She is dead, and attempting to talk to her is necromancy.

>>879341
Left leg, right leg. Each ruled for a thousand years. Which one is worse?

>>879351
Look, that's funny, and at the risk of being condescending, which means to speak down to you, lighten up.

>>879406
Yes.
It would do with a single one really, just someone that may strengthen his claim that he actually talked for that crowd.
Because if there don't exist one single witnesses apart from him, whole that event is extremely unlikely.

>>879364
That looks like the confession of that Rivera fellow.

Why are whistleblowers not believed again? Why are the evil people believed over the whistleblowers?

Did not Malachi Martin, another Jesuit priest, also have exactly the same testimony of the worship of satan in the Vatican?

Is not a thing established on the witness of two or three?

>>879371
Insert pic of pope crowning king here.

>>879384
God is eternal.

Do try to understand what that implies.

>>879388
I've given about 6 in this thread. Read the thread.

>>879399

>God

>Dependent upon Jewish teenager for existence.

>>879425
You can find people to say anything,
If a witness is a known con men conveying impossible stories than it does not matter how many of them people like chick bring forward. Its alway

>>879407
Virtually every Christian reference in the qu'ran is from Catholicism, including the trinity being Father, Son, and Mary, including infancy gospels, including gnostic gospels, and including apocrypha.

>>879409
1. Levite.

>>879434
You just shouted numbers and names.

Not one reputable study.

>>879421
So you want to find out who was there, in that crowd, and go talk to them.

And you don't think that's pants on head retarded.

>>879440
Almost all those things were present in eastern Christianity, which is a lot closer to Arabia than Roman Christianity was.

>>879439
Can you? Find people to say you're well thought out.

Gee, why would the Jesuits have the motive to smear this fellow? How would the Jesuits have the power to smear this fellow?

IT'S NOT LIKE THEY'VE BEEN DOING IT FOR FIVE HUNDRED YEARS.

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>>879440
>the trinity being Father, Son, and Mary, including infancy gospels, including gnostic gospels, and including apocrypha.
>Catholic

What the hell are you on about?

>>879444
I know, I mean i talked to a crowd of 100'000 people yesterday. Some people demand I show evidence this crowd existed, but that's pants on head retarded.

>>879443
Books, encyclopedias, historical records, authors, works, pages.....nothing would do for you, because you don't want the truth. You want to be comfy.

Go away, and when you feel like it, google did the vatican kill tens of millions of christians? and get a half million things to look at.

>>879431
It means God has no Beginning or End.
Mary gave birth to Jesus.
Jesus is God.
Mary gave birth to God.

What are you taking as "Jesus didn't exist before being born?"

>>879447
The question was did agents of Rome start Islam, not who is closer to Mohammad geographically.

>>879450
That's circular logic. allegations that someone is a conman are not proof that what he says is true and their is a sinister plot to smear him.

>>879453
The bits of the bible and some catholic nonsense found in the qu'ran.

>>879460
I'm baffled why you think that's a reasonable argument.

>>879465
You say Mary gave Jesus existence.

I say Jesus gave Mary existence.

>>879466
>the question was did agents of Rome start Islam

and the answer is no. Rivera's story doesn't even make sense, Jerusalem was already Christian and in communion with Rome when Mohammad appeared

>>879467
And allegations of fraud are not fraud.

Let's put on our big boy pants for a minute, shall we?

The Jesuits are not called "The Marines of God" for nothing. Their bloody oath is enough to ensure that:

"I furthermore promise and declare that I will, when opportunity presents, make and wage relentless war, secretly or openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do, to extirpate and exterminate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex or condition; and that I will hang, waste, boil, flay, strangle and bury alive these infamous heretics, rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants' heads against the walls, in order to annihilate forever their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly, I will secretly use the poisoned cup, the strangulating cord, the steel of the poniard or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honor, rank, dignity, or authority of the person or persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agent of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Faith, of the Society of Jesus."

Now, would men who swore that oath to God balk at committing a false witness to fraud?

>>879474
I long gave up on showing you the truth, I'm just trying to help others see how stupid everything you say is. though from the looks of it they don't need my help as your already a joke on this board

>>879470
Non of that is Catholic though.

Infancy gospels are non-canon and heretical. Gnosticism was heretical and distinctly unCatholic if you actually look at it and where in any actual official Catholic anything is Mary the 3rd in the Trinity in lieu of the Holy Spirit?

>>879491
ANy proof on that the oath even is true?
And you know, whistle blowers usually bring real evidence for why their claims are true, not just their own story.

>>879413
>Left leg, right leg. Each ruled for a thousand years. Which one is worse?

The one that schismed the church to sure up its political supporters and then heavily innovated and adapted doctrine and dogma until it schismed again before finally reaching a point where holding the values the church had a mere 50 years ago would make you hetrodox.

It is a great insult to the Orthodox Church to speak as though it is just a clone of the Roman Catholic Church.

>>879384
>They think Orthodoxy is just Catholicism in a mask, think it's totally accepting of everything they claim (like that guy ITT claiming Mary isn't the Mother of God), or that they just don't exist.

Its sad how widespread that it is.

>>879491
All you do is spew propaganda that no modern scholar takes seriously, as much as most of them dislike the Catholic church.

Its no more valid that the anti-Semitic propaganda posted on /pol/.

>>879428
>Crowing a king
>Rulling over a king
Are you retarded perhaps?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_IV,_Holy_Roman_Emperor