Lets talk about Weimar Germany.

>>872655
I think it was too much of a shock to the German people. They should have been eased into liberal democracy, not just thrown into in chaos

>>872655
>why do people pay so very little attention the era, with its democratic and social freedoms combined with vibrant pluralistic politics?
Cause Nazi elites were still in charge and paved the way for the 3rd Reich.

Also the golden era you are referring too didn't start before 1923 and didn't last longer then then 1929. +the vibrant culture you described was and sometimes still is perceived as a sign superficiality, degeneracy and Americanization.

>>872674
>Cause Nazi elites
Woops I meant imperial elites.

It was completely opposite of traditional German culture. Even today 20% of Germans would like to see the monarchy come back

>>872674
Yeah, thats fair, but there were still serious political and governmental changes from 1920-33. I mean, Stresemann and his party were distinctly not imperial elites, and the rise of the KPD/SPD was something that never would have been tolerated in the Reich.

> +the vibrant culture you described was and sometimes still is perceived as a sign superficiality, degeneracy and Americanization.

Most people wouldn't agree with that today, though. I understand that just like in the United States, most Germans found the "New Woman" and the phenomenon of expressionism/irony/an "employee" class pretty distasteful and exclusively urban cultural sickness. However, what I'm talking about is the collective memory of the period outside of Germany - most Americans are only familiar with the Weimar period passingly (pretty much just familiar images of the inflation) and I think the notion that Germany was somehow "primed" for Nazism due to cultural characteristics really clashes with what you see happening in Berlin/Frankfurt/Hamburg/Weimar during the Republican years.

>>872700
I'm curious why you say this, though. Traditional German culture was expressed in Republican, urban values in tons of ways. Some of Lang's most successful films were adaptations of foundational German myths, and the Prussian affinity for ordered militarism certainly expressed itself in the Reichsbanner/Stalhelm/etc and so on.

I'm not German and this isn't my area of expertise, but I think it seems a little unfair to pretend that Republican culture is totally contradictory to the basic characteristics of German-ness.

Feminism, degeneracy, crime and drug use were rampant. It was shit, same as the roaring 20s in the US.

>>872702
>Stresemann
Yeah and look what happened to him. Also he was part of the political elite although not very successful.
When I say elite I mostly refers to the military, the juristic system and the industry. Those people were highly conservative and hated what was going on.
>Most people wouldn't agree with that today, though.
No idea about the states but in Germany the "Die Goldenen Zwanziger" is mostly a projection screen for a time when Germany didn't seem fucked. It disregards the civil war like fights that never really ceased.

>>872700
>Even today 20% of Germans would like to see the monarchy come back
>[citation needed]
I would say it's more like 57.92% of Germans think you are a liar.

The Weimar Republic was a complete mess.

One in three of the labor force was out of work, beggars everywhere, inflation on every product, lots of people forced into prostitution, porn and drugs on every corner, etc.

Any romanticization of the shithole that was Weimar Germany is revisionism for the sake of denazification.

>>872737
>people still not differentiating between Weimar pre and post Great deppression

>>872730
>When I say elite I mostly refers to the military, the juristic system and the industry. Those people were highly conservative and hated what was going on.

True that. But they weren't particularly capable of effecting it, since only Hitler was really able to put a stop to the burgeoning culture that emerged in the '20s, and that was only with pretty heavy-handed measures that sent most of the avante-garde into exile. While you're totally right that the entrenched, deep-state elite were unsympathetic, the massive cultural shift manifested itself in different spheres than those were they were influential.

That isn't to imply there wasn't a majority group of conservative traditional Germans opposed to Republicanism and cultural Liberalism, but I feel like you're downplaying the significance of Weimar culture a little bit, perhaps.

>No idea about the states but in Germany the "Die Goldenen Zwanziger" is mostly a projection screen for a time when Germany didn't seem fucked

Well, in the states the term "weimar" would mean nothing to 90% of people, but those of us who study history at the graduate level think of it as a fascinating, fractious time and I have personally been taught that it is an insight into the nature of German modernity on the eve of its appropriation by Nazism that goes unrecognized because of an anti-German narrative.

>It disregards the civil war like fights that never really ceased.

Really? People don't talk about the riots, inflation, breadlines, and social strife that characterized 18-22 and 29-33? That those existed side-by-side with a world that isn't too unfamiliar to modern eyes is what makes me so interested in the Weimar period - it was just so contrasted.

>>872737
The Weimar Republic between 1921-22 and 1929 wasn't a particularly depressed place, though there still tons of impoverished people. The more I study, actually, the more struck I am by the similiarity between the 1920s in US urban centers and in Germany where things were, to use a cliched term, "roaring".

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>>872737
Stop making shit up.

>>872728
It's a shame you're willing to dismiss the huge and fascinating art movements of the '20s as mere "degeneracy".

>>872767
Expressionist film movements were good, but the music was pretty much unmitigated degeneracy. On a related note I don't understand how jazz can be considered snobby high form of art nowadays, that shit is a straight up disaster.

>>872751
>True that. But they weren't particularly capable of effecting it, since only Hitler was really able to put a stop to the burgeoning culture that emerged in the '20s, and that was only with pretty heavy-handed measures that sent most of the avante-garde into exile. While you're totally right that the entrenched, deep-state elite were unsympathetic, the massive cultural shift manifested itself in different spheres than those were they were influential.
Hm, no. Those fucks pretty much stopped the revolution together with the SPD (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stinnes-Legien-Abkommen). Since you seem interested in the stuff I recommend Döblin's November 1918. I read it when I was in school and loved it.
I think the cultural shift you are asserting is part of this political development: in lieu of changing the political reality people just went full force hedonistic or intellectual.
>Really? People don't talk about the riots, inflation, breadlines, and social strife that characterized 18-22 and 29-33?
Well it depends on what you consider having an impact. Violence was (at least in Berlin) always prevalent between communists and (proto-)Nazis. Pretty much every political development lead to different crowds clashing in the streets.
Having said this 29-33 and 18-22 were far worse in that regard.

>>872767
It's your fault. You mentioned Frankfurt and Kracauer so obviously this will attract some flies. I bet the guy doesn'T even know Mieg and Ravel, let alone Schoenberg.

>>872782
Why is Jazz a disaster?

>>872786
>Hm, no. Those fucks pretty much stopped the revolution together with the SPD (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stinnes-Legien-Abkommen)

They stopped the political revolution that would have imposed pretty radical socialist reforms, but what I meant is despite the distaste they felt, they weren't able to stop the proliferation of new lifestyles, businesses, and art movements that would've been despised before the Republic emerged. Even Hitler couldn't completely suppress the indigenous German cultural movements, he just displaced them for like 20 years.

>Since you seem interested in the stuff I recommend Döblin's November 1918

Thank you! I'll check this out later this week. I am very interested in this stuff and any perspective I can get is absolutely welcome.

>Violence was (at least in Berlin) always prevalent between communists and (proto-)Nazis. Pretty much every political development lead to different crowds clashing in the streets.

Yeah, the professor I've studied most of this under always stressed the sort of perpetual political tension between undemocratic extremes (nazism, communism) that characterized the period, and used it as a segue to preach the merits of liberal democracy, etc etc. His basic assertion is basically that the threat of physical violence subsided during the mid-20s but the psychological effects of such radical ideologies penetrating the body politic persisted whether they manifested violently or not.

>>872795
I'm ashamed to admit I don't know Mieg or Ravel myself. I'm a pretty big novice in terms of Weimar / Frankfurt studies and I'm hoping the graduate seminar I'm signed up for helps me with my ignorance. Do you have any sources on those guys? I am familiar with Schoenberg, he's come up in my classes before, same with Kracauer, who my professor was super dismissive of.

>>872802
Calling Jazz degenerate is a boring Nazi meme.

>>872795
>Ravel
>Weimar Germany

Are you legit brainfucked

>>872808
>They stopped the political revolution that would have imposed pretty radical socialist reforms
That's really open for discussion. Luxemburg was debating with Lenin about the scale of personal freedom in a communist state. I also doubt a post-revolutionary German could have looked like the Russia where 92% of the population were illiterate peasants.

>they weren't able to stop the proliferation of new lifestyles, businesses, and art movements that would've been despised before the Republic emerged. Even Hitler couldn't completely suppress the indigenous German cultural movements, he just displaced them for like 20 years.

Although the Weimar Republic is not really my field I am very skeptical about the scale of movements i.e. I doubt a lot of people outside the urban centers were affected by it. I am also doubtful (to an extend) about their novelty since it might disregard developments that already started in the Kaiserzeit.

>>872839
He was part of the same movement that dominated the classical scene in the 1920's in Germany.

>>872848
Yeah, I think a post-revolutionary Germany would have had distinctly positivist, technicist features intermixed with their socialist policies, especially since rapid modernization wasn't necessary. It's one of my favorite bits of alt-history.

>Although the Weimar Republic is not really my field I am very skeptical about the scale of movements i.e. I doubt a lot of people outside the urban centers were affected by it. I am also doubtful (to an extend) about their novelty since it might disregard developments that already started in the Kaiserzeit.

Yeah, I've always had it stressed to me that the Weimar changes were confined to large urban areas, but that its important to keep in mind Germany had progressed pretty far along the path of urbanization by this time and urban residents represented a significant proportion of the population. Similar to the US, cities were regarded as locii of cultural illness and flagrant flaunting of traditional moral values by many, many people, but there were many others who were ambivalent or embraced the "new" culture."

>their novelty since it might disregard developments that already started in the Kaiserzeit.

This is a very good point that I've never heard anything about. Obviously things don't just spring up out of nowhere, so I wonder if there are any good books or pieces on the continuity between cultural expression in the Reich and later in the Republic.

>>872822
I really just enjoy their music. If I would have to name one dude you should read from that time would probably name Carl Schmitt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Concept_of_the_Political
Or Helmuth Plessner.

>>872867
I've read Carl Schmitt, actually. I read The Concept of the Political and another, shorter work by him last semester. My professor is one of the leading experts on Schmitt so we devoted extra attention to him - dude is so unfairly maligned as a Nazi / Authoritarian. His whole concept of "decisonism" and the failure of democracy in critical moments is absolutely fascinating.

My professor actually spent quite a lot of time with Schmitt in the 70s and 80s before he died, and he tells us all kinds of interesting anecdotes about the dude. Evidently he was very interesting to talk to.

>>872877
Just to add to this, when I first read Schmitt I assumed he was anti-democratic, like Jose Ortega y Gasset, but discovered during our discussion they were both relatively committed defenders of democratic politics, albeit with some serious skepticism.

What do you think of the accusation that Schmitt is partially responsible for the rise of the Nazis because of his assistance in putting together the enabling acts (iirc)?

>>872877
Yeah I can imagine that. Nomos of the Earth is completely fucked up but such an interesting read. Did your prof. really spent time with him? CS was famous for writing letters and a couple of my professors were in his inner circle (of pen pals).
>872864
> wonder if there are any good books or pieces on the continuity between
I mean there must be. The continuity is the discontinuity of the times. Wagner, Kandinsky and Thomas Mann were already active and quite shocking before 1914.

>>872896
>What do you think of the accusation that Schmitt is partially responsible for the rise of the Nazis because of his assistance in putting together the enabling acts (iirc)?
Nothing really. I think academics tend to overestimate the importance of academics (I really liked how he tried to help the Jewish prof Rothfels who lost his seat after the nazis came to power, it's the only time I feel he made a stand).

If you are into the decisonism aspect you could read Mouffe but you probably heard about her already.

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>>872655
They had GOAT paramilitary groups.

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>>872954
>SPD
fuck off
Rotfront! Marx! Lenin! Thälmann!

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>>872954
>>872977
Yes keep fighting like the degenerated novemberverbrecher you are.

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>>872999
Just come to Wedding and say that to my face not online and see what happens.

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>>873014
>Wedding
You mean Buchenwald :^)

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>>873072
E R N S T
R
N
S
T

>>872902
Yeah, my professor spent time with him in his dotage, discussing politics and philosophy (and gently probing his personal history with Nazism, which apparently Schmitt didn't talk about much). I have a seminar with him tomorrow night, if this thread is still up I'll post one of his Schmitt anecdotes.

>>872920
I haven't read any Mouffe, actually. Any particular suggestions as to where I should begin? Decisionism is really interesting because it seems pretty authoritarian from the modern vantage point, but in the context of Weimar politics, faced with the constant anxiety of parliamentary indecision and political failures, I can absolutely see why someone would take the time to create a philosophy predicated on times of exception (like the one Germany seemed to be experiencing in the run up to WWII).

>>873115
Ernst was fucking based. I love the KPD and their rhetoric, though they were (obviously) much less practical than the SPD.

How do you feel about the Austrian civil war? You seem to be a lefty too, and I have to say I draw a great deal of inspiration from the (failed) defense of the Karl Marx-Hof Apartments by the Austrian equivalent of the KPD.

>>872999
didn´t know the swastika was used that early

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>>873373
Swastikas have been used since forever.

>>873373
Swastika was part of the formal iconography of the Nazi party before Hitler even joined, and had volkisch connotations since the late 19th century. The Nazis were trying to channel that association between the symbol of the Swastika and the very Nazi concept of blut-und-boden in the modern era. The early years of Nazism, before Strasser got owned, are actually really interesting. They were completely fringe and absurd before the army sent Hitler to spy on them.

>>873382
I meant in german politics
That pic must be from early 20s by the look of the truck

>>873398
Nazi party was initially formed in 1920, which was when they adopted the Swastika. The actual snappy black/red/white color scheme came later, though, I think.

>>873401
So you are telling me the rise of evil wasn't 100% correct?

>>873451
>never heard of "Rise of Evil"
>google it

Looks like garbage, probably not even worth watching. In my opinion, Ian Kershaw's Hitler biographies really are the decisive works on his life.

>>872954
>>872977
>>872999
>>873014
>>873072
>>873115
>>873072
>>873115

Bump, I desire more posts like these

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>>872977
>>872977
Dr. Meier. Ich bin Preußische Geheimpolizei.

>>873681
I love that uniform. Who is this dude?

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>>873727
Don't know if it's anyone special. They are member of the RFB, the communist paramilitaries.

>>873785
The communist paramilitaries of the period are fascinating to me because they don't seem to be aping or affecting any single aesthetic, whereas the right had the long tradition of German militarism to draw upon. So you end up with this sort of silly pseudo-military hodgepodge of dudes in the Reichsbanner and etc.